Why is TOR good?

[TecnoGenius]

I'm trying to understand why TOR is so good.  On paper they should not be.

- 1st year starting QB
- mediocre (that might even be generous) receiver corps
- RB that almost never gets 100Y/game (especially compared to our Brady)

Normally if I tell you the QB is 1st year and the WRs contain no top stars at all, with maybe only one having been "somebody" more than a year ago (Daniels), you'd tell me that team won't do too well.  Ya, TOR is greatly aided by getting to play like 75% of their games against the (still) weaker east.  (The east has gotten a bit better in the last few weeks, but stunk for most of the rest of the season.)

So what does TOR seem to have that's good?

- apparently strong and mobile QB
- strong DL
- strong LBs
- pretty strong DBs
- great K/P return unit
- great K
- Pinball

Add in some things are just baffling:

- 4 men dressed at RB most games, though Leake really is just a returner.  But still, almost no team (ever!) dresses 3 RB and rotates most of them all in every game.

Yet here they are winning more than WPG and BC, and beating BC outright in their one game.  Sure we beat them, but they'll put a monster asterisk beside that game.

I just don't get it.  Is TOR proof that a GM can pretty much ignore the WR position and win by putting together a top D?  Contrast with WPG/BC who both have many league-top and big-$$ WRs.  And sure TOR's main RB is very strong, but they don't run much more than average, and they rotate him heavily for some reason, and he often seems to be modestly injured.  Sure, "D's win championships", but why has it been winning all the regular season games too?

Or is it that Kelly is just that good?... That he can make those meh receivers into all-stars just because he's the CFL's Mahomes?  I'm still a bit skeptical long-term, but it seems to be working for him right now.

So what is TOR's secret sauce, and why is the "paper" so deceptive?  Should other teams follow suit and shift their money away from WR and more into the D?  Should WPG?

[The Zipp]

You kind of answered your own question in your post.  Defence is very good , top notch special teams, qb that can make all the throws and you don't give enough credit to RB and receivers. 

Dinwiddie may be a players coach and smarter than you give him credit for. 

They are the defending champs

[Jesse]

I don't think the paper is deceptive at all. They've had one of the strongest teams on paper for the last couple of years.

They could've taken a big step back with a new starting QB, but Kelly does enough.

[TecnoGenius]

I don't think the paper is deceptive at all. They've had one of the strongest teams on paper for the last couple of years.

They could've taken a big step back with a new starting QB, but Kelly does enough.

Is Kelly doing enough?  Or is he a superhero?  I still think (to Zipp's point) that their WR corps is weak: maybe 3rd weakest, only ahead of OTT and SSK.  The proof will be if they get to (or win!) the GC: will any teams offer their WR's $225k+, except maybe Daniels?  In contrast, we have 3 $225k+ WRs: Kenny, Demski, Schoen (not yet but he will be in FA).

Oh ya!  I forgot a critical part: OL!  They might have the best OL.  So can you blow the wad on D and OL and QB and really score at will with mediocre WR?  Maybe it seems that way.

Would Kelly be kicking butt right now if he was SSK's QB??  Hard to really say, but then again SSK hasn't assembled any supporting cast at all... except KSB, love that kid and maybe we can snatch him up one FA like we did Demski.

[TecnoGenius]

Maybe my core point is TOR isn't balanced.  Slanted heavy on D.  Got lucky with the returner.  Got lucky and a massive discount with 1st year Kelly.  Isn't that Kelly discount going to evaporate next year and cost them elsewhere?

In contrast, WPG is heavily balanced.  The $wad is spread around evenly on every unit.  We literally have no unit that doesn't have a mix of stars and ok's.  But you could argue we are very $heavy$ at WR.  Maybe that's the gamble this year.  Maybe we looked at the '22 GC puzzle and thought the piece missing was a a top SB.

I wonder whose gamble will pay off come that cold day in HAM: ours or TOR's?  Personally I think our focus will be run-heavy (no duh eh?) and (a bit new) the short pass game.  I think we're moving away from the frequent deep bombs, especially come cold weather.

[TecnoGenius]

Dinwiddie may be a players coach and smarter than you give him credit for. 

This may be true.  This is totally just my personal take, but I don't put much stock in Dinwiddie (yet).  I think it's more a function on Pinball than Dinwiddie.  Pinball brought in all the right morale/hunger machines and maybe Dinwiddie just lets them do their thing.

I have noticed that Dinwiddie does have a cut-throat, win-at-all-costs mentality, in a high-strung way.  He's crazy intense but he keeps it in check on the field.  But you can see it in his eyes.  This can be a good thing, or it can backfire.  Maybe when you have a good team and things are working well it can be an asset to push them over the edge to greatness.  But it can also backfire -- as it has on similar coaches in the past -- when they have their down trends.

I guess if he wins this coming cup I'll have to give him more props.  He'll be more like an Austin or someone who I can respect and appreciate while still not liking the guy.

[Jesse]

Maybe my core point is TOR isn't balanced.  Slanted heavy on D.  Got lucky with the returner.  Got lucky and a massive discount with 1st year Kelly.  Isn't that Kelly discount going to evaporate next year and cost them elsewhere?

In contrast, WPG is heavily balanced.  The $wad is spread around evenly on every unit.  We literally have no unit that doesn't have a mix of stars and ok's.  But you could argue we are very $heavy$ at WR.  Maybe that's the gamble this year.  Maybe we looked at the '22 GC puzzle and thought the piece missing was a a top SB.

I wonder whose gamble will pay off come that cold day in HAM: ours or TOR's?  Personally I think our focus will be run-heavy (no duh eh?) and (a bit new) the short pass game.  I think we're moving away from the frequent deep bombs, especially come cold weather.

Your point is all over the place. Kelly is a super hero, but Toronto isn't balanced, they're heavy on Defence, but they also have the best OL.

We said this all last year. They are the deepest team in the league; they've had the best OL next to ours. Their D is amazing.

This year came down to whether Kelly was able to be good enough to not hurt hurt the rest of the roster. And he is.

[Tehedra]

There OL definitely has been out performing ours.  I feel our OL has not performed as well as previous strong years.  Also our special teams have been letting us down all year.  Toronto special teams have been good but most importantly not a let down.

[Pete]

Toronto's defense is very good, dline just watch the ends force everything inside and Oakman/Hendriz swallow up the rest.
Mcmanus is the league's top linebacker, and Picket the best sam. They are very aggressive and force turnovers resulting in their offence having the advantage of the cfl's best starting position for the offense Having the league's top punt returner helps too (Leakes).
Couple this with a superior oline giving Chad the time he needs and it means success.
If all this sounds familiar, it is. It's very similar to the 2019 blue bomber team that was so good.
(NOTE it will be very interesting next year when they have to pay Kelly a starters salary, and have to deal with the pay increases that we've had to handle,sacrificing depth such as Sayles, Couture, etc)

[TecnoGenius]

We said this all last year. They are the deepest team in the league; they've had the best OL next to ours. Their D is amazing.

How did that happen?  As recently as '19 they were horrifically bad.  In '21 they blew the EDF.  I guess in '21 they were starting to show some life.  But how did they go from basement 4-win team in '19 to powerhouse with the "most depth" in such a short time?

It took KW/MOS many more seasons than that to build our depth.  Is Pinball simply that good a magician?  It doesn't really seem fair, I guess.  HAM is probably stewing the most about this as they were the hot team that got beat down into the gutter.

[dd]

I for one think the argos are over rated . They?ve played more than half their games against weak opponents -,Ottawa x4, Hamilton  and Montreal and Edmonton. They lost to Calgary and us, and are currently struggling vs the criders. This is fine by me. They do have a decent running game oulette with grandpa harris there riding on his coattails. I used to think bc was a better team but after last nights stinker forget that. I m more concerned with getting out of the west than potentially meeting them in the grey cup, and I m hoping Hamilton or Montreal upset them in the playoffs , that would be awesome !!

[The Zipp]

Toronto is great for knocking the riders out...

[J5V]

I've hated Toronto for over 50 years. I've heard time and again how the CFL needs a good Toronto team in the league and it's always the same ... the league favours the Argos and gives them every break imaginable. The "Argo Bounce" extends far beyond the game on the field. Toronto always miraculously gets the marquis players and where it takes teams like ours many years of careful planning, player management, and luck the Argos can magically "build" a great team seemingly out of thin air in no time at all. It's no wonder fans question how the Argos can get so good so fast. It has happened as long as I've been a CFL fan and that's a lifetime.

When I was just a young Bomber fan I once asked a veteran Bomber fan why he hated the Argos so much. He told me what I've said above and I had no idea if it was true or not. Now after all these years I see exactly what he meant.

<sarcasm>The Argos don't build great teams they're gifted great teams because, y'know, the league needs a great CFL team in Toronto because their fans are so great and supportive! </sarcasm>

[Waffler]

No one mentioned how physical they are. Will grind down teams not able to match it.

[bunker]

Toronto's defense is very good, dline just watch the ends force everything inside and Oakman/Hendriz swallow up the rest.
Mcmanus is the league's top linebacker, and Picket the best sam. They are very aggressive and force turnovers resulting in their offence having the advantage of the cfl's best starting position for the offense Having the league's top punt returner helps too (Leakes).
Couple this with a superior oline giving Chad the time he needs and it means success.
If all this sounds familiar, it is. It's very similar to the 2019 blue bomber team that was so good.
(NOTE it will be very interesting next year when they have to pay Kelly a starters salary, and have to deal with the pay increases that we've had to handle,sacrificing depth such as Sayles, Couture, etc)

I think Pete hit most of the important reasons in his post. IMO they have the best defense in the league, starting with the best D-line in the league. Their LBs are great, a step above ours, especially at SAM. They have done an amazing job at recruiting talent, both national and american, and Stiggers is an example. He's an all-star making minimum salary. Robby Smith and Jordan Williams are both very good nationals on D. Compare them to us using a sub-par Kramdi and Thomas and Lawson rotating (I really like Lawson, but Jake has lost step).

They have done a very good job scouting talent at the QB position also. I don't like Kelly personally, but his performance has been on par with Zach's, and this year he's making less than 1/2 the salary which allowed them to go after free agent talent like Orimolade. I've also been impressed with Dukes, he's done incredibly well for a relative rookie QB (first CFL season after playing one year in the IFL). I wonder if Dinwiddie has a knack for finding QBs the way Buono used to with Calgary.

I think their O-line and whatever system they are using is better in pass protection that ours. I might give ours the nod for run blocking, but we do bring in Jackson,Eli and Dobson to help with that. Oullette is a very good back, probably second or third best in league. Agree their receivers are not best in league, but they seem to get it done by committee and are pretty clutch a lot of the time (see Coxie at the end of the Riders game).

Their special teams are great, not just Leake but Bede as a punter, and even more recently as a surprisingly accurate kicker filling in for injury.

I think Dinwiddie is a smart aggressive coach, probably too aggressive after seeing him tear a strip of Dukes following the failed 3rd down gamble against Riders.

Bottom line, someone in their organization had done a very good job scouting (? John Murphy behind the scenes, or their assistant GM Magri). This used to be our strong point, but we've fallen off here, possibly due to loss of Ringmaiden.

They will be challenged next year though, having to shed 300,000 in salary to make up for Kelly's new contract.