Zach's Finger Slice

[TecnoGenius]

I've studied the GC Zach finger slice play quite a bit.  I'm nearly positive he slices it on the pass-rusher's hand/fingernails/glove.  In other words, it did not strike a helmet like Zach suspected in the post-game.

This is very odd.  It's not easy to slice a knuckle wide open like that.  It actually seems impossible.

My hunch is the DL's fingernails got in there like claws on a cat during Zach's follow-through.  If you make a throwing motion, use your left hand to try to get a nail into that spot.  It seems pretty easy to get a nail into that knuckle, if a bit pathological and unlucky.  The DL would have to be curling his knuckles to try to claw at him.

My question is, are D players permitted to sharpen or enhance their nails in any way?  I'm trying to put buckets of pressure from my normal nails into my knuckle joint and I really don't see how you can make such a big slice... with normal nails.  And it's not like Zach was still in a fast motion: where the hands seem to touch is near the end/slowdown part of his motion.

As a D player (especially DL), what's to stop you from trying to make your nails as sharp as possible, for use in clawing at players?  You can sharpen them laterally as well as to a point.  If you're lucky enough to get a hand on a QB, slicing him up (anywhere!) certainly can't hurt your chances of winning.

I'm not saying any TOR D player did this, as someone could just have long, dirty, strong/thick nails.  And Zach could just have had terrible luck.  That said, I'm not sure I've seen anything like this before.  Helmet-finger damage, sure... but hand-hand slicing?  Nope.

No one can argue that the Zach finger injury stole any chance we had of winning the game, as as such it would be nice to definitively know why it occurred and see if we can protect against it in the future.

[bluengold204]

I haven't watched the replay but I think defensive linemen are required to wear gloves so I doubt it was a fingernail...

[VictorRomano]

Speaking as someone who played both OG and DT at the Junior level (19-22), no one I ever played with sharpened their fingernails.  Too much chance to have a fingernail get caight on the opponent uniform and get torn off.  most guys I played with kept their nails extremely short as a result.

[Blueforlife]

Likely something we will never see again, really bad timing.  Hopefully it heals 100%.

[dd]

The big boys in the trenches are hard at it knocking the crap out of each other and most, if not all, wear gloves to protect their hands from helmet and facemask contact and getting caught up in jerseys//broken. 

This far fetched whole notion that someone would forgo protecting their hands from damage in combat for sharpening up their fingernails is insane.

Our fingernails aren't strong enough to endure the trauma of such impact and would most likely result in injury to the D lineman.

[theaardvark]

The finger slice cost us the game.  Period.

How the staff reacted to it was probably the worst thing they could have done.  Hindsight, I know...

[TecnoGenius]

This far fetched whole notion that someone would forgo protecting their hands from damage in combat for sharpening up their fingernails is insane.

Our fingernails aren't strong enough to endure the trauma of such impact and would most likely result in injury to the D lineman.

Ya, one would think, eh?  But we still need an explanation for the deep cut.

I have looked at it some more, and the offending DL #97 Parish is wearing fingerless gloves.  And he has taped knuckles.  But skin is exposed on most of each finger.  I assume his nails are not taped, but I cannot tell for sure.  The slowmo replay after Zach walks to the tunnel is the best angle to see this stuff.

The other DL appear to be wearing full gloves.  But not #97.  So it could still be a fingernail that got Zach.

And if not a fingernail, what else could it be, unless he's spiking his gloves or something (which would seem even more preposterous).

I'm pretty sure in the slowmo with my comp PVR in frame step I can see the moment the 2 hands touch.  It's at a slightly different angle than I thought, but still pretty much as you'd expect.  Except for the suspected hand collision, Zach's hand is down inward towards his stomach by the time Parish comes through with his helmet, and thus the knuckle should have been protected.  The helmet never gets as low as Zach's resting throwing arm anyhow.

Bottom line, if someone wants to rebut the fingernail theory, they'll need to study this and suggest an alternative method of injury.

Might it be beneficial for Zach to loosely tape his knuckles in the future?  Or maybe someone makes a product that is protective yet not limiting?  If that knuckle had some tape, it likely does not get sliced.

P.S. #97 followed through on the hit, though held up his full weight, and the hit was marginally late after the ball was gone.  He's lucky he did not get flagged.

[TecnoGenius]

Interesting note: it was Bryant whiffing slightly on #97 that let him get to Zach.  Should have kept him fully away and this wouldn't have happened.

[ModAdmin]

Interesting note: it was Bryant whiffing slightly on #97 that let him get to Zach.  Should have kept him fully away and this wouldn't have happened.

No player is perfect on every play.  But Bryant is the cornerstone on our oline and our most impactful oline player going into next season.

[TecnoGenius]

No player is perfect on every play.  But Bryant is the cornerstone on our oline and our most impactful oline player going into next season.

For sure, Big Stan is allowed a mulligan or two.  But like the Nichols lemonation, the Big Stan whiffs are often costly.  Strange that, actually.

[Throw Long Bannatyne]

Might it be beneficial for Zach to loosely tape his knuckles in the future?  Or maybe someone makes a product that is protective yet not limiting? If that knuckle had some tape, it likely does not get sliced.

Someone already has, they're called "gloves", many QB's wear them for improved grip and to better protect their hands from injury.  If Zach was wearing a glove it may have ripped on the sharp object but it probably would have prevented the cut. We'll see if he's wearing gloves next season, can an old dog learn new tricks, or not?

[blue_gold_84]

The finger slice cost us the game.  Period.

Not sure about that. The offense was playing poorly even before that happened.

[Throw Long Bannatyne]

Not sure about that. The offense was playing poorly even before that happened.

Yah, but there's always the hope Zach can get it going. First half performance was not impressive and the second half was worse.

[Sir Blue and Gold]

...Sharpened finger nails? The off season has only just begun!

[ModAdmin]

...Sharpened finger nails? The off season has only just begun!

Imagine open toed cleats and sharpened toe nails!!!

[TecnoGenius]

Someone already has, they're called "gloves", many QB's wear them for improved grip and to better protect their hands from injury.

Ya, but I bet a QB who spends his whole life not wearing gloves cannot easily transition to gloves.  There must be an alternative for guys like Zach, especially if it can cover a part of the finger that has minimal contact with the ball, especially the all-important final contact point upon throwing.

For example, like I said, the DL dude just had his knuckles taped.  That same tape on Zach (perhaps looser for throwing flexibility) may have sufficed.

[TecnoGenius]

Not sure about that. The offense was playing poorly even before that happened.

Tru dat.  With Zach unhurt we would still need some lucky breaks on D or ST.  I don't think the O was going to figure anything out, and TOR O got better as the game went on.

Maybe 50/50 chance we manage to pull off a miracle W.  But probably more like 30/70.  Literally nothing was going right on any phase, like even that meaningless OSK the ball was there for the taking on the turf for an eternity and none of our guys were dialed in to go for it.  At least 3 times the ball was on the turf and we just sat there picking our noses while TOR recovered.  Shambles.

[TecnoGenius]

...Sharpened finger nails? The off season has only just begun!

I got the idea from my football buddy who informed me about old school "coke finger".  Apparently people still do it.

Could also be the dude has garbage hygiene and his nails were super long and ragged/jagged and thick.

Who knows.  But what I do know is sit there and try your hardest to cut your knuckle with your nails.  It's basically impossible.  So explain how this DL dude did it to Zach?

P.S. That DL was HTFing us all night too.  Refs weren't flagging squat.

[Lincoln Locomotive]

If you ever noticed Bluto's hands on Bonfire Sports his hands are a mangled mess.   Can't imagine any OL or DL wearing their nails long for fear of having them ripped off (extremely painful and slow to heal).   It was a fluke type of injury but the timing couldn't have been any worse.   Wilson nearly was picked and for the life of me I'm not sure why they didn't run Brady instead of gambling that Wilson with little to no completions, would throw a strike on his first two pass attempts.  I'm sure Brady was thinking the same thing and he had been racking up the yards albeit TO may have loaded the box and dared the Bombers to pass.    The first one should have been a pick by Franklin in the end zone and we were lucky to get 3 points....however we could have taken the lead as opposed to being down a point late in the game.

[theaardvark]

Wonder why they didn't cut the thumb and other fingers out of the glove...

[blue_gold_84]

Wonder why they didn't cut the thumb and other fingers out of the glove...

I'm no glove expert but I doubt that would've helped.

[Throw Long Bannatyne]

Wonder why they didn't cut the thumb and other fingers out of the glove...

It was most likely the injury or the freezing that affected his passing, can't blame the gloves, most QB's wear them.

[dd]

I got the idea from my football buddy who informed me about old school "coke finger".  Apparently people still do it.

Could also be the dude has garbage hygiene and his nails were super long and ragged/jagged and thick.

Who knows.  But what I do know is sit there and try your hardest to cut your knuckle with your nails.  It's basically impossible.  So explain how this DL dude did it to Zach?

P.S. That DL was HTFing us all night too.  Refs weren't flagging squat.

That's the downside of having the ref and ump on the offensive side of the ball...the OL backs are to them and they can see illegal hands to the face by the OL, but they really don't get a good look at the hands to the face by the DL on the OL.

[TecnoGenius]

I'm no glove expert but I doubt that would've helped.

Nah, he's got a good point.  The final "touch" on the ball comes from the finger tips.  They could have put scissors to the other fingers.  Not enough time, and too much fluster/chaos.  They did get him fixed and back out in a very small amount of time.

Also worth remembering they gave him receiver gloves!  One would think the stickiness of those things would be counterproductive and detrimental for a QB?

[blue_gold_84]

Nah, he's got a good point.  The final "touch" on the ball comes from the finger tips.

Including the index finger, which he injured. That being covered by a glove would've affected his touch.

[theaardvark]

Including the index finger, which he injured. That being covered by a glove would've affected his touch.

Pretty sure the bandages on his index fgure makes that moot.  Uncovering fingers and thumb while leaving the rec glove sticky index finger might have been a much better option..

[blue_gold_84]

Pretty sure the bandages on his index fgure makes that moot.  Uncovering fingers and thumb while leaving the rec glove sticky index finger might have been a much better option..

That's more or less my point. His index finger being compromised negatively impacted his ability to throw, so I don't think modifying a glove would've helped.

[theaardvark]

Putting a sticky glove on 100% of his digits, instead of only the 20% that is already compromised, would be more "natural" for him.  The added stickiness on his bandaged index might compensate for his loss of tough/grip.

This is a "next time learning moment.  The therapist needs to have a selection of gloves with various fingers removed for quick application.

[Throw Long Bannatyne]

Nah, he's got a good point.  The final "touch" on the ball comes from the finger tips.  They could have put scissors to the other fingers.  Not enough time, and too much fluster/chaos.  They did get him fixed and back out in a very small amount of time.

Also worth remembering they gave him receiver gloves! One would think the stickiness of those things would be counterproductive and detrimental for a QB?

How did you identify them specifically as receiver gloves?

[TecnoGenius]

How did you identify them specifically as receiver gloves?

Someone said explicitly so in either the post-games or the year-wrap-up pressers.  I think if was MOS.  You can watch all the vids on the bb site.

It shocked me a bit when they said that!  That was the only gloves anyone had around (or ones that fit)!  Crazy.

[TecnoGenius]

This is a "next time learning moment.  The therapist needs to have a selection of gloves with various fingers removed for quick application.

You bet, absolutely.  Not having backup plans for "injured hand" is not a good look.  It's like that famous Staple-cleats story where one team was prepared like good boy scouts and the other team was floundering (and lost).

After that 1st INT Zach threw, they should have been moving to plan C, D & E, not sitting on plan B.

Similar to when Kramdi was injured no one had a clue how to properly run the D and get 12 guys on the field.  I hope MOS is giving all the unit coords/coaches and aides major heck this off-season.

[TecnoGenius]

That's more or less my point. His index finger being compromised negatively impacted his ability to throw, so I don't think modifying a glove would've helped.

It's really impossible to know without being Zach, or a pro QB, and trying out the various ideas.

I think the index finger (or thumb?) would be the final point of touch on the ball?  So ya, as long as that's covered, things will be off.  But maybe the other 4 digits being uncovered would have helped as well.

I hope Zach & the trainers/etc are working on figuring this stuff out in the off-season.  In the end it probably wouldn't have won us the cup, but you still want to do every single thing you can to gain advantage (or minimize disadvantage) in the big game!

[theaardvark]

How did you identify them specifically as receiver gloves?

There was mention of it post game.  Makes sense because none of out QB's wear gloves at all, and even if they did, you's neem aq larger glove to fit over the bandage, which might have been an additional issue if the other fingers were too big.. hence cutting off fingers/thumb making even more sense.

[dd]

Oooooor, you have a properly prepared #2 Qb sitting on the sideline , who can go in and run your offense competently in the event of injury!! How about that one!! Toronto's offense seemed to run just fine without their #1 Qb,  our state of affairs was such that we had no one to put in and our only option was to put in our injured Qb knowing full well he couldn't throw....not a good look for a so called elite team. THAT was our downfall, not not having a proper fitting glove so we can put our injured Qb back in the game. And its not like Streveller got injured the week before or anything, we had weeks and weeks to address this problem and didn't.

[TecnoGenius]

Oooooor, you have a properly prepared #2 Qb sitting on the sideline , who can go in and run your offense competently in the event of injury!!

MOS/Zach addressed this at length in both post-game and season-ender pressers.  I think they were trying to address is carefully so as to not through anyone under the bus.  MOS said Zach said he could do it and that was enough for him.  MOS says he'd do it again.

Zach said he thought he could do it, or at least worth a try, and he told the R's to be ready to come back to the ball as he wouldn't have as much air on it.

My opinion is after the first INT they should have brought in Wilson or Dolegala and gone for broke.  I probably give Wilson 1 series then throw in Dolegala.  Sometimes a brand new QB no one has any clue about can upset a D and make surprising things happen (see Kelly in '22 GC).

We'll never know.  (Keep in mind the 2nd INT was a tip so I can understand not blaming Zach for that and pulling him then, but the pull should have happened on the 1st INT which was untipped and a moderate underthrow, albeit with a great athletic play by the DB.)

[Waffler]

MOS said Zach said he could do it and that was enough for him.  MOS says he'd do it again.

...
My opinion is after the first INT they should have brought in Wilson or Dolegala and gone for broke.  I probably give Wilson 1 series then throw in Dolegala. 

"Argos head coach Ryan Dinwiddie said after the game the
moment he saw Collaros warming up, seeing how he could barely throw a
spiral, was the moment he knew his team was going to win.

I received different accounts from players, many of whom said it was
obvious their QB was hurting. That doesn't even account for
Collaros, who when he first got back to the huddle, told his teammates
that he couldn't fully trust his hand and warned his receivers they
would likely need to come back to the ball in case the pass was
underthrown." - Free Press

He was hurt. Dolegala was the logical move else why was he here for 2 months?

How many times do we have to play injured vets in the big game because THEY say they can do it? Coaches should not be swayed by sentiment or past results.

Do we win that game with someone other than Zack? It was a long shot and we'll never know but I still feel the smarter thing was to play the healthy guy and you at least give the team a chance.

[Throw Long Bannatyne]

"Argos head coach Ryan Dinwiddie said after the game the
moment he saw Collaros warming up, seeing how he could barely throw a
spiral, was the moment he knew his team was going to win.

I received different accounts from players, many of whom said it was
obvious their QB was hurting. That doesn't even account for
Collaros, who when he first got back to the huddle, told his teammates
that he couldn't fully trust his hand and warned his receivers they
would likely need to come back to the ball in case the pass was
underthrown." - Free Press

He was hurt. Dolegala was the logical move else why was he here for 2 months?

How many times do we have to play injured vets in the big game because THEY say they can do it? Coaches should not be swayed by sentiment or past results.

Do we win that game with someone other than Zack? It was a long shot and we'll never know but I still feel the smarter thing was to play the healthy guy and you at least give the team a chance.

Agree, O'Shea has to develop a more detached view of the personnel under his command with the focus on doing what's best for the team and not worrying about who the individual is that accomplishes the task.  Treat them equally like nameless soldiers, if Zach is a leader of the team he should do all he can to help his replacement achieve the end goal of winning for the team. 

Dinwiddie already knows this, he'll play QB Jack Sprat or whoever if he knows it will give him a better chance of winning.  A HC needs to focus more on numbers, not names.

[theaardvark]

Do we win wt someone not wearing #8?  Maybe.

Do we win with #8 who can't grip the ball.  Doubtful.

Do we win throwing the ball with an injured QB instead of handing every down to BO20?  Unlikely.

Best chance to win?  A QB with any number on his back handing the rock to BO20.  Heck, put Doloegala in as FB to block for a direct snap to BO20, take all the WR off the field, and load up a mega heavy jumbo Oline / wedge with Thomas and Schmeckle in as well and bully ball down the field.

After INT #1, ZC8 should not have been allowed to throw another ball more than 10 yards, if that.

Hindsight, 20/20.  Learning experience we should have had after AB4 last year.  Yes, experienced vets at 90% are better than backups.  But you have to be sure they are 90% and not 60%... or less.

Buck's optomistic playcalling (which mirrored his own QB play) was the coffin nail, though.  I don't think Lapo makes that mistake, which is why we need him here.

[Jesse]

Do we win wt someone not wearing #8?  Maybe.

Do we win with #8 who can't grip the ball.  Doubtful.

Do we win throwing the ball with an injured QB instead of handing every down to BO20?  Unlikely.

Best chance to win?  A QB with any number on his back handing the rock to BO20.  Heck, put Doloegala in as FB to block for a direct snap to BO20, take all the WR off the field, and load up a mega heavy jumbo Oline / wedge with Thomas and Schmeckle in as well and bully ball down the field.

After INT #1, ZC8 should not have been allowed to throw another ball more than 10 yards, if that.

Hindsight, 20/20.  Learning experience we should have had after AB4 last year.  Yes, experienced vets at 90% are better than backups.  But you have to be sure they are 90% and not 60%... or less.

Buck's optomistic playcalling (which mirrored his own QB play) was the coffin nail, though.  I don't think Lapo makes that mistake, which is why we need him here.

I agree with the first part of your post. Hard for me to say hindsight is 20/20 when they can see Zach is unable to grip the ball on the sideline before they sent him in. Or that having Terry throw the ball 4 straight times in the endzone without giving Brady the ball once was a good idea.

I also don't think Lapo would have changed anything. This was a conversation between Mike and Zach.

Also, Lapo is staying on TV. We don't need to keep mentioning him.

[theaardvark]

I agree with the first part of your post. Hard for me to say hindsight is 20/20 when they can see Zach is unable to grip the ball on the sideline before they sent him in. Or that having Terry throw the ball 4 straight times in the endzone without giving Brady the ball once was a good idea.

I also don't think Lapo would have changed anything. This was a conversation between Mike and Zach.

Also, Lapo is staying on TV. We don't need to keep mentioning him.

Buck called the plays.  Lapo definitely would have used BO20.  I have no doubt about that.

[dd]

Isn't it ironic that the Argos beat us not only once, but twice in the last 2 times we played them in the Grey Cup with their backup Qb leading them to victory??!! First it was MBT getting hurt and we all thought we won the game when this unknown Kelly guy came in and beat us. And this year with Arbuckle.

I can't believe that our game plan didn't have a scenario in it dealing with what happens when our #1 Qb goes down, how does the play calling change. Heck I know my high school football team did. Our #2 Qb has to go in, we know he can run these set of plays no problem, and these other plays are out of the question. It's all scripted. You mean to tell me in this day and age of next man up, we didn't have this for Dolegala?? I highly doubt that was the case. I think it was a case of a coach blindly trusting his veteran player saying he can get the job done, and doesn't. We got burnt with Biggie last year and Demski and Collaros this year.

C'mon man, get serious out there. When your #1 Qb can't grip the ball , its time to go to Plan B!!!

Doing the same thing over and over again, only to lose not 1 but 2 cups, makes you mad, but watching another team employ a game plan custom tailored to their #2 Qb shows you a smart coach who know sentiment has no place in the game!!

[Cool Spot]

Buck called the plays.  Lapo definitely would have used BO20.  I have no doubt about that.

Even I would have used BO20, and I would have had no idea what I'm doing.

[dd]

And that's the thing that's most upsetting. When we couldn't throw the ball because our Qb was hurt, run the ball. Good teams will run the ball, even when everyone in the stadium knows their going to run it, and still run it down their throat. We didn't even try to run it, ***!!!

[TecnoGenius]

Aren't y'all paying attention to what MOS has said at length about "just run Brady" when Wilson is in?  (Or when Zach was hurt.)

Let's trust he knows what he is saying.

Here is the D scheme for Wilson's pass attempts:

down / in-box / close-LB-run-support
1st 6 +2
2nd 4 +1
1st 4 +4
2nd 5 +0

MOS is right.  TOR was loading the box and diverting resources to stopping the run on first.  And on 2nd they are still devoting a lot to run stop even though they are all 2nd&10 and thus passing downs.

Wilson was probably told to RPO: read the scheme and if stacked box, pass.  Or Buck was monitoring alignment and telling him what to do pre-snap.

Also keep in mind TOR has a great front-7 (or 8!) that was limiting Brady all night except for 2-ish good runs.

I bet if I run the same analysis on TOR after Zach's injury we'd find the same thing.  TOR went into "you'll have to pass to beat us" mode, which is the correct thing to do in both situations.

Also of note: Wilson threw a perfect corner fade to Wheatie that was 100% catchable and Wheatie whiffed badly.  Kind of inexcusable for a GC, but I digress.  That was the Demski-offside play.  It wouldn't have counted but it proves Wilson maybe had something to offer if Zach was pulled.  They get that catch and TOR has to take the penalty and we get 1 more EZ shot.  (Brady also whiffs on a sneak-out to the flat pass that would have been 5-8Y, or maybe house if he makes the 1 DB miss.)

Looking at the schemes, the only run play that had any chance of success was a Brady-to-the-edge outside run, or maybe one of the faked sweeps, on 2nd down.  First down up the gut would have given us 1-3 probably, so I'm fine with the EZ attempts.  Wilson's first pass was badly underthrown but he dialed it in immediately after.  Not bad for a basically never-thrown-live QB.

The flat was also pretty much wide open most plays for a TE sneak-out or slow-dev crosser.  Problem was TOR's heat was getting in pretty fast, so plays had to be quick.  It would have been a perfect time to have Eli get his first catch wide open in the flat... if only someone had an ounce of creativity!

The sequence just reminds me of how the RECs were badly letting both QBs down all game.  Just pathetic no-talent and no-concentration by nearly all involved (including the "big" names!).

[Pete]

the thing is every OC knows when you put in a backup rookie qb the defence is going to come at him hard and expect the run by Olivera. Wilson needed to be game planned for this situation.
  Play action to brady then like a quick pass to the flats, no way can he wait for a play to develope.
  All he was doing was the same plays as what would have been called for Zac. Domigala would have been a much better choice to read options. Even a rollout and run would have been better. Wilson never stood a chance

[TecnoGenius]

All he was doing was the same plays as what would have been called for Zac. Domigala would have been a much better choice to read options. Even a rollout and run would have been better. Wilson never stood a chance

True, but Wilson did add a bit of a run threat.  Being the sneaker and Strev-replacement, you'd have to respect that he'd just take off.  2 of his 4 throws were good throws with bad REC whiffs.  I still would have gone with Wilson for the 1st series after the Zach INT (and he knew the book better).