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Author Topic: Players will not be reporting to camp unless a new deal is in place...  (Read 19161 times)
Throw Long Bannatyne
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« Reply #180 on: May 02, 2019, 04:37:36 PM »

Yes - what's happened is that teams are willing to pay a higher premium for elite quarterbacks. That in itself means that those quarterbacks are worth more by definition. If those teams aren't competitive any longer, then you might see some sort of a correction, but that's an if not a when.

Since you're throwing out the "ruining the league" card, I'd invite you to stop hyperventilating and put things into perspective. Since you proclaimed $500,000 as acceptable payment for top end quarterbacks in "Aardvark reality", then you're only talking about two quarterbacks as outliers. Mike Reilly is about $225,000 over your stamp of approval and Bo Levi is about $175,000. While it's true that all QBs may creep up a bit as a result, this is not going to "ruin the league". Realistically, those teams are going to have to pay 1 or 2 extra players league minimum to make up for the change.

Mike Reilly is being paid almost $800,000 per season, that's costing BC a lot more than 1 or 2 extra players earning league minimum as their recent cuts would indicate.  Signing Mike Reilly won't solve their attendance woes if BC misses the playoffs, Hervey bet the house.
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Sir Blue and Gold
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« Reply #181 on: May 02, 2019, 04:47:15 PM »

Mike Reilly is being paid almost $800,000 per season, that's costing BC a lot more than 1 or 2 extra players earning league minimum as their recent cuts would indicate.  Signing Mike Reilly won't solve their attendance woes if BC misses the playoffs, Hervey bet the house.

$2.9M over four years is $725,000 per season if it's dispersed evenly (that's the contract, look it up, it's one of the most publicized contracts in CFL history). $725,000 minus Aardvark's suggested $500,000 cap is $225,000 per year (or 5.2% of the cap) This is not an astronomical sum. You could obviously solve this problem a number of ways but you're looking at 1-2 fewer veteran players in the most likely scenario. BC also signed Suhk Chungh to what was rumored to be a big deal and made some other signings too. They are adjusting for a lot more than just the price of a higher QB. I'm sure the combination of Jennings and Lulay wasn't peanuts either.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2019, 04:49:01 PM by Sir Blue and Gold » Logged
booch
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« Reply #182 on: May 02, 2019, 05:43:13 PM »

BC is paying Reilly and Chungh a combined amount of 1 000 000  for the 2019 season...thats a lot of cheeze tied up into 2 players in a 5.5 million dollar cap league..not to mention the couple other guys they re-upped who are well over 150k...their peripheral talent is going to be first year guys and also ran's...it's gonna be interesting out there for sure
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theaardvark
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« Reply #183 on: May 02, 2019, 05:45:05 PM »

Well, let?s see.  In 2012 money, since you want to go there, the US and Canadian dollar were at par, so $400k was $400k in either currency.  In 2018 dollars, $400k CDN is $300k US.  So, ignoring all other factors, any QB collecting a $400k salary in 2012 would need to be collecting $520k CDN to take home the same amount, since 99% of all QBs are Americans and very few permanently repatriate and therefore need to plan for their future in their home currency.  Then taking that currency equivalency and then increasing it by the ratio of the SMS, the same QB would now be making $620k +.

So Calvillo?s value and Reilly/Mitchell are relatively close when considered in their native currency, which also happens to be the currency in which NFL players are paid.


Not talking real dollars, there was a time when CFL players got paid more than NFL players, so Reilly should get $35million, right?

Also, league min back then was similar to what it is today as a % of total cap space.  

Capping QB's at $500k stops the bidding wars that just happened for Reilly.  Edm was willing to pony up what BC did, and Harris was already paid more than $500k... and no doubt got a raise to go to Edm...
 
We have seen teams cut players to make room for QB salary, or in the past, ask QB's to take a paycut so that they can sign players (Harris in 2017 dropped $40k (10%) to let Desjardins sign players).

Caps are in place to stop GM's from shooting themselves in the feet.  NHL has a cap of 8 years for contracts to stop teams from getting stupid.  SMS in the CFL levels the playing field for the have/have not teams.  These limits have purposes, and the runaway bidding wars over 2 or 3 QB's is not beneficial for the league at all.  Where does it end?  With a team paying a QB 25% of the SMS, and 75% of the team on ELC's?  Sure, we want identifiable frontmen for the league, but it would be nice to have other identifiable players...
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Sir Blue and Gold
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« Reply #184 on: May 02, 2019, 05:50:18 PM »

Not talking real dollars, there was a time when CFL players got paid more than NFL players, so Reilly should get $35million, right?

Also, league min back then was similar to what it is today as a % of total cap space.  

Capping QB's at $500k stops the bidding wars that just happened for Reilly.  Edm was willing to pony up what BC did, and Harris was already paid more than $500k... and no doubt got a raise to go to Edm...
 
We have seen teams cut players to make room for QB salary, or in the past, ask QB's to take a paycut so that they can sign players (Harris in 2017 dropped $40k (10%) to let Desjardins sign players).

Caps are in place to stop GM's from shooting themselves in the feet.
 NHL has a cap of 8 years for contracts to stop teams from getting stupid.  SMS in the CFL levels the playing field for the have/have not teams.  These limits have purposes, and the runaway bidding wars over 2 or 3 QB's is not beneficial for the league at all.  Where does it end?  With a team paying a QB 25% of the SMS, and 75% of the team on ELC's?  Sure, we want identifiable frontmen for the league, but it would be nice to have other identifiable players...

They really aren't. A salary cap provides CEOs/owners with cost certainty. In theory, it allows all teams to be competitive. It does not (nor does it try to) stop GMs from overpaying on individual contracts, making bad decisions or prioritizing ineffectively. 
« Last Edit: May 02, 2019, 05:52:17 PM by Sir Blue and Gold » Logged
theaardvark
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« Reply #185 on: May 02, 2019, 05:56:33 PM »

They really aren't. A salary cap provides CEOs/owners with cost certainty. In theory, it allows all teams to be competitive. It does not (nor does it try too) stop GMs from overpaying on individual contracts, making bad decisions or prioritizing ineffectively. 

Sure it does, who are you trying to kid.  GM's can make dumb decisions, and then they have to deal with them.  They can sign a QB to $750K, and then have to cut a star D player.

NHL GM's used to be able to sign 15 year deals, ask @Strombo, they changed that because it was silly.  Had they not, Laine could be discussing a $150million contract right now...
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Sir Blue and Gold
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« Reply #186 on: May 02, 2019, 06:09:47 PM »

Sure it does, who are you trying to kid.  GM's can make dumb decisions, and then they have to deal with them.  They can sign a QB to $750K, and then have to cut a star D player.

You seem to have contradicted yourself or I don't understand whatever it is that makes sense in your head. Salary caps are designed to keep total costs down and to maintain a competitive balance between clubs of various profitabilities (larger market, more established, etc.) They don't often concern themselves with how much any one player can make because the market regulates that on its own. The NHL has a top end, but even McDavid didn't really come close to it, so it's mostly a sanity check and not something GMs have to worry about. If Calgary and BC are lousy (not likely) then the GMs and teams will adjust which could put some downward pressure on QB contracts. Contracts aren't guaranteed after all. If they excel (in large part due to the play of their QBs) then their value will be proven.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2019, 06:13:45 PM by Sir Blue and Gold » Logged
Blue In BC
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« Reply #187 on: May 02, 2019, 06:31:14 PM »

You seem to have contradicted yourself or I don't understand whatever it is that makes sense in your head. Salary caps are designed to keep total costs down and to maintain a competitive balance between clubs of various profitabilities (larger market, more established, etc.) They don't often concern themselves with how much any one player can make because the market regulates that on its own. The NHL has a top end, but even McDavid didn't really come close to it, so it's mostly a sanity check and not something GMs have to worry about. If Calgary and BC are lousy (not likely) then the GMs and teams will adjust which could put some downward pressure on QB contracts. Contracts aren't guaranteed after all. If they excel (in large part due to the play of their QBs) then their value will be proven.

Exactly. The SMS was put in place to ensure competitive balance and prevent rich owners from spending a lot more cumulatively on their roster.  That in itself prevented private teams from just saying to Reilly, here's $1M. Come play here.
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GCn19
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« Reply #188 on: May 02, 2019, 06:35:41 PM »

So, if Riley could only be paid $500k, you think they still dump Solly?

Yes, I think they still dump Solly.
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Blue72
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« Reply #189 on: May 02, 2019, 08:47:59 PM »

Reilly is now 34 and can't take the hits like he did before but still likes to run. Now say it gets hurt and is out for a couple to more games.  Bc saves on the SMS but having to  get rid of some good players to pay one QB and really no backup how will that fill the stands or help the league. As a new GM, spending crazy money (1 MIL) on just a couple guys is not a smart move. Even if he doesn't get hurt but has a couple bad games which he had last year again the team suffers because of lack of vets and more lower paid players.

Now this isn't only BC it also could be EDM as Harris is also being paid big dollars with no real backup. Calgary seems to always find a way to overcome this with a good overall team.
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theaardvark
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« Reply #190 on: May 02, 2019, 08:56:04 PM »

Reilly is now 34 and can't take the hits like he did before but still likes to run. Now say it gets hurt and is out for a couple to more games.  Bc saves on the SMS but having to  get rid of some good players to pay one QB and really no backup how will that fill the stands or help the league. As a new GM, spending crazy money (1 MIL) on just a couple guys is not a smart move. Even if he doesn't get hurt but has a couple bad games which he had last year again the team suffers because of lack of vets and more lower paid players.

Now this isn't only BC it also could be EDM as Harris is also being paid big dollars with no real backup. Calgary seems to always find a way to overcome this with a good overall team.

Hervey isn't a new GM... he's been a GM since 2013...
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blue girl
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« Reply #191 on: May 02, 2019, 09:09:35 PM »

BC wanted Reilly no matter what the cost so of course there were going to be other players released. The only surprise for me was that it came out that they wanted to trade him because you knew then that teams would wait for him to be released.
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Throw Long Bannatyne
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« Reply #192 on: May 02, 2019, 09:15:56 PM »

Reilly is now 34 and can't take the hits like he did before but still likes to run. Now say it gets hurt and is out for a couple to more games.  Bc saves on the SMS but having to  get rid of some good players to pay one QB and really no backup how will that fill the stands or help the league. As a new GM, spending crazy money (1 MIL) on just a couple guys is not a smart move. Even if he doesn't get hurt but has a couple bad games which he had last year again the team suffers because of lack of vets and more lower paid players.

Now this isn't only BC it also could be EDM as Harris is also being paid big dollars with no real backup. Calgary seems to always find a way to overcome this with a good overall team.

Kevin Glenn hasn't yet decided on his new home.  Cheesy
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Blue72
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« Reply #193 on: May 02, 2019, 09:28:54 PM »

Sorry this is Hervey's 2nd year as the BC GM but this is his team that he wants, so taking a chance on one guy and weakening the rest of your team is not that smart of a move. Plus pushing up the price of the QB's salaries in the league also doesn't help the league. Just think what Nichols will ask for next year even if he has a year like last year, he is not a $500,000 QB.
A QB is only as good as the team around him and if they have to spend that kind of money for one guy that weakens the rest of the team. It's guys like Huff that knows how to spend and build a good group of guys.
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66 Chevelle
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« Reply #194 on: May 04, 2019, 01:49:36 AM »

you know, while I may not be sold on everything that Aards mentioned, I do believe, at least in theory, he is right at least in part, there is a need for some type of reform in the CFL in the way they compensate and or provide player benefit from a long term perspective as well as create financial stability for the member clubs and the league as a whole. Aards primarily focused on the player side of the equation but from my point of view one can't be had without the other...

Admittedly, there is no 'silver bullet' or overnjght solutions to the challenges that lie in front of the league, but, doing nothing surely isn't the right answer... and honestly, what 'we' are doing now doesn't seem to be bettering those that are currently less successful from a financial point of view, or, the entire league in regards to fan support overall...

Now, as 'johnny come lately', I won't sit here and try to claim to have a fix, as stated multiple times in this forum alone, many people smarter than I have come on gone and worked to make the CFL the best it can be... what I hope to offer is more of a 'fresh eyes' type of perspective from someone from the outside looking in perspective for your consideration and comments... after all, that's what we do here, think about, debate, provide opinion, etc....

First off, as much as I respect Ambrosie for his forward thinking and willingness to try new things, CFL 2.0 isn't the answer, at least not in the short term. To me, a global solution here isn't the answer, sure, it's icing on the cake in good times and when everyone is flush with cash, but for me it isn't something that is going to increase the fan base significantly enough, soon enough, to help some of the struggling clubs today.  For me, the CFL will have to be saved by the Canadian people as a whole... Canadians are the vested customer here, and rightly so, and the league should be attempting to understand what needs to be done to increase Canadian fan support. Easier said than done, I know...

Personally, I'm not in favor of decreasing the ratio, it doesn't make sense to me to take a Canadian product and intentionally make it less Canadian, lol... However, I don't think you can just add players if they don't deserve to be on the field either... for me, the problem with the ratio is the mind set that comes along with it... teams are only striving to meet the minimums because that is all they are required to do... therefore, there isn't an incentive for teams to further the Canadian product... I know that countless things have been done in the past and we're working with a limited supply currently, but, I have to believe that even within this group we could brainstorm things that haven't been tried before... sure, we could probably come up with 20 or 30 ideas, and probably most would suck, but, all it takes is one or two good ideas that could be built upon that could potentially reap huge rewards... but again, doing basically the same as has been done for recent years isn't making things better...

Ambrosie is looking towards a global solution in assisting Canadian players to become CFL ready, but maybe that reach doesn't have to be so far from home... It seems to be a common thought that Canadian players are at a disadvantage, football wise, due to the lack of access to quality coaches and facilities in Canada for various reasons, so... much like universities do for academic minded students, maybe there is an opportunity to work out something with US schools to create a sports type product much like the foreign exchange student program?  Maybe something could be worked out with some US schools that may not offer a strong curriculum in certain studies where they could go to a Canadian school to study there and in return, Canadian football players could come to the US become part of a stronger sports program?

one of the things that Aards mentioned was creating some sort of salary structure, potentially capping salaries based upon position, etc... I'm actually in favor of this because I don't think you can live by paying 1 player 15% of your overall available funds to pay all players... Today it's at 15%, but where does it stop? and, it's not a huge leap to consider that other key players on a team will believe that they contribute as large a part in overall team success as the QB does and will be wanting significant increases in pay as well... the pat answer to date has been 'well, those things sort of take care of itself' by the theory of 'pigs get fed, hogs get slaughtered', meaning those players can priced themselves right out of a job... but, the league potentially losing a player like Solomon Elimimian because of a team having to make those tough business decisions doesn't help the league... Now, I'm pretty sure that someone will manage to find a way to afford him but I think it speaks volumes to the slippery slope that we may be embarking on in the not to distant future...

To be honest, the league has already placed positional salary caps on some players when you consider that all import players, outside of QBs, play their first 2 years in the CFL as league minimum... this was done out of necessity in order for a team to be able to afford to field a team... maybe the time has come that it needs to take a long hard look at what's going on at the other end of the spectrum as well... because what I see happening is, teams will have a handful of players making good money and then the team will be filled out with the revolving door players that can't play longer than 2 years because no one can afford them...

coming up with a fair and equitable solution for all concerned can actually create opportunity... for starters, doing so could help stabilize a team's roster... as it is now teams get into these bidding wars for key talent and when coupled with the 1 year contracts, teams have half their roster changing almost every year...  creating a structured salary solution could allow teams to hold onto the their draft talent and marquee names and create a team identity for fans to get behind.  At the same time, stabilizing the top end of player salaries could actually mean more money for those that are currently being paid at the bottom end... for me, following sports is as much about following players as it is following a team... I think it could go a long way in helping to growing the fan base as well as I believe the casual fan wants a team that they 'know' and can identify with, basically less player turn year in and year out... while the die hard CFL understands the ratio and can appreciate the complexity it creates for teams to field the best team possible, the causal fan likes the players and wants to see them there for longer than 1 season...

also, by stabilizing a teams roster you have an opportunity to also create more revenue. Not just because you hope to gain a few more fans but also through merchandise sales... it seems to me that fans are reluctant to buy player jerseys primarily because short of maybe 1 or 2 players you don't know if you're favorite is going to be here next year, especially when stitched jerseys are selling for almost $200!  A large part of the NFL league generated revenue is created by merchandise sales... this year along the league split $8 billion dollars, $255M per team, through revenue sharing where a key component to that is merchandise sales... Now I know the CFL isn't the NFL and they will never be able to replicate NFL types of numbers, but you have to believe that if you're looking, that's some pretty low hanging fruit...

for me, when Aards talked about profit sharing, this is what came to mind for me... if you create increased revenue through new sales that is a place where funds could be created to expand other player benefit without placing a strain on teams financially... the players are going to have to look at it from the perspective of 'whats good for the collective' because currently you can slice up and divide something that doesn't exist... this could also remove the need for teams subsidizing other teams out of their profits...  I believe that currently each team keeps their revenue generated by player merchandise, so, there may have to some change there, but it doesn't have to be overnight...

when I was working I found that looking at 'like businesses' or parallel types of service providers was key when considering process improvements or process change, learn from them instead of reinventing the wheel... looking at what the NFL does, taking from what they do right and understanding what they do wrong, has to be of some benefit to the CFL... again, not saying they should copy what they do wholesale, but, they are the single most successful professional league in the world... 

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