The Non-Dribbled Non-OSK "Kick From Scrimmage" Again

[Sir Blue and Gold]

You cannot " and contacts in an unnecessarily rough manner a receiving team player who is attempting to play the ball,"  onside or off.  note the word attempting.  Once the ball has been played, open season.  Just like PI, once the ball is touched, you can hit 'em. 

An offside player has to cover 5 yards before hitting them.  And onside player can be less than a yard away.  Timing is essential...

And when I say "smoke" a player, its never meaning an illegal hit, or "unnecessarily rough".  I'm talking a clean hit of intensity, like Ayers hit last game or the Hansen hit in the GC...

And I'm telling you, you cannot do that. A legal hit in normal circumstances (a regular play) can be facemask to facemask at 100 miles an hour.

If you do that in an "onside" punt cover (timing it for the moment the guy touches the ball) you will be flagged 100% of the time. If you stop and make a tackle it's cool. If you fly down and drill the guy it's a minimum 15 yard and probably 25 yard penalty.

Go ask on the Coaches Show. Find anyone in the CFL game who knows how the game is played and ask. This is basic common sense and there's a reason why you NEVER see what you're suggesting actually happen.

[theaardvark]

And I'm telling you, you cannot do that. A legal hit in normal circumstances (a regular play) can be facemask to facemask at 100 miles an hour.

If you do that in an "onside" punt cover (timing it for the moment the guy touches the ball) you will be flagged 100% of the time. If you stop and make a tackle it's cool. If you fly down and drill the guy it's a minimum 15 yard and probably 25 yard penalty.

Go ask on the Coaches Show. Find anyone in the CFL game who knows how the game is played and ask. This is basic common sense and there's a reason why you NEVER see what you're suggesting actually happen.

I would think the biggest reason is it is almost impossible to beat a punt downfield if you are onside.  Unless the punter purposely hangs it up, or is kicking into a hellacious wind. 

The halo makes the NFL non-fair catch play smoke tackle impossible for an offside player.  No reason it limits an onside player.  As long as the tackle is clean and legal.  Ball has to be touched by the returner before contact, hit has to be a legal tackle (not low or high, or leading with the helmet) 

[TecnoGenius]

You cannot " and contacts in an unnecessarily rough manner a receiving team player who is attempting to play the ball,"  onside or off.  note the word attempting.  Once the ball has been played, open season.  Just like PI, once the ball is touched, you can hit 'em. 

That is a good point, and once again the CFL chooses poor and ambiguous wording.

However, I would still argue that "attempting to play" is still occurring even after the catch.  Maybe when they actually get a full run on you can say they are no longer "attempting to play the ball".

But I'm pretty sure "attempting to play the ball" still holds the second after the ball is touched.

Like the other guys said, no one ever does it, and not just because it's difficult.  It may take it occurring once to discover exactly how command will interpret it.  And then I would expect to see a rule clarification and off-season rewording.

I'm nearly positive if someone did the Ayers hit within the halo, even if onside, even right after the ball was touched, that it would be flagged and upheld by command.

[theaardvark]

That is a good point, and once again the CFL chooses poor and ambiguous wording.

However, I would still argue that "attempting to play" is still occurring even after the catch.  Maybe when they actually get a full run on you can say they are no longer "attempting to play the ball".

But I'm pretty sure "attempting to play the ball" still holds the second after the ball is touched.

Like the other guys said, no one ever does it, and not just because it's difficult.  It may take it occurring once to discover exactly how command will interpret it.  And then I would expect to see a rule clarification and off-season rewording.

I'm nearly positive if someone did the Ayers hit within the halo, even if onside, even right after the ball was touched, that it would be flagged and upheld by command.

Just like PI, the attempt to play the ball ends when the ball is played.  That means touched.  If you used you more loosely specified timing on that "attempt to play the ball", you would never be allowed to hit a player.

Once the ball is touched, the halo vanishes and offside players can attack the returner.  Because an onside player can ignore the halo, they can be inside the halo when the ball is touched.  And hence, can make the tackle.

They cannot interfere with the returner preparing to receive the ball.  But the moment they touch the ball, the returner is open season, and onside players are not required to yield 5 yards.

[TecnoGenius]

Just like PI, the attempt to play the ball ends when the ball is played.  That means touched.  If you used you more loosely specified timing on that "attempt to play the ball", you would never be allowed to hit a player.

Well, the rulebook doesn't define "attempting to play the ball", so who knows precisely when it goes from "attempting to play the ball" to "played the ball".  And is there an intermediate step?  "Playing the ball"?

But you make good points.  However, the point remains that anything other than a "polite" form tackle will probably draw a flag, even if not directly supported by the rulebook.

Another thought experiment: the returner and an onside team A player are both trying to catch the ball in the air.  Legit both looking at it, tracking it.  Team A guy hits the returner pretty hard (knocks him over, etc.) in the process of catching, and team A guy catches the ball.  Penalty?

[theaardvark]

Well, the rulebook doesn't define "attempting to play the ball", so who knows precisely when it goes from "attempting to play the ball" to "played the ball".  And is there an intermediate step?  "Playing the ball"?

But you make good points.  However, the point remains that anything other than a "polite" form tackle will probably draw a flag, even if not directly supported by the rulebook.

Another thought experiment: the returner and an onside team A player are both trying to catch the ball in the air.  Legit both looking at it, tracking it.  Team A guy hits the returner pretty hard (knocks him over, etc.) in the process of catching, and team A guy catches the ball.  Penalty?

Treat onside vs. returner as a forward pass.  Both have the right to pursue the catch, but not the right to interfere with the other.  Any contact that interferes (either way) draws a flag, and in this case awards the ball to the interfered with player.

Like a loose ball scramble rule.  QB drops the ball as he falls.  He starts crawling to the ball and is most likely the guy who will get it.  Dlineman grabs his ankle and stops his progress and a DB scoops and scores.  Ball is returned to the O, and a penalty is assessed for impeding access to the ball. 

https://cfldb.ca/rulebook/interference/interference-on-loose-ball/

[TecnoGenius]

Well, we have a bit of an answer on blowing up a returner.  Maybe.

CGY@OTT tonight 1Q4:37 Pimpleton gets creamed by onside P Grace as they both make a play for the punted ball slowly rolling around the EZ.

I'd say Grace did basically "blow up" Pimpleton, and I think it was H2H.  No penalty.  Now, maybe it's a bit different since it's not a big D monster, but only the wimpy punter?  And maybe a mitigating factor is they collided when both were diving on the ground.

But they were both making a (legal) play for the ball.  So clearly that was a mitigating factor.

I would have rather seen the scenario of him blowing up the returner while they were standing, but this play hints that maybe you can be laying heavy collisions on returners if you're onside.  That would make Aards right.

Bonus: ironically, the only recent cases of returners screwing up vis a vis punters rushing to play the ball are both when OTT is the returning team.  This instance, and the one that cost Lankford his CFL career.  Maybe OTT needs to better train up their STs.