I guess it is time to evaluate what the Bombers do this off season to get back and WIN the cup. I think the window on the current team is closing if not closed. It may be time to move on from a number of the older players and bring in some youth and speed. Bighill's injury aside he was slowing down all season. Bighill is nearly if not done. It is time for the Bombers to move on from the hall of famer. I expect Stanley Bryant to retire and Neufeld and Hardrick could also be done. Jake Thomas is another player who could retire. The Bombers secondary is not good enough. Rose is another vet that needs to go. Our punting is not good enough either and that would be another area to upgrade.
Quote from: bwiser on November 20, 2023, 03:47:04 PM
I guess it is time to evaluate what the Bombers do this off season to get back and WIN the cup. I think the window on the current team is closing if not closed. It may be time to move on from a number of the older players and bring in some youth and speed. Bighill's injury aside he was slowing down all season. Bighill is nearly if not done. It is time for the Bombers to move on from the hall of famer. I expect Stanley Bryant to retire and Neufeld and Hardrick could also be done. Jake Thomas is another player who could retire. The Bombers secondary is not good enough. Rose is another vet that needs to go. Our punting is not good enough either and that would be another area to upgrade.
Our punting has been a joke for too long.....the one where we needed a big booming kick we got a line drive straight to the returner to took it back to our 35 and then the Als capitalized. Mike O'Shea is not a Wally Buono and we hang on to players who are past their prime hoping they have enough game left in them to overcome adversity when the chips are down. Well the chips were down and some of our vets failed. The game was eerily similar to our loss last year. Next year BC will represent the west in the GC final and win it....that's my prediction. I really think AB4 is done now along with some other aging vets and it's time to start getting younger. Don't get me wrong, it's been great being a Bomber fan these past 4-5 years, however our time in the sun and being a dominant team I believe is just about over.
Regardless of how next season shakes down I will die forever a Bomber fan!!
IIRC the Bombers secondary only gave up 12 TD's passing in the entire season. However the gave up 3 last night. I'd blame the coaching for that as much as on the personnel. We need from game one our front 4 was not as good as last year. The inability to collapse the pocket and maintain contain on a QB running was not good all year. Essentially a QB run in 2022 and this year did us in.
I question why Gauthier was on the field as much as he was in those critical situations. Again, that falls on coaching decisions, schemes and recruitment or lack thereof.
The 2023 roster ceased to exist last night. Whether we intended that or not is irrelevant.
Some players will choose to retire. Some will be forced to retire or into reduced roles and contracts. Free agency is the giant unknown.
I think the call to trade or cut Collaros is premature but I would like to see him take a $100K cut in salary. It limits the ability to retain across the rest of the roster.
A few players have chronic injury issues like Jeffcoat. He could still have a role but he needs to possibly move to a more limited role as a DI. That assumes we have a " new " starter capable of playing at a high level.
Overall I wasn't impressed with our entire PR group and in the end that came back to bite us.
I complained before the season that an import kicker and global punter had ratio implications which also hurt our game day AR.
In the next few days we'll see all the potential free agents and then how quickly we choose on some players or how they choose for us.
Oliveria's interest in the NFL could mean we don't have him available for 1/2 of the season or longer next year. That's a ratio change pending as a result.
We'll see if we get some players re-signed before the end of 2023 using any SMS money if there is any left. Then it becomes a domino situation as free agency approaches.
Quote from: Lincoln Locomotive on November 20, 2023, 04:05:47 PM
Our punting has been a joke for too long.....the one where we needed a big booming kick we got a line drive straight to the returner to took it back to our 35 and then the Als capitalized. Mike O'Shea is not a Wally Buono and we hang on to players who are past their prime hoping they have enough game left in them to overcome adversity when the chips are down. Well the chips were down and some of our vets failed. The game was eerily similar to our loss last year. Next year BC will represent the west in the GC final and win it....that's my prediction. I really think AB4 is done now along with some other aging vets and it's time to start getting younger. Don't get me wrong, it's been great being a Bomber fan these past 4-5 years, however our time in the sun and being a dominant team I believe is just about over.
Regardless of how next season shakes down I will die forever a Bomber fan!!
For the record you can't predict what happens next year other than opinion. However we can't predict what their roster will look like anymore than we can predict ours. Lions have already lost 2 key players with achilles injuries going into 2024. They could miss the entire season: TJ Lee and D. Hatcher.
Once free agency comes and goes we'll be in a better position to make a more informed opinion that we can today.
Most didn't even expect the Als to reach the Grey Cup is a perfect example. The collapse of the Argos would be another. Critical injuries at critical points in the season are all telling.
Quote from: Blue In BC on November 20, 2023, 04:17:06 PM
For the record you can't predict what happens next year other than opinion. However we can't predict what their roster will look like anymore than we can predict ours. Lions have already lost 2 key players with achilles injuries going into 2024. They could miss the entire season: TJ Lee and D. Hatcher.
Once free agency comes and goes we'll be in a better position to make a more informed opinion that we can today.
Most didn't even expect the Als to reach the Grey Cup is a perfect example. The collapse of the Argos would be another. Critical injuries at critical points in the season are all telling.
Well said. We're barely a day into the off-season, so I think it's beyond premature to try and make any predictions at this juncture.
Let's not get lost in hyperbole and worry; we've seen how this organization bounces back lately.
Quote from: Blue In BC on November 20, 2023, 04:17:06 PM
For the record you can't predict what happens next year other than opinion. However we can't predict what their roster will look like anymore than we can predict ours. Lions have already lost 2 key players with achilles injuries going into 2024. They could miss the entire season: TJ Lee and D. Hatcher.
Once free agency comes and goes we'll be in a better position to make a more informed opinion that we can today.
Most didn't even expect the Als to reach the Grey Cup is a perfect example. The collapse of the Argos would be another. Critical injuries at critical points in the season are all telling.
We we're definitely nicked in our receiver corp yet Demski played his heart out and made critical first downs making his incredible cuts to gain those extra YAC yards. As much as we can't predict what happens in free agency, one thing is certain, other teams will keep improving and despite key injuries to BC, they will be hungry to be better next year. I think we are looking at several key players retiring and Brady who was our life force on offence will be looking for NFL tryouts. I still see us in the playoffs however I just don't see us being as dominant and Zach is showing signs of being past his ultimate prime.
I think our team dominance has peaked and we were thinking the Cup was ours and it, and our "dynasty" status was taken from us by a hungrier and younger team with something to prove,
Quote from: Lincoln Locomotive on November 20, 2023, 04:31:28 PM
We we're definitely nicked in our receiver corp yet Demski played his heart out and made critical first downs making his incredible cuts to gain those extra YAC yards. As much as we can't predict what happens in free agency, one thing is certain, other teams will keep improving and despite key injuries to BC, they will be hungry to be better next year. I think we are looking at several key players retiring and Brady who was our life force on offence will be looking for NFL tryouts. I still see us in the playoffs however I just don't see us being as dominant and Zach is showing signs of being past his ultimate prime.
I think our team dominance has peaked and we were thinking the Cup was ours and it, and our "dynasty" status was taken from us by a hungrier and younger team with something to prove,
Collaros is on the downside but that doesn't really mean much. Fajardo has never been a good QB and he's not on the upside and yet he won the Grey Cup. Team game.
While Collaros didn't play as well as we liked the finger can be pointed at many players and coaches. Essentially we were 1 play away from winning in spite of all the mistakes. I'd count about 5 plays where our guy was beat by their guy and that ultimately decided the game.
It's the nature of the game. No team should be able to succeed on 2nd and 18 and then 3rd and 4th on consecutive plays. Didn't anybody expect us to " win " those two plays? I didn't and I've seen that pattern before. Lousy defensive strategy and execution.
Quote from: Blue In BC on November 20, 2023, 04:13:39 PM
IIRC the Bombers secondary only gave up 12 TD's passing in the entire season. However the gave up 3 last night. I'd blame the coaching for that as much as on the personnel. We need from game one our front 4 was not as good as last year. The inability to collapse the pocket and maintain contain on a QB running was not good all year. Essentially a QB run in 2022 and this year did us in.
I question why Gauthier was on the field as much as he was in those critical situations. Again, that falls on coaching decisions, schemes and recruitment or lack thereof.
The 2023 roster ceased to exist last night. Whether we intended that or not is irrelevant.
Gauthier was in often because Bighill was physically unable to play, to his credit he played well, especially in the area of his expertise, stopping the run.
Quote from: Blue In BC on November 20, 2023, 04:38:39 PM
Collaros is on the downside but that doesn't really mean much. Fajardo has never been a good QB and he's not on the upside and yet he won the Grey Cup. Team game.
While Collaros didn't play as well as we liked the finger can be pointed at many players and coaches. Essentially we were 1 play away from winning in spite of all the mistakes. I'd count about 5 plays where our guy was beat by their guy and that ultimately decided the game.
It's the nature of the game. No team should be able to succeed on 2nd and 18 and then 3rd and 4th on consecutive plays. Didn't anybody expect us to " win " those two plays? I didn't and I've seen that pattern before. Lousy defensive strategy and execution.
I think you're being unfair to Cody....remember when we won the 2019 WF....he was one goal post away from beating us in that game. That was his best game Not winning and then we go on and crush Hamilton in Calgary's GC game. He had the highest completion percentage of all CFL QBs and they went in an 8 game win streak....he played well enough to beat us and make 3 clutch plays in a row to win the GC....he outplayed Zach. He was the MVP in the game....so give him a little credit. I've never been a big fan of his mainly because of his "Jesus" thing however he always had that winning potential and he proved many of us wrong yesterday. I was hoping Zach would finally carry our team on his shoulders and he wasn't up to it and yes it's a team game....but Cody carried his team on his shoulders on that last GC winning drive and he deserves some recognition for it....as does Jason Maas.
I'm hoping O'Shea is able to move on from some vets next season whom seem to be on the downside of their careers. One thing that is a must is signing Dru Brown. He's the future and when was the last time we can say as Bomber fans that we developed our own. Question to the gurus on here, was Collaros's contract guaranteed for the full 3 seasons? Or just the last? Don't get me wrong, I still love Zack, but Dru Brown should be starting games next season.
Quote from: Blue In BC on November 20, 2023, 04:17:06 PM
For the record you can't predict what happens next year other than opinion. However we can't predict what their roster will look like anymore than we can predict ours. Lions have already lost 2 key players with achilles injuries going into 2024. They could miss the entire season: TJ Lee and D. Hatcher.
Once free agency comes and goes we'll be in a better position to make a more informed opinion that we can today.
Most didn't even expect the Als to reach the Grey Cup is a perfect example. The collapse of the Argos would be another. Critical injuries at critical points in the season are all telling.
Love it and well said! Aside from some real lacking roster and PR decisions the staff seems to have a way of attracting top notch talent not to mention finding talent.
Quote from: Lincoln Locomotive on November 20, 2023, 05:54:36 PM
I think you're being unfair to Cody....remember when we won the 2019 WF....he was one goal post away from beating us in that game. That was his best game Not winning and then we go on and crush Hamilton in Calgary's GC game. He had the highest completion percentage of all CFL QBs and they went in an 8 game win streak....he played well enough to beat us and make 3 clutch plays in a row to win the GC....he outplayed Zach. He was the MVP in the game....so give him a little credit. I've never been a big fan of his mainly because of his "Jesus" thing however he always had that winning potential and he proved many of us wrong yesterday. I was hoping Zach would finally carry our team on his shoulders and he wasn't up to it and yes it's a team game....but Cody carried his team on his shoulders on that last GC winning drive and he deserves some recognition for it....as does Jason Maas.
I think Zach takes us down and wins the game if there was a minute and half to go. Two seasons in a row the defense couldn't hold. Both times we had teams in second and long situations that if stopped we would have been raising the cup. Of the starting QBs in the league, Cody's my 10th pick.
Quote from: Lincoln Locomotive on November 20, 2023, 05:54:36 PM
I think you're being unfair to Cody....remember when we won the 2019 WF....he was one goal post away from beating us in that game. That was his best game Not winning and then we go on and crush Hamilton in Calgary's GC game. He had the highest completion percentage of all CFL QBs and they went in an 8 game win streak....he played well enough to beat us and make 3 clutch plays in a row to win the GC....he outplayed Zach. He was the MVP in the game....so give him a little credit. I've never been a big fan of his mainly because of his "Jesus" thing however he always had that winning potential and he proved many of us wrong yesterday. I was hoping Zach would finally carry our team on his shoulders and he wasn't up to it and yes it's a team game....but Cody carried his team on his shoulders on that last GC winning drive and he deserves some recognition for it....as does Jason Maas.
Any play is always a question of whether it's a good offensive play, a bad defensive play or both. He's not a QB that is consistent or capable of long multi play drives. It an all or nothing style. Those QB's rarely succeed.
On one Al touchdown it was a 2 play 65 yard drive. The last drive was about 40 - 45 yards in 2 plays. Bombers held the lead for about 57 minutes of the game until the last drive.
I'd say the Als success fell more on bad defence than good offence. The problem was that those came at just the right moment.
That's not my definition of a good QB.
Quote from: Lincoln Locomotive on November 20, 2023, 05:54:36 PM
I think you're being unfair to Cody....remember when we won the 2019 WF....he was one goal post away from beating us in that game. That was his best game Not winning and then we go on and crush Hamilton in Calgary's GC game. He had the highest completion percentage of all CFL QBs and they went in an 8 game win streak....he played well enough to beat us and make 3 clutch plays in a row to win the GC....he outplayed Zach. He was the MVP in the game....so give him a little credit. I've never been a big fan of his mainly because of his "Jesus" thing however he always had that winning potential and he proved many of us wrong yesterday. I was hoping Zach would finally carry our team on his shoulders and he wasn't up to it and yes it's a team game....but Cody carried his team on his shoulders on that last GC winning drive and he deserves some recognition for it....as does Jason Maas.
Congrats to Cody for having the game of his life on the most important stage.
He's still a terrible starting QB. One game doesn't change his entire career.
Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on November 20, 2023, 05:36:55 PM
Gauthier was in often because Bighill was physically unable to play, to his credit he played well, especially in the area of his expertise, stopping the run.
Yeah but we had Cole and Clement who didn't see as much reps as I thought. Further to that is no depth on PR for the entire season. We were starting about 9 or 10 Canadians.
We should have signed Sankey as a few of us suggested earlier in the season when he was available. Whether he was mostly a DI or rotated with Bighill as he got familiar with the defence as the season progressed, it would have been a sound acquisition. A player sitting on the coach wouldn't be a high additional SMS hit over a Clement for example.
Not only that he wouldn't have been playing against us stuffing the run in the 2nd half.
Quote from: jdrattops on November 20, 2023, 05:55:53 PM
I'm hoping O'Shea is able to move on from some vets next season whom seem to be on the downside of their careers. One thing that is a must is signing Dru Brown. He's the future and when was the last time we can say as Bomber fans that we developed our own. Question to the gurus on here, was Collaros's contract guaranteed for the full 3 seasons? Or just the last? Don't get me wrong, I still love Zack, but Dru Brown should be starting games next season.
50% of his final year is guaranteed.
He is still our starter. There's no point in speculating about Zach at all.
Quote from: jdrattops on November 20, 2023, 05:55:53 PM
I'm hoping O'Shea is able to move on from some vets next season whom seem to be on the downside of their careers. One thing that is a must is signing Dru Brown. He's the future and when was the last time we can say as Bomber fans that we developed our own. Question to the gurus on here, was Collaros's contract guaranteed for the full 3 seasons? Or just the last? Don't get me wrong, I still love Zack, but Dru Brown should be starting games next season.
That's pretty speculative about Brown. He might be a starter somewhere in 2024 or never. Without knowing what the rest of our roster looks like with the supporting cast is nearly as important.
There is already speculation that MBT will return to the CFL. O'Rourke might decide to return as well. So let the musical chairs begin.
It's interesting that we see suggestions about " downside " about this player or that player. Then it turns the thought of trading him to some team for a bunch of top players and the keys to Fort Knox.
You don't think if we cut him, that'd he'd be picked up by several other teams? Trading a player with a large contract not the easiest thing to do either.
Every off season we hear similar suggestions about someone that may appear to be on the downside. It doesn't usually happen. I'd argue that Collaros didn't regress but perhaps our play calling did.
Quote from: Jesse on November 20, 2023, 06:03:21 PM
50% of his final year is guaranteed.
He is still our starter. There's no point in speculating about Zach at all.
Dropping Collaros for Brown as some are suggesting reaks of the Jake Maier buy in made by the Stamps, not a sensible way to transition into unknown territory.
This BO talk about the NFL makes me laugh.
Quote from: Sec223 on November 20, 2023, 07:05:16 PM
This BO talk about the NFL makes me laugh.
Apparently he is adamant but yes it makes me laugh as well.
If I was him I'd try it now too. This window is his only shot. It's a long shot. But logically it makes sense.
Quote from: Sir Blue and Gold on November 20, 2023, 07:32:35 PM
If I was him I'd try it now too. This window is his only shot. It's a long shot. But logically it makes sense.
The question is how long does he wait and does he get any guarantees in any deal. As a potential free agent he could wait to or beyond NFL TC or final roster if he gets a TC offer.
IMO he may not even see an offer in the early days but that doesn't stop him from hoping. That said he may miss the boat trying to return back to the Bombers in late fall for example. Either we've replaced him and are winning or we've been losing and are a struggling team.
It's a risk to him as much as it is with the Bombers.
Quote from: Sir Blue and Gold on November 20, 2023, 07:32:35 PM
If I was him I'd try it now too. This window is his only shot. It's a long shot. But logically it makes sense.
I agree take a shot. I don't think BO has reached his full potential yet, but if he gets a chance take it.
Quote from: Pigskin on November 20, 2023, 07:50:13 PM
I agree take a shot. I don't think BO has reached his full potential yet, but if he gets a chance take it.
NFL always has lots of choices in each draft at the RB position. If he gets a shot take it but odds are one of the worst positions due to supply and demand.
Quote from: jdrattops on November 20, 2023, 06:00:02 PM
I think Zach takes us down and wins the game if there was a minute and half to go. Two seasons in a row the defense couldn't hold. Both times we had teams in second and long situations that if stopped we would have been raising the cup. Of the starting QBs in the league, Cody's my 10th pick.
This years finish was almost identical to the game in Hamilton in 2021. The Bombers had the Tiger Cats in second and long and instead of letting Masoli run for 13 yards, we picked him off to win the game. Hamilton had a chance to tie the game late in the fourth quarter but a play by Nicholls saved the game which sent it to overtime. This year we need a DB to make a play to send it to overtime and Houston gets burnt.
Quote from: bwiser on November 20, 2023, 08:09:27 PM
This years finish was almost identical to the game in Hamilton in 2021. The Bombers had the Tiger Cats in second and long and instead of letting Masoli run for 13 yards, we picked him off to win the game. Hamilton had a chance to tie the game late in the fourth quarter but a play by Nicholls saved the game which sent it to overtime. This year we need a DB to make a play to send it to overtime and Houston gets burnt.
very true. Houston had a rough game and that play cost us the game.
At least we cannot blame Leggio again! :D
Quote from: Jesse on November 20, 2023, 06:01:53 PM
One game doesn't change his entire career.
Eh, I think it changes it a little, especially if that game is the Grey Cup.
Quote from: Cool Spot on November 20, 2023, 08:56:34 PM
Eh, I think it changes it a little, especially if that game is the Grey Cup.
He might be on the perfect team for his skill set....part of his success is his belief in himself....that's not to be underestimated. That defence is one of the better Ds in the CFL and you can win with an adequate QB. They have some great young receivers as well...who burned us. As I said before I'm not a Cody fan...however he got it done and he's a gamer.
If we played them next week, the results could be similar....we were oh so close which is the heart breaking part as our team is very tight....as Adam said "we're family in here"
Brady?s stock is high right now so he will give the nfl a shot and get it out if his system. No way in hell he makes it but go ahead knock yourself out , Johnny A will take full advantage of the opportunity and when Brady comes back I d be running a 2 back system and running jet sweeps, running off tackle with a back helping break contain etc. no team will be prepared for that and we d have 2 very productive backs on the field running all over defenses.
Iam hoping we can get Tyrell Ford for 2024.
Quote from: dd on November 20, 2023, 10:37:58 PM
Brady?s stock is high right now so he will give the nfl a shot and get it out if his system. No way in hell he makes it but go ahead knock yourself out , Johnny A will take full advantage of the opportunity and when Brady comes back I d be running a 2 back system and running jet sweeps, running off tackle with a back helping break contain etc. no team will be prepared for that and we d have 2 very productive backs on the field running all over defenses.
Brady has said it on more than one occasion that he hasn't come near to reaching his full potential and he was our best offensive weapon on Sunday. Apparently Milt Stegall commented that they should have given him the ball 35 times as opposed to 19. He also caught 2 passes, and was by far our most productive offensive weapon. Had we won he would have likely won MVP and MOC as did Andrew Harris in 2019....
So, he really believes in himself and as you say he needs to get this out of his system while he's still young enough and of course the Bombers will wish him well and of course they will take him back should he be a late cut. That would suck the big one for JA27 however and running a Thunder and Lightning package although a tempting option, likely wouldn't play out as we might hope. Poor Johnny has been playing in the shadow of both AH33 and BO20 for what, four years running?
I hope Anthony Bennett can take a big step forward for 2024.
Quote from: Pigskin on November 22, 2023, 04:03:00 PM
I hope Anthony Bennett can take a big step forward for 2024.
He may but he may be hard pressed to even make the roster. I'd think we might look to see who is available in free agency and whether it's affordable etc.
Quote from: Pigskin on November 22, 2023, 04:03:00 PM
I hope Anthony Bennett can take a big step forward for 2024.
It would be nice but he was lucky enough to play the entire season and rarely made an impact, I don't think the ferocious nature of a DE is something that can be easily taught, especially without being physically gifted.
I also wonder if Buck is interested in the Rider HC job? A loss for us if he is. Also would he take Brown with him if he got it as they need a QB? Wasn't Richie Hall going to retire a couple of years ago? He used to live in Regina. All these questions because we lost the cup. ???
Quote from: dd on November 20, 2023, 10:37:58 PM
Brady?s stock is high right now so he will give the nfl a shot and get it out if his system. No way in hell he makes it but go ahead knock yourself out , Johnny A will take full advantage of the opportunity and when Brady comes back I d be running a 2 back system and running jet sweeps, running off tackle with a back helping break contain etc. no team will be prepared for that and we d have 2 very productive backs on the field running all over defenses.
Johnny A is a special teamer.
Quote from: Blue In BC on November 22, 2023, 04:36:00 PM
He may but he may be hard pressed to even make the roster. I'd think we might look to see who is available in free agency and whether it's affordable etc.
I honestly hope he's cut. It means we've actually found more effective pieces. I think Hammy has a few NI DE's.
I, for one, would laugh at either scenario of Pierce or Pierce and Brown going to SK to try and put out that dumpster fire.
Pierce and Brown potentially going elsewhere never hinged on whether or not the Bombers won GC110.
Quote from: Jesse on November 22, 2023, 05:20:08 PM
I think Hammy has a few NI DE's.
I'd love to see Kongbo back in blue and gold.
Quote from: blue_gold_84 on November 22, 2023, 05:21:18 PM
Pierce and Brown potentially going elsewhere never hinged on whether or not the Bombers won GC110.
Nah, it just takes the sting out a little.
Quote from: blue_gold_84 on November 22, 2023, 05:23:16 PM
I'd love to see Kongbo back in blue and gold.
Him or Bennett
Quote from: blue_gold_84 on November 22, 2023, 05:21:18 PM
I, for one, would laugh at either scenario of Pierce or Pierce and Brown going to SK to try and put out that dumpster fire.
Pierce and Brown potentially going elsewhere never hinged on whether or not the Bombers won GC110.
I think the loss sealed the deal for Buck, he probably wasn't going anyway but now he's probably determined to get back to the cup again and win it with Zach. Starting at the bottom is not a very enticing opportunity for any HC, and it can lead to career suicide.
Quote from: Blue In BC on November 22, 2023, 04:36:00 PM
He may but he may be hard pressed to even make the roster. I'd think we might look to see who is available in free agency and whether it's affordable etc.
I know Mason Bennett would like to return to Winnipeg. He had a down year with injuries and very little playing time. At the right price, he could be an excellent pickup.
Receivers:
Signed: Demski 29, Lawler 29, Murphy 24.
Un-signed. Bailey 30, Schoen 27, Woli 28, BOO 27.
PR. Ambles 31, Blackmon 26, Alston 24.
I think if they sign Schoen, they will have to let Bailey and Boo walk.
QB's.
Signed: Collaros 35.
Un-signed: Brown 26, Purkop 30.
it seems like a repeat record in playoffs, teams get aggressive on dline, and Collaros has an "off game"
Has he thrown for more than 250 yards in a grey cup game? His td to interception ratio is way off from the regular season as well. He also seems to turn the ball over in the red zone a number of times.
We should at least look at renegotiating his contract so as to keep Dru Brown.
Quote from: Pigskin on November 22, 2023, 07:13:18 PM
Receivers:
Signed: Demski 29, Lawler 29, Murphy 24.
Un-signed. Bailey 30, Schoen 27, Woli 28, BOO 27.
PR. Ambles 31, Blackmon 26, Alston 24.
I think if they sign Schoen, they will have to let Bailey and Boo walk.
QB's.
Signed: Collaros 35.
Un-signed: Brown 26, Purkop 30.
I don't think Bailey and BOO would break the bank...my question is why resign Lawler, big ticket salary and average production...
Lawler is signed for 2024 at 300k. not sure how much if any is guaranteed, but it is a good question if the money wouldn't be better spent with Schoen, likely we could save 100k for elsewhere . Its unlikely we could sign both of them.
However thuis hasnt been the M. O. of this team to cut signed players
Absolutely money would be better spent on Schoen, no question ther and I d argue it would be better spent retaining Bailey and BOO. He was a bust in my books and at $300 k I d out right cut him if he didn?t agree to a new contract. And that?s the problem when these guys who have 1 decent year, they command the big dollars and then go and lay a giant egg. He did nothing in Edmonton and nothing really more than Demski schoen or Bailey yet he gets the big cheese!?! I don?t think so buh bye
Quote from: dd on November 23, 2023, 12:10:28 AM
I don't think Bailey and BOO would break the bank...my question is why resign Lawler, big ticket salary and average production...
Average production? He had 901 yards in only 12 games, averaging 75 yds per game which is 2nd highest in the league just behind Schoen who averaged 76 YPG! He was 12th overall just behind Demski who played 4 more games. If you take his average YPG and project that to 18 games he would have been first overall. He's an elite receiver and a gamer who gets after it as MOS would say! Somehow we need to sign both Schoen and Lawler which means either Bailey or Woli are likely on the bubble. We thought Bailey was gone last season after we signed Lawler, however he took a steep pay cut to sign with us....mainly because he wanted another shot at a cup and he really likes our locker room and our fans.
Quote from: dd on November 23, 2023, 01:40:25 AM
Absolutely money would be better spent on Schoen, no question ther and I d argue it would be better spent retaining Bailey and BOO. He was a bust in my books and at $300 k I d out right cut him if he didn?t agree to a new contract. And that?s the problem when these guys who have 1 decent year, they command the big dollars and then go and lay a giant egg. He did nothing in Edmonton and nothing really more than Demski schoen or Bailey yet he gets the big cheese!?! I don?t think so buh bye
That's an insane price to pay for any receiver, not sure what Walters was thinking but now he's gotta pay Schoen a similar amount, which is almost impossible.
Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on November 23, 2023, 03:03:45 AM
That's an insane price to pay for any receiver, not sure what Walters was thinking but now he's gotta pay Schoen a similar amount, which is almost impossible.
You may well be right....Dalton was Zach's go to receiver however Kenny is elite as well. Dalton will be looking for well north of 200K as will Kenny.
Lawler was $300k in Edm, but took less here...we can afford some upgrades, will lose some players, this team may look very different next year. Like every year until now. Our scouts bring in good players, we get a few good years out of them, and someone else pays them what they earn. And we bring more in.
Quote from: theaardvark on November 23, 2023, 04:43:31 AM
Lawler was $300k in Edm, but took less here...we can afford some upgrades, will lose some players, this team may look very different next year. Like every year until now. Our scouts bring in good players, we get a few good years out of them, and someone else pays them what they earn. And we bring more in.
He took less for this season, but slides back up for 2024.
With raises demanded for Brady and Dalton, something has to give somewhere. Gonna need our scouts to do a lot more heavy lifting than this past year, because we'll need some rookie minimum contracts to displace some vets.
Quote from: Jesse on November 23, 2023, 11:29:41 AM
He took less for this season, but slides back up for 2024.
With raises demanded for Brady and Dalton, something has to give somewhere. Gonna need our scouts to do a lot more heavy lifting than this past year, because we'll need some rookie minimum contracts to displace some vets.
Rookies in any position are rarely good enough to start their first year, although receivers catch on quicker than most, once in a blue moon they stumble upon a rookie as talented and as smart as Schoen. Good chance they bring Alston back next year and maybe even Agudosi if Schoen leaves.
Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on November 23, 2023, 03:33:51 PM
Rookies in any position are rarely good enough to start their first year, although receivers catch on quicker than most, once in a blue moon they stumble upon a rookie as talented and as smart as Schoen. Good chance they bring Alston back next year and maybe even Agudosi if Schoen leaves.
Yes, the normal transition would have been to see a guy get some playing time at the end of this year and have his role expanded next year. Unless McCrea is that guy (doesn't seem like it), we kind of missed the boat on that opportunity.
There were a few eye brow-raising scouting/roster issues this past year.
Quote from: Jesse on November 23, 2023, 03:37:51 PM
Yes, the normal transition would have been to see a guy get some playing time at the end of this year and have his role expanded next year. Unless McCrea is that guy (doesn't seem like it), we kind of missed the boat on that opportunity.
There were a few eye brow-raising scouting/roster issues this past year.
I'm guessing it's time to move on from McCrae. Seriously doubt Agudosi is brought back. We'll see a dozen rookie receivers brought in for TC. Some will last for only a couple of days and few will make it through TC to be added to the PR.
Depending on whether we lose any or our starters, we may not see any rookie receivers make the game day roster. Who knows. Alston could be the next Schoen or Lawler. I've never seen him practice but a few 2nd year rookies take that next step to become stars.
Quote from: Pete on November 23, 2023, 12:44:05 AM
Lawler is signed for 2024 at 300k. not sure how much if any is guaranteed, but it is a good question if the money wouldn't be better spent with Schoen, likely we could save 100k for elsewhere . Its unlikely we could sign both of them.
However thuis hasnt been the M. O. of this team to cut signed players
then trade him if it means keeping Schoen, we just can't afford to lose him to FA
We are definitely in a conundrum salary cap wise as we managed to get 2 all-star seasons from Dalton in his rookie years at entry level pay. That's why we were able to sign Lawler and albeit he took a pay cut, he was still our highest paid receiver. Brady and Johnny were both signed for 120K and Brady will demand upwards of 200K IF he doesn't make it in the NFL and IF the Bombers keep the "right corp of players" according to Brady.
It's painfully obvious that we likely can't keep all three and Walters should be working on next season now instead of dealing with his own contract, So yeah, we could look a lot different next season.....
McRae is a very good player. Doesn't get the ball thrown much. But when they need a first down he usually got it. We underused alot of players on the practice roster
Quote from: Lincoln Locomotive on November 24, 2023, 05:17:20 PM
We are definitely in a conundrum salary cap wise as we managed to get 2 all-star seasons from Dalton in his rookie years at entry level pay. That's why we were able to sign Lawler and albeit he took a pay cut, he was still our highest paid receiver. Brady and Johnny were both signed for 120K and Brady will demand upwards of 200K IF he doesn't make it in the NFL and IF the Bombers keep the "right corp of players" according to Brady.
It's painfully obvious that we likely can't keep all three and Walters should be working on next season now instead of dealing with his own contract, So yeah, we could look a lot different next season.....
The highest paid RB earned $170K. As a Canadian I'd think Oliveria should get about $190K. More than that is potentially an issue. Build in another $10K-$30K for games paid and or certain goal achievements.
Canadian players are worth more but even then there needs to be a limit.
Quote from: buckzumhoff on November 24, 2023, 05:31:59 PM
McRae is a very good player. Doesn't get the ball thrown much. But when they need a first down he usually got it. We underused alot of players on the practice roster
I like McCrae but still think it's time to move on or at least have significant competition. Unless we lose Oliveria ( and Augustine ) and he has a good chance to become the starter. If he's only only to be a DI does deserve a raise, if so how much compared to a younger, less expensive player with higher upside?
Quote from: Blue In BC on November 24, 2023, 05:40:16 PM
The highest paid RB earned $170K. As a Canadian I'd think Oliveria should get about $190K. More than that is potentially an issue. Build in another $10K-$30K for games paid and or certain goal achievements.
Canadian players are worth more but even then there needs to be a limit.
I'd like to see him in the 180k range.
Quote from: Jesse on November 24, 2023, 05:45:12 PM
I'd like to see him in the 180k range.
That's where I'd like as well but could see him higher. That may be the incentive for him to stay in the CFL and not look southward.
Quote from: Blue In BC on November 24, 2023, 05:42:23 PM
I like McCrae but still think it's time to move on or at least have significant competition. Unless we lose Oliveria ( and Augustine ) and he has a good chance to become the starter. If he's only only to be a DI does deserve a raise, if so how much compared to a younger, less expensive player with higher upside?
McCrae as a starting RB??? I don't think so. The Bomber running game is built on smash mouth football, not dodge, duck, and scoot.
Quote from: Blue In BC on November 24, 2023, 05:49:40 PM
That's where I'd like as well but could see him higher. That may be the incentive for him to stay in the CFL and not look southward.
I would guess min 200k. Harris was just below that and Brady is younger plus the cap has increased since Harris was here.
Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on November 24, 2023, 08:26:35 PM
McCrae as a starting RB??? I don't think so. The Bomber running game is built on smash mouth football, not dodge, duck, and scoot.
I don't think so either but that wasn't quite the point. If our ratio changes to an import RB then all bets are off. I'd rather find a younger rookie on an ELC that has more upside.
Quote from: drahgon on November 24, 2023, 09:55:15 PM
I would guess min 200k. Harris was just below that and Brady is younger plus the cap has increased since Harris was here.
You saw how much the leading RB's in the CFL earn. Aside from having a ratio advantage as a Canadian, more than $200K is too much IMO. THE SMS is increasing but not by that much.
Quote from: Blue In BC on November 24, 2023, 10:12:15 PM
You saw how much the leading RB's in the CFL earn. Aside from having a ratio advantage as a Canadian, more than $200K is too much IMO. THE SMS is increasing but not by that much.
Agreed. I m sure BO is well aware that the situation here is very good for him and I doubt he gets that situation anywhere else--he's a local boy done good, fans love him because he's one of their own, but more importantly, our offensive scheme is designed perfectly to him and his skill sets..its smash mouth all the way here, which is him all the way. No other team in the league pounds the ball like we do, nobody's even close. So I m thinking he's going to do his NFL stint, get cut, and then Walters will make him a fair offer, which he'd better accept, as it won't get any better than right here.
Quote from: dd on November 24, 2023, 11:05:16 PM
Agreed. I m sure BO is well aware that the situation here is very good for him and I doubt he gets that situation anywhere else--he's a local boy done good, fans love him because he's one of their own, but more importantly, our offensive scheme is designed perfectly to him and his skill sets..its smash mouth all the way here, which is him all the way. No other team in the league pounds the ball like we do, nobody's even close. So I m thinking he's going to do his NFL stint, get cut, and then Walters will make him a fair offer, which he'd better accept, as it won't get any better than right here.
The problem is that he might not return from any NFL TC offer until Sept. Money many no longer be available in that range and we may have moved to an import RB ratio change.
Quote from: Blue In BC on November 25, 2023, 01:21:55 PM
The problem is that he might not return from any NFL TC offer until Sept. Money many no longer be available in that range and we may have moved to an import RB ratio change.
oh, for sure. That's what I mean...BO had better fully understand that the situation he has here right now will not get any better anywhere else, in fact, the situation will likely change here if he returns and what once was is no more. If he goes to the NFL, he will be nothing more than PR fodder, and when he comes back, things will be different.
Looks like we're not bringing back Paul Boudreau as STC.
A coaching shake-up is a little unexpected but honestly welcome.
Quote from: Jesse on January 03, 2024, 11:54:39 PM
Looks like we're not bringing back Paul Boudreau as STC.
A coaching shake-up is a little unexpected but honestly welcome.
Our ST s were our weakness this year, this move is not unexpected and I m glad we re going to try and improve there
Quote from: dd on January 04, 2024, 03:36:59 AM
Our ST s were our weakness this year, this move is not unexpected and I m glad we re going to try and improve there
we were abysmal without any return threat after JG was injured and our KO and punt coverage usually resulted in losing the battle of field position. The only bright light on STs was Sergio who had decent numbers albeit not league leading in any categories. I don't think he missed a FG in the last two Grey Cup appearances but I do believe he did miss a PAT.
Slow week for the Bombers. Hopefully some players have been signed but announcements have not been made yet. Lots of work to be done.
Quote from: Lincoln Locomotive on January 04, 2024, 04:46:21 AM
we were abysmal without any return threat after JG was injured and our KO and punt coverage usually resulted in losing the battle of field position. The only bright light on STs was Sergio who had decent numbers albeit not league leading in any categories. I don't think he missed a FG in the last two Grey Cup appearances but I do believe he did miss a PAT.
Our coverage teams struggled all year. Every time we punted I was holding my breath. I am hoping we address this issue for sure, as you're right, we lost the field position battle in most games this year, which makes it tough to battle through.
Quote from: Blue In BC on January 06, 2024, 02:20:03 PM
Slow week for the Bombers. Hopefully some players have been signed but announcements have not been made yet. Lots of work to be done.
I'm pretty sure this time of year is when the front office takes their vacations.
Probably be a slow couple of weeks before anything starts to happen again.
Quote from: Jesse on January 06, 2024, 07:13:50 PM
I'm pretty sure this time of year is when the front office takes their vacations.
Probably be a slow couple of weeks before anything starts to happen again.
Read somewhere CFL winter meetings being held in Nashville, Jan. 7-9.
Coaching changes @ Defense and ST...
https://www.bluebombers.com/2024/01/08/blue-bombers-announce-coaching-staff-changes/?fbclid=IwAR3XbwMuBhNDQDuIpI8dlTnR30D8gIx5aBysPu9hJNjJsxw9_Pd2gOH3YQs
A few things in this article straight from Walters:
- Both Brady and Schoen are attempting to find NFL spots
- They have been not interested in talking about a CFL contract while they do so
- Neither has had a work out yet
- Walters, at some point, will have to move on to other FAs (this seems like a little negotiating through the media to me)
- Dru Brown is expected to go to FA
- Stanley Bryant wants to return!
https://winnipegsun.com/sports/football/cfl/winnipeg-bluebombers/blue-bombers-in-holding-pattern-as-they-wait-on-contract-talks-with-oliveira-schoen
"We do have some young guys in the building that we believe are ready to step up." - Ed Tait
They'll need a calculator, a chainsaw, and a hammer, too, because the Winnipeg Blue Bombers have some serious salary cap maneuvering to do while rebuilding its roster in advance of the Canadian Football League's free agent market opening next month.
Blue Bombers GM Kyle Walters spoke with media via conference call during league meetings in Nashville on Tuesday and, just as he did in his season-ending session last November, outlined the significant challenges facing the organization over the next few weeks.
The club still has 28 pending free agents https://www.cfl.ca/fa24/#BOMBERS following the retirement of Mike Miller on Monday and his promotion to special-teams coordinator, and just 35 days to get that heavy lifting done.
"It's as much about getting younger contractually as much as age-wise," said Walters Tuesday when asked about the converging ideals of roster stability vs. the salary cap. "The younger contracts, the rookie contracts, are obviously much more cap friendly and the more veteran team you have the perception of just getting younger for being younger is important more publicly. But internally, we need younger contracts.
"With a veteran group we've done a pretty good job of minimizing the turnover of the last few years. I anticipate there will be more turnover this year than we've seen in years past."
Walters admitted the re-signings have moved at a slower pace this offseason and pointed to the number of big-ticket stars - among them Brady Oliveira, Dalton Schoen, Stanley Bryant, Jermarcus Hardrick, and Jackson Jeffcoat - still unsigned as key to how the rest of this unfolds.
"Until you can get those guys locked up, it's very difficult, the trickle-down effect of how much money is left after what you can do with the high-point guys," he said. "So, it is a little bit slower this year, for sure. Brady and Dalton are still looking at NFL opportunities and aren't really interested in committing a dollar value until they exhaust all NFL opportunities at the moment.
"Once those higher ones get settled, whether they come back, don't come back, lock into a dollar value, then I think the rest should move along fairly quickly."
As of Tuesday, Oliveira and Schoen have yet to have any NFL workouts scheduled, with defensive backs Demerio Houston (Los Angeles Chargers) and Evan Holm (Minnesota Vikings and Denver Broncos) the only two Blue Bombers to have look-sees from down south.
Asked if there was a scenario where both Oliveira and Schoen could be back this season, Walters was remaining positive amid the uncertainty.
"Sure, it's just how the math all works out. Any scenario you can make work, it's just how do all the other pieces fit in?" he said. "Honestly, I'm not even sure what the final dollar value would be for those guys. Ideally, yes, it would be great to have those two guys back, but at this point I can't even guess what the probability would be.?
Other highlights from the Walters session with the media...
THE O-LINE QUESTION
- Four starters on the O-line from last year remain unsigned in Bryant, Hardrick, Chris Kolankowski and Geoff Gray. Walters when asked if having Liam Dobson and Tui Eli under contract - both Canadians makes signing Kolankowski and Gray 'less of a priority':
"I wouldn't say less of a priority but when you enter an off-season, part of the process at all positions is looking at your roster and if all of the players at a certain position can't come back, how are we situated moving forward? With our Canadian depth on the offensive line, we've picked up some solid depth. We've got guys that the coaches like and we believe can start. We are comfortable with our depth at the offensive line, if everybody can't come back. We do have some young guys in the building that we believe are ready to step up.
Further to the O-line discussion, Walters was asked about the difficulty in getting all five starters from last year back under contract.
"We'll see. With the two American offensive tackles (Bryant and Hardrick), the offensive tackle price-points are going to be high. I've referenced Brady and Dalton, but Jermarcus and Stan are kind of, from a pay-wise standpoint, just a bit below, but still on the upper end of things. It will be a challenge to bring back all seven of our offensive linemen who dressed for games last year, I believe."
THE VALUE OF BAILEY AND WOLITARSKY
- Veteran receivers Rasheed Bailey and Drew Wolitarsky don't put up some of the big numbers of their compadres in the receiving corps, but their value as leaders and players that do some of the heavy lifting among that group has long been highlighted in Bomberland. Still, until some of the big-ticket names get sorted out...
"The recurring theme here will be the same as I've been saying - we like Drew, Rasheed for the points that you referenced; that they're leaders, they're tough, they bring a lot of the stuff behind the scenes that maybe not statistically are as flashy as Kenny and Nic and Dalton, but they're just as valuable in other ways. We'll try to figure out a way to bring them back as well, but the dominos got to start to get rolling here."
ON SERGIO AND JACKSON...
- So many key cogs still unsigned, but two that were specifically asked about on Tuesday were kicker Sergio Castillo and defensive end Jackson Jeffcoat.
Walters on Castillo:
"Sergio had a great year, and we'd love to have him back as well. He was very accurate. As I mentioned earlier, there's so many pieces that need to fall into place at the high-end price points and then everything else will sort itself out. We're in a bit of a waiting pattern at the moment, but we've got plenty of time. It is a little bit slower than normal years, but it's only Jan. 9 today and we've got plenty of time to get this sorted out over the next month.
And on Jeffcoat:
"We'd love him back. He's a good football player. It's just there?s a lot of those high-end price guys we need to get sorted out. It's getting to the point now where is this going to get done or is it not? Because if it's not, we really need to pivot and allocate funds elsewhere. So, we'll be getting to that point in the next few weeks where if there's nothing done with the high, high-end guys you don't want to be left out in the cold, for lack of a back of a better term, of putting all your eggs in a certain basket and it doesn't come through. You'd be left at a bad spot."
THE DRU BROWN WATCH
- The Edmonton Elks signed McLeod Bethel-Thompson this week, Dane Evans recently retired from the B.C. Lions while both Trevor Harris and Bo Levi Mitchell recently had their contracts restructured to remain in Saskatchewan and Hamilton, respectively. That's significant in a nine-time league, but even with that it sounds like the Blue Bombers don't expect to have their No. 2 man behind Zach Collaros back.
"Honestly, I don't think so," Walters said. "I believe Dru and his agent want to go to an organization where it's less about who's going to pay him the most money, I think it's more about where can he go and have the best opportunity to compete with the incumbent quarterback or the other guys under contract to play. My gut tells me even if the Winnipeg football club could afford to match a contract they would think long and hard about the opportunity of where to go."
TYRELL FORD UPDATE
- The Canadian cornerback - who spent 2022 with the Blue Bombers after being drafted by the team in the second round that year - attended training camp with the Green Bay Packers last year. His name came up again on Tuesday.
"He had his workout, had his chance with the Packers and had that little taste of it down there," Walters said. "It's funny, I was just speaking with his agent. They're right in that last bit of 'Are we going to get another NFL opportunity?' He's under contract with us, and they're going to decide I guess if he wants to come back to the CFL or how long they can keep kicking the tires on the NFL."
https://www.bluebombers.com/2024/01/09/once-those-higher-ones-get-settled-whether-they-come-back-dont-come-back-lock-into-a-dollar-value-then-i-think-the-rest-should-move-along-fairly-quickly/
I love when Walters does these pressers. So much information.
Quote from: Jesse on January 10, 2024, 11:43:57 AM
I love when Walters does these pressers. So much information.
Know of any live links?
With the news of Mike Miller and Jordan Younger I wonder if the Bombers take the same approach to players too. We have some young offensive lineman ready to take a step forward. We could probably stand to get a bit younger elsewhere too. Given that the Grey Cup is in Winnipeg in 2025 you probably could come to the conclusion that the team takes this off-season to make some of those changes and fine tune from there.
I agree with most Kyle Walters is awesome with providing information and insight. Does not look good for Dru Brown.
If we lose Holm Ford would be an ideal replacement
I don't think we'll lose Holm. Just a guess though. If we do, we have Jamal Parker who was the plan heading into last year at that half back spot anyway. If we get Ford back the obvious spot would be field corner.
We need to get bigger at the corners, we have the smallest secondary in the cfl. If we keep holm, then we would still likely replace rose/parker and Houston
If we lose Holm, Parker may replace him, but we'd likely need 2 corners
Quote from: Sir Blue and Gold on January 10, 2024, 05:53:06 PM
I don't think we'll lose Holm. Just a guess though. If we do, we have Jamal Parker who was the plan heading into last year at that half back spot anyway. If we get Ford back the obvious spot would be field corner.
Even if we get Ford back it's debatable whether he'd be ready to be a starter. Hard to say whether Holm will be back but I'm hoping he returns as well.
I get what Walter's says about the delay surrounding Oliveria and Schoen and how it impacts other decisions. We can't wait forever but would think discussions are being held with the other potential free agents.
IMO it would be beneficial if Collaros agrees to re-negotiate his current contract.
Quote from: Blue In BC on January 10, 2024, 06:16:19 PM
Even if we get Ford back it's debatable whether he'd be ready to be a starter. Hard to say whether Holm will be back but I'm hoping he returns as well.
I get what Walter's says about the delay surrounding Oliveria and Schoen and how it impacts other decisions. We can't wait forever but would think discussions are being held with the other potential free agents.
IMO it would be beneficial if Collaros agrees to re-negotiate his current contract.
Don't see it, Zach didn't have a down season nor was he injured for a significant portion of the season, these are the main reasons a discount is requested.
Quote from: Pete on January 10, 2024, 06:14:02 PM
We need to get bigger at the corners, we have the smallest secondary in the cfl. If we keep holm, then we would still likely replace rose/parker and Houston
If we lose Holm, Parker may replace him, but we'd likely need 2 corners
Most unlikely statement, all 3 of those players can still do the job and will be better than anyone that challenges them in TC. The Bombers have great secondary depth, not at all worried about replacing the one or two who may sign elsewhere.
Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on January 10, 2024, 03:56:53 PM
Know of any live links?
Haven't seen any video. Just the Tait and Wyman articles.
Brady Oliveira
4h
Hmmm so where will I end up!?
Quote
CFL
@CFL
Jan 8
MOC. Rushing King.
Free Agent!?
Sky is the limit for bradyoliveira in 2024, but where?
https://twitter.com/CFL/status/1744428835343376727
He's becoming Brady the obnoxious.
Obnoxious? Puh-lease.
He believes in himself and is arguably the top FA going into 2024. Nothing about obnoxious about it.
Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on January 10, 2024, 06:24:28 PM
Don't see it, Zach didn't have a down season nor was he injured for a significant portion of the season, these are the main reasons a discount is requested.
Harris and Mitchell both took hair cuts this off season so there is that precedent. Zach has to decide if he is ok being 2-2 in Grey Cups here. I think with what we pay him now we don't get back again. If you want to point at a deficiency I would say both interceptions and that he seems to not be able to scramble for time like he used to do. In fact I'm going to be radical and say it's take a pay cut or we should go with Dru Brown. I expect to be flamed of course but I see other teams getting better while we try to hang on.
Quote from: blue_gold_84 on January 10, 2024, 10:54:04 PM
Obnoxious? Puh-lease.
He believes in himself and is arguably the top FA going into 2024. Nothing about obnoxious about it.
In the tweet, he added a money bag emoji, which isn?t a great look, imo.
Quote from: Jesse on January 11, 2024, 12:13:53 AM
In the tweet, he added a money bag emoji, which isn?t a great look, imo.
Yah, I wish we could post tweets a little more accurately without having to edit for 5 minutes.
Quote from: Waffler on January 10, 2024, 10:56:04 PM
Harris and Mitchell both took hair cuts this off season so there is that precedent. Zach has to decide if he is ok being 2-2 in Grey Cups here. I think with what we pay him now we don't get back again. If you want to point at a deficiency I would say both interceptions and that he seems to not be able to scramble for time like he used to do. In fact I'm going to be radical and say it's take a pay cut or we should go with Dru Brown. I expect to be flamed of course but I see other teams getting better while we try to hang on.
Yes, they're hanging on 3 consecutive first place finishes and 4 GC appearances!
If BLM and Trevor Harris did not accept reductions in pay, there's a good chance they would have been cut. Both spent most of 2023 on the 6 game, participating in only 6 game each and losing the majority of them. How does that relate to Zach having a couple of off games?
What an idiotic post. Zac is the best QB in Canada three fold, and you are hitching he should not be paid?
Yeah, I expected to get flamed because he's won here and we are grateful. We have him 2 more years at 600k per. Will we have the team to surround him for those 2 years is a legitimate question. And if the answer is no, then you go younger now while you have a guy here like Dru Brown and spend the extra where needed. Or do we, as I suspect, go to bat with a weaker over all roster than last year and pray BC is not one win better. We will see I suppose, free agency is not here yet but it seems clear we will be losing a lot of talent.
Quote from: Jesse on January 11, 2024, 12:13:53 AM
In the tweet, he added a money bag emoji, which isn?t a great look, imo.
I agree it's not great look. Social media is by and large a pile of flaming garbage (that's another discussion altogether), but an emoji isn't really obnoxious. FWIW, he is going get paid this off-season.
Quote from: Waffler on January 11, 2024, 02:14:49 PM
Yeah, I expected to get flame...
Well, good. The 2-2 GC record doesn't just fall on the QB's shoulders, BTW.
Statistically, he's still the best QB in the league.
Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on January 10, 2024, 09:40:34 PM
Brady Oliveira
4h
Hmmm so where will I end up!?
Quote
CFL
@CFL
Jan 8
MOC. Rushing King.
Free Agent!?
Sky is the limit for bradyoliveira in 2024, but where?
https://twitter.com/CFL/status/1744428835343376727
He's becoming Brady the obnoxious.
Well, there's the old saying "Go with the team that brung ya."
BO20 is not the player he is today without the WFC. I have no doubt, anywhere else, with any less an Oline, or a mentor to develop under, BO20 does not win MOC or rushing king. Like Cornish before him, he had top Oline in front of him, and if he chooses to go elsewhere, I can't see him repeating his feats with the WFC.
Do I want him to sign elsewhere? Heck no. He is the epitome of "Bomber for Life". He should retire here. Like Andrew should have. Oh, and remember when Walters chose BA20 over the reigning MOC/MOP of the GC?
If he embarks on a Muamba like tour, and starts that crap, it will severely diminish his standing in WPG, both with the team and the fans. If he man's up, takes the highest paycheck a CFL RB if offered this year before such shenanigans, he can stay at home and be a legend, now and into his post CFL career.
I always thought he was a down to earth kinda guy, I sure hope that he is. For his and our sakes.
Quote from: theaardvark on January 11, 2024, 03:27:46 PM
...remember when Walters chose BA20 over the reigning MOC/MOP of the GC?
Uh, what?
Quote from: theaardvark on January 11, 2024, 03:27:46 PM
Well, there's the old saying "Go with the team that brung ya."
BO20 is not the player he is today without the WFC. I have no doubt, anywhere else, with any less an Oline, or a mentor to develop under, BO20 does not win MOC or rushing king. Like Cornish before him, he had top Oline in front of him, and if he chooses to go elsewhere, I can't see him repeating his feats with the WFC.
Do I want him to sign elsewhere? Heck no. He is the epitome of "Bomber for Life". He should retire here. Like Andrew should have. Oh, and remember when Walters chose BA20 over the reigning MOC/MOP of the GC?
If he embarks on a Muamba like tour, and starts that crap, it will severely diminish his standing in WPG, both with the team and the fans. If he man's up, takes the highest paycheck a CFL RB if offered this year before such shenanigans, he can stay at home and be a legend, now and into his post CFL career.
I always thought he was a down to earth kinda guy, I sure hope that he is. For his and our sakes.
That's not an old saying or a new saying. It's not a saying at all. The rest of this post reads as pure entitlement and/or hot garbage. We ran Oliveria hard for two straight years and got a great return on investment. From a production point of view he was totally underpaid last year. He owes the Bombers nothing and quite likely gave the Bombers the best year and a half of his career. Most running backs start declining at age 28.
We either pay him or we don't, it's a team decision, and the business side of football is hard but don't try to make it seem like he needs to stay put out of loyalty to the city, the team, or 'you' as a fan. Such hogwash.
Quote from: blue_gold_84 on January 11, 2024, 02:30:41 PM
I agree it's not great look. Social media is by and large a pile of flaming garbage (that's another discussion altogether), but an emoji isn't really obnoxious. FWIW, he is going get paid this off-season.
Have to agree, Brady is of a younger generation and probably sees making bold tweets as having a bit of fun and nothing more. He also grew up under the influence of the NFL and is probably of the mindset that the CFL is a mere stepping stone to an NFL career, much like Rourke indicated.
Quote from: theaardvark on January 11, 2024, 03:27:46 PM
If he embarks on a Muamba like tour, and starts that crap, it will severely diminish his standing in WPG, both with the team and the fans. If he man's up, takes the highest paycheck a CFL RB if offered this year before such shenanigans, he can stay at home and be a legend, now and into his post CFL career.
I always thought he was a down to earth kinda guy, I sure hope that he is. For his and our sakes.
We don't need any more young guys in this town becoming a team distraction while taking IG or Twitter shots with thier "money phone".....
Brady will get paid, I agree I don't think the money bag is great optics, but I also agree he is of the generation where social media and "flexes" are a normal thing.
Being real here he will be one of if not the highest paid RB in the league this year. I am not sure what that will look like, but one would venture a guess it will be in the 180k to 210k range which would be around a 100% raise, so from that perspective good on him! You have to take into account his agent gets a portion, so really is 160-200ish gross worthy money bags.....Not in my opinion... honestly making sub $200k is well above average but a far cry from flexing money bags....sorry to be the realist but with today's prices, a gross salary of 160k-200k you are not flexing Porsches and fancy houses and diamonds...or money bags..., you are probably able to afford a Subaru and decent 3 bedroom home in Winnipeg, have a full fridge and a small discretionary income left over.... Heck that salary in many places in Canada and you aren't even qualifying for a nice 3 bed detached house even without the Subaru.
In summary he will get a great raise, but unless he makes it into the NFL and sees some actual roster time....which, without even so much as one known tryout thus far is fair to say would be a long shot at best, put the image of money bags away
My 2 cents
Quote from: 3rdand1.5 on January 11, 2024, 05:18:30 PM
Brady will get paid, I agree I don't think the money bag is great optics, but I also agree he is of the generation where social media and "flexes" are a normal thing.
Being real here he will be one of if not the highest paid RB in the league this year. I am not sure what that will look like, but one would venture a guess it will be in the 180k to 210k range which would be around a 100% raise, so from that perspective good on him! You have to take into account his agent gets a portion, so really is 160-200ish gross worthy money bags.....Not in my opinion... honestly making sub $200k is well above average but a far cry from flexing money bags....sorry to be the realist but with today's prices, a gross salary of 160k-200k you are not flexing Porsches and fancy houses and diamonds...or money bags..., you are probably able to afford a Subaru and decent 3 bedroom home in Winnipeg, have a full fridge and a small discretionary income left over.... Heck that salary in many places in Canada and you aren't even qualifying for a nice 3 bed detached house even without the Subaru.
In summary he will get a great raise, but unless he makes it into the NFL and sees some actual roster time....which, without even so much as one known tryout thus far is fair to say would be a long shot at best, put the image of money bags away
My 2 cents
I could see him getting $185k, which would set a new benchmark for running backs. As a comparison William Stanback was the top paid RB last season paying $160k hard money with a Max value of $170k.
Quote from: blue_gold_84 on January 11, 2024, 02:30:41 PM
Well, good. The 2-2 GC record doesn't just fall on the QB's shoulders, BTW.
Statistically, he's still the best QB in the league.
Technically Dru Brown had a 139 rating vs Zach at 112. That was on only 89 attempts though.
I wasn't the one that brought up stats anyway, just wondering where we are getting our money from to stay competitive. I welcome any ideas on that.
What I don't want to see is a good QB, mediocre team scenario. That helps no one but it seems that is where we are headed.
It's inevitable that a player like BO20 is going to, at the very least, explore what opportunities are available to him. He is coming off a stellar year as far as performance is concerned. It would be hard to rationalize anyone not being open to offers. Pretty simple concept IMHO.
Quote from: Sir Blue and Gold on January 11, 2024, 03:42:43 PM
That's not an old saying or a new saying. It's not a saying at all. The rest of this post reads as pure entitlement and/or hot garbage. We ran Oliveria hard for two straight years and got a great return on investment. From a production point of view he was totally underpaid last year. He owes the Bombers nothing and quite likely gave the Bombers the best year and a half of his career. Most running backs start declining at age 28.
We either pay him or we don't, it's a team decision, and the business side of football is hard but don't try to make it seem like he needs to stay put out of loyalty to the city, the team, or 'you' as a fan. Such hogwash.
Did you read the post?
Do you deny we signed him over Harris?
Do you deny that he had an offense anchored by the best Oline in the league, and coached by an OC that schemed for BO20's strength?
Yes, BO20 performed admirably, and more than earned the contract he agreed to. And has earned the paycheck that he will sign for, where ever he signs.
Just saying that he's not going to ge a better opportunity to continue to thrive anywhere else, and that the WFC no doubt will offer him a very competitive contract, which when taking into account the savings of playing at home, and the potential for post season money (which he did get the last 4 seasons, in addition to his contract), should be pretty hard to ignore.
I would never compare his current situation to the one Harris had going to the Argos, Brady is (as far as we know) in good shape and healthy. NFL aspirations aside, there's no better anding spot for him than here.
Its not just loyalty to the city, the team or the fan, but that does factor in (see Rasheed Bailey, Kenny Lawler, and myriad others). There's no denying that he is entitled to sign where he wants, for whatever deal he wants. How one does that, a completely different thing. If he takes the road that players like Muamba/Harris took, he will tarnish his image from a WFC fan standpoint. And it won't help his post career life if he's thinking about staying here and saving puppies full time.
There's more to a deal than just numbers, and no one can offer him the intangibles the WFC club can. He should be careful how he plays these next few months. Or not, his decision.
Quote from: theaardvark on January 11, 2024, 06:25:36 PM
Did you read the post?
Do you deny we signed him over Harris?
Do you deny that he had an offense anchored by the best Oline in the league, and coached by an OC that schemed for BO20's strength?
Yes, BO20 performed admirably, and more than earned the contract he agreed to. And has earned the paycheck that he will sign for, where ever he signs.
Just saying that he's not going to ge a better opportunity to continue to thrive anywhere else, and that the WFC no doubt will offer him a very competitive contract, which when taking into account the savings of playing at home, and the potential for post season money (which he did get the last 4 seasons, in addition to his contract), should be pretty hard to ignore.
I would never compare his current situation to the one Harris had going to the Argos, Brady is (as far as we know) in good shape and healthy. NFL aspirations aside, there's no better anding spot for him than here.
Its not just loyalty to the city, the team or the fan, but that does factor in (see Rasheed Bailey, Kenny Lawler, and myriad others). There's no denying that he is entitled to sign where he wants, for whatever deal he wants. How one does that, a completely different thing. If he takes the road that players like Muamba/Harris took, he will tarnish his image from a WFC fan standpoint. And it won't help his post career life if he's thinking about staying here and saving puppies full time.
There's more to a deal than just numbers, and no one can offer him the intangibles the WFC club can. He should be careful how he plays these next few months. Or not, his decision.
You've reverted to peak Aardvark I see.
Quote from: theaardvark on January 11, 2024, 06:25:36 PM
If he takes the road that players like Muamba/Harris took, he will tarnish his image from a WFC fan standpoint. And it won't help his post career life if he's thinking about staying here and saving puppies full time.
This commentary is gross. You're better than this.
Quote from: Sir Blue and Gold on January 11, 2024, 06:32:04 PM
You've reverted to peak Aardvark I see.
And how. Homie's having a day.
Quote from: blue_gold_84 on January 11, 2024, 06:33:01 PM
This commentary is gross. You're better than this.
And how. Homie's having a day.
Question. After his antics, visiting every other CFL town, snubbing the WFC that drafted and developed him, would you have welcomed back Muamba? Granted, his actions were over the top, and Brady hasn't even scratched the surface of what Henoc did, but I know I never wanted to see Muamba in blue and gold again. Regardless his talent. And if he came back to the city and opened a business, I wouldn't frequent it.
Brady has been a team player, and a true Bomber great, biding his time while AH33 had the spotlight, and stepping up his game in AH33's absence. I'd just hate him to hurt that unnecessarily.
Quote from: theaardvark on January 11, 2024, 07:40:09 PM
Question. After his antics, visiting every other CFL town, snubbing the WFC that drafted and developed him, would you have welcomed back Muamba? Granted, his actions were over the top, and Brady hasn't even scratched the surface of what Henoc did, but I know I never wanted to see Muamba in blue and gold again. Regardless his talent. And if he came back to the city and opened a business, I wouldn't frequent it.
Brady has been a team player, and a true Bomber great, biding his time while AH33 had the spotlight, and stepping up his game in AH33's absence. I'd just hate him to hurt that unnecessarily.
Muamba went to the NFL for a while and returned to the CFL with an ostensibly inflated ego. His free agent tour was laughable and he didn't even consider the beleaguered 2015 Blue Bombers, so your question isn't worth answering because there is no comparison to be made with regard to Oliveira's current situation.
I can't imagine most athletes give a rip what fans think of them or the decisions they make in order to serve their interests in a profession that can be harsh and unforgiving.
You can personalize any and all of it however you choose.
Quote from: blue_gold_84 on January 11, 2024, 07:53:40 PM
Muamba went to the NFL for a while and returned to the CFL with an ostensibly inflated ego. His free agent tour was laughable and he didn't even consider the beleaguered 2015 Blue Bombers, so your question isn't worth answering because there is no comparison to be made with regard to Oliveira's current situation.
I can't imagine most athletes give a rip what fans think of them or the decisions they make in order to serve their interests in a profession that can be harsh and unforgiving.
You can personalize any and all of it however you choose.
Really? I can tell you that running into Showtime Sheed this spring at the stadium for one of the events, he was super pumped by the fans coming to him and thanking his for staying and choosing to play for us rather than just chasing cash. I know, he stayed for his brothers, but the look on his face when the fans showed appreciation, he certainly "gave a rip".
Not saying all players do, but quite a few are not playing just for the $$$, all things being close to equal.
Brady, as a home town boy, with his contributions to date and in the future, could live high off the hog in Winnipeg for a long, long time if he chose to stay. If that legacy is not important to him, then sure, "Where will I land" is perfectly fine.
With Olivera its also just a way of negotiating, if a team thinks you only want to play for them, they're going to take advantage of it.
As a player you want to create a competitive demand for your services. Once he signs we'll all welcome him with open arms
Quote from: Pete on January 11, 2024, 10:15:07 PM
With Olivera its also just a way of negotiating, if a team thinks you only want to play for them, they're going to take advantage of it.
As a player you want to create a competitive demand for your services. Once he signs we'll all welcome him with open arms
Walters is the last guy you have to play coy with, the last guy that will play that game of "Oh, every team wants me, you need to pay more!". If anything, it seems like he'd say "OK, here's what I'll pay, notice its the same as what I offered before, and if you can't get a better deal before I sign someone to fill that position, the offer stands. But once I fill the spot, all bets are off, and THAT deal goes away, and we start negotiating from scratch."
Harris got lucky that Pinball signed him after we filled his spot with Brady. I have no doubt Brady can find a deal elsewhere in the league for whatever Walters is currently offering, but he will make a lot less if he just makes the same.
Andrew kind of salvaged his later career as an elder statesman. I thought he was in decent shape, contributed when asked. He looked good. Now not sure he would want to keep doing football. He has to be hurting. But in the role the Argos used him he looked great. Keep on going old timer!
Quote from: DM83 on January 13, 2024, 04:42:51 PM
Andrew kind of salvaged his later career as an elder statesman. I thought he was in decent shape, contributed when asked. He looked good. Now not sure he would want to keep doing football. He has to be hurting. But in the role the Argos used him he looked great. Keep on going old timer!
Harris looked and played like an old man last season because he is one. Bombers made the right call 100% to move on after his refusal to workout and prove his physical condition. If he plays this season it will be a massive mistake. Don't tarnish your career by hanging on too long and look a fraction of your former self. Aging happens to everyone.
AH33 is already retired, heading to a coaching position in BC junior...
https://3downnation.com/2023/02/10/argos-rb-andrew-harris-to-become-head-coach-of-cjfls-vancouver-island-raider-in-2024/
Ards?really.
cFL back up or bc Junior league head coach?
If he?s done, which I thought he was, two years ago. However last year, as a part-time back up, he looked good.
I agree he should fade away, if he is done. Living in BC, pretending to be a Junior coach, with little previous experience managing the off field and on requirements????an unappreciated job.
Clearly no traditional job prospects off the field, that I have heard. Living the dream ? I am sure he could be a representative for some company but is he wired that way?
I have never met him. Just an opinion. I respect his story and wish him the best.
I am still upset he dissed us when he left but I have to defend him now. He was a first class guy here in the Peg, especially I remember him being everywhere during the CFL week we hosted. Working hard and helping where he could. He did work here in sales, vehicles. I think he is coaching junior because he wants to. Wish him well.
Quote from: Waffler on January 14, 2024, 10:27:46 PM
I am still upset he dissed us when he left but I have to defend him now. He was a first class guy here in the Peg, especially I remember him being everywhere during the CFL week we hosted. Working hard and helping where he could. He did work here in sales, vehicles. I think he is coaching junior because he wants to. Wish him well.
AH33 is the biggest part of why we finally got to, and won, the cups. Check out my avatar. WPG owes him everything. I love Brady, and everything these days is Brady this Brady that... but look at the 107 & 108 cups: when it mattered most in the 4th Q AH33 got those extra effort yards-after-contact. He put us in 2nd & short, or bailed us out of 17 yard holes. In 109 & 110, in the same situations, Brady got stuffed. Sure, there's other things that were different, but when it came down to putting the team and game on their back, Andrew got it done. And that's just the on-field differences he made. He was clearly also the heart of the team in the LR and pep talks. I don't think we ever recovered from that loss.
I think he'll be great coaching junior, and maybe he'll help shape the next AH. I just pretend his time in TOR never existed, as I'm sure he will when it boils down to it.
Comical revisionist history. The baseless assumptions are equally hilarious. Yeah, I'm sure the guy will just forget about his time with the Argos where he managed to win another championship over his former team. Jee-zus.
Quote from: DM83 on January 14, 2024, 09:20:05 PM
Ards?really.
cFL back up or bc Junior league head coach?
If he?s done, which I thought he was, two years ago. However last year, as a part-time back up, he looked good.
I agree he should fade away, if he is done. Living in BC, pretending to be a Junior coach, with little previous experience managing the off field and on requirements????an unappreciated job.
Clearly no traditional job prospects off the field, that I have heard. Living the dream ? I am sure he could be a representative for some company but is he wired that way?
I have never met him. Just an opinion. I respect his story and wish him the best.
"As our new Head of Football Operations, Head Coach Andrew Harris brings a wealth of experience and expertise to the team, and we are thrilled to have him at the helm. His passion for the sport and commitment to developing the next generation of football stars is unmatched, and we know that he will lead the VI Raiders to new heights in the years to come."
https://www.viraiders.ca/staff
Quote from: Waffler on January 14, 2024, 10:27:46 PM
I am still upset he dissed us when he left but I have to defend him now. He was a first class guy here in the Peg, especially I remember him being everywhere during the CFL week we hosted. Working hard and helping where he could. He did work here in sales, vehicles. I think he is coaching junior because he wants to. Wish him well.
Divorce is ugly. I don?t hold anything he said at the time against him, he spoke his mind. He?s doing what he wants to do now and best to him
Quote from: blue_gold_84 on January 15, 2024, 12:27:09 AM
Comical revisionist history. The baseless assumptions are equally hilarious. Yeah, I'm sure the guy will just forget about his time with the Argos where he managed to win another championship over his former team. Jee-zus.
In 30 years when AH is sitting telling his grandchildren about his football career, TOR will be a glossed over blip. He'll talk about BC and WPG. He spent a zillion years in BC and WPG vs a tiny blip of 2 seasons with TOR, mostly in the tub, playing almost no games and taking even less snaps, and suffering with his team a humiliating EDF defeat in 2023.
Sure, he likes having stuck it to us in 2022. Guaranteed. But in the big scheme of things it's his long stints he'll remember most fondly.
Say what you want, I don't think his heart is, or every will be, in TOR. He went there because they wanted to pay him and he didn't want to retire.
Quote from: TecnoGenius on January 14, 2024, 11:14:25 PM
AH33 is the biggest part of why we finally got to, and won, the cups. Check out my avatar. WPG owes him everything. I love Brady, and everything these days is Brady this Brady that... but look at the 107 & 108 cups: when it mattered most in the 4th Q AH33 got those extra effort yards-after-contact. He put us in 2nd & short, or bailed us out of 17 yard holes. In 109 & 110, in the same situations, Brady got stuffed. Sure, there's other things that were different, but when it came down to putting the team and game on their back, Andrew got it done. And that's just the on-field differences he made. He was clearly also the heart of the team in the LR and pep talks. I don't think we ever recovered from that loss.
I have the same impression, which has little to do with their on-field performance as they are/were both great players and did everything they physically could to win football games. The difference is in their attitude.
I get the impression Brady is well liked on the team but comes across as a Jr. partner (maybe due to his age and lack of experience), he worked well with the O-line but was not considered to be a member of their club, and probably didn't receive invites to their BBQ's. His recent remarks contain no sense of brotherhood or loyalty to his teammates, it's pretty much all about him.
Harris had an old school iron will akin to Mike Tyson, when he ran onto the field there was no doubt he was in charge and he was leading them into war, win or lose. In taking the leadership role, he took a lot of pressure off Zach and Nichols, allowing them to focus on their difficult jobs, without having to carry the extra burden of motivating and keeping everyone in line and on target. You could call it innate confidence to get the job done, Harris carried it in his personality and deep within his bones.
Quote from: TecnoGenius on January 15, 2024, 02:52:11 AM
In 30 years when AH is sitting telling his grandchildren about his football career, TOR will be a glossed over blip. He'll talk about BC and WPG. He spent a zillion years in BC and WPG vs a tiny blip of 2 seasons with TOR, mostly in the tub, playing almost no games and taking even less snaps, and suffering with his team a humiliating EDF defeat in 2023.
Sure, he likes having stuck it to us in 2022. Guaranteed. But in the big scheme of things it's his long stints he'll remember most fondly.
Say what you want, I don't think his heart is, or every will be, in TOR. He went there because they wanted to pay him and he didn't want to retire.
He still won a championship with the Argos and has that hardware and memories for the rest of his life. Just because he may look back more fondly on his time here or in BC doesn't mean he'll just gloss over a part of his career when he talks about it.
Nobody said anything about where is heart is, either. What abysmal reading comprehension.
Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on January 15, 2024, 03:00:50 AM
...[Harris] took a lot of pressure off Zach and Nichols, allowing them to focus on their difficult jobs, without having to carry the extra burden of motivating and keeping everyone in line and on target. You could call it innate confidence to get the job done, Harris carried it in his personality and deep within his bones.
Oliveira's done the same thing for Collaros over the past two seasons.
To imply Oliveira hasn't acted like a leader is patently absurd. And a tweet doesn't negate his leadership qualities.
in positive news it looks like Lawlers contract has been restructured giving us a saving of 25k. (285k vs 310k),which similar to others actually gives him more money due to bonus structure.
Not a lot but still helps
https://3downnation.com/2024/01/16/kenny-lawler-restructures-contract-with-winnipeg-blue-bombers/
$250/260K would have been nice. But, thanks KL for the $25K it will help with the contracts of Woli, Hallett, and JA27.