Blue Bombers re-sign linebacker Shayne Gauthier
WINNIPEG, MB., January 25, 2023 - The Winnipeg Blue Bombers today announce the club has agreed to terms on a one-year contract extension with Canadian linebacker Shayne Gauthier. He was scheduled to become a free agent next month.
Gauthier (5-10, 223; Laval University; born: February 20, 1992, in Dolbeau-Mistassini, QC) returns for a seventh season with the club in 2023. A fourth-round selection, 28th overall, by the Blue Bombers in the 2016 CFL Draft, Gauthier has suited up for 81 games with the club over six years and has not missed a contest in the last three seasons.
He posted career-high numbers in defensive tackles in 2021 and 2022, recording 28 tackles last season and registering the first two quarterback sacks in his six years with the Blue Bombers while also adding five more tackles on special teams.
Gauthier totalled 130 tackles during his four years at Laval and was also a two-time RSEQ All-Star while earning CIS Second-Team All-Canadian honours as a senior.
He was productive in 2022. Welcome back. Good depth / rotation player.
Welcome back good depth guy. Consistent performer.
It would be nice to hear a little bit more about some of these long-time Bombers that get little media attention, like Gauthier, Miller and Thomas who are rarely if ever get interviewed.
"This is where I want to be" theme continues with the Shayne Gauthier signing...
....Gauthier lives and works in Winnipeg year-round and is happy to call the city home. That comfort level, and his growth since he first arrived seven years ago, was mammoth in his decision to re-sign.
"After the year I sat down and thought about all these years and how I have become a different man since I got here," he said. "I've grown up a lot over these years.
"Thinking about going somewhere else... that's pretty hard for me. I just can't picture it in my head because of what we've built here since '16 and we started winning. I've seen this team grow a lot and with what we've done I want to keep doing it.
"It's hard for me to imagine being in another uniform. And a lot of people who are close to me and follow me can't see me being anywhere else, either."....
https://www.bluebombers.com/2023/01/25/its-hard-for-me-to-imagine-being-in-another-uniform-gauthier-returns-for-7th-season/?fbclid=IwAR2tEMQ4gSdogbicDFXtwN_qQAP-OixEBcWvYYoD9swKI_3BkwwoGrwfyGE
Gauthier might be one of the smartest guys on the ST field. At least a few times he's quietly saved entire games by taking the perfect angle to a breakaway returner. He senses things before anyone else does, and he's fast to get to the ball.
Plus he played a lot of D snaps lately and he's not a gimmee for O's. Solid, and important, depth. What more could you ask for?
Before last season a couple people suggestioned he could be replaced. Not a chance will retire a Bomber. Excellent ball player in the role he plays. Hope we get Briggs signed, excellent balance rotating these two run vs. Pass.
Quote from: pjrocksmb on January 25, 2023, 11:22:56 PM
Before last season a couple people suggestioned he could be replaced. Not a chance will retire a Bomber. Excellent ball player in the role he plays. Hope we get Briggs signed, excellent balance rotating these two run vs. Pass.
I still think that is true for both Gauthier and Briggs. Changes happen every season and room has to be made for draft choices making the AR. Both still have some value but both are role players on the downside of their careers.
Gauthier did come off his best season but Briggs came off possibly his worst. That said he might still be re-signed as well.
As much as you like, teams cannot keep everybody forever. Note that I also said that Miller and Benson could have been casualties for 2023 but both were re-signed. They both can still play at a high level but where and when do you draw the line on players 30 and older?
None of these players are going to be high SMS guys but each will earn more than a rookie draft choice. SMS is cumulative across the roster.
As O'Shea said, some hard decisions are going to be needed. While that's easier to do with imports but it does also apply to Canadians. Popularity is not the main criteria.
Quote from: TecnoGenius on January 25, 2023, 11:06:38 PM
Gauthier might be one of the smartest guys on the ST field. At least a few times he's quietly saved entire games by taking the perfect angle to a breakaway returner. He senses things before anyone else does, and he's fast to get to the ball.
Plus he played a lot of D snaps lately and he's not a gimmee for O's. Solid, and important, depth. What more could you ask for?
We probably don't win the 2019 Western Final if not for his alert special teams play late in the game that saved a certain TD.
Quote from: Blue In BC on January 26, 2023, 12:59:38 PM
I still think that is true for both Gauthier and Briggs. Changes happen every season and room has to be made for draft choices making the AR. Both still have some value but both are role players on the downside of their careers.
Gauthier did come off his best season but Briggs came off possibly his worst. That said he might still be re-signed as well.
As much as you like, teams cannot keep everybody forever. Note that I also said that Miller and Benson could have been casualties for 2023 but both were re-signed. They both can still play at a high level but where and when do you draw the line on players 30 and older?
None of these players are going to be high SMS guys but each will earn more than a rookie draft choice. SMS is cumulative across the roster.
As O'Shea said, some hard decisions are going to be needed. While that's easier to do with imports but it does also apply to Canadians. Popularity is not the main criteria.
Good take, yes we will lose a few bodies. That's what others said in the past, new draft picking pushing the old guard out which does happen. I'm like Dave Ritchie, love me a vet.
Interesting take on Gauthier's play agree. Didn't notice that Briggs was that weak. I think he requires a healthy and productive group around him to be effective. Tell me more about your take on his season, I'm interested as your analysis tends to be deeper than mine and most. Thanks for the input.
Quote from: pjrocksmb on January 26, 2023, 03:50:04 PM
Good take, yes we will lose a few bodies. That's what others said in the past, new draft picking pushing the old guard out which does happen. I'm like Dave Ritchie, love me a vet.
Interesting take on Gauthier's play agree. Didn't notice that Briggs was that weak. I think he requires a healthy and productive group around him to be effective. Tell me more about your take on his season, I'm interested as your analysis tends to be deeper than mine and most. Thanks for the input.
We all like veteran players because we know what they can do on a consistent basis. They have the experience to minimize the mistakes we might see with a rookie that could have more long term upside.
Regarding Briggs: In 2021 he filled in fairly well at WIL when Wilson was injured and saw more reps on defence than Gauthier. Look at the 2021 stats versus 2022 for each. Also notice Gauthier was more prominent on ST's in both seasons.
In 2022 when Wilson was injured we saw Gauthier become the replacement start at WIL instead of Briggs. He took more reps at MLB as well when Bighill got a few breaks.
Cadwallader is the more recent player added as a Canadian LB and Maruo ( potential free agent global LB ) taking up the slack. Both have more DT's and ST's than Briggs. Just IMO I think either of those might be more suitable to rotate into the MLB or even WIL on the depth chart: younger and a little stockier than Briggs. They were on the field more.
Now that doesn't mean Briggs won't be re-signed but I can also see why that might not happen. It's not really an SMS issue although we'd save a few bucks on a rookie.
No way to tell what positions we decide to draft in 2023. Who we want versus who is available when we draft will be decided on draft day. Just on the surface I'd think we'd want to draft at DT or DE if quality players are available when our turn comes up.
We released Rene and Thompson, then lost Ford to the NFL. In that sense we're less deep in the depth chart for Canadian DB's who play a lot of ST's along with LB candidates.
I don't know much if anything about the 2023 candidates coming into the picture. Our draft position will be lower due to our Grey Cup appearance etc etc.
As far as Gauthier I think we get good value for money even though I don't know what he earns. He has made some game saving plays and that says a lot about his effort if not for his athleticism.
EDIT: I see form the 2023 draft rankings there are 3 LB's in the 16 - 18 position so one might be available when we make our 2nd pick. If we choose to add a depth player at LB. No LB's are ranked very high at the moment.
Quote from: Blue In BC on January 26, 2023, 04:23:41 PM
Regarding Briggs: In 2021 he filled in fairly well at WIL when Wilson was injured and saw more reps on defence than Gauthier. Look at the 2021 stats versus 2022 for each. Also notice Gauthier was more prominent on ST's in both seasons.
In 2022 when Wilson was injured we saw Gauthier become the replacement start at WIL instead of Briggs. He took more reps at MLB as well when Bighill got a few breaks.
Haven't we played Briggs at MIKE too? For some reason I recall comments to the effect of Briggs being a "QB of the D" (usually gets put at MIKE) if Bighill isn't in. If Bighill goes down and out at halftime in a game, who takes his place? For some reason I'm thinking it's Briggs, not Gauthier or Maruo.
It's not an athletic/size/speed thing, it's a brain thing. Looking at our GC depth chart my hunch is that's Briggs. My point being that if one of the NAT LBs is the clear MIKE if Biggie goes down, then I'm thinking you are re-signing that player, all else being equal.
Luckily Biggie basically never gets knocked out of a game, so we don't have to think too hard about such things.
Looking at the CFL's Free Agent link, there are still many very good players currently available and many will likely be still available come February 14th. Could be an interesting few days after the deadline.
Quote from: TecnoGenius on January 27, 2023, 04:43:21 AM
Haven't we played Briggs at MIKE too? For some reason I recall comments to the effect of Briggs being a "QB of the D" (usually gets put at MIKE) if Bighill isn't in. If Bighill goes down and out at halftime in a game, who takes his place? For some reason I'm thinking it's Briggs, not Gauthier or Maruo.
It's not an athletic/size/speed thing, it's a brain thing. Looking at our GC depth chart my hunch is that's Briggs. My point being that if one of the NAT LBs is the clear MIKE if Biggie goes down, then I'm thinking you are re-signing that player, all else being equal.
Luckily Biggie basically never gets knocked out of a game, so we don't have to think too hard about such things.
Briggs did play at MLB more in 2021 but in 2022 we saw Gauthier more. Like I said, look at the DT's for both in both seasons. Briggs did get reps on defence but it seemed Gauthier was used more as the rotation player.
If you look at the depth chart, Gauthier was shown as the back up at MLB in the Grey Cup. In other games he was shown as the starter when Wilson was out. In some of those games Maruo was shown as back up at MLB.
While depth charts are not always correct, I think that did indicate Briggs fell more to 3rd man and not 2nd man up in 2022 more often than not in reality.
He's still a veteran voice on defence even if he's spending more time on the bench. I'm not saying he should be cut but it could go either way as new blood is added.
Another great re-signing. He's a solid and versatile asset to the team.
He is a solid contributor and a beast on teams. His game/season saving tackle was epic.
Its guys like this that make the backbone of an O'Shea team, sure, we see the highlight reels of the stars, but it's guys like these that are the spirit of the lockerroom and sidelines, and give the 110% that O'Shea demands...
Great signing.
Quote from: Blue In BC on January 27, 2023, 01:44:14 PM
Briggs did play at MLB more in 2021 but in 2022 we saw Gauthier more. Like I said, look at the DT's for both in both seasons. Briggs did get reps on defence but it seemed Gauthier was used more as the rotation player.
If you look at the depth chart, Gauthier was shown as the back up at MLB in the Grey Cup. In other games he was shown as the starter when Wilson was out. In some of those games Maruo was shown as back up at MLB.
While depth charts are not always correct, I think that did indicate Briggs fell more to 3rd man and not 2nd man up in 2022 more often than not in reality.
He's still a veteran voice on defence even if he's spending more time on the bench. I'm not saying he should be cut but it could go either way as new blood is added.
Gauthier is quite a bit heavier than Briggs, I think they use him more on downs when run stopping is important, Briggs is more mobile and better used on throwing downs.
Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on January 27, 2023, 04:50:22 PM
Gauthier is quite a bit heavier than Briggs, I think they use him more on downs when run stopping is important, Briggs is more mobile and better used on throwing downs.
On throwing downs we'd use an extra DB or Bighill would stay on the field. Bighill is very good in coverage and at time even drops into a near spot at safety.
While it's true that Briggs might be better in coverage than Gauthier, how often would we use him in that role?
Quote from: Blue In BC on January 27, 2023, 05:10:39 PM
On throwing downs we'd use an extra DB or Bighill would stay on the field. Bighill is very good in coverage and at time even drops into a near spot at safety.
While it's true that Briggs might be better in coverage than Gauthier, how often would we use him in that role?
Sorry, I meant to say on downs when Bighill isn't on the field.
Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on January 27, 2023, 06:14:03 PM
Sorry, I meant to say on downs when Bighill isn't on the field.
That was my point. I wouldn't expect Bighill to be off the field on throwing downs. I'd expect an interior DL to come off and an extra DB come on. On running downs we might see Gauthier added and a DL possibly coming off in order to show more of a 34 defence at times.
Briggs missed 6 games and only had 3 DT's. Gauthier had 28 DT's and Maruo had 14. I know Gauthier started several games at WIL but Briggs didn't start any.
Quote from: Blue In BC on January 27, 2023, 09:13:50 PM
Briggs missed 6 games and only had 3 DT's. Gauthier had 28 DT's and Maruo had 14. I know Gauthier started several games at WIL but Briggs didn't start any.
Didn't Briggs get his bell rung, and that's why he was out? Hazy memory. I didn't realize Briggs was used so little in '22 on D compared to '21. Does Gauthier have the "football IQ" to be the D-controlling MIKE in place of Biggie?
I must admit that Biggie kind of let me down in the GC. Both Oullette TD runs, and the game-winning 19 yard Kelly run were things that Biggie should have been sniffing out. Even if he wasn't going to be the tackler, he should have been directing others to those areas. I think the 2nd Oullette run Biggie had a chance to make the stop but whiffed. Granted, not many are making that all-alone open-field tackle, but it's disappointing nonetheless. We had great difficulty on the outside runs (our achilles heel?). Hall takes some of the blame, too. We'll never know exactly how much to blame Hall vs Biggie.
Still, no one I'd rather have than Biggie, but heeds to control things a bit better. And we don't have a succession plan in place at MIKE. If Biggie gets injured or retires, we're in FA hell and might be looking at a Hurl-esque scenario. Luckily, I bet Biggie will give plenty of notice before retiring so as to not leave us in the lurch.
Quote from: TecnoGenius on January 28, 2023, 05:02:16 AM
Didn't Briggs get his bell rung, and that's why he was out? Hazy memory. I didn't realize Briggs was used so little in '22 on D compared to '21. Does Gauthier have the "football IQ" to be the D-controlling MIKE in place of Biggie?
I must admit that Biggie kind of let me down in the GC. Both Oullette TD runs, and the game-winning 19 yard Kelly run were things that Biggie should have been sniffing out. Even if he wasn't going to be the tackler, he should have been directing others to those areas. I think the 2nd Oullette run Biggie had a chance to make the stop but whiffed. Granted, not many are making that all-alone open-field tackle, but it's disappointing nonetheless. We had great difficulty on the outside runs (our achilles heel?). Hall takes some of the blame, too. We'll never know exactly how much to blame Hall vs Biggie.
Still, no one I'd rather have than Biggie, but heeds to control things a bit better. And we don't have a succession plan in place at MIKE. If Biggie gets injured or retires, we're in FA hell and might be looking at a Hurl-esque scenario. Luckily, I bet Biggie will give plenty of notice before retiring so as to not leave us in the lurch.
I wouldn't want to see Gauthier as any longer term replacement for Bighill due to injury. My expectation was that Wilson would take on that role and we move someone into his WIL position. His injury threw that out the window and Bighill survived the season without any serious injury.
That said, I think Bighill did have a lingering injury which limited him in several games.
In the end I was disappointed in the import depth with Cole and Cooper. What I couldn't understand is why Clements wasn't the immediate 1st choice to replace the starter at either WIL or MLB. He didn't have a horrible season but we choose going Canadian at times. Clements also missed 6 games.
Can't really complain about the overall results with the win / loss record and a defence giving up lowest points total. It just seemed odd to me. Musical chairs and everybody was used at times.
I personally really like how everyone on our D or at least most get reps. I think that's the backbone of our strengthon defense, Hall's mixes up his schemes and vets stay fresh. Need a few young fresh faces on D this year to continue our dominace and to slowly replace some of our vets. We will really feel it when Biggie retires. Wilson will help. Can't wait for preseason to evaluate our future.
Quote from: Blue In BC on January 28, 2023, 02:01:27 PM
I wouldn't want to see Gauthier as any longer term replacement for Bighill due to injury. My expectation was that Wilson would take on that role and we move someone into his WIL position. His injury threw that out the window and Bighill survived the season without any serious injury.
I've seen no hints Wilson was the placeholder for MIKE. I don't think he's played even one snap in the middle? Something you remember that I don't? He also never gets depth-charted there. He's too small for MIKE.
I've also seen no indication that Wilson can be the brains of the D. Wilson is great, but at his assigned role, no?
I'm not sure what the backup plan ever was the last 2+ years. In any case, we bet on Biggie playing every game, and he pretty much has. All that flexibility training does wonders!
Quote from: TecnoGenius on January 29, 2023, 04:50:26 AM
I've seen no hints Wilson was the placeholder for MIKE. I don't think he's played even one snap in the middle? Something you remember that I don't? He also never gets depth-charted there. He's too small for MIKE.
I've also seen no indication that Wilson can be the brains of the D. Wilson is great, but at his assigned role, no?
I'm not sure what the backup plan ever was the last 2+ years. In any case, we bet on Biggie playing every game, and he pretty much has. All that flexibility training does wonders!
In 2019 Wilson primarily was at the weak-side linebacker spot, but also in the middle when Adam Bighill missed time earlier in the year.
Quote from: ModAdmin on January 29, 2023, 06:17:17 AM
In 2019 Wilson primarily at the weak-side linebacker spot, but also in the middle when Adam Bighill missed time earlier in the year.
Also Wilson is 6'1", 221, and Bighill is 5'10", 223. So i would say big enough to play MIKE.
Quote from: Pigskin on January 29, 2023, 06:41:59 AM
Also Wilson is 6'1", 221, and Bighill is 5'10", 223. So i would say big enough to play MIKE.
He looks smaller out there! He looks more like a SAM to me compared to, say, Ian Wild who looked beefier. How is it that Wilson is so honkin' fast then?? Wow. I'm even more impressed. I guess that also explains Wilson's great run-stopping: He's like Mr. Hidden Beef.
I forgot Biggie missed some '19 games. Guess I need to go rewatch early 2019 too! Not a big ask, it's far and away my fave Bomber season ever.
I started rewatching 2022 the other night, want to focus on Schoen. I'm in the pre-season game at the mo, and I can see why we kept McCrae and promoted Brown. Darn shame we didn't have a place for Borsa as 3rd NAT RB. That kid showed some promise. As a Regina boy you'd think SSK would take a sniff...
Quote from: TecnoGenius on January 29, 2023, 10:19:03 AM
He looks smaller out there! He looks more like a SAM to me compared to, say, Ian Wild who looked beefier. How is it that Wilson is so honkin' fast then?? Wow. I'm even more impressed. I guess that also explains Wilson's great run-stopping: He's like Mr. Hidden Beef.
I forgot Biggie missed some '19 games. Guess I need to go rewatch early 2019 too! Not a big ask, it's far and away my fave Bomber season ever.
I started rewatching 2022 the other night, want to focus on Schoen. I'm in the pre-season game at the mo, and I can see why we kept McCrae and promoted Brown. Darn shame we didn't have a place for Borsa as 3rd NAT RB. That kid showed some promise. As a Regina boy you'd think SSK would take a sniff...
Lol, Ian Wild would have been the smallest MLB in the league. Definitely never looked beefier than Wilson.
Quote from: Jesse on January 29, 2023, 01:55:07 PM
Lol, Ian Wild would have been the smallest MLB in the league. Definitely never looked beefier than Wilson.
He was 6'1" 220 lbs and he did in fact play MLB at times for the Bombers. In fact was almost the identical size as Wilson who is same height but 1 lb heavier.
I wonder if the Bombers have any interest in one or both of the Herman-Reed brothers as local kids. Seem to have some upside.
So at the end of the day, Mr. Wilson has played MLB in the past, and in fact is big enough to play there. My concern with Mr. Wilson is him staying healthy. He just hasn't play that much in the past to seasons.
Quote from: Blue In BC on January 29, 2023, 05:17:43 PM
He was 6'1" 220 lbs and he did in fact play MLB at times for the Bombers. In fact was almost the identical size as Wilson who is same height but 1 lb heavier.
I wonder if the Bombers have any interest in one or both of the Herman-Reed brothers as local kids. Seem to have some upside.
I don't know how accurate Wilson's listed weight is, but I don't believe for a minute Ian Wild ever played at 220 pounds. His listings are all over he was 195 in college, and I saw listings at 205 and 208. The 220 sounds like roster PR. Wilds time at MLB was a case study in undersized linebackers.
As far as the Herdman-Reeds, the local connection is nice, but I don't think either one of them adds value over Gauthier and Briggs. They have had opportunities to start and they seem stuck in the Sam Hurl zone - exactly between starter and back up status.
Quote from: the paw on January 29, 2023, 07:25:30 PM
I don't know how accurate Wilson's listed weight is, but I don't believe for a minute Ian Wild ever played at 220 pounds. His listings are all over he was 195 in college, and I saw listings at 205 and 208. The 220 sounds like roster PR. Wilds time at MLB was a case study in undersized linebackers.
As far as the Herdman-Reeds, the local connection is nice, but I don't think either one of them adds value over Gauthier and Briggs. They have had opportunities to start and they seem stuck in the Sam Hurl zone - exactly between starter and back up status.
Justin Herman is a few years younger and played well on ST's. His ST's were more in 2022 than Briggs in total over the last 3 years. Nobody is expecting Briggs or the Reed's to be starters.
Justin has 3 more DT's than Briggs in 48 less games played. Just as an FYI.
Quote from: the paw on January 29, 2023, 07:25:30 PM
I don't know how accurate Wilson's listed weight is, but I don't believe for a minute Ian Wild ever played at 220 pounds. His listings are all over he was 195 in college, and I saw listings at 205 and 208. The 220 sounds like roster PR. Wilds time at MLB was a case study in undersized linebackers.
As far as the Herdman-Reeds, the local connection is nice, but I don't think either one of them adds value over Gauthier and Briggs. They have had opportunities to start and they seem stuck in the Sam Hurl zone - exactly between starter and back up status.
Sherrit was also an undersized MLB in Edmonton. I like my WLB and MLB to be at least 220lbs.
Quote from: CrazyCanuck89 on January 30, 2023, 03:56:47 PM
Sherrit was also an undersized MLB in Edmonton. I like my WLB and MLB to be at least 220lbs.
JC Sherritt was a pretty good LB. Only 5'9" 218lbs.
109 games, 507 DT, 45 ST, 15 sacks, 14 Int, 1TD, 17 FF.
Quote from: Pigskin on January 29, 2023, 06:49:29 PM
So at the end of the day, Mr. Wilson has played MLB in the past, and in fact is big enough to play there. My concern with Mr. Wilson is him staying healthy. He just hasn't play that much in the past to seasons.
I still believe the presence of Wilson on a much cheaper contract was the reason Bighill took such a massive paycut to stay with the team in 2021, I think Walters was prepared to let him go considering the $260K he was scheduled to earn that season. Luckily they agreed to a renegotiated deal at 115K, which was bargain basement for an all-star caliber MLB. So yes, I too believe Wilson could play MLB or almost any other position they slotted him including Safety, he has unbelievable athletic talent.
Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on January 30, 2023, 05:36:18 PM
I still believe the presence of Wilson on a much cheaper contract was the reason Bighill took such a massive paycut to stay with the team in 2021, I think Walters was prepared to let him go considering the $260K he was scheduled to earn that season. Luckily they agreed to a renegotiated deal at 115K, which was bargain basement for an all-star caliber MLB. So yes, I too believe Wilson could play MLB or almost any other position they slotted him including Safety, he has unbelievable athletic talent.
I wonder if Wilson will get any consideration at SAM if we don't re-sign Darby. With the change to the hash marks in 2022, the WIL and SAM became a little more similar. Wilson is very quick and has great football IQ.
Of course I'm still hoping we can re-sign Darby but we might have more options to fill our WIL already on the roster ( Clements ) for example.
Quote from: Blue In BC on January 30, 2023, 05:41:48 PM
I wonder if Wilson will get any consideration at SAM if we don't re-sign Darby. With the change to the hash marks in 2022, the WIL and SAM became a little more similar. Wilson is very quick and has great football IQ.
Of course I'm still hoping we can re-sign Darby but we might have more options to fill our WIL already on the roster ( Clements ) for example.
Too valuable at WIL, many can fit in at SAM, not terribly impressed with Clements play last season, he was persistent but rarely made the big plays when needed.
Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on January 30, 2023, 07:21:48 PM
Too valuable at WIL, many can fit in at SAM, not terribly impressed with Clements play last season, he was persistent but rarely made the big plays when needed.
Harder to fill and find a player at SAM than at WIL. Clements is not as good but wasn't taking 1st string reps in practice. He may improve in his 2nd Bomber season. In any case it's a trade off in where to put the best players.
Quote from: Pigskin on January 30, 2023, 04:37:53 PM
JC Sherritt was a pretty good LB. Only 5'9" 218lbs.
109 games, 507 DT, 45 ST, 15 sacks, 14 Int, 1TD, 17 FF.
My bad I thought he was smaller. It also depends where he made those tackles on the field. You want a stud in the middle, like a Muamba.
Quote from: CrazyCanuck89 on January 30, 2023, 08:10:43 PM
My bad I thought he was smaller. It also depends where he made those tackles on the field. You want a stud in the middle, like a Muamba.
I just scrolled through the player list at cfl.ca and the WIL and MLB guys are almost universally around 220 (plus or minus). There are a handful of guys in 230-245 range. Muamba is listed at 230 but I seem to remember him playing over 240 when he first came back from the NFL.
There are some lighter WILs in the 210 range, although a lot of those are Canadians who play a lot of ST.
Quote from: Blue In BC on January 30, 2023, 07:45:45 PM
Harder to fill and find a player at SAM than at WIL. Clements is not as good but wasn't taking 1st string reps in practice. He may improve in his 2nd Bomber season. In any case it's a trade off in where to put the best players.
But we've been so good at finding good SAMs in the past decade!! It's our WILL that usually isn't too hot. Wilson is our first "great" WILL in a decade for sure. I loved Wild, but he was never "great".
I would think the opposite of what you say is true. How many great WILLs are there league-wide? Simoni? Who else. Judge when he plays WILL?
We just finished talking about how big/heavy Wilson is. That would make him an even worse SAM. WILL is still mostly about the run stop, even with the field changes. We suffered those 3 devastating runs (2 TD + Kelly) often on the weak side partly because Wilson was not in the game.
SAM still has to be able to keep up with the best SBs at times.
If/when Wilson is good to go again, no way he's not at WILL. And if Darby doesn't pan out at SAM, worst case is we find a way to get Maston or Rutledge playing again.
Now... if you're talking Canadian depth that can play SAM in a pinch... there you might have something. We are usually ok with DI/NATs to pinch hit at WILL, but we almost never have a NAT SAM on the depth chart.
Quote from: TecnoGenius on January 31, 2023, 10:57:20 AM
But we've been so good at finding good SAMs in the past decade!! It's our WILL that usually isn't too hot. Wilson is our first "great" WILL in a decade for sure. I loved Wild, but he was never "great".
I would think the opposite of what you say is true. How many great WILLs are there league-wide? Simoni? Who else. Judge when he plays WILL?
We just finished talking about how big/heavy Wilson is. That would make him an even worse SAM. WILL is still mostly about the run stop, even with the field changes. We suffered those 3 devastating runs (2 TD + Kelly) often on the weak side partly because Wilson was not in the game.
SAM still has to be able to keep up with the best SBs at times.
If/when Wilson is good to go again, no way he's not at WILL. And if Darby doesn't pan out at SAM, worst case is we find a way to get Maston or Rutledge playing again.
Now... if you're talking Canadian depth that can play SAM in a pinch... there you might have something. We are usually ok with DI/NATs to pinch hit at WILL, but we almost never have a NAT SAM on the depth chart.
Who are all these great SAM's that the Bombers found? Edmonton found Maston, we traded to get Darby. Rutledge signed in the XFL after getting released.
OTOH Bombers found Santos -Knox and he continues to be a dominant LB. Currently he's moved to MLB but was primarily a WIL in Winnipeg. Wild was better than you give credit.
BTW, Kramdi is our Canadian back up at SAM.
Have you been watching the same team as me?
Quote from: Blue In BC on January 31, 2023, 01:29:26 PM
Who are all these great SAM's that the Bombers found? Edmonton found Maston, we traded to get Darby. Rutledge signed in the XFL after getting released.
OTOH Bombers found Santos -Knox and he continues to be a dominant LB. Currently he's moved to MLB but was primarily a WIL in Winnipeg. Wild was better than you give credit.
BTW, Kramdi is our Canadian back up at SAM.
Have you been watching the same team as me?
"Finding" players includes scouting other rosters and trading for players. What we see and what others see is often different. I have no issue with picking up players other teams originally scouted and recruited, and consider them "found".
Our scouts and player development always seem to find the players we need, or coach up players into what we need. Which is why whe you lose a Chungh, Dejarlais, Santos-Knox, its next man up, and we don't seem to miss a beat...
Quote from: theaardvark on January 31, 2023, 04:35:59 PM
"Finding" players includes scouting other rosters and trading for players. What we see and what others see is often different. I have no issue with picking up players other teams originally scouted and recruited, and consider them "found".
Our scouts and player development always seem to find the players we need, or coach up players into what we need. Which is why whe you lose a Chungh, Dejarlais, Santos-Knox, its next man up, and we don't seem to miss a beat...
Revisionist history. We've found good rookies at WIL more readily than at SAM which is the opposite of what you said. You can't say we find players we need to replace and then suggest we couldn't find a new player at WIL to support your argument.
We found Bowman, Wild, Knox, Santos-Knox and Wilson to fill the position of WIL.
My point being it's easier to find a player at WIL than at SAM and that SAM is a more critical position on defence. In the past 2 seasons we've used Briggs, Gauthier and Clements to fill in while Wilson was injured.
Now whether Wilson is suited to play SAM is an entirely different question. Because he has very good speed and excellent football IQ, I think he might have that skill set. However the immediate solution is to re-sign Darby rather than make a switch.
I think we're likely to look at free agency for Sam lb or look to bring in someone new
For some reason Darby hasn't been a priority and little has been said about him
Quote from: Pete on January 31, 2023, 06:00:28 PM
I think we're likely to look at free agency for Sam lb or look to bring in someone new
For some reason Darby hasn't been a priority and little has been said about him
We can't tell what the team's position of Darby is at the moment. He may have said he intends to leave or wants more than we expect to pay. He's no different than knowing what's going on with Demski, Bailey, Sayles or Grant. Each may be the next to re-sign or the 1st to leave.
At the moment there are a lot of potential free agents at nearly every position. IIRC about 175 potential free agents left.
I dreaded the tampering period in the past, but I'm thinking it may favour us this year, in defining what the price tag for players like Demski, Couture, Bailey and Darby will be. Having that information makes heading into FA much more defined.
And I think Walters is one of the best GM's in the CFL when he has all the information. And he has the advantage of our culture and our HC...
Quote from: Blue In BC on January 31, 2023, 01:29:26 PM
Who are all these great SAM's that the Bombers found? Edmonton found Maston, we traded to get Darby. Rutledge signed in the XFL after getting released.
OTOH Bombers found Santos -Knox and he continues to be a dominant LB. Currently he's moved to MLB but was primarily a WIL in Winnipeg. Wild was better than you give credit.
BTW, Kramdi is our Canadian back up at SAM.
I listed the very good SAMs WPG has had in the last decade in another thread (or this one?). Leggett, Maston, Darby, Rutledge: all very very good SAMs.
I forgot about JSK, so you got one on me there. But I'd posit that JSK and Wilson were our only "league-top-5" WILLs in the last decade. Wild was good and a fan fave, but never a top-5 guy. No team was dying to woo Wild away from WPG.
Kramdi is just a NAT kid (for now) and cannot serve in a long-term fill-in role if our starting IMP SAM goes down.
Quote from: theaardvark on January 31, 2023, 04:35:59 PM
"Finding" players includes scouting other rosters and trading for players. What we see and what others see is often different. I have no issue with picking up players other teams originally scouted and recruited, and consider them "found".
Aards is 100% correct here and I don't know why you are bashing him. No one (to my knowledge) was trying to make the discussion about "finding raw rookies". "Find" in this discussion meant brining the right guys into WPG, whether FA, DP, trades, sniping cut players, or (yes) rookies from the USA. Forgot about "find". Change it to the word "hire".
And I still contend we have an easier time, and do a better job at "hiring" WILL than SAM, in the last decade. At the very, very worst, they are equal. But in no way is "hiring" a good WILL easier than SAM. The ultimate, main reason for this is SAM is almost a glorified DB who is often slightly bigger than the other DBs. WILL is a completely different skillset, even with the field change.
Quote from: Blue In BC on January 31, 2023, 05:42:48 PM
Revisionist history. We've found good rookies at WIL more readily than at SAM which is the opposite of what you said. You can't say we find players we need to replace and then suggest we couldn't find a new player at WIL to support your argument.
Not talking "rookies". Ignore the word rookies.
Quote from: Blue In BC on January 31, 2023, 05:42:48 PM
We found Bowman, Wild, Knox, Santos-Knox and Wilson to fill the position of WIL.
Last decade only (i.e. mostly MOS/KW tenure). Wild was decent/good, but only JSK and Wilson were/are great, and coveted by other teams. Knox was meh, where is he now? What did he do after leaving here?
Quote from: Blue In BC on January 31, 2023, 05:42:48 PM
My point being it's easier to find a player at WIL than at SAM and that SAM is a more critical position on defence. In the past 2 seasons we've used Briggs, Gauthier and Clements to fill in while Wilson was injured.
Now you're conflating 2 different ideas. Yes, SAM is a more critical position, except maybe come GC time (see 2022 GC). Not many would argue that. But it still doesn't prove your first point.
And no one is talking about just "finding players"... we're talking about finding
great players! I still contend we've had more great SAMs in the last decade than WILLs. And when we're down a SAM we seem to go off and FA or scout or snipe another great SAM right away. Look how fast we solved the 2x Maston achilles disasters!
Sure, you can find any old schmoe to fill in at WILL. Maybe Hurl's available. That's a meaningless thing to discuss.
Actually forget about all this talk, just look at 2022! We were short Wilson nearly immediately and we suffered at WILL all year and into the GC!! We had decent replacements, but no one nearly as good as Wilson, and it may have cost us the GC. Now compare with SAM: we lost Maston right away for the whole season and we found a very good replacement in Rutledge, who played most of the season games and did nearly as well as Maston would have IMHO. No one picked on our SAM, which is usually an indication of weakness. Teams
were picking on the weak-side flat all year against us. So in 2022 what position was it hard for us to excel at... WILL, not SAM.
SAMs and DBs in general seem to "grow on trees" down south and always seem in abundant supply. The league goes through a whack ton of them every year. Even the good ones quietly come and go. I don't see that same kind of churn or overall higher level of talent with WILLs. When teams find great ones they tend to hang onto them. They are more like MIKEs that way.
Quote from: Pete on January 31, 2023, 06:00:28 PM
I think we're likely to look at free agency for Sam lb or look to bring in someone new
For some reason Darby hasn't been a priority and little has been said about him
It's weird. Darby always looks extremely happy to be here, or be back here, or to be playing here, every time I see him on camera. I definitely got the impression he was glad to be back in blue&gold last in the season.
It could be that we only have $100k allocated for SAM and Darby wants $130k. And maybe The Mafia doesn't think that extra $30k buys them their money's worth? If Rutledge played out this way in 2022, then maybe KW is right! Except for the abrupt end to his career he was doing great.
But I would hope WPG has another great SAM idea in the hopper (Maston??) for if/when we lose Darby. Is it worth the savings to not just go with the proven commodity? If I'm KW, I probably sign Darby and pay the premium. However, if I was KW I'd probably go $1M over the SMS every year, so...
Some talk about Mercy Maston. He's played 3 regular season games with the Bombers in 3 years. In back to back years he's had season ending injuries in TC. I am not sure I would put my money on MM again this season. I like Darby and he is very versatile. But the $$ have to fit into our cap space.
Quote from: TecnoGenius on February 01, 2023, 05:02:42 AM
I listed the very good SAMs WPG has had in the last decade in another thread (or this one?). Leggett, Maston, Darby, Rutledge: all very very good SAMs.
I forgot about JSK, so you got one on me there. But I'd posit that JSK and Wilson were our only "league-top-5" WILLs in the last decade. Wild was good and a fan fave, but never a top-5 guy. No team was dying to woo Wild away from WPG.
Kramdi is just a NAT kid (for now) and cannot serve in a long-term fill-in role if our starting IMP SAM goes down.
Last decade only (i.e. mostly MOS/KW tenure). Wild was decent/good, but only JSK and Wilson were/are great, and coveted by other teams. Knox was meh, where is he now? What did he do after leaving here?
Two names forgotten in this debate are Anthony Gaitor and Khalil Bass. Gaitor played most of 2 seasons at SAM with the Bombers and was adequate to good, he decided to leave the team when O'Shea wanted to move him to another position to accommodate Mercy Maston mid-season 2019.
Bass was the ying to Wild's yang and had 2 very good years in Wpg. bouncing between WIL and MLB during the Hurl years, before leaving the team in 2017 F.A. for Ottawa. His career pretty much went downhill once he left the Bombers.
Quote from: Pigskin on February 01, 2023, 03:03:17 PM
Some talk about Mercy Maston. He's played 3 regular season games with the Bombers in 3 years. In back to back years he's had season ending injuries in TC. I am not sure I would put my money on MM again this season. I like Darby and he is very versatile. But the $$ have to fit into our cap space.
Was just looking at that, he's listed as playing 6 games in 2019 plus the 3 playoff games.
Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on February 01, 2023, 04:42:40 PM
Was just looking at that, he's listed as playing 6 games in 2019 plus the 3 playoff games.
The CFL has him list as playing for the Bombers on: Aug 8th, Aug 15, and then he sat out until Oct.25. So that would be 3 regular season games. Then he played in the 3 playoff games for a total of 6 games.
The gap between Aug15 and Oct 25, was this another injury???
There is a lot of straw man-ish debate in the WIL vs SAM recruiting issue, and without debunking each of the erroneous claims point by point, I would offer the following observations:
1. Wild was a great WIL, as good or better than Kyrie Wilson, IMHO. In addition to three very strong seasons in the 70 tackle range, he was a consistent playmaker. He leveraged his time here into an offer from the Steelers, something none of our other WILs have seemed to be able to do. He was also a high performer on ST and longsnapper for a bit. His time at MLB was less dynamic, and I feel his career tapered off because his smaller size and physical style of play wore him out sooner.
2. I think it is "easier" to find WIL players because typically when a player comes out of college as a LB, he fits in as a LB in the CFL. It's apples to apples as a transition. In the case of SAM, we are converting DBs, so there is a bit more trial and error. I think we have been successful at both positions, but we have probably tried more candidates at SAM to arrive at a good place.
3. Part of the perception around SAM might flow from Hefney's refusal to play there, and then Gaitor's drama. These may have contributed to the perception of difficulty. I thought Clint Kent was very good there, Leggett was probably the best. Brandon Stewart stunk when tried there, Jovon Johnson did it for a couple of games and it was clearly not his optimal use. Some DBs fit there, but a lot don't.
Quote from: the paw on February 01, 2023, 09:23:11 PM
There is a lot of straw man-ish debate in the WIL vs SAM recruiting issue, and without debunking each of the erroneous claims point by point, I would offer the following observations:
1. Wild was a great WIL, as good or better than Kyrie Wilson, IMHO. In addition to three very strong seasons in the 70 tackle range, he was a consistent playmaker. He leveraged his time here into an offer from the Steelers, something none of our other WILs have seemed to be able to do. He was also a high performer on ST and longsnapper for a bit. His time at MLB was less dynamic, and I feel his career tapered off because his smaller size and physical style of play wore him out sooner.
2. I think it is "easier" to find WIL players because typically when a player comes out of college as a LB, he fits in as a LB in the CFL. It's apples to apples as a transition. In the case of SAM, we are converting DBs, so there is a bit more trial and error. I think we have been successful at both positions, but we have probably tried more candidates at SAM to arrive at a good place.
3. Part of the perception around SAM might flow from Hefney's refusal to play there, and then Gainey's drama. These may have contributed to the perception of difficulty. I thought Clint Kent was very good there, Leggett was probably the best. Brandon Stewart stunk when tried there, Jovon Johnson did it for a couple of games and it was clearly not his optimal use. Some DBs fit there, but a lot don't.
You're point in item # 2 was my point. That was why I queried whether Wilson could be / should be considered a candidate to move to SAM from WIL. A couple of posters felt that it was more difficult to find a WIL than a SAM and I strongly disagreed.
I don't know whether Wilson would make a good SAM. It was just the thought that if he was capable and we lose Darby, I'd rather have a rookie WIL than a rookie SAM. Wilson is very fast and has a high football IQ. IMO those are critical components for a good SAM although not the only ones.
Very probable we bring in a bunch of candidates in the DB/SAM group. This happens for every TC. We might even find one in free agency since there are some very good ones that might reach free agency.
Again, this is only and issue / question if we don't re-sign Darby.
Quote from: Blue In BC on February 01, 2023, 10:27:53 PM
You're point in item # 2 was my point. That was why I queried whether Wilson could be / should be considered a candidate to move to SAM from WIL. A couple of posters felt that it was more difficult to find a WIL than a SAM and I strongly disagreed.
I don't know whether Wilson would make a good SAM. It was just the thought that if he was capable and we lose Darby, I'd rather have a rookie WIL than a rookie SAM. Wilson is very fast and has a high football IQ. IMO those are critical components for a good SAM although not the only ones.
Very probable we bring in a bunch of candidates in the DB/SAM group. This happens for every TC. We might even find one in free agency since there are some very good ones that might reach free agency.
Again, this is only and issue / question if we don't re-sign Darby.
While I agree that WILs are easier to find, I have seen no evidence that Wilson is a viable SAM candidate. He's bulkier, and while he's fast for a WIL, he's doesn't have the speed for a SAM. I can't think of too many players across the league who flip between these positions.
There is the argument that the change in hash marks will make SAMs and WILs more like each other. But other than the interview with Chris Jones, I don't think we've seen evidence of that happening. At least not yet. Maybe it will be a gradual development.
I think moving Wilson to SAM would be like when Jovon Johnson tried it. You can make it work, but its not a good fit, and you're giving up something by taking a player away from his best position. All IMHO of course.
Quote from: the paw on February 01, 2023, 11:21:06 PM
While I agree that WILs are easier to find, I have seen no evidence that Wilson is a viable SAM candidate. He's bulkier, and while he's fast for a WIL, he's doesn't have the speed for a SAM. I can't think of too many players across the league who flip between these positions.
There is the argument that the change in hash marks will make SAMs and WILs more like each other. But other than the interview with Chris Jones, I don't think we've seen evidence of that happening. At least not yet. Maybe it will be a gradual development.
I think moving Wilson to SAM would be like when Jovon Johnson tried it. You can make it work, but its not a good fit, and you're giving up something by taking a player away from his best position. All IMHO of course.
You could very well be correct. My question was somewhat hypothetical and wouldn't be my 1st choice. I did consider that he was a little heavier than I would like but OTOH I have seen him 20 -30 yards downfield in coverage either as a primary or in secondary coverage. In the same sense where we seen Bighill in coverage dropping to safety. Same attributes in speed and football IQ.
Quote from: Blue In BC on February 02, 2023, 12:10:34 AM
You could very well be correct. My question was somewhat hypothetical and wouldn't be my 1st choice. I did consider that he was a little heavier than I would like but OTOH I have seen him 20 -30 yards downfield in coverage either as a primary or in secondary coverage. In the same sense where we seen Bighill in coverage dropping to safety. Same attributes in speed and football IQ.
I think if Darby signs elsewhere the Bombers find their next SAM in house, Lawrence, Parker or Maston (if they renew) are all possibilities, as the main qualification for SAM is a smart DB good in pass protection who also has a physical edge too play the run.
I would like to see this forum ban comments about anything that happened in seasons 2012, 2013, 2014 and 2015. They are evoking dark memories and inflicting trauma in me.
Thank you.
Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on February 02, 2023, 01:44:54 AM
I think if Darby signs elsewhere the Bombers find their next SAM in house, Lawrence, Parker or Maston (if they renew) are all possibilities, as the main qualification for SAM is a smart DB good in pass protection who also has a physical edge too play the run.
I'm not expecting Maston to return after missing the last 2 seasons. Parker seems a bit small to be a run support and cover guy but could be in the consideration. Just off the top Lawrence could be a better choice of those two.
Quote from: blue_or_die on February 02, 2023, 12:31:47 PM
I would like to see this forum ban comments about anything that happened in . They are evoking dark memories and inflicting trauma in me.
Thank you.
I'm not even sure what you're referring to...?
Quote from: Jesse on February 02, 2023, 01:47:11 PM
I'm not even sure what you're referring to...?
Well played. ;)
Quote from: Jesse on February 02, 2023, 01:47:11 PM
I'm not even sure what you're referring to...?
PTSD can take many forms, sometimes haunts through hallucination or dreams.
Quote from: the paw on February 01, 2023, 09:23:11 PM
1. Wild was a great WIL, as good or better than Kyrie Wilson, IMHO. In addition to three very strong seasons in the 70 tackle range, he was a consistent playmaker. He leveraged his time here into an offer from the Steelers, something none of our other WILs have seemed to be able to do. He was also a high performer on ST and longsnapper for a bit. His time at MLB was less dynamic, and I feel his career tapered off because his smaller size and physical style of play wore him out sooner.
2. I think it is "easier" to find WIL players because typically when a player comes out of college as a LB, he fits in as a LB in the CFL. It's apples to apples as a transition. In the case of SAM, we are converting DBs, so there is a bit more trial and error. I think we have been successful at both positions, but we have probably tried more candidates at SAM to arrive at a good place.
3. Part of the perception around SAM might flow from Hefney's refusal to play there, and then Gaitor's drama. These may have contributed to the perception of difficulty. I thought Clint Kent was very good there, Leggett was probably the best. Brandon Stewart stunk when tried there, Jovon Johnson did it for a couple of games and it was clearly not his optimal use. Some DBs fit there, but a lot don't.
1. Good, balanced post. I guess I'm more remembering Wild near the end of his career when I was really getting back into football after a long hiatus. I may not even have seen him at his peak at WILL. I remember how many were groaning about ditching Wild near the end. Most were glad to see him finally go (to TOR I think). It's ironic, because I was a big fan even when he left.
2. Let's rephrase the question: How often has WPG been suffering at WILL vs suffering at SAM? Just look at the most recent year. We suffered to some degree or other at WILL basically all 2022 season, and the post-season. The fill-ins did ok, but you could tell we missed Wilson. Our run-D stats that year are (partial) evidence of this (yes, DT issues too, but WILL is also important in run-D).
As our long list of great SAMs shows, it's hard to even remember when we suffered at SAM. Maybe a game or 2 once in a blue moon? We always find a great SAM to just plop in there and be great. We never go a whole season with weaker SAMs.
That's part of the reason I still maintain it's easier
for us to find good SAMs than WILLs, because if you just go over every GP in the last decade you can objectively prove it by just counting the games where we lacked. Now, maybe this is some quirk of our team, or The Mafia, or just pure luck. Who knows the cause.
Tell you what, if Wilson and Darby/Maston leave, I'll have complete faith that by week 3 we'll have a great SAM, and I'll have
no faith that by week 3 we'll have a great WILL. Heck, this scenario may come to pass and I'll be able to prove it to y'all.
Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on February 01, 2023, 04:42:40 PM
Was just looking at that, he's listed as playing 6 games in 2019 plus the 3 playoff games.
Ya, but what a 6 games!! He was making pivotal plays in every single game. I swear that adding Taylor+Maston late in the season is at least 30% of us winning out that playoff run. I will miss them both greatly if they aren't re-upped.