Why a running QB gets more protection than a RB

[TecnoGenius]

It irks me that a running QB appears to get more ref protection than a RB does.

But I just found the "loophole" in the rulebook that makes it so... Article 5 Roughing the Passer has a part (g) that has not been written so as to exclude the "running QB" scenario.  And this 5(g) is almost certainly what they are using to penalize Kramdi with RTP.

5(g) says RTP is defined as: Contacting the passer when either the initial or primary source of contact is the defender's helmet.

To me this always meant "when the QB is in the pocket" or "re-established a throwing stance".  I've never really thought of this as applying to any hit to the helmet (from any body part) when he's running 10Y past the LoS!  But yet, as written, that's what it can mean.  And that is clearly how they are giving the QB the protection beyond what a RB receives.

So this is why Kramdi got a RTP call and not UR.

And 5(g) must be new since Zach took that massive CGY sliding hit to the head in 2019(?), because clearly that was also a case of initial/primary contact to the head.

The other possibly applicable rule, the one I first thought of, is the sliding protection, but let's (possibly) debunk that:

5(f) says: Contacting the QB unnecessarily after the QB slides to give them self(sic!) up.  The QB must slide in a timely manner to allow the defenders to avoid such contact.

But as per that I would, and do, argue that Dru slid too late.  Both MOS and Kramdi said they are not sure Kramdi could have humanly reacted in time to the late slide.  Watch on freeze frame slow-mo and you'll see what I mean.  Of course, though, the rule and its on-field reality are entirely subjective to the whims of refs/command.  A hard definition, like "it's legal to hit a sliding QB within 1.5 seconds, as long as it doesn't infringe on any other rule", might be more useful: something objectively measurable.

It would be nice to get clarity from the league whether Kramdi was guilty of 5(f) or 5(g), or both.  And if he's fined, which one he is fined under.

As an aside: there was a massive forearm to the head in the CGY/MTL game where Randle spears Rambo 1Q7:24, but not H2H.  No call on the field, no call from command, everyone just ignores it even though it was a far worse hit than Dru took.  So now we know (5g) why Dru gets a free 15 and the RB is left to suffer in silence.

I guess only the brains of the high-priced QBs are important?

Personally I think 5(g) should be amended to only apply to before the LoS.  If you want to protect the running QB's head past the LoS, then make a rule that applies to every ball carrier.

Lastly, as written, 5(g) should protect a 2nd QB on the field, if they happen to be the ball carrier!  See Article 3 Eligibility Of Passer: "The passer need not be the first player to receive the ball from the centre".  That means if Strev takes a handoff from Zach and runs past the LoS, he should by definition be a "passer", and any initial/primary hit to his head should be RTP!  I really hope in our 2-QB sets we remember this and ask the refs to review any time Strev takes a head hit.  That allows us to get QB protections for "just a RB"!

Even further down the rabbit hole: anyone can be a "passer" (see gadget lateral plays) so these rules are inconsistent and rather lame.  The problem is they don't define "passer" anywhere!  To me that means arguing Strev (or any player) gains protection has just as much merit as saying none of these players (including the QB) is protected past the LoS because they are no longer a "passer"!  I think the NFL takes care of this by having rules about being in the pocket or "re-establishing the pocket".  I think the CFL should define the word "passer" and it should probably exclude any player past the LoS, because by definition they can no longer (forward) pass.

Anyone remember back to the 2019 WDF when Dickenson asked the league to clarify that they can beat on a past-the-LoS-Strev just the same as they beat on every other RB?  Ya, league said go for it.  What has changed since then?

[TBURGESS]

To me, QB's lose the protection when they run because the rule specifically states:

Article 5 – Roughing the Passer

Because the act of passing puts the passer in a particularly vulnerable position to injury, special rules against roughing the passer apply. Once the ball is released, defensive players must avoid all unnecessary contact with the passer. A player shall be penalized for any act of Unnecessary Roughness to the passer, including but not limited to:

When QB's are running they are not in the act of passing, nor in a particularly vulnerable position, so that rule shouldn't apply.

[Pete]

Qbs are so integral ti the entertainment value of the league they and I believe rightfully so they should receive extra protection
Which is why they are able to slide down and be ruled down without having contact. The thing is if they dont then they are fair game (other than head contact, and that has to be stricter because of their value to team defenders target them more often)
What we saw a lot of this weekend was qbs sliding at the last moment. If a defender has already started his tackling motion it should not be a penalty . The qb should have a responsibility to slide earlier. The league has to put team qbs on notice if they want the protection it cant be in the midst of being tackled
Right now some are doing it to draw penalties. There also seems to be disparity in who the qb is as to how rtp is called ie Streveler vs Fajardo.

[TecnoGenius]

To me, QB's lose the protection when they run because the rule specifically states:

When QB's are running they are not in the act of passing, nor in a particularly vulnerable position, so that rule shouldn't apply.

Then the Kramdi hit should not be a penalty, because I saw many different carriers in the CGY game getting blown up in the same way, but worse, and no flags.

The league interpretation at the moment certainly is that the special "QB head" rule does apply even when the QB is running.  But perhaps the rules could use a good disambiguating... (What is a "passer"?  Do the special protections disappear past the LoS?  Just spell it out!)

This is one of those rare instances where the NFL's rules are better than ours.  Maybe our NFL fan members can fill us in on the details.

[TecnoGenius]

Qbs are so integral ti the entertainment value of the league they and I believe rightfully so they should receive extra protection
Which is why they are able to slide down and be ruled down without having contact. The thing is if they dont then they are fair game (other than head contact, and that has to be stricter because of their value to team defenders target them more often)

So is highest-paid RB Brady any less integral to the "entertainment value of the league", or worth any less $?  Well, I guess the answers are "a bit, yes" and "certainly yes, but still highly paid".  And Brady gets no protection at all.

Maybe what happened is when these specific rules were being added it was around that year or two of QB armageddon where 8/9ths of the QBs got injured.  Maybe it was a gut-level over-reaction to try to stem the bleeding, instead of something being well thought out and consistent.

There also seems to be disparity in who the qb is as to how rtp is called ie Streveler vs Fajardo.

100%.  I think there are 4 levels of QBs:

1. Pocket-only passers like Zach, Trevor, Dru, Maier, MBT, BLM
2. Pocket-mostly but very mobile QBs like Cody, VAJ, Kelly, Rourke
3. Run-often but slight/wimpy QBs like Tre Ford, Dukes
4. Run-mostly and bruising/punishing QBs like Strev

The farther you are down that list, the less it seems the refs protect you with flags.  If you're the wimpy "woe is me" QB they throw those flags on nearly any hit.  And then there's Strev who is basically Stanback or Messam but who can throw, and the refs don't care if you take hits because half the time you're the one laying on the wood!

So is that fair or consistent?

Again, back to Dickenson in 2019 "so we can beat up Strev like a RB, right?  Right".

Sometimes it feels like the rule really is "don't hurt the fragile guys, if you hurt them you will get flagged", but "if you're a running QB plowing guys over, you're on your own".

And I'm not even taking a side here: after all, our QB is concussion-prone Zach, who I do want to see protected.  However, Zach also almost never runs, so we don't really need the protection, and the times he has run he often gets trucked anyhow because he slides too late.

[Jesse]

To me, QB's lose the protection when they run because the rule specifically states:

When QB's are running they are not in the act of passing, nor in a particularly vulnerable position, so that rule shouldn't apply.

I'm not 100 on how the rule is written, but the act of sliding also puts them in a vulnerable position.

It is, with no question, and unfair rule. We got an absolute bogus penalty when Crum fell down on the sidelines. And the very next play Suitor was all superior about how the penalty was justified because our player disengaged contact before the sideline instead of maintaining contact through the line. But what if Crum took that opportunity and ran up the field?

The league is saying that they care less about the integrity of the game in those few instances where someone like Crum can take advantage than they do about keeping passers healthy.

And I'd almost be fine with that, but these rules are so inconsistently applied. We have Zach missing games on illegal hits not called seemingly every year. Remember him losing it on the refs last year? It's hard to take when someone gets a softy call like Crum.

[theaardvark]

Does he retain "passer" status if he hook slides?  Can only QB's hook slide. or can any player "surrender"?

I think it was primary contact to the head. Should have been UR, not RTP.

[Throw Long Bannatyne]

I'm not 100 on how the rule is written, but the act of sliding also puts them in a vulnerable position.

It is, with no question, and unfair rule. We got an absolute bogus penalty when Crum fell down on the sidelines. And the very next play Suitor was all superior about how the penalty was justified because our player disengaged contact before the sideline instead of maintaining contact through the line. But what if Crum took that opportunity and ran up the field?

The league is saying that they care less about the integrity of the game in those few instances where someone like Crum can take advantage than they do about keeping passers healthy.

And I'd almost be fine with that, but these rules are so inconsistently applied. We have Zach missing games on illegal hits not called seemingly every year. Remember him losing it on the refs last year? It's hard to take when someone gets a softy call like Crum.

Crum doesn't slide, wrong guy to use as an example.  I never liked the rule in the first place, it encourages a QB who likes to run like Fajardo the freedom to steal easy yards at will and never pay the price for running.last game he ran 4/35 and slid or ran out of bounds everytime.

I guess with the protection provided under the rules it is a smart football play and Strev. should consider doing it more often, if for no reason to preserve his health for future games.

[Throw Long Bannatyne]

Does he retain "passer" status if he hook slides?  Can only QB's hook slide. or can any player "surrender"?

I think it was primary contact to the head. Should have been UR, not RTP.

I hope Strev's success running doesn't influence Zach to take more chances running the ball himself, especially in desperate 3rd down situations.  Saw it before when Buck was traded to BC and Lulay started to imitate his recklessness with bad results that needlessly hastened the end of his career.

[TecnoGenius]

Does he retain "passer" status if he hook slides?  Can only QB's hook slide. or can any player "surrender"?

Since the rulebook doesn't define "passer", your guess is as good as mine!!

The word SLIDE is only used in the rulebook in reference to QBs, K and P.  That's it.  No other player can slide.  However, any player can go fetal and is supposed to gain protection ("giving themselves up").  And returners can take a knee.

I think it was primary contact to the head. Should have been UR, not RTP.

But there is no rule under UR for "primary contact to the head" using body parts other than your helmet.  You can "primary contact to the head" with your arms, chest, knees a RB all you want, and Ds do it every few snaps.  As long as you don't use your helmet as the weapon, it's all good.

That is why it wasn't called UR.  The only foul falls under the special RTP rules.  Only "passers" get them -- whatever a "passer" is.

[TecnoGenius]

I hope Strev's success running doesn't influence Zach to take more chances running the ball himself, especially in desperate 3rd down situations.

Ya, like MBT in the last game?  Didn't he fly 5 feet in the air on a mad run up the gut and a brutal tackle?  Ya, definitely don't want to see Zach do that.  MBT is a crazy nutjob who can handle it... Zach, not so much!

[TecnoGenius]

Thought experiment:

If Dru doesn't slide but the exact same hit happens: does Kramdi still get the flag? 

I say:
According to all the above the answer is: yes.  Because the (arguably late) slide had nothing to do with the flag: it was just about the arm-to-head hit.

[TBURGESS]

Any player with the ball can give themselves up. It can be a slide or taking a knee or running out of bounds. 

When a player gives themselves up, you can't just smoke them. A touch to a down player is enough. 

Giving a down player a flipper to the head should be UR at minimum and an ejection at maximum no matter who that player is. 

[Waffler]

I find it highly ironic that a "safety" measure has led to the injury of so many QB's. No one to blame but themselves though, feeling they can sneak an extra yard or two. Sliding late is worse than not sliding at all. The penalty is just not enough of a deterrent and I don't know what penalty would be. The only solution seems to be slide earlier.

[Blue In BC]

Thought experiment:

If Dru doesn't slide but the exact same hit happens: does Kramdi still get the flag? 

I say:
According to all the above the answer is: yes.  Because the (arguably late) slide had nothing to do with the flag: it was just about the arm-to-head hit.

There is no disagreement that Kramdi's arm made contact with Brown's head and it was a penalty. That said, Kramdi had to dive over the late sliding QB.

Think about a player diving over another player. His arms aren't going to out sideways horizontally. It will be across his body because that will be the 1st thing that hits the ground on the other side. To some degree he's protecting himself as best he can.

I don't believe Kramdi had intent and he didn't drive his forearm into Brown's helmet. Still a penalty but there is a difference in a forceful blow ( with or without intent ) and a contact blow.

We've seen forceful blows on players that could justify an ejection or fine. This wasn't that. To some degree once Kramdi commits there is only so much control he has left.

Brown's helmet came off when Kramdi's body slide over top of him. I didn't get the impression it was due to the forearm making contact. It also appeared that the chinstrap was too loose and that didn't help the perception.

I agree with the post above from Waffler that the QB's need to slide earlier and the irony of injuries that result in not doing so.

I wonder whether a penalty would have been called / should have been called if Brown's helmet didn't come off, or he just bounced up and returned to the huddle?