Roster changes from 2024

[Blue In BC]

Just a quick summary of current losses. Subject to change.

Offence:

Lawler, O.Wilson, Woli, Dobson, Augustine, Feltmate, Whitehead

Defence:

Bighill, Cole, Ford, Haba, Garbutt, Fox, Alexander

PR:

McGhee, Karamoko, Murphy, Hubert, Smith

Returning from long term injuries last year:

Streveler, Lawson, Schoen, K.Wilson, Parker

Let the good times roll and the competition decide who make a new impression.

[DM83]

Nothing too. Concerning.
I guess we should ask. Zac.
No stud for left guard.

[Pete]

Returning from long term injuries last year:

Streveler, Lawson, Schoen, K.Wilson

you can also add Parker.. When assessing our roster for this year these injury additions are significant.
to me the key losses are; Fod/Lawler/Dobson/Alexander. Lawler I feel is covered off with Schoen & our receiver additions and Logan. Dobson we may have to go with an import. I would have/still like to see a cdn olineman added. Parker offsets ALexander , while Lawton gives us a quality national starter.
Hopefully we can again find a quality rookie db and a defensive end.

[TecnoGenius]

to me the key losses are; Jones/Lawler/Dobson/Alexander.

Jones?  MLB Jones?  He re-signed.

[DM83]

Hey Pete get with the program fifo!

[Pete]

Jones?  MLB Jones?  He re-signed.

that should have been Ford! (fixed it) my bad

Hey Pete get with the program fifo!

maybe its time we backed off a bit from that fifo and look at actual talent!

[Blue In BC]

There are more open spots on the AR than we usually see. Some will be filled by 2nd year players that advanced up the depth chart last year. A few may be filled from free agency signings.

Then there will be some import rookies and 2025 draft choices that will make the roster.

It will be a year of transition but that isn't necessarily a bad thing.

[TecnoGenius]

that should have been Ford! (fixed it) my bad

maybe its time we backed off a bit from that fifo and look at actual talent!

Maybe.  Maybe not.  Unit cohesion is a real thing in football.  FIFO got us 2 cups and 3 more div championships.

The downside is I think FIFO may have chased some talent out of town.  I think the Gaitor and Rutledge incidents (why always SAMs?) were part of this.  Maybe the Bowman fiasco too?  Granted, those weren't top talents...

I'd be more concerned if FAs who have never been Bombers were saying they don't want to come here because FIFO.  So far I haven't seen that.

Brotherhood within the team is a good thing.

[blue_gold_84]

...backed off a bit from that fifo and look at actual talent!

It's strange that you think it's one or the other. It really isn't.

[Throw Long Bannatyne]

Maybe.  Maybe not.  Unit cohesion is a real thing in football.  FIFO got us 2 cups and 3 more div championships.

The downside is I think FIFO may have chased some talent out of town.  I think the Gaitor and Rutledge incidents (why always SAMs?) were part of this.  Maybe the Bowman fiasco too?  Granted, those weren't top talents...

I'd be more concerned if FAs who have never been Bombers were saying they don't want to come here because FIFO.  So far I haven't seen that.

Brotherhood within the team is a good thing.

Speaking of Donald Rutledge who played well for the Bombers in early 2022 and disappeared shortly after, he signed with the Argos mid Dec.for this season.  Also former Bomber Natl. Safety Malcolm Thompson is available as a Stamps FA, looks like he's been mostly a STer the past 2 seasons but I remember he had pretty good mobility.

[TecnoGenius]

Speaking of Donald Rutledge who played well for the Bombers in early 2022 and disappeared shortly after, he signed with the Argos mid Dec.for this season.

Rutledge was doing pretty well for us and then boom... didn't he get moved to "suspended"?  Do players get released from that or does WFC still have some rights to him?

Rutledge was a very strange situation and we never got the whole story.  Even stranger than the Gaitor incident.

Coming back to play now after 2 seasons off... odd.

[Blue In BC]

Rutledge was doing pretty well for us and then boom... didn't he get moved to "suspended"?  Do players get released from that or does WFC still have some rights to him?

Rutledge was a very strange situation and we never got the whole story.  Even stranger than the Gaitor incident.

Coming back to play now after 2 seasons off... odd.

He spent the last couple of years in the USFL. That would indicate he was released at some point by the Bombers. IIRC he didn't like the idea of being demoted ( similar to Gaitor situation ). That resulted in release.

A player can remain on the suspended list in certain situations. Usually for failing to report for TC, failing drug or medical tests etc. We see a few of those just as TC is set to begin.

[Throw Long Bannatyne]

He spent the last couple of years in the USFL. That would indicate he was released at some point by the Bombers. IIRC he didn't like the idea of being demoted ( similar to Gaitor situation ). That resulted in release.

A player can remain on the suspended list in certain situations. Usually for failing to report for TC, failing drug or medical tests etc. We see a few of those just as TC is set to begin.

Rutledge could have been a FIFO causality, I've heard them mention they judge people on how they treat the staff, also they don't like slobs that have to be cleaned up after in the dressing room.  Doesn't seem the bar culture among young players is as big a thing as it used to be, but that lifestyle caused a lot of trouble between players. Wasn't it Chris Matthews who got stabbed during his brief second stop?

[Blue In BC]

Rutledge could have been a FIFO causality, I've heard them mention they judge people on how they treat the staff, also they don't like slobs that have to be cleaned up after in the dressing room.  Doesn't seem the bar culture among young players is as big a thing as it used to be, but that lifestyle caused a lot of trouble between players. Wasn't it Chris Matthews who got stabbed during his brief second stop?

I had the impression he had a slower learning curve adjusting to the faster CFL game. He seemed athletic but mnay rookies are a combination of great plays, decent plays and mistakes. He seemed to be fairly consistent in the USFL.

[TecnoGenius]

I think I recall Rutledge being directly replaced by Kramdi, and going into the post-season(?).  We may have already identified Kramdi as the future starter and would have had no need for a IMP SAM, except as a PR backup.

Worked out pretty well for us.  But let's not minimize what Rutledge did: he was pretty much lights out all season until he got benched.  I really thought he had a bright future here: another Moe.

[Pigskin]

I think I recall Rutledge being directly replaced by Kramdi, and going into the post-season(?).  We may have already identified Kramdi as the future starter and would have had no need for a IMP SAM, except as a PR backup.

Worked out pretty well for us.  But let's not minimize what Rutledge did: he was pretty much lights out all season until he got benched.  I really thought he had a bright future here: another Moe.

Darby took over for Rutledge for the rest of the season. Darby started the first 6 weeks of 2023, before Kramdi jumped in on week 7 and has never looked back. 

[Blueforlife]

Darby took over for Rutledge for the rest of the season. Darby started the first 6 weeks of 2023, before Kramdi jumped in on week 7 and has never looked back. 

Kramdi has been very good after much criticism by some.  Patience paid off.  I have always liked him.  Got burnt a bit in pass coverage early but he found his way.  I would like to see him finish his career here but that's a big ask.

[Pete]

Maybe.  Maybe not.  Unit cohesion is a real thing in football.  FIFO got us 2 cups and 3 more div championships.

The downside is I think FIFO may have chased some talent out of town.  I think the Gaitor and Rutledge incidents (why always SAMs?) were part of this.  Maybe the Bowman fiasco too?  Granted, those weren't top talents...

I'd be more concerned if FAs who have never been Bombers were saying they don't want to come here because FIFO.  So far I haven't seen that.

Brotherhood within the team is a good thing.

Players are not gonna say its fifo thats keeping them away its money. A big reason behind us not signing name free agents is that Walters/Oshea is afraid of what it would do to locker room. If we paid Ceresna 230k what would WillIE think when Walters told him 200k was all we could afford. We weren't going to pay Ford the asking price cause again what would that do to Holm and Nichols who are arguably better. It also precludes us from the Webbs and Stubblefields. We could use a tackle like Isiah Cage who would solidify that position for several years.
  Sometimes you have to pay for talent to get better if you have a need.

 

[Jesse]

Players are not gonna say its fifo thats keeping them away its money. A big reason behind us not signing name free agents is that Walters/Oshea is afraid of what it would do to locker room. If we paid Ceresna 230k what would WillIE think when Walters told him 200k was all we could afford. We weren't going to pay Ford the asking price cause again what would that do to Holm and Nichols who are arguably better. It also precludes us from the Webbs and Stubblefields. We could use a tackle like Isiah Cage who would solidify that position for several years.
  Sometimes you have to pay for talent to get better if you have a need.

 

I call BS on this take.

[TecnoGenius]

I call BS on this take.

It's gotta be part of the equation though.  Some of the big names have very big egos (including players on or recently on our team).

It'll sting Schoen seeing what Kenny just banked...

[Jesse]

It's gotta be part of the equation though.  Some of the big names have very big egos (including players on or recently on our team).

It'll sting Schoen seeing what Kenny just banked...

Maybe in the NHL or NFL where guys are signing long term deals. Mark Schiefele signing a 8 year deal for 6 million per year and then immediately see others signing for 8-10 million in the years after probably bites, but those situations don't exist in our league.

CFL guys are re-negotiating every year. Willie's made the same rate for like 3 years in a row now with many players across the league making more. Schoen knew his negotiating power was low and probably knew well before we did that Kenny wasn't returning because he was "only" offered 200k. The tampering period lets guys see exactly what they're worth if they want.

Occam's razor, everyone.

[theaardvark]

Maybe in the NHL or NFL where guys are signing long term deals. Mark Schiefele signing a 8 year deal for 6 million per year and then immediately see others signing for 8-10 million in the years after probably bites, but those situations don't exist in our league.

CFL guys are re-negotiating every year. Willie's made the same rate for like 3 years in a row now with many players across the league making more. Schoen knew his negotiating power was low and probably knew well before we did that Kenny wasn't returning because he was "only" offered 200k. The tampering period lets guys see exactly what they're worth if they want.

Occam's razor, everyone.

MS55 and CH37 both got 7 years at $8.5 mil, but yeah, others have gotten more...

Player values depend on need and capacity to overlook potential issues.  Past/current injuries are a big factor for some GM's, as well as needing a physical to confirm current conditioning.  For others, they can overlook those with the hope the return/upside is worth it.

Kenny is a funny one, left for the bucks, came "home" for the team, then left "for a chance to win", leaving a team with 5 GC appearances for a team that hasn't won a cup in 25 years, and missed the playoffs last year.  He is an outlier that makes his own narrative, and his highlight reel is such that he can make up his own agenda, and teams will buy it. 

Goveia is really banking on BLM to have some chemistry with Kenny.

[Throw Long Bannatyne]

It's gotta be part of the equation though.  Some of the big names have very big egos (including players on or recently on our team).

It'll sting Schoen seeing what Kenny just banked...

With that in mind betcha Schoen explores FA a lot deeper next off-season if he has a great year.  The entire league was pulling receiver salaries back down towards reasonable, until Teddy-boy blew it up signing Lawler.  I wonder if any other team pushed him there, or if he just blurted $275k out in excitement.

Big surprise, 3DN revealed Robbie Smith has become the highest paid D player in the league at $271K, making $40K more than team mate Ceresna.

[theaardvark]

With that in mind betcha Schoen explores FA a lot deeper next off-season if he has a great year.  The entire league was pulling receiver salaries back down towards reasonable, until Teddy-boy blew it up signing Lawler.  I wonder if any other team pushed him there, or if he just blurted $275k out in excitement.

Big surprise, 3DN revealed Robbie Smith has become the highest paid D player in the league at $271K, making $40K more than team mate Ceresna.

Why?

Never more than 6 sacks, or more than 34 DT's... 1 int and 3 ff in 5 years...

Willie is such a bargain...

[Jesse]

MS55 and CH37 both got 7 years at $8.5 mil, but yeah, others have gotten more...

Player values depend on need and capacity to overlook potential issues.  Past/current injuries are a big factor for some GM's, as well as needing a physical to confirm current conditioning.  For others, they can overlook those with the hope the return/upside is worth it.

Kenny is a funny one, left for the bucks, came "home" for the team, then left "for a chance to win", leaving a team with 5 GC appearances for a team that hasn't won a cup in 25 years, and missed the playoffs last year.  He is an outlier that makes his own narrative, and his highlight reel is such that he can make up his own agenda, and teams will buy it. 

Goveia is really banking on BLM to have some chemistry with Kenny.

I was referring to Scheifele's previous contract. There were grumbles over the years that he regretted signing the contract and felt underpaid.

As to Kenny, he has the same agenda as every other player, he went to the highest bidder.

[Jesse]

With that in mind betcha Schoen explores FA a lot deeper next off-season if he has a great year.  The entire league was pulling receiver salaries back down towards reasonable, until Teddy-boy blew it up signing Lawler.  I wonder if any other team pushed him there, or if he just blurted $275k out in excitement.

Big surprise, 3DN revealed Robbie Smith has become the highest paid D player in the league at $271K, making $40K more than team mate Ceresna.

100%

[dd]

At the very least, Schoen should get Lawler's agent working for him!!! Lawler stole the farm on his deal, given he gets hurt every year for at least 1/3 of the season, but whatever, desperate teams do desperate things

[DM83]

Hamilton was obviously a joke.  Maybe this year the Bombers East squad will play to their expectations. Previous comment on Lawler playing only a third of the year very interesting. bLM can throw a decent ball when the protection is there.

They had many holes to fill.  But defensively, they didn't seem to be able to make any plays, routinely or at big moments.  All that was then dumped on BLM who has become unspectacular. Still competent but as was mentioned earlier, will be dependent on Lawler.

They should be the most interesting team with suitable newcomers. But as mentioned, can they stop anybody?

[Pete]

I call BS on this take.

you dont think that walters

Maybe in the NHL or NFL where guys are signing long term deals. Mark Schiefele signing a 8 year deal for 6 million per year and then immediately see others signing for 8-10 million in the years after probably bites, but those situations don't exist in our league.

CFL guys are re-negotiating every year. Willie's made the same rate for like 3 years in a row now with many players across the league making more. Schoen knew his negotiating power was low and probably knew well before we did that Kenny wasn't returning because he was "only" offered 200k. The tampering period lets guys see exactly what they're worth if they want.

Occam's razor, everyone.

you don't think that Walters went to the core members of this team and said, " look we feel we have a legitimate chance to win this year with a few changes to the our depth, but to do so we can afford to pay you  _____(enter amount)
   How does he then try to sign a Ceresna for example for 250k or an oline member for 200k where our best lineman (an allstar) is making 175?

In the past 4 years we've never done that. The team has a salary structure by position that Walters adheres to. (with the only exception being Lawler and this year we didn't do that)
Willie Bryant and Holm would have gotten more in the free agent market.

 It's not the comparison to other players in the league its within our own team and the sense of fairness and equity
 
This year will be a true test of locker room continuity and atmosphere vs paying for talent when at the end of it we compare the Bombers results to elks.
(as an aside it's something to see what overspending cap by 300k will get you on your dline
Elks Balow/Ceresna/Brinkman/Smith (appr. 865k) vs Vaughters/Lawton/Woods/Jefferson (575k)

[Jesse]

you dont think that walters
you don't think that Walters went to the core members of this team and said, " look we feel we have a legitimate chance to win this year with a few changes to the our depth, but to do so we can afford to pay you  _____(enter amount)
   How does he then try to sign a Ceresna for example for 250k or an oline member for 200k where our best lineman (an allstar) is making 175?

In the past 4 years we've never done that. The team has a salary structure by position that Walters adheres to. (with the only exception being Lawler and this year we didn't do that)
Willie Bryant and Holm would have gotten more in the free agent market.

 It's not the comparison to other players in the league its within our own team and the sense of fairness and equity
 
This year will be a true test of locker room continuity and atmosphere vs paying for talent when at the end of it we compare the Bombers results to elks.
(as an aside it's something to see what overspending cap by 300k will get you on your dline
Elks Balow/Ceresna/Brinkman/Smith (appr. 865k) vs Vaughters/Lawton/Woods/Jefferson (575k)

I don't think Walters negotiates like that, no.

He gives agents his best offer that the team can afford and the agent will make counter offers based on comparable player salaries across the league.

[dd]

you dont think that walters
you don't think that Walters went to the core members of this team and said, " look we feel we have a legitimate chance to win this year with a few changes to the our depth, but to do so we can afford to pay you  _____(enter amount)
   How does he then try to sign a Ceresna for example for 250k or an oline member for 200k where our best lineman (an allstar) is making 175?

In the past 4 years we've never done that. The team has a salary structure by position that Walters adheres to. (with the only exception being Lawler and this year we didn't do that)
Willie Bryant and Holm would have gotten more in the free agent market.

 It's not the comparison to other players in the league its within our own team and the sense of fairness and equity
 
This year will be a true test of locker room continuity and atmosphere vs paying for talent when at the end of it we compare the Bombers results to elks.
(as an aside it's something to see what overspending cap by 300k will get you on your dline
Elks Balow/Ceresna/Brinkman/Smith (appr. 865k) vs Vaughters/Lawton/Woods/Jefferson (575k)

Elks D line is $290 more than ours, but our Qb is likely the same $290 more than theirs, and Brady is making more than their RB, so it washes out in the end

[Blue In BC]

I don't think Walters negotiates like that, no.

He gives agents his best offer that the team can afford and the agent will make counter offers based on comparable player salaries across the league.

I don't think so either.

[Pete]

Elks D line is $290 more than ours, but our Qb is likely the same $290 more than theirs, and Brady is making more than their RB, so it washes out in the end

except that their dbs make 180k more than ours as does their offensive line, Hervey is using the bc salary cap model.

I don't think Walters negotiates like that, no.

He gives agents his best offer that the team can afford and the agent will make counter offers based on comparable player salaries across the league.

Your likely right but if we signed Ceresna after that for 250k , it wouldn't be an issue for Wilie for example?

[Jesse]

You're likely right but if we signed Ceresna after that for 250k , it wouldn't be an issue for Wilie for example?

I can't imagine why it would. I'm sure Willie would be psyched to play next to Ceresna. They would make each other much more successful.

[TecnoGenius]

Willie Bryant and Holm would have gotten more in the free agent market.

It's not the comparison to other players in the league its within our own team and the sense of fairness and equity

That brings up an interesting thought... what if KW is reserving the $400k windfall to wait until the AR is set and then offering each current player their proportional amount?

Sounds dumb & crazy, but it would make him the most-loved-by-players GM in the league.  He wouldn't have to break any contracts either, just pay it out as a bonus (maybe at season end).

He has to do something with the money.  Once it's clear it's just $400k gravy money each GM can drunken-sailor away as they see fit, he'll have to commit that money to players somehow, someway!

[TecnoGenius]

At the very least, Schoen should get Lawler's agent working for him!!! Lawler stole the farm on his deal, given he gets hurt every year for at least 1/3 of the season, but whatever, desperate teams do desperate things

Hurt, or drinks & drives, or can't get into the country, or... It'll be a miracle if there's not some fiasco again this season.  Unless Goveia babysits him like a hawk until he's actually in the house for TC.

[TecnoGenius]

With that in mind betcha Schoen explores FA a lot deeper next off-season if he has a great year.  The entire league was pulling receiver salaries back down towards reasonable, until Teddy-boy blew it up signing Lawler.  I wonder if any other team pushed him there, or if he just blurted $275k out in excitement.

I still maintain that HAM must have had inside baseball on the extra $400k.  It's really the only thing that explains their early-FA/TP insanity.

[Throw Long Bannatyne]

I still maintain that HAM must have had inside baseball on the extra $400k.  It's really the only thing that explains their early-FA/TP insanity.

Could be someone inside the CFLPA leaked the news to a few GM's but not to all. The CFL has a lot of shenanigan but lacks scandal.

[Blue In BC]

Could be someone inside the CFLPA leaked the news to a few GM's but not to all. The CFL has a lot of shenanigan but lacks scandal.

I'm not a fan of conspiracy theories. Regardless, any team can sign a bunch of players for high contract amounts in the off season. That doesn't mean they all make the AR at final cut down. A few might end up on 6 game IR, be released or traded.

SMS aside from early money doesn't count until the final rosters are declared. In some cases, players that had existing contracts may be asked to re-negotiate ( Rourke ) for example.

[TecnoGenius]

I'm not a fan of conspiracy theories. Regardless, any team can sign a bunch of players for high contract amounts in the off season. That doesn't mean they all make the AR at final cut down. A few might end up on 6 game IR, be released or traded.

You mean that a team can "sign" 10 Kennys for $275k each in FA and then cut all but 1 after TC and not have to honor the other 9 "contracts"?

What a strange system.  Then why wouldn't a team offer $1M to every single FA in the league, hog them all in their TC, deprive the other teams, and then release them all 1 day before season opener?  Great way to screw over every team except your own.

What's the meaning of the word "contract" then?

Does that mean the only "contracts" in FA that mean a hill of beans are ones with non-paltry signing bonuses?

[TecnoGenius]

Could be someone inside the CFLPA leaked the news to a few GM's but not to all. The CFL has a lot of shenanigan but lacks scandal.

Don't you mean the CFL proper?  I would have thought the CFPA had zero advance notice of the $400k news?

[Blue In BC]

You mean that a team can "sign" 10 Kennys for $275k each in FA and then cut all but 1 after TC and not have to honor the other 9 "contracts"?

What a strange system.  Then why wouldn't a team offer $1M to every single FA in the league, hog them all in their TC, deprive the other teams, and then release them all 1 day before season opener?  Great way to screw over every team except your own.

What's the meaning of the word "contract" then?

Does that mean the only "contracts" in FA that mean a hill of beans are ones with non-paltry signing bonuses?

Higher value contacts usually have signing bonus money. So it wouldn't make sense to sign 10 receivers @ $275K and then cut 9 of them.

OTOH, we signed some receivers at $90K or less. Barring injury there isn't room for all of them on the AR. Someone will get cut.

It depends on whether there is guaranteed money involved as well as larger signing bonus money.

Look at all the rookies that are signed for TC. If they make the roster they will probably be on ELC's. More will be released outright than make the roster or even the PR.

Don't put too much thought into teams that sign a bunch of higher paid players. Not all will have big signing bonus as part of their deals.

As far as the Elks, I'm not sure who got what in early money. However, they are doing a 180 turnover on their roster, so that's in a different world.

[Throw Long Bannatyne]

Don't you mean the CFL proper?  I would have thought the CFPA had zero advance notice of the $400k news?

I don't know why but the announced money seems to have been channeled through the CFLPA.

https://cflpa.com/cflpa-shares-historic-salary-cap-increase-for-2025-season

[Throw Long Bannatyne]

I'm not a fan of conspiracy theories. Regardless, any team can sign a bunch of players for high contract amounts in the off season. That doesn't mean they all make the AR at final cut down. A few might end up on 6 game IR, be released or traded.

SMS aside from early money doesn't count until the final rosters are declared. In some cases, players that had existing contracts may be asked to re-negotiate ( Rourke ) for example.

This is a highly unlikely scenario, team's don't sign players in FA than renegotiate their contracts, nor are they likely to cut or PR a player they deemed worthy of pursuing in FA.  Exception Shea Patterson, not that they pursued him but I could see Patterson being cut as soon as Strev. is able to go.

[TecnoGenius]

I don't know why but the announced money seems to have been channeled through the CFLPA.

Interesting!  Who's the current prez / VP (etc.) of CFLPA?  They wouldn't have previously played for HAM & EDM by any chance?

[TecnoGenius]

nor are they likely to cut or PR a player they deemed worthy of pursuing in FA.

But in theory a malicious GM could sign every single FA player to a $1M contract in FA and release them after TC and not actually spend a dime of SMS, right?  The only caveat is you have to offer a $0 signing bonus.

Again, very strange system, and very strange definition of "contract".

It's amazing the players put up with such lopsided "contract" terms.  The players are 100% bound but the teams can cut at will on all but the most vet / most $ contracts.

[Blue In BC]

This is a highly unlikely scenario, team's don't sign players in FA than renegotiate their contracts, nor are they likely to cut or PR a player they deemed worthy of pursuing in FA.  Exception Shea Patterson, not that they pursued him but I could see Patterson being cut as soon as Strev. is able to go.

I was suggesting re-negotiating contract of players that were not free agents. I mentioned Rourke as an example. That swings the total SMS somewhat more favourably.

[Blue In BC]

But in theory a malicious GM could sign every single FA player to a $1M contract in FA and release them after TC and not actually spend a dime of SMS, right?  The only caveat is you have to offer a $0 signing bonus.

Again, very strange system, and very strange definition of "contract".

It's amazing the players put up with such lopsided "contract" terms.  The players are 100% bound but the teams can cut at will on all but the most vet / most $ contracts.

All contracts have to be approved by the league. At some point they may consider the accumulation of contracts across the roster as part of SMS control. There is also an off season roster limit to take into account.

I'd like to think teams try to work within the spirit of the rules.

[TecnoGenius]

All contracts have to be approved by the league. At some point they may consider the accumulation of contracts across the roster as part of SMS control. There is also an off season roster limit to take into account.

Aren't these periods of oversized rosters virtually unlimited?  In any event, they must be big enough that if you wanted to hog an extra 50 top FAs you could?  It seems like we bring in an extra 100 guys above our AR limit every TC.

I'd like to think teams try to work within the spirit of the rules.

Yes, that is the saving grace, as so many whisper rules are respected by the GMs.  However, as we saw with BC completely blowing the SMS and "marketing" schemes, all it takes is one unscrupulous GM/owner to blow it for everyone.

[Throw Long Bannatyne]

Interesting!  Who's the current prez / VP (etc.) of CFLPA?  They wouldn't have previously played for HAM & EDM by any chance?

Solomon Elimimian | President
Brett Lauther | 1st Vice President
Jake Thomas | 2nd Vice President
David Mackie | 3rd Vice President
Adam Bighill     |   Treasurer
Peter Dyakowski   | Interim Executive Director

[Blue In BC]

Aren't these periods of oversized rosters virtually unlimited?  In any event, they must be big enough that if you wanted to hog an extra 50 top FAs you could?  It seems like we bring in an extra 100 guys above our AR limit every TC.

Yes, that is the saving grace, as so many whisper rules are respected by the GMs.  However, as we saw with BC completely blowing the SMS and "marketing" schemes, all it takes is one unscrupulous GM/owner to blow it for everyone.

I think the off season limit is 105 players. Regardless there has to be a limit of some sort. We haven't ever seen what you suggested ( hogging an extra 50 FA's ) for example. It would destroy a given teams credibility. Whey would any player sign with a team that does that?  That's all part of fair play.

[Pete]

It makes you wonder with that many training camp attendees how they can possibly properly assess
talent especially with the limits on contact and only two preseason games one of which is likely to be against players no one has heard of.
it seems like a colossal waste of resources and time which could be spent getting ready for regular season.
Especially when you look at how few openings there are.
Why not hold a tryout camp prior to regular one, to bring down the numbers to a manageable number or do they already do that?

[Blue In BC]

It makes you wonder with that many training camp attendees how they can possibly properly assess
talent especially with the limits on contact and only two preseason games one of which is likely to be against players no one has heard of.
it seems like a colossal waste of resources and time which could be spent getting ready for regular season.
Especially when you look at how few openings there are.
Why not hold a tryout camp prior to regular one, to bring down the numbers to a manageable number or do they already do that?

They do hold a rookie mini camp before the actual TC. That results in a few deletions. The TC roster has a limit but draft choices are exempt from the limit. With the Canadian and Global draft that probably adds 12 bodies + draft choices returning from the previous year that returned from school.  Then we get a few players from the Bisons which are there for the experience before they are even drafted.

I agree it's too many players to really evaluate. The reality is that some are injured early and end up getting cut so more newbies can be added.

Between the AR, IR and PR there are about 60-65 players that end up somewhere on our rosters.

[TecnoGenius]

It makes you wonder with that many training camp attendees how they can possibly properly assess
talent especially with the limits on contact and only two preseason games one of which is likely to be against players no one has heard of.

I think they are looking for the immediate standouts.  Guys that you can't help but notice.  We get 1-2 every season.  Like Schoen.  D.Alford.  Guys that instantly stood out to Mafia, fans and press.  Guys that get special, rare praise right away.

The guys that may take a bit more work to season but might be #1 guys later will probably get lost in the shuffle and never heard from again.  Such is life.  (NATs get a bit more grace in that regard.)

You need to shine when you get your fleeting moment.  A great example is Wilson in the GC should have made more completions and/or scrambled for some 1st downs.  He didn't do badly (watch his reads and throws again).  But he didn't pop off the page and as such it's probably bye-bye Wilson in a couple of months (contrast with: TOR's Kelly).

Addtl: you can also get a sense of FIFO during a full training camp that you can't get otherwise.

[Throw Long Bannatyne]

They do hold a rookie mini camp before the actual TC. That results in a few deletions. The TC roster has a limit but draft choices are exempt from the limit. With the Canadian and Global draft that probably adds 12 bodies + draft choices returning from the previous year that returned from school.  Then we get a few players from the Bisons which are there for the experience before they are even drafted.

I agree it's too many players to really evaluate. The reality is that some are injured early and end up getting cut so more newbies can be added.

Between the AR, IR and PR there are about 60-65 players that end up somewhere on our rosters.

Rookie camp helps out a lot with overall efficiency of TC, it provides more time for newcomers to get their feet on the ground, familiarize themselves with the CFL game and understand the team's expectations, plus it gives the coaches a chance to pre-evaluate rookie talent.  Without it the same process would take place in Camp which would waste time and reps available for evaluating.

[theaardvark]

But in theory a malicious GM could sign every single FA player to a $1M contract in FA and release them after TC and not actually spend a dime of SMS, right?  The only caveat is you have to offer a $0 signing bonus.

Again, very strange system, and very strange definition of "contract".

It's amazing the players put up with such lopsided "contract" terms.  The players are 100% bound but the teams can cut at will on all but the most vet / most $ contracts.

NHL/MLB contracts are 100% player friendly.  Sign it and you don't have to do a single thing to earn it.  The money is all yours.  Claim a soft tissue injury, or go to rehab, 100% of your contract gets paid.

NFL/CFL contracts are earned.  You sign the deal knowing that if you do not earn the money, they can cut you loose.

Novel concept, earning your contract.

Yes, A GM could offer huge no signing bonus FA contracts and then cut players loose with zero $SMS implications.  Once. 

CFL Players are well aware of the fragility of their contracts and that they have to earn them.  Hubris could have them sign a deal they know they can't earn, knowing they will likely be cut when they don't. 

But most players/agents understand the fine line between getting paid and getting overpaid.  And that they can get cut before off season bonuses are paid.  Or before the "vet cutdown day" arrives if they've stunk out the place.

The one bonus concern they don't have is getting cut before they hit a performance bonus.  You'd have to be one dumb GM to cut a guy that has outperformed his performance clause.  Plus, by then, you're past the cut down days anyways...  and any GM that sits a guy when he can hit a performance bonus without agree first to pay it is going to lose a lot of goodwill going forward...

[Sir Blue and Gold]

Only partially true, Aards, all NHL ELCs are two way and there's a big difference between NHL and AHL money. Players who sign those deals need to make the NHL team to earn the reported money.

[theaardvark]

Only partially true, Aards, all NHL ELCs are two way and there's a big difference between NHL and AHL money. Players who sign those deals need to make the NHL team to earn the reported money.

ELC's, sure... AHL money is less, and no waivers to send down. But again, you EARN your contract.  You aren't in the AHL if you play at an NHL level.  And AHL money in those deals is a lot more than CFL money on AR's.

But every NHL contract, ELC or not, is 100% player friendly.  No cuts, guaranteed money.  Buyouts for exceptionally bad play still net you money, and allow you to sign elsewhere and still get your old paycheck.

Injured players still get paid, but the team can recoup money from insurance, if they bought it.  Maybe that's an idea, make signing bonuses $SMS prorated *IF* you "buy insurance" from the league.  Say, 10% of the bonus paid from $SMS into a league fund?

CFL, you play bad, its an apple and a roadmap. No safety net, no parting gifts (other than the apple).  Good players can negotiate a signing bonus to reduce that risk, but unless you are $DD4, zero do not want to earn every penny of the rest of their deal.

It would take a very dire circumstance for any GM to cut a player who is playing to his current compensation level. 

[TecnoGenius]

Injured players still get paid, but the team can recoup money from insurance, if they bought it.  Maybe that's an idea, make signing bonuses $SMS prorated *IF* you "buy insurance" from the league.  Say, 10% of the bonus paid from $SMS into a league fund?

Ya, but then you're paying real money to the league just to get reimbursed in "play money" (the SMS).  Which seems a bit weird.

And that still has the problem of giving the "rich" (in real money) teams a leg up.

Too complicated: just make bonus money pro-rated recoverable on 6GIR, just like normal salary is.  Easy peasy simple and is "free" insurance for all teams against #1 player catastrophic season-enders.  Then the idiosyncracies of USA tax law won't impact Canadian CFL teams at all (which I think we can all support!).

[theaardvark]

Ya, but then you're paying real money to the league just to get reimbursed in "play money" (the SMS).  Which seems a bit weird.

And that still has the problem of giving the "rich" (in real money) teams a leg up.

Too complicated: just make bonus money pro-rated recoverable on 6GIR, just like normal salary is.  Easy peasy simple and is "free" insurance for all teams against #1 player catastrophic season-enders.  Then the idiosyncracies of USA tax law won't impact Canadian CFL teams at all (which I think we can all support!).

Then there is no risk signing players to contracts that are all signing bonus.  Which gives "rich" teams an even bigger advantage.  Because any funds recouped through prorated bonuses still have to be paid out, they just don't count against $SMS. 

If signing bonuses are to be recouped, there has to be a cap on how much of your $SMS is doled out in bonuses, both signing and performance.  Just like there is a cap on how much guaranteed money a team can commit to subsequent years on multi year resigning deals.

It is sad, but the rules sometimes are needed to protect GM's from themselves.

Do you then extend that concept to the front office $SMS?  Can teams recoup $SMS from fired coaches?  I know its not the same as injury, but its a similar idea...

 

[Blue In BC]

Then there is no risk signing players to contracts that are all signing bonus.  Which gives "rich" teams an even bigger advantage.  Because any funds recouped through prorated bonuses still have to be paid out, they just don't count against $SMS. 

If signing bonuses are to be recouped, there has to be a cap on how much of your $SMS is doled out in bonuses, both signing and performance.  Just like there is a cap on how much guaranteed money a team can commit to subsequent years on multi year resigning deals.

It is sad, but the rules sometimes are needed to protect GM's from themselves.

Do you then extend that concept to the front office $SMS?  Can teams recoup $SMS from fired coaches?  I know its not the same as injury, but its a similar idea...

 

I don't think so. For the bonus money to be recouped, players have to be placed on the 6 game IR. You can't plan on which players or how much you will apply to SMS in that event.

That's the risk in signing players with large signing bonus's in the context of your suggestion.  Teams sign those players with the expectation they will play the bulk of the games. It's the key import players that see big bonus money.

[theaardvark]

I don't think so. For the bonus money to be recouped, players have to be placed on the 6 game IR. You can't plan on which players or how much you will apply to SMS in that event.

That's the risk in signing players with large signing bonus's in the context of your suggestion.  Teams sign those players with the expectation they will play the bulk of the games. It's the key import players that see big bonus money.

Yes, "key" import players get bonuses, because in the current scheme, its a risk, and you have to be careful who you risk it on and how much you risk.

But you can sign a player for less by giving them more upfront.  Of course, you expect any player you give a bonus to to play most of the games. 

In the current scheme, should you lose players you paid high signing bonuses, you don't recoup those at all from the 6 game IR.  You may have saved $40k on the total deal, but you could lose most of the signing bonus if they go out early, like Schoen.  So giving any player a big signing bonus is a risk.

If you recoup the signing bonus, you could sign all your players with favourable residency to deals with huge signing bonuses without worry.  If I calculate correctly,  a player could net the same pay from a $240k deal with a 160k signing bonus as he would from a $300k deal with no bonus.  So you save $60k on your $SMS. 

If there is no risk, suddenly players from those tax friendly states become in more demand, and "rich" teams can sign them because they don't have to worry about eating $SMS, they just pay out non-SMS cash if the player is injured.  Teams that have actual budgets would be less likely to sign, because of the real concern they'd have to pay extra non-SMS dollars in the case of injury.

And while saving $SMS on injured players signing bonuses sounds great, it really rarely helps teams acquire replacement talent.  What it does do is give teams end of season $SMS to be used for re-signing players.  The rich get richer.

[TecnoGenius]

It is sad, but the rules sometimes are needed to protect GM's from themselves.

I strongly believe in personal responsibility.  If a GM shoots themselves in the foot, that's their problem.

Do you then extend that concept to the front office $SMS?  Can teams recoup $SMS from fired coaches?  I know its not the same as injury, but its a similar idea...

Not a great comparison.  Cutting a coach is more like cutting a player you gave $200k bonus to.  In any event, I'd ditch the entire office SMS, as it's proven to be extremely limiting and really hasn't improved anything.  Just look at how many hoops the Can Mafia has to jump through every year to keep the big 3 happy?

[TecnoGenius]

If there is no risk, suddenly players from those tax friendly states become in more demand, and "rich" teams can sign them because they don't have to worry about eating $SMS, they just pay out non-SMS cash if the player is injured.

You're very fixated on the advantage you think this gives rich teams, like season-ended all-star players are a common thing.  They are not, and no GM plans around having a catastrophic no-Kenny no-Schoen WR corps for 6+ games.  But look in 2024 -- there we were.

And the tax savings for high-bonus IMPs isn't as much as you think.  In most states in the USA your total tax bill might be only 30% even if you're pulling in $200k USD.  Remember, they aren't Canada!  If you get some sort of 25% tax break on bonuses, you're only saving ~8k!  (Using a total comp of $200k with a $100k bonus.)

Sure, it's a nice gravy bonus for players, but hardly a be-all-end-all.

I think players are more interested in a signing bonus as in-season injury protection as well as now-you-can't-cut-me protection.

And while saving $SMS on injured players signing bonuses sounds great, it really rarely helps teams acquire replacement talent.  What it does do is give teams end of season $SMS to be used for re-signing players.  The rich get richer.

I look at it more as rare catastrophe insurance when a team has a year like WPG 2024, with tons of top-end, bonused players getting 6G'd or season-ended.  If this happens to a team why should they be punished?  (And I'm not just playing blue-colored favorites -- law of averages would hint the next team to face this crisis won't be us -- I don't wish that level of injury on any team.)

Also, don't ignore the on-field product.  All fans in the league should receive the best product possible.  That's how we grow the fan base and get $$ in the seats and glued to the TV.

When a team is fielding their backups to backups to backups RECs like we did last season, is that good for the league?  You saw the result in our first 6 games!!  Surely there were couch-sitters, aged-out vets, or other-team PR players we could have picked up during that time, had total SMS$ not been a factor?

If you must protect teams against real-world $$ losses of 6GIR players then setup a league-wide insurance fund that all teams pay into and then 6GIR bonus money (or maybe even salary money!) gets paid out of that.  I'm sure actuaries could easily come up with the average salary and prorated-bonus league-wide every season, and the cost per team would be quite small.  Then no team has to lose out on real-$ or SMS$, and costs are predefined and budgetable for the bean counters.

[theaardvark]

You're very fixated on the advantage you think this gives rich teams, like season-ended all-star players are a common thing.  They are not, and no GM plans around having a catastrophic no-Kenny no-Schoen WR corps for 6+ games.  But look in 2024 -- there we were.

And the tax savings for high-bonus IMPs isn't as much as you think.  In most states in the USA your total tax bill might be only 30% even if you're pulling in $200k USD.  Remember, they aren't Canada!  If you get some sort of 25% tax break on bonuses, you're only saving ~8k!  (Using a total comp of $200k with a $100k bonus.)

Sure, it's a nice gravy bonus for players, but hardly a be-all-end-all.

I think players are more interested in a signing bonus as in-season injury protection as well as now-you-can't-cut-me protection.

I look at it more as rare catastrophe insurance when a team has a year like WPG 2024, with tons of top-end, bonused players getting 6G'd or season-ended.  If this happens to a team why should they be punished?  (And I'm not just playing blue-colored favorites -- law of averages would hint the next team to face this crisis won't be us -- I don't wish that level of injury on any team.)

Also, don't ignore the on-field product.  All fans in the league should receive the best product possible.  That's how we grow the fan base and get $$ in the seats and glued to the TV.

When a team is fielding their backups to backups to backups RECs like we did last season, is that good for the league?  You saw the result in our first 6 games!!  Surely there were couch-sitters, aged-out vets, or other-team PR players we could have picked up during that time, had total SMS$ not been a factor?

If you must protect teams against real-world $$ losses of 6GIR players then setup a league-wide insurance fund that all teams pay into and then 6GIR bonus money (or maybe even salary money!) gets paid out of that.  I'm sure actuaries could easily come up with the average salary and prorated-bonus league-wide every season, and the cost per team would be quite small.  Then no team has to lose out on real-$ or SMS$, and costs are predefined and budgetable for the bean counters.

Signing bonus carrots for players from favourable states are substantial, many are taxed at zero to 15%, whereas game cheques get taxed at the provincial rate where the game is, which is considerably higher.

It does guarantee money against cuts, and that is an incentive, but you can sign for a lower $SMS hit using both that fact and the lower tax rates.  My point is that if you remove all risk from signing bonuses, they will increase dramatically, and will not be good for the league overall, driving up prices.

[Blue In BC]

Signing bonus carrots for players from favourable states are substantial, many are taxed at zero to 15%, whereas game cheques get taxed at the provincial rate where the game is, which is considerably higher.

It does guarantee money against cuts, and that is an incentive, but you can sign for a lower $SMS hit using both that fact and the lower tax rates.  My point is that if you remove all risk from signing bonuses, they will increase dramatically, and will not be good for the league overall, driving up prices.

You can only spend the SMS cap. How you spend / where you spend it may change but it doesn't drive up anything. We're also speaking of a very small number of highly paid players that get significant signing bonus's combined with serious long term injury.

There is zero downside to the league.

There is more of an issue with the vagueness of the marketing money which seems to be limitless. Now there is something that could be abused and create an uneven playing field which the SMS is intended to control.

[TecnoGenius]

Signing bonus carrots for players from favourable states are substantial, many are taxed at zero to 15%, whereas game cheques get taxed at the provincial rate where the game is, which is considerably higher.

Oh, I was assuming IMPs pay taxes back home at the USA rates, not to us at provincial/federal Canada rates!  That would change the equation quite a bit.

But since most of the IMPs probably are considered 6 months + 1 day residents of USA, wouldn't they pay all taxes to USA?  I'm not sure how that works.

Maybe the signing bonus can be taxed differently since it's paid while the IMP is actually physically living/present in the USA and thus gets taxed "at home" rather than in Canada?

Yes, if for some reason IMPs are paying Canada tax while residing in Canada and USA tax in the off-season, then shifting as much of the income to the off-season and paying 30% (USA) instead of 55% (Canada) would be massively beneficial, even without some USA-specific bonus carve-out!

[Sir Blue and Gold]

Oh, I was assuming IMPs pay taxes back home at the USA rates, not to us at provincial/federal Canada rates!  That would change the equation quite a bit.

But since most of the IMPs probably are considered 6 months + 1 day residents of USA, wouldn't they pay all taxes to USA?  I'm not sure how that works.

Maybe the signing bonus can be taxed differently since it's paid while the IMP is actually physically living/present in the USA and thus gets taxed "at home" rather than in Canada?

Yes, if for some reason IMPs are paying Canada tax while residing in Canada and USA tax in the off-season, then shifting as much of the income to the off-season and paying 30% (USA) instead of 55% (Canada) would be massively beneficial, even without some USA-specific bonus carve-out!

American players still need to file their taxes in the US (even if the money is earned while in Canada) but they qualify for foreign earned income exclusions up to something like $120,000 USD. The CFL also ensures players don't exceed the 182 day rule which means Americans aren't typically considered residents of Canada for Canadian tax purposes. So many American players pay little to no US income tax as a result.