The Non-Dribbled Non-OSK "Kick From Scrimmage" Again

Started by TecnoGenius, June 29, 2024, 08:38:54 AM

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Sir Blue and Gold

#30
Quote from: Blue In BC on July 01, 2024, 11:35:50 PMThat's the quote I posted on my response.  There are a few older NFL video's but you can have an onside K/O and you can have an onside punt.




https://operations.nfl.com/media/tvglh0mx/2023-rulebook_final.pdf

In the NFL? I don't think so. Page 36, Article 2. After it's been kicked across the LOS, you cannot recover a punt, defined in the rulebook as scrimmage kick. As far as a kickoff goes, maybe, those rules are different, but the CFL "drop kick" would be defined by the NFL rulebook as a scrimmage kick. So no.

Blue In BC

ARTICLE 3. LIVE BALL. A live ball is a ball that is in play. A dead ball becomes a live ball when it is:
(a) legally kicked on a free kick down (6-1-1; 6-1-3);
(b) legally snapped on a scrimmage down (7-1-1; 7-6-1); or
(c) legally kicked on a fair catch kick down.
It continues in play until the down ends (3-9-1).
ARTICLE 4. LOOSE BALL. A loose ball is a live ball that is not in player possession, i.e., any ball that has been kicked, passed,
or fumbled. A loose ball is considered to be in possession of the team (offense) whose player kicked, passed, or fumbled it. It is a
loose ball until a player secures possession or until the ball becomes dead. If it has not yet struck the ground, a loose ball is in
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Sir Blue and Gold

#32
Sigh.

ARTICLE 2.  FIRST TOUCHING BEYOND THE LINE. "First touching" is when a player of the kicking team touches a scrimmage kick in the field of play that is beyond the line of scrimmage before it has been touched by a player of the receiving team beyond the line. If the ball is first touched by a player of the kicking team, it remains in play. First touching is a violation, and the receivers shall have the option of taking possession of the ball at the spot of first touching, provided no live ball penalty is accepted on the play, or at the spot where the ball is dead. First touching does not offset a foul by the receivers; if there is a live ball foul by the receivers that is enforced, either before or after the first touching violation, or any changes of possession, the violation is disregarded, and the penalty is enforced as customary.


...Could it be any more clear? What this is trying to tell you if that drop kick happened in the NFL it would be a first touching violation and the receiving team would take over at the spot of the touch. This happens a handful of times a season further down the field when punts hit cover teams in windy situations.

Blue In BC

Quote from: Sir Blue and Gold on July 02, 2024, 03:26:18 PMSigh.

ARTICLE 2.  FIRST TOUCHING BEYOND THE LINE. "First touching" is when a player of the kicking team touches a scrimmage kick in the field of play that is beyond the line of scrimmage before it has been touched by a player of the receiving team beyond the line. If the ball is first touched by a player of the kicking team, it remains in play. First touching is a violation, and the receivers shall have the option of taking possession of the ball at the spot of first touching, provided no live ball penalty is accepted on the play, or at the spot where the ball is dead. First touching does not offset a foul by the receivers; if there is a live ball foul by the receivers that is enforced, either before or after the first touching violation, or any changes of possession, the violation is disregarded, and the penalty is enforced as customary.


...Could it be any more clear? What this is trying to tell you if that drop kick happened in the NFL it would be a first touching violation and the receiving team would take over at the spot of the touch. This happens a handful of times a season further down the field when punts hit cover teams in windy situations.

Cover teams are not onside or the punter. That seems clear to me.
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Sir Blue and Gold

#34
 
Quote from: Blue In BC on July 02, 2024, 04:34:23 PMCover teams are not onside or the punter. That seems clear to me.

No one is onside in the NFL on a punt. This is what I've been trying to tell you. It's not a thing.

Blue In BC

#35
Perhaps not a typical punt but defined as a nonside punt after giving up a safety.

https://youtu.be/IFQW_gks5FQ
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Sir Blue and Gold

Quote from: Blue In BC on July 02, 2024, 05:04:43 PMPerhaps not a typical punt but defined as a nonside punt after giving up a safety.

https://youtu.be/IFQW_gks5FQ

That's a kickoff. It's totally different as you know very well.

Blue In BC

#37
Quote from: Sir Blue and Gold on July 02, 2024, 06:10:50 PMThat's a kickoff. It's totally different as you know very well.

If you listen to the audio this example is defined as a punt.

While it's not a typical punt on offence, it still applies. I found some old examples which for some reason I couldn't copy into the string.

See post # 31 which was copied from the NFL rule book, item B.  That sounds like a punt to me in the normal sense.
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Sir Blue and Gold

Quote from: Blue In BC on July 02, 2024, 06:35:30 PMIf you listen to the audio this example is defined as a punt.

While it's not a typical punt on offence, it still applies. I found some old examples which for some reason I couldn't copy into the string.

See post # 31 which was copied from the NFL rule book, item B.  That sounds like a punt to me in the normal sense.

Holy smokes man. It's not an offensive play. It's a kickoff and in the NFL you are allowed to do drop kick kickoffs in certain circumstances. He may be "punting" the ball but it's not a fourth down (or any down) play. You clearly are out of your element on this one.

TecnoGenius

Love it, you guys!  Getting deep in the weeds is always fun.  I have no idea what any of this NFL stuff means, though I'm following along.  Don't care about the NFL!  But comparisons never hurt, and neither do thought experiments.

However, my hunch is Sir B&G won this one.  At best BinBC is looking to win by ambiguity.  It could be a case where things aren't defined clearly enough.

It would seem to hinge on players being allowed to be "onside" on a punt.  If the NFL never does the "keep 1 or 2 players behind the punter on punts" trick like we sometimes see in the CFL, then it would seem you can't be onside on a punt.  It probably has to do with the whole lack of halo and option for the kicking team to down or touch their own punt without penalty when fair catch is called.  But I don't watch enough NFL to really know.  Nor do I really care beyond trivia's sake!
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Sir Blue and Gold

Quote from: TecnoGenius on July 03, 2024, 07:49:19 AMLove it, you guys!  Getting deep in the weeds is always fun.  I have no idea what any of this NFL stuff means, though I'm following along.  Don't care about the NFL!  But comparisons never hurt, and neither do thought experiments.

However, my hunch is Sir B&G won this one.  At best BinBC is looking to win by ambiguity.  It could be a case where things aren't defined clearly enough.

It would seem to hinge on players being allowed to be "onside" on a punt.  If the NFL never does the "keep 1 or 2 players behind the punter on punts" trick like we sometimes see in the CFL, then it would seem you can't be onside on a punt.  It probably has to do with the whole lack of halo and option for the kicking team to down or touch their own punt without penalty when fair catch is called.  But I don't watch enough NFL to really know.  Nor do I really care beyond trivia's sake!

The answer is no. No one is onside on a punt in the NFL ever. The punting team cannot recover the ball unless it hits the returning team first (muffed punt).

KINGCHARLES

Quote from: Stats Junkie on June 29, 2024, 09:31:45 PMIn 2014, Montreal showed us how to defend this play - skip to 6:43


Thing is Montreals defence this year might be the only defence skilled enough to stop that play
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KINGCHARLES

I think they need to change the play so that the "onside kick" needs to cover at least the yardage required to make a 1st down.
Ex either a 2nd & 20 goes 20 yards or you dribble it, recover it and gain the 20 yards by foot
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TecnoGenius

Quote from: KINGCHARLES on July 03, 2024, 08:52:06 PMI think they need to change the play so that the "onside kick" needs to cover at least the yardage required to make a 1st down.
Ex either a 2nd & 20 goes 20 yards or you dribble it, recover it and gain the 20 yards by foot

Ya, making the kick go the 20Y would eliminate the trick completely, because that would defeat any benefit.  (The kick+run idea would never fly because there's literally nothing like that in football.)

I think the easier, and more familiar, way to stop it is to enforce a minimum 10Y kick distance just like on KOs.  Ya, punt is different than a KO, but at least fans would be familiar with the 10Y idea already.

Or you could maybe force all (first) punts to be made from a minimum 10Y back from the LoS... most punts are done at least that far back from LoS anyhow.  But you may need an exception for broken-down "scramble" punts.

I say "first" punts because you still want to leave in the possibility of "hook & ladder" silly CFL endings.  You also might be able to focus on the pass before the "punt", forcing it to be a lateral/pass-back and not a forward pass...

Since they said the CFL examined this in detail, I would love to see a copy of their report on this!!  I bet all of this stuff came up.  Maybe they even have an elegant solution already figured out.
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Sir Blue and Gold

I say get rid of it altogether but if they insist on keeping it then just making the punter offside probably makes the most sense. You'd then have two people stacked together which would be a tell or you'd have to scheme a more creative way to have another player around through motion or a come back route or something. Having the punter kick it one inch over the line and pick it back up makes no sense whatsoever.