Why a running QB gets more protection than a RB

Started by TecnoGenius, July 07, 2024, 07:41:42 AM

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theaardvark

QB's time their slides to maximize yardage.  I QB that is sliding knows he's going to slide steps before he does.  Not going down there is a decision the QB makes to get more yards.

The longer they wait, the more they risk injury.

Not giving Kramdi a pass on this, like a high stick, you have to have control of your body.  But there is no way he was sticking his arm out with the intent to clip Dru in the head.  It is a penalty, and it was unfortunate that Dru was hurt.  But as other posters have mentioned, his helmet was not properly secured, and the unusual angle of the hit popped it off, and quite possibly that was a contributor to the injury.

You want protection, slide earlier.  Go after extra yards at your own peril.

Now, the hit on Streveler was a targeted helmet to helmet on an immobilized player.  After their QB had been injured.  There is no way you can prove it was retribution, but it was retribution.  That deserves a fine, and should have been an ejection.

Kramdi could have been ejected too in the moment, but I don't think it warrants a fine.
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Blue In BC

Quote from: theaardvark on July 09, 2024, 04:13:38 PMQB's time their slides to maximize yardage.  I QB that is sliding knows he's going to slide steps before he does.  Not going down there is a decision the QB makes to get more yards.

The longer they wait, the more they risk injury.

Not giving Kramdi a pass on this, like a high stick, you have to have control of your body.  But there is no way he was sticking his arm out with the intent to clip Dru in the head.  It is a penalty, and it was unfortunate that Dru was hurt.  But as other posters have mentioned, his helmet was not properly secured, and the unusual angle of the hit popped it off, and quite possibly that was a contributor to the injury.

You want protection, slide earlier.  Go after extra yards at your own peril.

Now, the hit on Streveler was a targeted helmet to helmet on an immobilized player.  After their QB had been injured.  There is no way you can prove it was retribution, but it was retribution.  That deserves a fine, and should have been an ejection.

Kramdi could have been ejected too in the moment, but I don't think it warrants a fine.

I don't know that Streveler was targeted with any more malice than a normal tackle. He also slid late and he runs like a bulldozer with a head of steam built up.  For the most part he doesn't slide so a defender is caught in space trying to take down a very aggressive runner.

Do we really think any player will intentionally seek to injure an opponent? I don't believe that.
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ModAdmin

I think a player wouldn't mind hitting, for example, any "star" and knocking him cleanly out of the game.
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Waffler

Quote from: Blue In BC on July 09, 2024, 04:58:41 PMDo we really think any player will intentionally seek to injure an opponent? I don't believe that.

Tell Joe Kapp that.
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Blue In BC

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Jesse

Quote from: theaardvark on July 09, 2024, 04:13:38 PMQB's time their slides to maximize yardage.  I QB that is sliding knows he's going to slide steps before he does.  Not going down there is a decision the QB makes to get more yards.

The longer they wait, the more they risk injury.

Not giving Kramdi a pass on this, like a high stick, you have to have control of your body.  But there is no way he was sticking his arm out with the intent to clip Dru in the head.  It is a penalty, and it was unfortunate that Dru was hurt.  But as other posters have mentioned, his helmet was not properly secured, and the unusual angle of the hit popped it off, and quite possibly that was a contributor to the injury.

You want protection, slide earlier.  Go after extra yards at your own peril.

Now, the hit on Streveler was a targeted helmet to helmet on an immobilized player.  After their QB had been injured.  There is no way you can prove it was retribution, but it was retribution.  That deserves a fine, and should have been an ejection.

Kramdi could have been ejected too in the moment, but I don't think it warrants a fine.

I just can't take you seriously on this, man.

Both hits had the same timing. QB started to slide and player started to tackle in the same instant. Both hit the head. Both were penalties. Both or neither will get a fine. No one should have been ejected.

You are making up intent in your own mind.
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Waffler

Quote from: Blue In BC on July 09, 2024, 09:12:46 PMGot an example that didn't happen 60 years ago?
Well too many to mention really. Philion on Khari still rankles me. This year we had Strev's legs obviously twisted in an attempt to injure.
Buried in the essentially random digits of pi, you can find your eight-digit birthdate. (Is that a wink from God or just a lot of digits?) - David G. Myers
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Everything seems stupid when it fails.  - Fyodor Dostoevsky

TecnoGenius

Quote from: TBURGESS on July 09, 2024, 01:32:16 PMAny player with the ball can give themselves up. It can be a slide or taking a knee or running out of bounds.

When a player gives themselves up, you can't just smoke them. A touch to a down player is enough.

Giving a down player a flipper to the head should be UR at minimum and an ejection at maximum no matter who that player is.

Wrong on the slide part.  No other player can slide; no other play does slide.  The rule book only says "slide" in relation to QBs.  If Brady would try to slide the D's would smoke him, and there would be no penalties.

I can further prove the point by adding that QBs are now allowed to dive forward to give themselves up.  They are supposed to be protected diving forward.  No other player gets that protection.  A WR or RB dives and a D is around, they are going to smoke them (and they do!).  As long as it's inside the whistles and they don't lead with their head, there is never going to be a penalty (unless it's Loffler on Begelton defenseless receiver-type stuff).

The proof against your last point (flippers to the head) is the other 3 games of the same week: RBs and WRs were getting smoked by flippers to the head all over the place (I can get screenshots) and no one cares or bats an eye.  Hits that were far more egregious and late and nasty look to down or going-down players.  Crickets from the refs.
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TecnoGenius

Quote from: Waffler on July 09, 2024, 01:53:01 PMSliding late is worse than not sliding at all. The penalty is just not enough of a deterrent and I don't know what penalty would be. The only solution seems to be slide earlier.

I have an idea that would provide perfect QB protection.

1) QB declares pregame if he wants protection (normal pocket-passer style QBs) or not (Strevie, Cody).

2a) Protected QBs are not allowed to be hit past the LoS.  Any slide or touch by a D player is where the ball is spotted.  So "tag football" past the LoS.  Any hit is 25Y (or more) and instant ejection and fine (in theory it would never happen as everyone would instantly know it was "dirty").

2b) Unprotected QBs are 100% fair game and can be treated exactly like a RB/WR (remove the special "QB-only head protection" rule).

Boom, I solved the entire problem.  The QB can declare differently every game.  So Zach would clearly choose the protection, except maybe in the GC he may want the option to risk hits on a run (even then...).

This would remove the problem of QBs not sliding soon enough: where he would normally slide he'd just keep running and D guys just have to tag him.  This would fix all ambiguities.  If needed, command can review potential tags to make sure he was touched.

I don't think this would detract from the game at all.  We all know what QBs should not be taking hits (Zach, Trevor), and ones that can chance it.  Imagine if we could have Zach scramble up the gut for 2nd & 7 and know for a fact the whole time he will not get concussed!  Sign me up!

Ambrosie, call up my agent, my idea will be $1M please!
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TecnoGenius

Quote from: Blue In BC on July 09, 2024, 01:56:35 PMI wonder whether a penalty would have been called / should have been called if Brown's helmet didn't come off, or he just bounced up and returned to the huddle?

That's my "writhing" theory.  Hurt or not, you writhe a bit and take your time (especially if it's now 3rd down), as there is no downside.

100% Dru's helmet sliding off caused the 2 refs to throw their flags right away.  Without that they may have thought about it for a few seconds.  With the helmet off they're thinking "well, he took a head hit or the helmet wouldn't be off".

Compare with Strev, no helmet off, bounced back up like nothing ever happened.  No flag and command has to think about it for 4 mins even though, according to command, it was a far worse penalty (grade 2)!
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TecnoGenius

Quote from: Blue In BC on July 09, 2024, 04:58:41 PMDo we really think any player will intentionally seek to injure an opponent? I don't believe that.

Uh.  You haven't watched the game much?  You do what appears to be a dirty hit on the opponent, and worse yet, take their star out of the game??  Ya, not only is the hitter going to get targeted, but the same-position star player on the other team will as well, and even every player in general.

OTT amped up the hits and energy after that, no doubt about it.

It's human nature: someone hurts one of your brothers, you're going to be steaming.
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TecnoGenius

Quote from: ModAdmin on July 09, 2024, 08:48:12 PMI think a player wouldn't mind hitting, for example, any "star" and knocking him cleanly out of the game.

100%.  Players lay a big borderline hit and take a star out of the game, they are quietly (or not so quietly) high-fiving and fist-bumping each other on the sidelines.  They usually try to keep it on the down-low but I see it all the time on TSN as they cut to players milling around waiting for the cart to take away the wounded guy.

I will note I did not see any of our players celebrating the Dru hit, but a) our team is wired a bit differently, and b) Dru was just recently one of our own and no one wants to see him 6G'd.
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TecnoGenius

Quote from: Jesse on July 09, 2024, 09:15:55 PMI just can't take you seriously on this, man.

Both hits had the same timing. QB started to slide and player started to tackle in the same instant. Both hit the head. Both were penalties. Both or neither will get a fine. No one should have been ejected.

Wrong.  One was flipper-to-head, the other H2H.  H2H is always treated as worse than flipper (flipper is soft and weak, helmet is a solid object!).  Hitting with your head has its own special rules.

That is why the Strev hit was grade-2 spearing, and the other simple RTP.

100% the grade-2 will get a fine.  The RTP: maybe, maybe not.
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TecnoGenius

P.S. Props to Strev.  I go down on the field after every PAS game and often wander to the WFC-autograph corral.  Strev is always there: every single game.  It's rare to the see the same player there twice in one season.  Often the corral is totally empty, like so many players can't be bothered.  Strev comes out every time.
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TecnoGenius

Someone mentioned in the GDT that Dru had a neck injury, not a concussion.  After rewatching, I agree.  The hit and then bounce off the turf is often concussion, but when the trainers were checking him out they were working almost exclusively on neck/vertebrae.  His eyes looked fine and I didn't see any sign of concussion.

However, it could also be both, and certainly precaution wasn't a bad idea.  But a messed up neck can be a lingering thing that dogs him for a couple/few weeks.  Didn't Zach have one a year-ish back?  That said, Dru will probably bounce back after that and continue his progression.
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