Why a running QB gets more protection than a RB

Started by TecnoGenius, July 07, 2024, 07:41:42 AM

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TecnoGenius

It irks me that a running QB appears to get more ref protection than a RB does.

But I just found the "loophole" in the rulebook that makes it so... Article 5 Roughing the Passer has a part (g) that has not been written so as to exclude the "running QB" scenario.  And this 5(g) is almost certainly what they are using to penalize Kramdi with RTP.

5(g) says RTP is defined as: Contacting the passer when either the initial or primary source of contact is the defender's helmet.

To me this always meant "when the QB is in the pocket" or "re-established a throwing stance".  I've never really thought of this as applying to any hit to the helmet (from any body part) when he's running 10Y past the LoS!  But yet, as written, that's what it can mean.  And that is clearly how they are giving the QB the protection beyond what a RB receives.

So this is why Kramdi got a RTP call and not UR.

And 5(g) must be new since Zach took that massive CGY sliding hit to the head in 2019(?), because clearly that was also a case of initial/primary contact to the head.

The other possibly applicable rule, the one I first thought of, is the sliding protection, but let's (possibly) debunk that:

5(f) says: Contacting the QB unnecessarily after the QB slides to give them self(sic!) up.  The QB must slide in a timely manner to allow the defenders to avoid such contact.

But as per that I would, and do, argue that Dru slid too late.  Both MOS and Kramdi said they are not sure Kramdi could have humanly reacted in time to the late slide.  Watch on freeze frame slow-mo and you'll see what I mean.  Of course, though, the rule and its on-field reality are entirely subjective to the whims of refs/command.  A hard definition, like "it's legal to hit a sliding QB within 1.5 seconds, as long as it doesn't infringe on any other rule", might be more useful: something objectively measurable.

It would be nice to get clarity from the league whether Kramdi was guilty of 5(f) or 5(g), or both.  And if he's fined, which one he is fined under.

As an aside: there was a massive forearm to the head in the CGY/MTL game where Randle spears Rambo 1Q7:24, but not H2H.  No call on the field, no call from command, everyone just ignores it even though it was a far worse hit than Dru took.  So now we know (5g) why Dru gets a free 15 and the RB is left to suffer in silence.

I guess only the brains of the high-priced QBs are important?

Personally I think 5(g) should be amended to only apply to before the LoS.  If you want to protect the running QB's head past the LoS, then make a rule that applies to every ball carrier.

Lastly, as written, 5(g) should protect a 2nd QB on the field, if they happen to be the ball carrier!  See Article 3 Eligibility Of Passer: "The passer need not be the first player to receive the ball from the centre".  That means if Strev takes a handoff from Zach and runs past the LoS, he should by definition be a "passer", and any initial/primary hit to his head should be RTP!  I really hope in our 2-QB sets we remember this and ask the refs to review any time Strev takes a head hit.  That allows us to get QB protections for "just a RB"!

Even further down the rabbit hole: anyone can be a "passer" (see gadget lateral plays) so these rules are inconsistent and rather lame.  The problem is they don't define "passer" anywhere!  To me that means arguing Strev (or any player) gains protection has just as much merit as saying none of these players (including the QB) is protected past the LoS because they are no longer a "passer"!  I think the NFL takes care of this by having rules about being in the pocket or "re-establishing the pocket".  I think the CFL should define the word "passer" and it should probably exclude any player past the LoS, because by definition they can no longer (forward) pass.

Anyone remember back to the 2019 WDF when Dickenson asked the league to clarify that they can beat on a past-the-LoS-Strev just the same as they beat on every other RB?  Ya, league said go for it.  What has changed since then?
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TBURGESS

To me, QB's lose the protection when they run because the rule specifically states:

QuoteArticle 5 – Roughing the Passer

Because the act of passing puts the passer in a particularly vulnerable position to injury, special rules against roughing the passer apply. Once the ball is released, defensive players must avoid all unnecessary contact with the passer. A player shall be penalized for any act of Unnecessary Roughness to the passer, including but not limited to:

When QB's are running they are not in the act of passing, nor in a particularly vulnerable position, so that rule shouldn't apply.
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Pete

Qbs are so integral ti the entertainment value of the league they and I believe rightfully so they should receive extra protection
Which is why they are able to slide down and be ruled down without having contact. The thing is if they dont then they are fair game (other than head contact, and that has to be stricter because of their value to team defenders target them more often)
What we saw a lot of this weekend was qbs sliding at the last moment. If a defender has already started his tackling motion it should not be a penalty . The qb should have a responsibility to slide earlier. The league has to put team qbs on notice if they want the protection it cant be in the midst of being tackled
Right now some are doing it to draw penalties. There also seems to be disparity in who the qb is as to how rtp is called ie Streveler vs Fajardo.



TecnoGenius

Quote from: TBURGESS on July 07, 2024, 02:49:24 PMTo me, QB's lose the protection when they run because the rule specifically states:

When QB's are running they are not in the act of passing, nor in a particularly vulnerable position, so that rule shouldn't apply.

Then the Kramdi hit should not be a penalty, because I saw many different carriers in the CGY game getting blown up in the same way, but worse, and no flags.

The league interpretation at the moment certainly is that the special "QB head" rule does apply even when the QB is running.  But perhaps the rules could use a good disambiguating... (What is a "passer"?  Do the special protections disappear past the LoS?  Just spell it out!)

This is one of those rare instances where the NFL's rules are better than ours.  Maybe our NFL fan members can fill us in on the details.
Never go full Rider!

TecnoGenius

Quote from: Pete on July 07, 2024, 03:18:07 PMQbs are so integral ti the entertainment value of the league they and I believe rightfully so they should receive extra protection
Which is why they are able to slide down and be ruled down without having contact. The thing is if they dont then they are fair game (other than head contact, and that has to be stricter because of their value to team defenders target them more often)

So is highest-paid RB Brady any less integral to the "entertainment value of the league", or worth any less $?  Well, I guess the answers are "a bit, yes" and "certainly yes, but still highly paid".  And Brady gets no protection at all.

Maybe what happened is when these specific rules were being added it was around that year or two of QB armageddon where 8/9ths of the QBs got injured.  Maybe it was a gut-level over-reaction to try to stem the bleeding, instead of something being well thought out and consistent.

Quote from: Pete on July 07, 2024, 03:18:07 PMThere also seems to be disparity in who the qb is as to how rtp is called ie Streveler vs Fajardo.

100%.  I think there are 4 levels of QBs:

1. Pocket-only passers like Zach, Trevor, Dru, Maier, MBT, BLM
2. Pocket-mostly but very mobile QBs like Cody, VAJ, Kelly, Rourke
3. Run-often but slight/wimpy QBs like Tre Ford, Dukes
4. Run-mostly and bruising/punishing QBs like Strev

The farther you are down that list, the less it seems the refs protect you with flags.  If you're the wimpy "woe is me" QB they throw those flags on nearly any hit.  And then there's Strev who is basically Stanback or Messam but who can throw, and the refs don't care if you take hits because half the time you're the one laying on the wood!

So is that fair or consistent?

Again, back to Dickenson in 2019 "so we can beat up Strev like a RB, right?  Right".

Sometimes it feels like the rule really is "don't hurt the fragile guys, if you hurt them you will get flagged", but "if you're a running QB plowing guys over, you're on your own".

And I'm not even taking a side here: after all, our QB is concussion-prone Zach, who I do want to see protected.  However, Zach also almost never runs, so we don't really need the protection, and the times he has run he often gets trucked anyhow because he slides too late.
Never go full Rider!

Jesse

Quote from: TBURGESS on July 07, 2024, 02:49:24 PMTo me, QB's lose the protection when they run because the rule specifically states:

When QB's are running they are not in the act of passing, nor in a particularly vulnerable position, so that rule shouldn't apply.

I'm not 100 on how the rule is written, but the act of sliding also puts them in a vulnerable position.

It is, with no question, and unfair rule. We got an absolute bogus penalty when Crum fell down on the sidelines. And the very next play Suitor was all superior about how the penalty was justified because our player disengaged contact before the sideline instead of maintaining contact through the line. But what if Crum took that opportunity and ran up the field?

The league is saying that they care less about the integrity of the game in those few instances where someone like Crum can take advantage than they do about keeping passers healthy.

And I'd almost be fine with that, but these rules are so inconsistently applied. We have Zach missing games on illegal hits not called seemingly every year. Remember him losing it on the refs last year? It's hard to take when someone gets a softy call like Crum.
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theaardvark

Does he retain "passer" status if he hook slides?  Can only QB's hook slide. or can any player "surrender"?

I think it was primary contact to the head. Should have been UR, not RTP.
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Throw Long Bannatyne

Quote from: Jesse on July 08, 2024, 01:34:21 PMI'm not 100 on how the rule is written, but the act of sliding also puts them in a vulnerable position.

It is, with no question, and unfair rule. We got an absolute bogus penalty when Crum fell down on the sidelines. And the very next play Suitor was all superior about how the penalty was justified because our player disengaged contact before the sideline instead of maintaining contact through the line. But what if Crum took that opportunity and ran up the field?

The league is saying that they care less about the integrity of the game in those few instances where someone like Crum can take advantage than they do about keeping passers healthy.

And I'd almost be fine with that, but these rules are so inconsistently applied. We have Zach missing games on illegal hits not called seemingly every year. Remember him losing it on the refs last year? It's hard to take when someone gets a softy call like Crum.

Crum doesn't slide, wrong guy to use as an example.  I never liked the rule in the first place, it encourages a QB who likes to run like Fajardo the freedom to steal easy yards at will and never pay the price for running.last game he ran 4/35 and slid or ran out of bounds everytime.

I guess with the protection provided under the rules it is a smart football play and Strev. should consider doing it more often, if for no reason to preserve his health for future games.

Throw Long Bannatyne

Quote from: theaardvark on July 08, 2024, 04:51:05 PMDoes he retain "passer" status if he hook slides?  Can only QB's hook slide. or can any player "surrender"?

I think it was primary contact to the head. Should have been UR, not RTP.

I hope Strev's success running doesn't influence Zach to take more chances running the ball himself, especially in desperate 3rd down situations.  Saw it before when Buck was traded to BC and Lulay started to imitate his recklessness with bad results that needlessly hastened the end of his career.

TecnoGenius

Quote from: theaardvark on July 08, 2024, 04:51:05 PMDoes he retain "passer" status if he hook slidesCan only QB's hook slide. or can any player "surrender"?

Since the rulebook doesn't define "passer", your guess is as good as mine!!

The word SLIDE is only used in the rulebook in reference to QBs, K and P.  That's it.  No other player can slide.  However, any player can go fetal and is supposed to gain protection ("giving themselves up").  And returners can take a knee.

Quote from: theaardvark on July 08, 2024, 04:51:05 PMI think it was primary contact to the head. Should have been UR, not RTP.

But there is no rule under UR for "primary contact to the head" using body parts other than your helmet.  You can "primary contact to the head" with your arms, chest, knees a RB all you want, and Ds do it every few snaps.  As long as you don't use your helmet as the weapon, it's all good.

That is why it wasn't called UR.  The only foul falls under the special RTP rules.  Only "passers" get them -- whatever a "passer" is.
Never go full Rider!

TecnoGenius

Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on July 08, 2024, 06:24:06 PMI hope Strev's success running doesn't influence Zach to take more chances running the ball himself, especially in desperate 3rd down situations.

Ya, like MBT in the last game?  Didn't he fly 5 feet in the air on a mad run up the gut and a brutal tackle?  Ya, definitely don't want to see Zach do that.  MBT is a crazy nutjob who can handle it... Zach, not so much!
Never go full Rider!

TecnoGenius

Thought experiment:

If Dru doesn't slide but the exact same hit happens: does Kramdi still get the flag? 

I say:
According to all the above the answer is: yes.  Because the (arguably late) slide had nothing to do with the flag: it was just about the arm-to-head hit.
Never go full Rider!

TBURGESS

Any player with the ball can give themselves up. It can be a slide or taking a knee or running out of bounds. 

When a player gives themselves up, you can't just smoke them. A touch to a down player is enough. 

Giving a down player a flipper to the head should be UR at minimum and an ejection at maximum no matter who that player is. 
Winnipeg Blue Bombers - 2019 Grey Cup Champs.

Waffler

I find it highly ironic that a "safety" measure has led to the injury of so many QB's. No one to blame but themselves though, feeling they can sneak an extra yard or two. Sliding late is worse than not sliding at all. The penalty is just not enough of a deterrent and I don't know what penalty would be. The only solution seems to be slide earlier.
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Blue In BC

#14
Quote from: TecnoGenius on July 09, 2024, 05:23:35 AMThought experiment:

If Dru doesn't slide but the exact same hit happens: does Kramdi still get the flag? 

I say:
According to all the above the answer is: yes.  Because the (arguably late) slide had nothing to do with the flag: it was just about the arm-to-head hit.

There is no disagreement that Kramdi's arm made contact with Brown's head and it was a penalty. That said, Kramdi had to dive over the late sliding QB.

Think about a player diving over another player. His arms aren't going to out sideways horizontally. It will be across his body because that will be the 1st thing that hits the ground on the other side. To some degree he's protecting himself as best he can.

I don't believe Kramdi had intent and he didn't drive his forearm into Brown's helmet. Still a penalty but there is a difference in a forceful blow ( with or without intent ) and a contact blow.

We've seen forceful blows on players that could justify an ejection or fine. This wasn't that. To some degree once Kramdi commits there is only so much control he has left.

Brown's helmet came off when Kramdi's body slide over top of him. I didn't get the impression it was due to the forearm making contact. It also appeared that the chinstrap was too loose and that didn't help the perception.

I agree with the post above from Waffler that the QB's need to slide earlier and the irony of injuries that result in not doing so.

I wonder whether a penalty would have been called / should have been called if Brown's helmet didn't come off, or he just bounced up and returned to the huddle?



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theaardvark

QB's time their slides to maximize yardage.  I QB that is sliding knows he's going to slide steps before he does.  Not going down there is a decision the QB makes to get more yards.

The longer they wait, the more they risk injury.

Not giving Kramdi a pass on this, like a high stick, you have to have control of your body.  But there is no way he was sticking his arm out with the intent to clip Dru in the head.  It is a penalty, and it was unfortunate that Dru was hurt.  But as other posters have mentioned, his helmet was not properly secured, and the unusual angle of the hit popped it off, and quite possibly that was a contributor to the injury.

You want protection, slide earlier.  Go after extra yards at your own peril.

Now, the hit on Streveler was a targeted helmet to helmet on an immobilized player.  After their QB had been injured.  There is no way you can prove it was retribution, but it was retribution.  That deserves a fine, and should have been an ejection.

Kramdi could have been ejected too in the moment, but I don't think it warrants a fine.
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Blue In BC

Quote from: theaardvark on July 09, 2024, 04:13:38 PMQB's time their slides to maximize yardage.  I QB that is sliding knows he's going to slide steps before he does.  Not going down there is a decision the QB makes to get more yards.

The longer they wait, the more they risk injury.

Not giving Kramdi a pass on this, like a high stick, you have to have control of your body.  But there is no way he was sticking his arm out with the intent to clip Dru in the head.  It is a penalty, and it was unfortunate that Dru was hurt.  But as other posters have mentioned, his helmet was not properly secured, and the unusual angle of the hit popped it off, and quite possibly that was a contributor to the injury.

You want protection, slide earlier.  Go after extra yards at your own peril.

Now, the hit on Streveler was a targeted helmet to helmet on an immobilized player.  After their QB had been injured.  There is no way you can prove it was retribution, but it was retribution.  That deserves a fine, and should have been an ejection.

Kramdi could have been ejected too in the moment, but I don't think it warrants a fine.

I don't know that Streveler was targeted with any more malice than a normal tackle. He also slid late and he runs like a bulldozer with a head of steam built up.  For the most part he doesn't slide so a defender is caught in space trying to take down a very aggressive runner.

Do we really think any player will intentionally seek to injure an opponent? I don't believe that.
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ModAdmin

I think a player wouldn't mind hitting, for example, any "star" and knocking him cleanly out of the game.
"You can't let praise or criticism get to you. It's a weakness to get caught up in either one." - John Wooden

Waffler

Quote from: Blue In BC on July 09, 2024, 04:58:41 PMDo we really think any player will intentionally seek to injure an opponent? I don't believe that.

Tell Joe Kapp that.
Buried in the essentially random digits of pi, you can find your eight-digit birthdate. (Is that a wink from God or just a lot of digits?) - David G. Myers
__________________________________________________
Everything seems stupid when it fails.  - Fyodor Dostoevsky

Blue In BC

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Jesse

Quote from: theaardvark on July 09, 2024, 04:13:38 PMQB's time their slides to maximize yardage.  I QB that is sliding knows he's going to slide steps before he does.  Not going down there is a decision the QB makes to get more yards.

The longer they wait, the more they risk injury.

Not giving Kramdi a pass on this, like a high stick, you have to have control of your body.  But there is no way he was sticking his arm out with the intent to clip Dru in the head.  It is a penalty, and it was unfortunate that Dru was hurt.  But as other posters have mentioned, his helmet was not properly secured, and the unusual angle of the hit popped it off, and quite possibly that was a contributor to the injury.

You want protection, slide earlier.  Go after extra yards at your own peril.

Now, the hit on Streveler was a targeted helmet to helmet on an immobilized player.  After their QB had been injured.  There is no way you can prove it was retribution, but it was retribution.  That deserves a fine, and should have been an ejection.

Kramdi could have been ejected too in the moment, but I don't think it warrants a fine.

I just can't take you seriously on this, man.

Both hits had the same timing. QB started to slide and player started to tackle in the same instant. Both hit the head. Both were penalties. Both or neither will get a fine. No one should have been ejected.

You are making up intent in your own mind.
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Waffler

Quote from: Blue In BC on July 09, 2024, 09:12:46 PMGot an example that didn't happen 60 years ago?
Well too many to mention really. Philion on Khari still rankles me. This year we had Strev's legs obviously twisted in an attempt to injure.
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__________________________________________________
Everything seems stupid when it fails.  - Fyodor Dostoevsky

TecnoGenius

Quote from: TBURGESS on July 09, 2024, 01:32:16 PMAny player with the ball can give themselves up. It can be a slide or taking a knee or running out of bounds.

When a player gives themselves up, you can't just smoke them. A touch to a down player is enough.

Giving a down player a flipper to the head should be UR at minimum and an ejection at maximum no matter who that player is.

Wrong on the slide part.  No other player can slide; no other play does slide.  The rule book only says "slide" in relation to QBs.  If Brady would try to slide the D's would smoke him, and there would be no penalties.

I can further prove the point by adding that QBs are now allowed to dive forward to give themselves up.  They are supposed to be protected diving forward.  No other player gets that protection.  A WR or RB dives and a D is around, they are going to smoke them (and they do!).  As long as it's inside the whistles and they don't lead with their head, there is never going to be a penalty (unless it's Loffler on Begelton defenseless receiver-type stuff).

The proof against your last point (flippers to the head) is the other 3 games of the same week: RBs and WRs were getting smoked by flippers to the head all over the place (I can get screenshots) and no one cares or bats an eye.  Hits that were far more egregious and late and nasty look to down or going-down players.  Crickets from the refs.
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TecnoGenius

Quote from: Waffler on July 09, 2024, 01:53:01 PMSliding late is worse than not sliding at all. The penalty is just not enough of a deterrent and I don't know what penalty would be. The only solution seems to be slide earlier.

I have an idea that would provide perfect QB protection.

1) QB declares pregame if he wants protection (normal pocket-passer style QBs) or not (Strevie, Cody).

2a) Protected QBs are not allowed to be hit past the LoS.  Any slide or touch by a D player is where the ball is spotted.  So "tag football" past the LoS.  Any hit is 25Y (or more) and instant ejection and fine (in theory it would never happen as everyone would instantly know it was "dirty").

2b) Unprotected QBs are 100% fair game and can be treated exactly like a RB/WR (remove the special "QB-only head protection" rule).

Boom, I solved the entire problem.  The QB can declare differently every game.  So Zach would clearly choose the protection, except maybe in the GC he may want the option to risk hits on a run (even then...).

This would remove the problem of QBs not sliding soon enough: where he would normally slide he'd just keep running and D guys just have to tag him.  This would fix all ambiguities.  If needed, command can review potential tags to make sure he was touched.

I don't think this would detract from the game at all.  We all know what QBs should not be taking hits (Zach, Trevor), and ones that can chance it.  Imagine if we could have Zach scramble up the gut for 2nd & 7 and know for a fact the whole time he will not get concussed!  Sign me up!

Ambrosie, call up my agent, my idea will be $1M please!
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TecnoGenius

Quote from: Blue In BC on July 09, 2024, 01:56:35 PMI wonder whether a penalty would have been called / should have been called if Brown's helmet didn't come off, or he just bounced up and returned to the huddle?

That's my "writhing" theory.  Hurt or not, you writhe a bit and take your time (especially if it's now 3rd down), as there is no downside.

100% Dru's helmet sliding off caused the 2 refs to throw their flags right away.  Without that they may have thought about it for a few seconds.  With the helmet off they're thinking "well, he took a head hit or the helmet wouldn't be off".

Compare with Strev, no helmet off, bounced back up like nothing ever happened.  No flag and command has to think about it for 4 mins even though, according to command, it was a far worse penalty (grade 2)!
Never go full Rider!

TecnoGenius

Quote from: Blue In BC on July 09, 2024, 04:58:41 PMDo we really think any player will intentionally seek to injure an opponent? I don't believe that.

Uh.  You haven't watched the game much?  You do what appears to be a dirty hit on the opponent, and worse yet, take their star out of the game??  Ya, not only is the hitter going to get targeted, but the same-position star player on the other team will as well, and even every player in general.

OTT amped up the hits and energy after that, no doubt about it.

It's human nature: someone hurts one of your brothers, you're going to be steaming.
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TecnoGenius

Quote from: ModAdmin on July 09, 2024, 08:48:12 PMI think a player wouldn't mind hitting, for example, any "star" and knocking him cleanly out of the game.

100%.  Players lay a big borderline hit and take a star out of the game, they are quietly (or not so quietly) high-fiving and fist-bumping each other on the sidelines.  They usually try to keep it on the down-low but I see it all the time on TSN as they cut to players milling around waiting for the cart to take away the wounded guy.

I will note I did not see any of our players celebrating the Dru hit, but a) our team is wired a bit differently, and b) Dru was just recently one of our own and no one wants to see him 6G'd.
Never go full Rider!

TecnoGenius

Quote from: Jesse on July 09, 2024, 09:15:55 PMI just can't take you seriously on this, man.

Both hits had the same timing. QB started to slide and player started to tackle in the same instant. Both hit the head. Both were penalties. Both or neither will get a fine. No one should have been ejected.

Wrong.  One was flipper-to-head, the other H2H.  H2H is always treated as worse than flipper (flipper is soft and weak, helmet is a solid object!).  Hitting with your head has its own special rules.

That is why the Strev hit was grade-2 spearing, and the other simple RTP.

100% the grade-2 will get a fine.  The RTP: maybe, maybe not.
Never go full Rider!

TecnoGenius

P.S. Props to Strev.  I go down on the field after every PAS game and often wander to the WFC-autograph corral.  Strev is always there: every single game.  It's rare to the see the same player there twice in one season.  Often the corral is totally empty, like so many players can't be bothered.  Strev comes out every time.
Never go full Rider!

TecnoGenius

Someone mentioned in the GDT that Dru had a neck injury, not a concussion.  After rewatching, I agree.  The hit and then bounce off the turf is often concussion, but when the trainers were checking him out they were working almost exclusively on neck/vertebrae.  His eyes looked fine and I didn't see any sign of concussion.

However, it could also be both, and certainly precaution wasn't a bad idea.  But a messed up neck can be a lingering thing that dogs him for a couple/few weeks.  Didn't Zach have one a year-ish back?  That said, Dru will probably bounce back after that and continue his progression.
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TBURGESS

Quote from: TecnoGenius on July 10, 2024, 04:43:30 AMWrong on the slide part.  No other player can slide; no other play does slide.  The rule book only says "slide" in relation to QBs.  If Brady would try to slide the D's would smoke him, and there would be no penalties.

I can further prove the point by adding that QBs are now allowed to dive forward to give themselves up.  They are supposed to be protected diving forward.  No other player gets that protection.  A WR or RB dives and a D is around, they are going to smoke them (and they do!).  As long as it's inside the whistles and they don't lead with their head, there is never going to be a penalty (unless it's Loffler on Begelton defenseless receiver-type stuff).

The proof against your last point (flippers to the head) is the other 3 games of the same week: RBs and WRs were getting smoked by flippers to the head all over the place (I can get screenshots) and no one cares or bats an eye.  Hits that were far more egregious and late and nasty look to down or going-down players.  Crickets from the refs.

A slide is by definition giving yourself up. If Brady were to slide and a player nailed him in the head with a flipper, there would be a penalty.

Are any of the flipper to head shots you can screenshot against players already on the ground? If so, then they should have been penalties. If not, you're comparing apples to oranges. 
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Sir Blue and Gold

#31
Quote from: TBURGESS on July 10, 2024, 02:56:34 PMA slide is by definition giving yourself up. If Brady were to slide and a player nailed him in the head with a flipper, there would be a penalty.

Are any of the flipper to head shots you can screenshot against players already on the ground? If so, then they should have been penalties. If not, you're comparing apples to oranges.

So there is a nuance here in that the rules specifically protect quarterbacks who slide. When a quarterback slides there can be NO contact. None. Any contact should result in a 15 yard penalty and the onus is on the tackler to avoid contact.

If any other position "slides" they are not afforded that level of protection. Other penalties could still apply: spearing defined as using the top of the helmet as "the primary point of contact" to deliver a blow, delivering a blow to the head or neck area, etc, but contact can still be made to a sliding running back and in practice, it's a different level of force that would need to take place to get that flag.

theaardvark

The big question in any "late hit" is "Can the hitter reasonably avoid/reduce contact, and did they attempt that".

No attempt to avoid = headhunting.  25 yd Penalty and ejection.

If they try to avoid contact but cannot (in the air, other player in the way), and the tackle was started per-surrender, then maybe a 10 yarder. 

There was at least one instance this weekend where a DB was coming into a hit on the QB who slid, and the DB launched over the QB to avoid contact and smoked his own teammate.  It's not really a tough thing to do.

I rewatched the game and the two hits

Kramdi's "flipper" did not seem to be targeting as much as prepping for his own crash to the ground.  That it intersected the path of Dru's head did not seem intentional, and he showed immediate remorse and concern for his former teammate, and went to MOS to discuss it. 

Harris's hit on Streveler was head on, helmet and hand first, and could have been easily avoided/deflected had he chosen to.  He launched bucket first at Streveler.  He could have planted his hand on Streveler's chest and gone over, but he leaned in with his helmet. And then immediately got nose to nose with Lofton "discussing" the hit.  No hands up moving back, "I'm sorry", but rather an in your face "Yeah, whatcha gonna do about it" with Lofton. 

They were two completely different plays, and while the outcomes for the QB's are reversed of what you would think, the penalties on the field more reflect the infractions. 

Not saying Dru is not as tough as Streveler, but I think Dru will be wearing better adjusted head protection going forward.  Streve is a tank used to hitting and getting hit.

Penalties and fines should not be based on the outcomes, but rather on the actions. We will see if the league gets this right when the disciplinary actions are handed out for week 6.
Unabashed positron.  Blue koolaid in my fridge.  I wear my blue sunglasses at night.  Homer, d'oh.

TBURGESS

Kramdi doesn't try to avoid contact. He initiates it with his forearm. To me, that's intent. 
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blue_gold_84

#forthew
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What a wretched timeline.

Throw Long Bannatyne

Quote from: TecnoGenius on July 10, 2024, 05:06:23 AM100%.  Players lay a big borderline hit and take a star out of the game, they are quietly (or not so quietly) high-fiving and fist-bumping each other on the sidelines.  They usually try to keep it on the down-low but I see it all the time on TSN as they cut to players milling around waiting for the cart to take away the wounded guy.

I will note I did not see any of our players celebrating the Dru hit, but a) our team is wired a bit differently, and b) Dru was just recently one of our own and no one wants to see him 6G'd.

Interesting comments from O'Shea in yesterday's press conference, he said he pulled Kramdi off the field immediately after the hit so there would be no further interactions that cost them more penalty yards.  He also said Kramdi was a bit of a ***** and he liked that about him along with his intelligence and flexibility to play multiple positions, he referred to him as invaluable.

theaardvark

Unabashed positron.  Blue koolaid in my fridge.  I wear my blue sunglasses at night.  Homer, d'oh.

J5V

Quote from: theaardvark on July 10, 2024, 03:56:12 PMThe big question in any "late hit" is "Can the hitter reasonably avoid/reduce contact, and did they attempt that".

No attempt to avoid = headhunting.  25 yd Penalty and ejection.

If they try to avoid contact but cannot (in the air, other player in the way), and the tackle was started per-surrender, then maybe a 10 yarder. 

There was at least one instance this weekend where a DB was coming into a hit on the QB who slid, and the DB launched over the QB to avoid contact and smoked his own teammate.  It's not really a tough thing to do.

I rewatched the game and the two hits

Kramdi's "flipper" did not seem to be targeting as much as prepping for his own crash to the ground.  That it intersected the path of Dru's head did not seem intentional, and he showed immediate remorse and concern for his former teammate, and went to MOS to discuss it. 

Harris's hit on Streveler was head on, helmet and hand first, and could have been easily avoided/deflected had he chosen to.  He launched bucket first at Streveler.  He could have planted his hand on Streveler's chest and gone over, but he leaned in with his helmet. And then immediately got nose to nose with Lofton "discussing" the hit.  No hands up moving back, "I'm sorry", but rather an in your face "Yeah, whatcha gonna do about it" with Lofton. 

They were two completely different plays, and while the outcomes for the QB's are reversed of what you would think, the penalties on the field more reflect the infractions. 

Not saying Dru is not as tough as Streveler, but I think Dru will be wearing better adjusted head protection going forward.  Streve is a tank used to hitting and getting hit.

Penalties and fines should not be based on the outcomes, but rather on the actions. We will see if the league gets this right when the disciplinary actions are handed out for week 6.
I largely agree with your description of events. Dru slid very late -- too late IMO because he was trying to grab first down field position. Kramdi was fully committed by the time Dru slid and a collision was inevitable. The only part of Kramdi's hit I didn't like was that he knew there was going to be a collision and he strafed Dru with his arm/elbow with enough force to remove the helmet. For that he deserved his penalty. Had he used his arms to soften the blow instead he may very well have been given the benefit of the doubt.
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TecnoGenius

Quote from: TBURGESS on July 10, 2024, 02:56:34 PMA slide is by definition giving yourself up. If Brady were to slide and a player nailed him in the head with a flipper, there would be a penalty.

Brady would never slide.  No non-QB player ever slides.  Ever.  Returners take a knee, sure.  Sometimes during "hook and ladder" or an INT in the EZ a player will just crumple to the ground fetal to end the play.  But never do they slide.  So it's hard to discuss this issue and all we have to go by is the rulebook.

And the rulebook only mentions slide in relation to QBs.  Therefore any special sliding-only protection is only afforded to QBs.

Now, if you're talking about protection in general for a player "giving themselves up", sure there are rules for that.  If a guy goes fetal, which we do see, then he is afforded some protection (though people often still "tackle" them without penalty).  Your supposition depends upon the refs deciding a sliding WR/RB counts as "giving themselves up" even though it's not in the rules per se.

An aspect to consider is that the Rule 10 Article 3 "spot review" says that sliding-spots (where to put the sticks) are unique to the passer.  If you allow for WR/RB to slide, then where is the spot?  The rulebook is silent.  If a WR/RB were to slide and a D guy not hit him, he would get a more favorable spot than a QB doing the same slide!  Because by rule the QB's spot is moved back to where he initiated the slide, but no such rule exists for non-QBs.

In sum: discussing sliding for non-QB players is pointless since it never happens and there are no special rules for it.

Quote from: TBURGESS on July 10, 2024, 02:56:34 PMAre any of the flipper to head shots you can screenshot against players already on the ground? If so, then they should have been penalties. If not, you're comparing apples to oranges.

Yes, many flipper to the head shots for players already on or close to the ground (usually RBs) in basically every game in the CFL.  Yes, I can find you an example from last week's games, though it may take me a bit of work since I didn't document the times and will have to rewatch.  The SSK and MTL games had many, I think, so I'll start there.  No, there were (and are) never any flags.  By rule, special head protection only exists for QBs (except for leading-helmet hits).

Remember, we're not talking about what we "want", we're talking about what "is".  I'm not saying I like it, I'm just noting the inconsistency in how they call the same action depending on what position the whacked player plays.
Never go full Rider!

TecnoGenius

Quote from: Sir Blue and Gold on July 10, 2024, 03:35:36 PMIf any other position "slides" they are not afforded that level of protection. Other penalties could still apply: spearing defined as using the top of the helmet as "the primary point of contact" to deliver a blow, delivering a blow to the head or neck area, etc, but contact can still be made to a sliding running back and in practice, it's a different level of force that would need to take place to get that flag.

100% you nailed it.  100% correct.  I think this strange rule situation came about because originally everyone was fair game (think: the 80's).  But as more QBs kept getting creamed and 6-gamed the CFL was reactionary and tried to patch the rules specifically to fix the problem at hand.  Thus we have the low (but slowly increasing) protection for WR/RBs and the high (and getting higher) protection for QBs.
Never go full Rider!

TecnoGenius

Quote from: blue_gold_84 on July 10, 2024, 04:13:50 PMRedBlacks QB Brown placed in concussion protocol yesterday

So much for my theory!  My gut instinct in-game was right all along.  Funny, because his head doesn't take whacks that look too big / hard / fast.  But I think it was a side-to-side and double-hit movement that made it worse... those always are worse than one single bang straight to the forehead.

Dru kind of got unlucky.  He also may have a predisposition to being concussion prone, like Zach was earlier in his career.  I hope Dru gets better soon as we all like to watch his development.
Never go full Rider!

TecnoGenius

Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on July 10, 2024, 06:53:10 PMInteresting comments from O'Shea in yesterday's press conference, he said he pulled Kramdi off the field immediately after the hit so there would be no further interactions that cost them more penalty yards.  He also said Kramdi was a bit of a ***** and he liked that about him along with his intelligence and flexibility to play multiple positions, he referred to him as invaluable.

Listen again.  My take was he said he does not immediately pull players off the field, and didn't for Kramdi.  It was at a later time when Kramdi was starting to get heated with the OTT guys that he pulled him.  He seemed to want to make a distinction.

It's an important interview to get people (including me) to understand why we are starting Kramdi.  He basically said the whole D may be in a major bind (my words) without Kramdi, like he's the linchpin.  Very interesting.

And I love how sometimes MOS will let a "can't say that word!" word fly in pressers.  I'm not sure I've ever seen a CFL coach use the word he used!  Even better, MOS meant it as a compliment!  Haha.  Great stuff.  I bet some pundit eyeballs were popping out right at that moment.
Never go full Rider!

TecnoGenius

Quote from: TBURGESS on July 10, 2024, 02:56:34 PMAre any of the flipper to head shots you can screenshot against players already on the ground? If so, then they should have been penalties. If not, you're comparing apples to oranges.

Trying to muster them up now.  Here's the first one in the CGY@MTL game 1Q7:28.  Really egregious and nasty, dude was laying prone for quite a while.  No flag, and command had plenty of time to step in because another CGY player earlier in the tackle got injured causing an injury timeout.  But they didn't, because WR and RBs do not get any head protection like QBs do.


Never go full Rider!

Throw Long Bannatyne

Quote from: TecnoGenius on July 11, 2024, 04:07:15 AMTrying to muster them up now.  Here's the first one in the CGY@MTL game 1Q7:28.  Really egregious and nasty, dude was laying prone for quite a while.  No flag, and command had plenty of time to step in because another CGY player earlier in the tackle got injured causing an injury timeout.  But they didn't, because WR and RBs do not get any head protection like QBs do.




It wouldn't surprise me if that was Awe.

TecnoGenius

Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on July 11, 2024, 05:07:12 AMIt wouldn't surprise me if that was Awe.

Reasonable guess but for once Awe was innocent.  It was CGY's Randle (other side HB).  On MTL's Rambo.  They said after Rambo 6'1 177lb... so that hit's gotta hurt!
Never go full Rider!

TBURGESS

Quote from: TecnoGenius on July 11, 2024, 04:07:15 AMTrying to muster them up now.  Here's the first one in the CGY@MTL game 1Q7:28.  Really egregious and nasty, dude was laying prone for quite a while.  No flag, and command had plenty of time to step in because another CGY player earlier in the tackle got injured causing an injury timeout.  But they didn't, because WR and RBs do not get any head protection like QBs do.



Good example. Should be a penalty IMO.
Winnipeg Blue Bombers - 2019 Grey Cup Champs.


TecnoGenius

Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on July 11, 2024, 10:06:18 PMCFL fines announced today, both Kramdi and Tobias Harris fined.

"Kiondré Smith was punished for violating the CFL Code of Conduct by simulating the firing of a weapon during a touchdown celebration"

Holy smokes!  Does the CFL not see how often in 2023 and 2024 players do the gun-firing sign after every decent play?!  I'd say it's 20% of good plays end with a gun-firing sign (even our players sometimes).  I noted it last year how the refs seem to ignore it now.  I haven't seen an OC for gun-firing since like 2021.

I can find you probably a dozen examples from the last 2 CFL weeks alone.

Punishing Smith is stupid, as that's the epitome of inconsistent.  Is it that they want to just punish obvious ones in TD situations?  Ya, well why didn't the refs call it in-game then?
Never go full Rider!