Chris Jones Watch - Front Office SMS

[TecnoGenius]

Attendance (in thousands):

Wow, it's like good teams turning into bad teams tanks the attendance.  Go figure.

The sad part is Riderville, because they funded and built that stadium under the assumption they'd get 30k+ in the stands every game forever.

[TecnoGenius]

Anyone who thinks the front office SMS has been anything positive for the league is delusional.  It is literally killing the CFL.  It should be abolished immediately.  There is zero benefit to having it in place. 

The coaches SMS is a huge failure.  It was always a stupid idea.  Everyone here has voiced concerns even before the big downsides starting showing up.  Not only do they limit what you can spend, but they hamstring you with bad choices for years after as you have to pay the fired coaches/staff!

I think the "teams are going to run out of money paying coaches" was never actually a thing.  They tried to fix a problem that wasn't a problem.  Who here ever heard or thought about teams going broke paying coaches before they put this rule in place?  Ya, people parrot the line "the teams will go broke!", but show me one team that went broke.  Show me one team that this dumb rule "saved" or made better.  And did the CFL, as a whole, get better?  Ha.

The CFL has to fix the front office SMS issue... I know its to prevent the haves from hiring everyone away from the have nots, and I can see there needs to be a cap

Again, show me evidence of this "have/have nots" (vis a vis coaches) theory in reality before the idiotic cap.  People parrot this line too, but I never saw it!  And coaches aren't like players.  You can't apply the same caps and ideas to the ~10 man coaching corps as the 45+ player roster!  It simply doesn't work.  Because coaches aren't players.  A "good coach" isn't as easy to spot as a good player.  The measurables are more vague, especially for a new/prospective coach.  I think the whole concept is flawed.  I think it's more that good coaches are made by winning teams, not that teams will hoard good coaches to become good.

At the very, very least, they should drop the dumb keep-paying-them-after-they-are-fired nonsense.  Keep the cap if you must, but let coaches get fired without screwing them for years to come.

[TecnoGenius]

Blow the cap and take the penalty??  I dunno this is a tricky one - the season is over for the Elks, they are into pre-season for next season.  I am sure they have crunched the numbers and thought about canning him - how can you not??

But they aren't.  EDM roster-changed only 3 players in our game, and only 1 was anything "new" I think.  EDM is playing like they are on the right track.  And you know what, I think they are inching up.  They gave us a huge run for our money and had everyone sweating (whether they admit it or not).  They put up 31 on TOR!

They've had a pretty tough schedule so far.  I could see them pulling out some wins as their remaining games are against weaker teams (minus the 2 TOR, 1 BC and 1 WPG game).

I might worry more about SSK right now than EDM.  If it was SSK@EDM tonight, EDM probably would have won.

[TecnoGenius]

Is it on one year deal that he's on or are there two more years after this one? Both have been reported. If you owe him for the next 2.5 years, its tough to axe him. Toth mentioned today on CJOB that the staff is made up of Jones's buddies so that the overall approach likely would not change. I think they're better off firing him but I'm a fan sitting at a computer.

I read somewhere (maybe here) that EDM is still paying Elizondo and one other guy from that era.  If true that is truly insane and it is completely impossible to fire Jones before FA.  There is no way they can afford to pay Zondo, Jones and some new guy!!

[TecnoGenius]

It's funny, in Formula 1 there's always chatter of conspiracies that when a favored team gets strong (better engine, trick aero, whatever) the FIA locks the rules/specs so that that team can exploit and win everything for a few years.  They institute new rules/locks to lock in the status quo.  Often this is Ferrari, then later Mercedes, now Red Bull.  Who knows if there's money under the table, etc, but you can speculate.

What if the CFL brought in these dumb coaches cap rules that on the surface "help the have-not teams" but in reality were intended to do the opposite?  Ya, wild tin foil on this one.  But what bad team has benefited?  Throughout all these changes WPG has remained the big powerhouse...  Even without intent, I don't see this rule to have helped any team vastly improve their coach corps.

Let's be honest, if the coaches cap wasn't in place would these guys still be with their current team?
- C.Jones
- J.O'Day
- Dickerson The Lesser
- for fun let's throw in Dickerson The Greater if he misses the playoffs

Second question: could those teams be better tomorrow if they were allowed fresh blood and a fresh start?  Almost certainly.  You cannot run a team with GMs and HCs that have lost the room.  So why are we trying to force it?

Third question: have the teams that took the cap pain and fired coaches/GMs done better?  MTL, OTT, BC: yes!  Can you imagine if BC still had tummy-rubber tongue-shower as HC??  Who are the sad sack teams right now?  Oh look, teams who can't fire coaches/GMs: EDM, SSK.

Aards is right.  Abolish or massively revamp the coach limiations.  Until then I'll happily take the free W's against the doomed teams; but I'll shed a tear for the league.

[Waffler]

I read somewhere (maybe here) that EDM is still paying Elizondo and one other guy from that era.  If true that is truly insane and it is completely impossible to fire Jones before FA.  There is no way they can afford to pay Zondo, Jones and some new guy!!

The way he throws around big money for players, how can you afford not to fire him?  Corny is making good coin for instance. Look at the stands, look at how they can't win with a 22 point lead, look at how there is just no hope. An almost season long 13 game losing streak. The paying customers have not seen a win in years. The panel picks them to win a game soon. Ok. I expect them to lose both ends of the Labor Day home and home. Will they fire him then? He ran a once proud franchise into the ground. He just needs to be gone and hang the cost.

[Jesse]

It's funny, in Formula 1 there's always chatter of conspiracies that when a favored team gets strong (better engine, trick aero, whatever) the FIA locks the rules/specs so that that team can exploit and win everything for a few years.  They institute new rules/locks to lock in the status quo.  Often this is Ferrari, then later Mercedes, now Red Bull.  Who knows if there's money under the table, etc, but you can speculate.

What if the CFL brought in these dumb coaches cap rules that on the surface "help the have-not teams" but in reality were intended to do the opposite?  Ya, wild tin foil on this one.  But what bad team has benefited?  Throughout all these changes WPG has remained the big powerhouse...  Even without intent, I don't see this rule to have helped any team vastly improve their coach corps.

Let's be honest, if the coaches cap wasn't in place would these guys still be with their current team?
- C.Jones
- J.O'Day
- Dickerson The Lesser
- for fun let's throw in Dickerson The Greater if he misses the playoffs

Second question: could those teams be better tomorrow if they were allowed fresh blood and a fresh start?  Almost certainly.  You cannot run a team with GMs and HCs that have lost the room.  So why are we trying to force it?

Third question: have the teams that took the cap pain and fired coaches/GMs done better?  MTL, OTT, BC: yes!  Can you imagine if BC still had tummy-rubber tongue-shower as HC??  Who are the sad sack teams right now?  Oh look, teams who can't fire coaches/GMs: EDM, SSK.

Aards is right.  Abolish or massively revamp the coach limiations.  Until then I'll happily take the free W's against the doomed teams; but I'll shed a tear for the league.

Where is this "have/have not" nonsense coming from?

The salary cap is to make teams more profitable and easier to sell. Teams were firing staffs every other year and paying (like the Elks) three staffs at once. Meanwhile the league was trying to find owners for BC and Montreal and an Atlantic team. You can't sell a team that's paying a bunch of people to not work for you.

[TBURGESS]

The management SMS system is stupid. All it does is doom bad teams to being bad until they can afford to change out bad coaches. Bad teams are bad for the CFL.

If they absolutely want to keep some SMS system for management, at least let teams fire coaches and take those salaries out of the SMS system. In short, teams can only pay X amount for coaches per year.

[Jesse]

The management SMS system is stupid. All it does is doom bad teams to being bad until they can afford to change out bad coaches. Bad teams are bad for the CFL.

If they absolutely want to keep some SMS system for management, at least let teams fire coaches and take those salaries out of the SMS system. In short, teams can only pay X amount for coaches per year.

That would defeat the purpose.

I don't feel bad for a team like Edmonton, to be honest. It was a dumb decision to make Jones every position for that long and now they're paying the price. This is the kind of stupid mistake that led to the cap and maybe it will save some teams from their own ignorance.

[theaardvark]

On reflection, I think Jones was one of the reasons the cap came in.  His move from Edm to SSK ws primarily for a paycheck, if I remember correctly. 

Granted, with no SMS cap, we'd see a lot more movement in the coaching ranks, I can't imagine how much MOS and crew would get offered.  I'm sure we'd have matched, but maybe not if it was really, really high. 

There is a place for SMS with players that have "cut anytime, except when injured and salary isn't in the cap anyway" contracts.  SMS in a system where contracts are guaranteed is stupid.

Maybe, hear me out, they should have an "active cap", where the current roster of coaches / executives can only make the SMS limit.  Anyone fired comes off that cap, as their replacements go in.  $$ given to the fired coaches while they were active still count, contracts prorated by games active.

[Jesse]

On reflection, I think Jones was one of the reasons the cap came in.  His move from Edm to SSK ws primarily for a paycheck, if I remember correctly. 

Granted, with no SMS cap, we'd see a lot more movement in the coaching ranks, I can't imagine how much MOS and crew would get offered.  I'm sure we'd have matched, but maybe not if it was really, really high. 

There is a place for SMS with players that have "cut anytime, except when injured and salary isn't in the cap anyway" contracts.  SMS in a system where contracts are guaranteed is stupid.

Maybe, hear me out, they should have an "active cap", where the current roster of coaches / executives can only make the SMS limit.  Anyone fired comes off that cap, as their replacements go in.  $$ given to the fired coaches while they were active still count, contracts prorated by games active.

If they wanted to do that, they?d remove the cap.

The point is to make running a CFL team cheaper.

[theaardvark]

Why in the world would Cui convert him to a 4 year deal in the off-season after their horrendous record? Makes no sense.

Why would he sign Jones period.  Jones had laid the groundwork, and Cui probably thought that it was a good idea at the time.  Isure bet he regrets it now, whether it was originally signed that way, or converted...

Blow the cap and take the penalty??  I dunno this is a tricky one - the season is over for the Elks, they are into pre-season for next season.  I am sure they have crunched the numbers and thought about canning him - how can you not??

Penalties for "blowing the cap...

"Introduced in 2019, the CFL has a football operations employee and salary cap. The cap for 2019 and 2020 was $2.588 million and limits coaches to 11 and other football operations staff to 14, excluding doctors and athletic therapists. Fines are in place for teams that exceed the cap and the loss of draft picks occur after exceeding the cap by $100,000. Personal fines are also possible, though in the first year, teams were self-reporting and only team fines were a possible punishment. Initial reports stated a coach limit of 11, football operations staff limit of 17, and total expenditures capped at $2.738 million. The cap was enacted to control the fastest expense growth area across the league, which outpaces revenue growth."   

Not only can you lose draft picks, a GM or President could personally get fined...

This was a terrible decision day one, and Ambrosie has to fix it.  I know it was to prevent teams from spending themselves into insolvency, but I can't imagine the powers that be could have forseen this.  

[theaardvark]

If they wanted to do that, they?d remove the cap.

The point is to make running a CFL team cheaper.

The key is, by having an "active cap", you are essentially mimicing the players SMS.  The only difference is paying coaches when they are cut, but not players.  So, IF a President/GM decides the business decision of moving on from a coach/GM makes *business* sense, and that the potential improved gate will cover the costs of paying out a fired coach, they have the OPTION to make that decision.  And, potentially, affect the gate for years to come in a positive way.

An "Active" cap prevents teams from stealing away coaches, prevents teams from over paying at any coaching position.  But it allows for firing coaches before they cost the team huge money in lost gate...  especially if you promise free tickets if you don't win... I can't imagine how much Jones has cost the team in that way alone.  I am sure moving on from Jones will, at least, create a game or two dead cat bounce effect where they win a game, and get fans back in the stands. 

Firing Jones today could increase gate the rest of the year, probably more than enough to cover his cost.

[theaardvark]

On another front, making a bad team better means recruiting.  How hard will it be to get good players to come to EDM at a reasonable price?  Sure, you can overpay them to come, basically assuring them playoff money you know they aren't going to qualify for, but that puts you behind the 8 ball before you hit the field.  Lawler took less to get out of EDM and back to WPG. 

The teams need the best possible leadership to make the best product on the field.  Once a GM/Coach has "lost the room" or worse, on field is going to suffer, and gate is going to suffer, and eventually viewership is going to suffer.

The more I think about it, the more an "Active Cap" makes total sense.  Cost assuredness for your front office, no one can outbid you, BUT the freedom to make moves that will make you competitive and keep gate revenue, which can offset the cost of firing and paying out a coach.

[pdirks67]

If Chris Jones was going to be fired in midseason, I would have expected it to happen after Game 5 when the Elk returner conceded a single in the endzone against the Riders with less than a minute left.

That was as good an example of poor coaching as I have ever seen. I literally could not believe what I was seeing when I saw the returner lollygagging his way to pick up the ball in the endzone. He clearly didn't understand CFL rules, and clearly didn't know that his primary objective was to get the ball out of the endzone. That is pure tactical coaching - they are supposed to discuss a clear gameplan on every special teams play on the sidelines before it happens.

If I was Cui, I would have fired Jones on the spot if it was feasible from an SMS perspective. Losing to Winnipeg pales in comparison to the loss against the Riders. I don't think there's any way Jones gets fired any time soon.