Illegal Participation ( Rider game )

Blue In BC · June 17, 2024, 03:47:21 PM

Regarding the fumble recovery negated and aftermath. I found this on google

If a non ball carrier's helmet comes off, that player can no longer participate in the play. If he does, the player will be penalized 10 yards for illegal participation.

Did the refs miss calling the penalty that should have been called or did I miss them moving the spot of the ball?

Seems like a black and white action just as the negating of the fumble.

Not much the Rider could have done otherwise in that situation but that's the rule.

theaardvark · June 17, 2024, 03:53:03 PM

Was there a penalty assessed on the play, or just the negation of the turnover? I don't see the play at all in the Game Tracker

Blue In BC · June 17, 2024, 04:00:28 PM

Quote from: theaardvark on June 17, 2024, 03:53:03 PMWas there a penalty assessed on the play, or just the negation of the turnover? I don't see the play at all in the Game Tracker

That's my question. It was obvious the call of field would be overturned negating the fumble recovery. I can't remember where the variation has happened in the past. There have been a few instances where a player missing his helmet continued the play and was penalized.

I was channel surfing the game so wasn't that tuned in to where the ball was fumbled and recovered etc. IIRC the Riders scored a TD 2 plays later. So any lack of 10 yard penalty had no direct impact on the game.

Blueforlife · June 17, 2024, 04:31:45 PM

I didn't catch the penalty but my memory is good for 2 mins lol

bomb squad · June 17, 2024, 05:43:03 PM

I have it recorded, so I will check. My recollection was somewhere in the middle of the 3rd quarter?

Stats Junkie · June 17, 2024, 05:47:08 PM

The penalty announced on the play was 'Illegal Participation' which is a 10 yard penalty.

By continuing in the play and subsequently recovering the fumble (a loose ball) he also was guilty of 'Interference on Loose Ball' and the penalty for that is a loss of ball at point of foul. This appears to be the option that was applied on the field.

LXTSN · June 17, 2024, 06:40:52 PM

I'd be more mad if I were a Riders fan if they lost.
The rule is there to protect players from entering back into a play with their head completely unprotected. In this case, he made the tackle and was losing his helmet in the process. Then the ball kind of rolls to him, and he covers it up.
Can't really do much about it, but some rules can sometimes lose the spirit of why they were created in the first place.

Sidebar - If a player is carrying the ball and his helmet falls off, the play is blown dead immediately, correct?

dd · June 17, 2024, 07:16:37 PM

Duane Forde made a comment like that as well but the spirit of the rule is to protect a player who's lost his helmet, ya the ball rolled near him so he grabbed it out of instinct, can't give him possession as his helmet is off thankfully he didn't get hurt by someone diving to recover the ball. It all happened so fast

TecnoGenius · June 18, 2024, 02:32:41 AM

Quote from: Blue In BC on June 17, 2024, 04:00:28 PMThat's my question. It was obvious the call of field would be overturned negating the fumble recovery. I can't remember where the variation has happened in the past.

Yes, I think that was the first time that specific thing happened. At least I haven't seen it in the last 10 years. (And I love novel stuff like this, so I tend to remember it. I get all excited I get to hit the rule book, lol.)

TecnoGenius · June 18, 2024, 02:34:07 AM

Quote from: LXTSN on June 17, 2024, 06:40:52 PMSidebar - If a player is carrying the ball and his helmet falls off, the play is blown dead immediately, correct?

Yes, it happened to A.Harris #33 many times. There were 2-3 seasons where AH wore his helmet in "easy off" mode and lost it like every other play. Helmet off, immediate whistle. Yes, it cost us extra yards.

TecnoGenius · June 18, 2024, 02:46:17 AM

Quote from: dd on June 17, 2024, 07:16:37 PMDuane Forde made a comment like that as well but the spirit of the rule is to protect a player who's lost his helmet, ya the ball rolled near him so he grabbed it out of instinct, can't give him possession as his helmet is off thankfully he didn't get hurt by someone diving to recover the ball.

Forde was screwing up the interpretation by questioning it, IMHO.

It's easy:

If you are illegally participating, it's like you don't exist. If you get involved, then it's an penalty, every time. Doesn't matter if you run OOB, or if your bucket comes off. You don't exist except to take penalties.

As such there is no way a fumble recovery can ever go to an illegal participant, because they legally don't exist to make the (any!) play.

Whether it's any more or less safe has nothing to do with it. If you wanted to play the safety argument, you could say that an IP with no lid is 100% more at risk grabbing a fumble! What normally happens when a guy grabs a loose ball: 7 guys dive and jump on top of him. That's very dangerous and we're lucky this guy didn't get hurt. Just because he didn't get killed this one specific time, doesn't mean the scenario isn't normally dangerous!

If you find yourself in that situation and you know where the ball is, you should as rapidly as possible move in the other direction, or go fetal shielding your head!! That is the safe move. And then your team has a 50/50 chance to legally gain possession!

Throw Long Bannatyne · June 18, 2024, 02:56:29 AM

Quote from: TecnoGenius on June 18, 2024, 02:34:07 AMYes, it happened to A.Harris #33 many times. There were 2-3 seasons where AH wore his helmet in "easy off" mode and lost it like every other play. Helmet off, immediate whistle. Yes, it cost us extra yards.

I think losing your helmet should be a penalty, players are obviously not fastening them properly and treating them like a slip off hat sends the wrong message about player safety when it happens 3-5 times every game.

TecnoGenius · June 18, 2024, 03:11:26 AM

Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on June 18, 2024, 02:56:29 AMI think losing your helmet should be a penalty, players are obviously not fastening them properly and treating them like a slip off hat sends the wrong message about player safety when it happens 3-5 times every game.

I'm nearly positive the league chirped at AH or MOS saying "cut it out" after it started getting really bad and obvious. One week he magically stopped losing his helmet...

Penalty would be ok except there are instances where players are getting facemasked or neck-tackled and they lose the lid even if they are wearing/securing it properly.

Remember that time last season when Willie J lost his lid and he got a penalty for RTP or something and everyone was wondering where the HTF penalty was because clearly someone yanked off Willie's helmet! Ya, besides that insult, adding another penalty on Willie would have really sucked.

If there was a penalty, it would have to be something like 3X in 5 games or something, to exclude the flukes. So it would be more like a fine than an in-game penalty.