Why a running QB gets more protection than a RB

Started by TecnoGenius, July 07, 2024, 07:41:42 AM

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TBURGESS

Quote from: TecnoGenius on July 10, 2024, 04:43:30 AMWrong on the slide part.  No other player can slide; no other play does slide.  The rule book only says "slide" in relation to QBs.  If Brady would try to slide the D's would smoke him, and there would be no penalties.

I can further prove the point by adding that QBs are now allowed to dive forward to give themselves up.  They are supposed to be protected diving forward.  No other player gets that protection.  A WR or RB dives and a D is around, they are going to smoke them (and they do!).  As long as it's inside the whistles and they don't lead with their head, there is never going to be a penalty (unless it's Loffler on Begelton defenseless receiver-type stuff).

The proof against your last point (flippers to the head) is the other 3 games of the same week: RBs and WRs were getting smoked by flippers to the head all over the place (I can get screenshots) and no one cares or bats an eye.  Hits that were far more egregious and late and nasty look to down or going-down players.  Crickets from the refs.

A slide is by definition giving yourself up. If Brady were to slide and a player nailed him in the head with a flipper, there would be a penalty.

Are any of the flipper to head shots you can screenshot against players already on the ground? If so, then they should have been penalties. If not, you're comparing apples to oranges. 
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Sir Blue and Gold

#31
Quote from: TBURGESS on July 10, 2024, 02:56:34 PMA slide is by definition giving yourself up. If Brady were to slide and a player nailed him in the head with a flipper, there would be a penalty.

Are any of the flipper to head shots you can screenshot against players already on the ground? If so, then they should have been penalties. If not, you're comparing apples to oranges.

So there is a nuance here in that the rules specifically protect quarterbacks who slide. When a quarterback slides there can be NO contact. None. Any contact should result in a 15 yard penalty and the onus is on the tackler to avoid contact.

If any other position "slides" they are not afforded that level of protection. Other penalties could still apply: spearing defined as using the top of the helmet as "the primary point of contact" to deliver a blow, delivering a blow to the head or neck area, etc, but contact can still be made to a sliding running back and in practice, it's a different level of force that would need to take place to get that flag.

theaardvark

The big question in any "late hit" is "Can the hitter reasonably avoid/reduce contact, and did they attempt that".

No attempt to avoid = headhunting.  25 yd Penalty and ejection.

If they try to avoid contact but cannot (in the air, other player in the way), and the tackle was started per-surrender, then maybe a 10 yarder. 

There was at least one instance this weekend where a DB was coming into a hit on the QB who slid, and the DB launched over the QB to avoid contact and smoked his own teammate.  It's not really a tough thing to do.

I rewatched the game and the two hits

Kramdi's "flipper" did not seem to be targeting as much as prepping for his own crash to the ground.  That it intersected the path of Dru's head did not seem intentional, and he showed immediate remorse and concern for his former teammate, and went to MOS to discuss it. 

Harris's hit on Streveler was head on, helmet and hand first, and could have been easily avoided/deflected had he chosen to.  He launched bucket first at Streveler.  He could have planted his hand on Streveler's chest and gone over, but he leaned in with his helmet. And then immediately got nose to nose with Lofton "discussing" the hit.  No hands up moving back, "I'm sorry", but rather an in your face "Yeah, whatcha gonna do about it" with Lofton. 

They were two completely different plays, and while the outcomes for the QB's are reversed of what you would think, the penalties on the field more reflect the infractions. 

Not saying Dru is not as tough as Streveler, but I think Dru will be wearing better adjusted head protection going forward.  Streve is a tank used to hitting and getting hit.

Penalties and fines should not be based on the outcomes, but rather on the actions. We will see if the league gets this right when the disciplinary actions are handed out for week 6.
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TBURGESS

Kramdi doesn't try to avoid contact. He initiates it with his forearm. To me, that's intent. 
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blue_gold_84

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What a wretched timeline.

Throw Long Bannatyne

Quote from: TecnoGenius on July 10, 2024, 05:06:23 AM100%.  Players lay a big borderline hit and take a star out of the game, they are quietly (or not so quietly) high-fiving and fist-bumping each other on the sidelines.  They usually try to keep it on the down-low but I see it all the time on TSN as they cut to players milling around waiting for the cart to take away the wounded guy.

I will note I did not see any of our players celebrating the Dru hit, but a) our team is wired a bit differently, and b) Dru was just recently one of our own and no one wants to see him 6G'd.

Interesting comments from O'Shea in yesterday's press conference, he said he pulled Kramdi off the field immediately after the hit so there would be no further interactions that cost them more penalty yards.  He also said Kramdi was a bit of a ***** and he liked that about him along with his intelligence and flexibility to play multiple positions, he referred to him as invaluable.

theaardvark

Unabashed positron.  Blue koolaid in my fridge.  I wear my blue sunglasses at night.  Homer, d'oh.

J5V

Quote from: theaardvark on July 10, 2024, 03:56:12 PMThe big question in any "late hit" is "Can the hitter reasonably avoid/reduce contact, and did they attempt that".

No attempt to avoid = headhunting.  25 yd Penalty and ejection.

If they try to avoid contact but cannot (in the air, other player in the way), and the tackle was started per-surrender, then maybe a 10 yarder. 

There was at least one instance this weekend where a DB was coming into a hit on the QB who slid, and the DB launched over the QB to avoid contact and smoked his own teammate.  It's not really a tough thing to do.

I rewatched the game and the two hits

Kramdi's "flipper" did not seem to be targeting as much as prepping for his own crash to the ground.  That it intersected the path of Dru's head did not seem intentional, and he showed immediate remorse and concern for his former teammate, and went to MOS to discuss it. 

Harris's hit on Streveler was head on, helmet and hand first, and could have been easily avoided/deflected had he chosen to.  He launched bucket first at Streveler.  He could have planted his hand on Streveler's chest and gone over, but he leaned in with his helmet. And then immediately got nose to nose with Lofton "discussing" the hit.  No hands up moving back, "I'm sorry", but rather an in your face "Yeah, whatcha gonna do about it" with Lofton. 

They were two completely different plays, and while the outcomes for the QB's are reversed of what you would think, the penalties on the field more reflect the infractions. 

Not saying Dru is not as tough as Streveler, but I think Dru will be wearing better adjusted head protection going forward.  Streve is a tank used to hitting and getting hit.

Penalties and fines should not be based on the outcomes, but rather on the actions. We will see if the league gets this right when the disciplinary actions are handed out for week 6.
I largely agree with your description of events. Dru slid very late -- too late IMO because he was trying to grab first down field position. Kramdi was fully committed by the time Dru slid and a collision was inevitable. The only part of Kramdi's hit I didn't like was that he knew there was going to be a collision and he strafed Dru with his arm/elbow with enough force to remove the helmet. For that he deserved his penalty. Had he used his arms to soften the blow instead he may very well have been given the benefit of the doubt.
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TecnoGenius

Quote from: TBURGESS on July 10, 2024, 02:56:34 PMA slide is by definition giving yourself up. If Brady were to slide and a player nailed him in the head with a flipper, there would be a penalty.

Brady would never slide.  No non-QB player ever slides.  Ever.  Returners take a knee, sure.  Sometimes during "hook and ladder" or an INT in the EZ a player will just crumple to the ground fetal to end the play.  But never do they slide.  So it's hard to discuss this issue and all we have to go by is the rulebook.

And the rulebook only mentions slide in relation to QBs.  Therefore any special sliding-only protection is only afforded to QBs.

Now, if you're talking about protection in general for a player "giving themselves up", sure there are rules for that.  If a guy goes fetal, which we do see, then he is afforded some protection (though people often still "tackle" them without penalty).  Your supposition depends upon the refs deciding a sliding WR/RB counts as "giving themselves up" even though it's not in the rules per se.

An aspect to consider is that the Rule 10 Article 3 "spot review" says that sliding-spots (where to put the sticks) are unique to the passer.  If you allow for WR/RB to slide, then where is the spot?  The rulebook is silent.  If a WR/RB were to slide and a D guy not hit him, he would get a more favorable spot than a QB doing the same slide!  Because by rule the QB's spot is moved back to where he initiated the slide, but no such rule exists for non-QBs.

In sum: discussing sliding for non-QB players is pointless since it never happens and there are no special rules for it.

Quote from: TBURGESS on July 10, 2024, 02:56:34 PMAre any of the flipper to head shots you can screenshot against players already on the ground? If so, then they should have been penalties. If not, you're comparing apples to oranges.

Yes, many flipper to the head shots for players already on or close to the ground (usually RBs) in basically every game in the CFL.  Yes, I can find you an example from last week's games, though it may take me a bit of work since I didn't document the times and will have to rewatch.  The SSK and MTL games had many, I think, so I'll start there.  No, there were (and are) never any flags.  By rule, special head protection only exists for QBs (except for leading-helmet hits).

Remember, we're not talking about what we "want", we're talking about what "is".  I'm not saying I like it, I'm just noting the inconsistency in how they call the same action depending on what position the whacked player plays.
Never go full Rider!

TecnoGenius

Quote from: Sir Blue and Gold on July 10, 2024, 03:35:36 PMIf any other position "slides" they are not afforded that level of protection. Other penalties could still apply: spearing defined as using the top of the helmet as "the primary point of contact" to deliver a blow, delivering a blow to the head or neck area, etc, but contact can still be made to a sliding running back and in practice, it's a different level of force that would need to take place to get that flag.

100% you nailed it.  100% correct.  I think this strange rule situation came about because originally everyone was fair game (think: the 80's).  But as more QBs kept getting creamed and 6-gamed the CFL was reactionary and tried to patch the rules specifically to fix the problem at hand.  Thus we have the low (but slowly increasing) protection for WR/RBs and the high (and getting higher) protection for QBs.
Never go full Rider!

TecnoGenius

Quote from: blue_gold_84 on July 10, 2024, 04:13:50 PMRedBlacks QB Brown placed in concussion protocol yesterday

So much for my theory!  My gut instinct in-game was right all along.  Funny, because his head doesn't take whacks that look too big / hard / fast.  But I think it was a side-to-side and double-hit movement that made it worse... those always are worse than one single bang straight to the forehead.

Dru kind of got unlucky.  He also may have a predisposition to being concussion prone, like Zach was earlier in his career.  I hope Dru gets better soon as we all like to watch his development.
Never go full Rider!

TecnoGenius

Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on July 10, 2024, 06:53:10 PMInteresting comments from O'Shea in yesterday's press conference, he said he pulled Kramdi off the field immediately after the hit so there would be no further interactions that cost them more penalty yards.  He also said Kramdi was a bit of a ***** and he liked that about him along with his intelligence and flexibility to play multiple positions, he referred to him as invaluable.

Listen again.  My take was he said he does not immediately pull players off the field, and didn't for Kramdi.  It was at a later time when Kramdi was starting to get heated with the OTT guys that he pulled him.  He seemed to want to make a distinction.

It's an important interview to get people (including me) to understand why we are starting Kramdi.  He basically said the whole D may be in a major bind (my words) without Kramdi, like he's the linchpin.  Very interesting.

And I love how sometimes MOS will let a "can't say that word!" word fly in pressers.  I'm not sure I've ever seen a CFL coach use the word he used!  Even better, MOS meant it as a compliment!  Haha.  Great stuff.  I bet some pundit eyeballs were popping out right at that moment.
Never go full Rider!

TecnoGenius

Quote from: TBURGESS on July 10, 2024, 02:56:34 PMAre any of the flipper to head shots you can screenshot against players already on the ground? If so, then they should have been penalties. If not, you're comparing apples to oranges.

Trying to muster them up now.  Here's the first one in the CGY@MTL game 1Q7:28.  Really egregious and nasty, dude was laying prone for quite a while.  No flag, and command had plenty of time to step in because another CGY player earlier in the tackle got injured causing an injury timeout.  But they didn't, because WR and RBs do not get any head protection like QBs do.


Never go full Rider!

Throw Long Bannatyne

Quote from: TecnoGenius on July 11, 2024, 04:07:15 AMTrying to muster them up now.  Here's the first one in the CGY@MTL game 1Q7:28.  Really egregious and nasty, dude was laying prone for quite a while.  No flag, and command had plenty of time to step in because another CGY player earlier in the tackle got injured causing an injury timeout.  But they didn't, because WR and RBs do not get any head protection like QBs do.




It wouldn't surprise me if that was Awe.

TecnoGenius

Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on July 11, 2024, 05:07:12 AMIt wouldn't surprise me if that was Awe.

Reasonable guess but for once Awe was innocent.  It was CGY's Randle (other side HB).  On MTL's Rambo.  They said after Rambo 6'1 177lb... so that hit's gotta hurt!
Never go full Rider!