Dalton Schoen working our for Vikes...

[Jesse]

The mental gymnastics some posters demonstrate on this forum... Comical.

Schoen is a phenom and will terrorize this league for a long time. And he'll be remunerated accordingly.

There is a legit question about his contract this year, though. I think it's pretty standard to play out the deal and then re-sign for larger on the subsequent contract, no?

[Pigskin]

The mental gymnastics some posters demonstrate on this forum... Comical.

Schoen is a phenom and will terrorize this league for a long time. And he'll be remunerated accordingly.

Agree.

[Pigskin]

There is a legit question about his contract this year, though. I think it's pretty standard to play out the deal and then re-sign for larger on the subsequent contract, no?

He should play out this deal and then re-sign. However, I think the Bombers will bump up his contract this year, and then try to extend him for 2024 and 2025.

[theaardvark]

If he does not get an NFL sniff, then we need to extend him... Give him $125/150 this year (by adding a signing bonus to the extension), and then $175k-200k for the next 2 years (some guaranteed).

That sounds fair to both parties, and gives him a good salary going into his prime contract area, with 4 years of CFL stats under his belt, he will be able to write his own ticket if he keeps up the good work.  If the league catches up to him, then he's had 3 years of above average salary.

 

[blue_gold_84]

There is a legit question about his contract this year, though. I think it's pretty standard to play out the deal and then re-sign for larger on the subsequent contract, no?

I agree. But I think the answer is pretty clear. Based on his 2022 production, one could make the case for him getting a bonus or something similar to tack onto his 2023 salary. At the very least, IMO. He made history as a rookie both with this franchise and the league. That's remarkably significant and he checks off every box in terms of his tangibles and intangibles as a player and teammate. I'm not sure what's feasible, both in terms of contract particulars and the Bombers' SMS implications for 2023, but it could be a good faith gesture on the part of the organization to at least open a dialogue regarding a restructured 2023 contract and potentially extending him beyond this upcoming season.

In terms of extending him, one could also make the case in doing so with an increased salary and bonuses based on what he's done and his performance going forward. Again, how that could shake out depends on multiple factors but the team has clearly found a exceptional gem and potential franchise receiver, so making the investment in his future with the team seems pragmatic.

I don't think this particular situation is one in which you let his rookie contract play out based on what I've stated above.

He should play out this deal and then re-sign. However, I think the Bombers will bump up his contract this year, and then try to extend him for 2024 and 2025.

Agreed. Even bumping him up through 2024 with a restructured 2023 salary/incentives just seems like the reasonable thing to do. I trust Walters' judgment in working out the details and doing what's best for the team and for Schoen.

[Jesse]

I like the idea of extending him and adding a signing bonus for this year - but I guess it depends on what out cap looks like.

[theaardvark]

I like the idea of extending him and adding a signing bonus for this year - but I guess it depends on what out cap looks like.

Schoen was the top receiver in the league last year, as a rookie. 

This is a player you work the cap around, not one that you let get away because of the cap...  unless he won't extend (no extension, no 2023 bump).  In that case, he bets on himself having a great sophomore year, and going after Lawler numbers.  But, should the league figure him out, and/or he gets injured, you can lose betting on yourself.  Safe bet is to get a safe, comfortable deal... takes away the upside, sure, but eliminates the downside... especially now with guaranteed money.

[Jesse]

Schoen was the top receiver in the league last year, as a rookie. 

This is a player you work the cap around, not one that you let get away because of the cap...  unless he won't extend (no extension, no 2023 bump).  In that case, he bets on himself having a great sophomore year, and going after Lawler numbers.  But, should the league figure him out, and/or he gets injured, you can lose betting on yourself.  Safe bet is to get a safe, comfortable deal... takes away the upside, sure, but eliminates the downside... especially now with guaranteed money.

We have a lot of players to "work the cap around" that have already been signed. It just depends, is all.

[Lincoln Locomotive]

Not true.  He's on IMP ELC, I do believe, and I also do believe that IMP ELC is mandated 2 years.  No?  He can go NFL (or other *FL) or quit.  He cannot just up and go to another CFL team.

That said (assuming I'm correct and not getting confused with DPs), it doesn't mean we can't reward him for his production, past and future.  But 150k??  I still think that's wacky for a 2nd year.

And I'm not saying Schoen is only winning on scramble.  I love the kid and he has huge talent.  But he's no Lawler.  He's young and will probably do great things as he develops.  But from what I've seen, I wouldn't in any way bet that he'll be the next Stegall.  It's mostly for the reason that how he does it seems unconventional: and "unconventional" doesn't always mean long term massive success.  Sometimes it spells the opposite.

Ya ya.  I know.  But you must admit his style of getting all those stats was a bit unconventional.  He just never felt to me like a "normal" receiver.  I don't know, maybe I have to rewatch the season focussing on Schoen.  He was always like the magical kid, magically in the right place at the right time.

You think KW ponies up $150 for him?  Wouldn't that be approx double his 2022 ELC $$?

I will reiterate: no opponent team said "we must stop Schoen".  It was Demski.  Maybe Demski being such a threat is why Schoen was open so much?  Now, in 2023, maybe D's will say "we must stop Schoen"; but they didn't in 2022.

What made our offence better last season was a better balance between run and pass.   In years past we had Harris and if teams stopped Harris we usually ended up losing.   Last season we had Demski with 10 TDs and Dalton with 16.    When Ellingson started the season he was on his way to leading the league in passing yardage and when he was hurt Dalton suddenly became more available and he has a nose for the end zone.   our passing and running were well balanced and Brady made a 1000 yards on top of it. 

Schoen's blocking is also a factor and as for becoming a Milt Stegall well there was only ever one like him....albeit he never won a championship either.  The intangibles are his exceptional intelligence and team first attitudes.....plus he's durable.    I don't often disagree with you Techno but imho, we should do whatever it takes to sign him because he's a winner and a team first guy who incidentally happened to lead the league in passing yardage and TDs in his first season!!   He's also clutch!    

[Throw Long Bannatyne]

Not true.  He's on IMP ELC, I do believe, and I also do believe that IMP ELC is mandated 2 years.  No?  He can go NFL (or other *FL) or quit.  He cannot just up and go to another CFL team.

That said (assuming I'm correct and not getting confused with DPs), it doesn't mean we can't reward him for his production, past and future.  But 150k??  I still think that's wacky for a 2nd year.

And I'm not saying Schoen is only winning on scramble.  I love the kid and he has huge talent.  But he's no Lawler.  He's young and will probably do great things as he develops.  But from what I've seen, I wouldn't in any way bet that he'll be the next Stegall.  It's mostly for the reason that how he does it seems unconventional: and "unconventional" doesn't always mean long term massive success.  Sometimes it spells the opposite.

Ya ya.  I know.  But you must admit his style of getting all those stats was a bit unconventional.  He just never felt to me like a "normal" receiver.  I don't know, maybe I have to rewatch the season focussing on Schoen.  He was always like the magical kid, magically in the right place at the right time.

You think KW ponies up $150 for him?  Wouldn't that be approx double his 2022 ELC $$?

I will reiterate: no opponent team said "we must stop Schoen".  It was Demski.  Maybe Demski being such a threat is why Schoen was open so much?  Now, in 2023, maybe D's will say "we must stop Schoen"; but they didn't in 2022.

Scramble rules are legitimate, Zach is not a QB that sits in the pocket patiently looking through his progressions unless he has all day.  He's going to look at 1 or 2 reads and either throw the ball or move the pocket, rollout and wing it. 

Schoen came to the right place, perhaps he wouldn't be as successful in another system with a different QB, but who really cares?  $150K is a good bump, it'll show him respect and they can deal with a bigger number when that contract expires.  Fact is if Ellingson stayed healthy half those balls would have been going to him and Schoen wouldn't have put up such high numbers.

[Blue In BC]

In theory I wouldn't mind seeing Schoen with an extension and a significant raise. The issue is what does that cost us elsewhere across the roster. Now if we choose to give him Ellingson money and start Aguodosi, than that's a financial trade off. Agudosi must still be on an ELC.

OTOH we could give that extra money ( from Ellingson ) to Demski while switching Agudosi onto the roster.

Bottom line is that we can't give Demski, Schoen and Bailey all large raises even if we want to. The money has to come from somewhere and where that could be is not clear.

We might save a little SMS allowing Couture to hit free agency with Eli on a lower SMS deal. How much lower is a question mark though. Bryant, Hardrick and Neufeld all got new contracts. So I don't see any large savings there is at all.

[Sir Blue and Gold]

In theory I wouldn't mind seeing Schoen with an extension and a significant raise. The issue is what does that cost us elsewhere across the roster. Now if we choose to give him Ellingson money and start Aguodosi, than that's a financial trade off. Agudosi must still be on an ELC.

OTOH we could give that extra money ( from Ellingson ) to Demski while switching Agudosi onto the roster.

Bottom line is that we can't give Demski, Schoen and Bailey all large raises even if we want to. The money has to come from somewhere and where that could be is not clear.

We might save a little SMS allowing Couture to hit free agency with Eli on a lower SMS deal. How much lower is a question mark though. Bryant, Hardrick and Neufeld all got new contracts. So I don't see any large savings there is at all.

I'd keep Schoen on the ELC unless he wants to sign for two more years beyond this upcoming season -even then, not 100% sure I would. We've got lots of big contracts. They need to be offset with cheaper deals that overperform and that's what Schoen's deal does. We would also be paying Schoen at peak value. This time next year he may not be quite so on top of the world, and if he is, then you just back up the truck like you'd have to this year.

[Throw Long Bannatyne]

In theory I wouldn't mind seeing Schoen with an extension and a significant raise. The issue is what does that cost us elsewhere across the roster. Now if we choose to give him Ellingson money and start Aguodosi, than that's a financial trade off. Agudosi must still be on an ELC.

OTOH we could give that extra money ( from Ellingson ) to Demski while switching Agudosi onto the roster.

Bottom line is that we can't give Demski, Schoen and Bailey all large raises even if we want to. The money has to come from somewhere and where that could be is not clear.

We might save a little SMS allowing Couture to hit free agency with Eli on a lower SMS deal. How much lower is a question mark though. Bryant, Hardrick and Neufeld all got new contracts. So I don't see any large savings there is at all.

As useful as Bailey is, I don't see him getting a big raise, maybe a $10K bump but that's about it, I think he'd end up a 3rd or 4th receiver on most teams.  He may well move on to improve his payday. 

[Pete]

I would like us to be proactive and sign him even if we have to renegotiate current year. Over the past few years we've tried to sign top recievers with limited s uccess. The price is only going to get higher. We'd likely wait to see what this year's free agency brings to recievers position as there are a number of decent ones

[TecnoGenius]

I'd keep Schoen on the ELC unless he wants to sign for two more years beyond this upcoming season -even then, not 100% sure I would. We've got lots of big contracts. They need to be offset with cheaper deals that overperform and that's what Schoen's deal does. We would also be paying Schoen at peak value. This time next year he may not be quite so on top of the world, and if he is, then you just back up the truck like you'd have to this year.

Yes, that's what I was saying.  If he's on 2yr ELC (and no one said he isn't), and if NFL doesn't care about him, then why bump him at all.  And why massive-bump him to top-10% pay in the league?  Ya, feelz, yada yada.  I like the idea of a small bump and/or bonuses.  I like the idea of promising him more in the future.  If he stays on his trajectory he probably will earn $180 in his year 3.  Why not $120 (all in) in year 2, and $180 year 3, and probably over $200 in year 4?

Look at Bailey... I bet he was on the ELC for his first 2 years.  I bet Lawler was close to it too (even though he didn't rookie with us).  Ya, Schoen>Bailey, but $150 for Schoen in year 2 is going to make a lot of present and future IMP ELCs a bit miffed.  Can anyone think of another year 2 ELC guy on any team that has been offered big money in year 2??  Excluding Rourke, as a QB is a different situation.

At the end of the day, I don't think Schoen will ever be Lawler, nor she he earn as much.  Lawler has level-upped to crazy level and makes catches I've never once seen Schoen make.  They are completely different receivers, completely different styles, that can't even be compared.  It doesn't mean Schoen can't be a long-term great for us.  He can certainly be a league-wide top-5 receiver for many years.  But to bump him up to crazy money in year 2 when even Lawler and other greats didn't get treated like that??

Lastly, I'm trying to think of a CFL player in the last decade to compare Schoen to... I'm drawing blanks.  Who had this kid's style?  Surely there must be someone.  I was thinking Cahoon, but Cahoon would often make Lawler/Dressler circus catches.  Schoen is unique.