DPI behind the LoS?

[TecnoGenius]

4Q9:50 CGY runs a jet sweep with weakside WR coming across in front of QB and Maier tosses him the ball.  A SSK D guy gets in the backfield and disrupts the sweeping WR, pushing him farther into the backfield well before the ball arrives, both "going through" the intended WR, and impeding his progress towards the ball.

My question: why is this not DPI?  Is there some rule that DPI can only occur ahead of the LoS?  What if a guy blows up a WR who's waiting to catch a hitch screen behind the LoS?  I'm pretty sure that would be DPI.  So why not this sweep?

I guess you could say the SSK guy is trying to push a guy "blocking for the QB" out of the way, which is his right as a pass-rusher; but the CGY WR isn't a pass-pro blocker, he's the intended ball carrier and targeted R!  Ya, but the CGY guy can't possibly know.

Maybe it has to do with where in the formation it occurs?  The "DPI" occurs kinda/sorta within the box / DEs.  Maybe there's a rule/exception for whacking intended receivers within the box.

Can anyone point to the rule that would eliminate DPI as an possible foul in this situation?  Surely there must be one.  A similar situation often happens where a smart D will notice an escaping RB sneaking out for the dump or screen pass and jamming him, also behind the LoS, but usually outside the box.  Those are never DPI either.

[theaardvark]

4Q9:50 CGY runs a jet sweep with weakside WR coming across in front of QB and Maier tosses him the ball.  A SSK D guy gets in the backfield and disrupts the sweeping WR, pushing him farther into the backfield well before the ball arrives, both "going through" the intended WR, and impeding his progress towards the ball.

My question: why is this not DPI?  Is there some rule that DPI can only occur ahead of the LoS?  What if a guy blows up a WR who's waiting to catch a hitch screen behind the LoS?  I'm pretty sure that would be DPI.  So why not this sweep?

I guess you could say the SSK guy is trying to push a guy "blocking for the QB" out of the way, which is his right as a pass-rusher; but the CGY WR isn't a pass-pro blocker, he's the intended ball carrier and targeted R!  Ya, but the CGY guy can't possibly know.

Maybe it has to do with where in the formation it occurs?  The "DPI" occurs kinda/sorta within the box / DEs.  Maybe there's a rule/exception for whacking intended receivers within the box.

Can anyone point to the rule that would eliminate DPI as an possible foul in this situation?  Surely there must be one.  A similar situation often happens where a smart D will notice an escaping RB sneaking out for the dump or screen pass and jamming him, also behind the LoS, but usually outside the box.  Those are never DPI either.

I do believe the "contact within 5 yards" applies

[Horseman]

This is a great question, my only comment is at the time of the hit/push it is unclear if it will be a toss pass or a hand off. But you are probably right about being in the box with all the pass rushers, O-linemen and chaos going on in there.

[Pete]

the last three 1/2 minutes of the calgary saskatchewan game was probably the worst  officiated game I've seen , they had at least 4 calls overturned by challenge or the command center. it was crazy...only in the cfl

[Sir Blue and Gold]

It doesn't matter if he looks like a pass pro blocker or not. It's not pass interference in that case.

[dd]

Defense CAN NOT interfere with an eligible receiver behind the line of scrimmage, this is defensive pass interference, first down offense at point of last scrimmage, not point of foul as offense can?t lose yards on a penalized play, so downs get reset to first down.

[TecnoGenius]

I do believe the "contact within 5 yards" applies

Ya, I thought about that.  But that's not supposed to be the D guy running to the LoS to jam the guy, it's supposed to be the D guy standing his ground jamming the R running at him?  I can't really think of a normal 5-yard jam play where the D guy runs 4 yards up and jams the R.

Not to mention, the 5-yard jams usually are a head-on collision thing.  If a D guy sits 3Y up field and jams guys running across the LoS out of his route (i.e. jamming perpindicularly), then wouldn't that be DPI?

Similarly, jams are obstructions of an R's straight north progress, not attempts to change their direction completely.  We don't see jams where a big LB will take a north-running tiny R and push him forcefully east or west.  That would probably be IC or DPI.

I see what you're saying, but I think the "5 yard exception" rule would only apply as it does downfield: obstructing a R head-on just to slow them down, not redirect them.

[TecnoGenius]

It doesn't matter if he looks like a pass pro blocker or not. It's not pass interference in that case.

Ok, fair take.  But why?  What's the rule that differentiates between this action downfield vs behind LoS, and behind LoS out wide vs behind the box?

[theaardvark]

PI only happens if there is a P...

[TecnoGenius]

Defense CAN NOT interfere with an eligible receiver behind the line of scrimmage, this is defensive pass interference, first down offense at point of last scrimmage, not point of foul as offense can?t lose yards on a penalized play, so downs get reset to first down.

True, it would have to involve an eligible R (ER).  However, as devil's advocate, ERs stay in the box to block all the time (say Demski or Woli) and you can do all you want to push them out of the way in any manner or direction you want.  It would be very hard to police and a massive grey area.

Though I think any DPI that would result in less than 10Y gain automatically gets 10Y and 1st D?

Thought exercise if these plays are indeed DPI: Say a scheme puts every R in the box to block, maybe have them all cross E/W or W/E on snap.  QB drops back 10Y, waits to see what R gets pushed the hardest, then throws the ball to them.  Ball is incomplete, or gets knocked down or INT.  In all cases you can challenge DPI and be guaranteed a free 10Y.

[TecnoGenius]

Here's a more common scenario we've actually seen before:

QB fading south.
RB slipping out free in the vacated flat, behind LoS.
DL guy sniffs out the screen and heads towards RB.
QB throws the high arc soft screen pass.
DL guy tugs, pulls, jams, knocks down the RB outside, but close to the box.

I've seen this happen to AH a few times in the past 7 years.  It's never called DPI, even though it's slightly less obscured than the SSK/CGY example.  Guys can be basically tugging/holding AH from southwards of the LoS and no one cares.  It's almost as though if you sniff out the screen you can interfere with the RB however you want, as long as it's close to the box.

I wonder what command would do if one of these was challenged...

[dd]

True, it would have to involve an eligible R (ER).  However, as devil's advocate, ERs stay in the box to block all the time (say Demski or Woli) and you can do all you want to push them out of the way in any manner or direction you want.  It would be very hard to police and a massive grey area.

Though I think any DPI that would result in less than 10Y gain automatically gets 10Y and 1st D?

Thought exercise if these plays are indeed DPI: Say a scheme puts every R in the box to block, maybe have them all cross E/W or W/E on snap.  QB drops back 10Y, waits to see what R gets pushed the hardest, then throws the ball to them.  Ball is incomplete, or gets knocked down or INT.  In all cases you can challenge DPI and be guaranteed a free 10Y.

If offensive player assumes a blocking stance all bets are off, he?s blocking and defense can engage. No looking for who gets pushed the most as it doesn?t matter.

If a RB swings out of the backfield looking for a swing pass and is interfered with, DPI, 1st down, PLS, right outta the rulebook

[TecnoGenius]

If offensive player assumes a blocking stance all bets are off, he?s blocking and defense can engage. No looking for who gets pushed the most as it doesn?t matter.

If a RB swings out of the backfield looking for a swing pass and is interfered with, DPI, 1st down, PLS, right outta the rulebook

Good point!  If you do any blocking, then they can legally jam you any which way at the point of contact, even if your intent is to sneak out for a screen.

This case here was a WR coming in from wide out on a speed jet sweep, clearly not trying to block anyone.

[theaardvark]

I thought you could impede a receiver within 5 yards of the LOS... hence the offence of "Illegal contact beyond 5 yards"...

[TecnoGenius]

I thought you could impede a receiver within 5 yards of the LOS... hence the offence of "Illegal contact beyond 5 yards"...

You can "jam", but you cannot hold or redirect.  You never see someone trying to run by a D and the guy pushes you over east/west.  That would be IC.  They always just jam each other head on and someone has to give way to continue the route.

It's a timing-disruption and slight slowing-down thing, not a redirection or massive delay thing.  Like I said, I'm pretty sure you can't jam a guy running E/W 3 yards in front of the LoS.

And think about my wide-out hitch screen pass behind the LoS example.  A D can't just run up and jam a WR standing there as the pass is coming!  No, they have to time up their hit like any other pass.