Can we win 2025 with this coaching staff.

[theaardvark]

I am sure Wade Miller will sit down with Mike O'Shea and those two will have a heart-to-heart, head-to-head discussion about the state of the Winnipeg Blue Bombers. Neither one of them will be satisfied with another Grey Cup loss.

The simple fact is that in 2022,2023, and 2024 the Winnipeg Blue Bombers lost the Grey Cup game to a better team just like they won the Grey Cup in 2019 and 2021 because they were a better team.

The challenge in 2025 will be the same as it is for every team in the CFL -- field the best team possible and hope that it is the better team at the end.

There is no shame in meeting that challenge, playing in five Grey Cup games in a row, and winning the championship twice. I don't see another team in this league that comes close to that accomplishment. Toronto may get there eventually but the best they can claim at this point is to have won it 2 of the last 3 years.

The Winnipeg Blue Bombers are still, by a wide margin, the most successful team in the CFL in the last five years and I see no reason to believe they won't continue to be. Will there be change? Of course there will. Will they face adversity? Yes. But this culture of excellence isn't going anywhere for the foreseeable future and this Bomber fan is excited to see what lies ahead for this team and it's fans.

We did NOT lose to a better team this year.  Not even close.  We were 10 point favourites going into the game, a 10 point underdog is NOT a better team.

We were beaten, yes.  By a team with a backup starting.

I really think we beat ourselves, we outcoached ourselves and some players literally dropped the ball.  D was impressive, as always.  But our O stunk, and got worse, not better, as the game progressed.

[theaardvark]

I am big on KW's "puzzle piece" approach: look at the 1-3 players/positions that cost you the final game, and fix those (while trying to keep everything else fairly even).

I'm not sure what the piece is this FA.  What lost us the cup?  Well, a legit returner (bye Lucky) is the clear & obvious #1.

But beyond that... the whole REC corps stunk the joint out (well, maybe not Pokey), and "whole REC corps" is not an option as a puzzle piece!  So analysis will have to be done.  Would Schoen being in there have made all the difference?  Who knows.  But the unit as a whole came up extremely lacking, especially compared to the mostly-nobodies and rookies TOR has.  Unwanted Brissett playing 10X better than Demski?  That's not a sane world right there.

I'm not ready to throw any coaches under the bus as a puzzle pieces... yet.  But Buck is a big part of our lack of creativity and ability to win 3 in a row.  Every year he gets out-brained in these cups.

I also am not ready to throw Zach under the bus.  A lot of this isn't on him.  Like ageing, moody, mercurial, can't-win-a-WDF VAJ would be any better.

Lots of meat for discussion in the long off-season.

For this game, I am ready to hold Zach accountable for the loss.  Yes, Rec's dropped balls.  But he threw a lot of bad passes, and not many hit the rec's in stride or on spot.  The fact they did catch half the balls thrown *at* them was remarkable, IMHO.  Zach had time to throw, had receivers open, and did not execute to the level required in this most important game.  The finger was the icing on the cake, and the 2 post injury picks are on BUCK/MOS leaving him in AFTER he said "I can't grip the ball" and THEN calling passing plays.  The glove was a bad idea. 

Will Zach fix this next year?  He made adjustments after the 6-2 start.  I am willing to let him work it out.  He is tied with Fran Tarkenton (I was a Vikes fan growing up) with three championship losses... one more ties him with Jim Kelly and Frank Reich...

[TecnoGenius]

We game up 90 yards rushing on 18 plays which is a 5 yard average per carry. That doesn't say we shut down the Argo run game.

They shut down the run game in terms of explosions, pretty much.  They mostly limited Carey to 3-5Y on most carries.

Compared to what TOR could have done with their run, we did extremely well.  We did good enough that it was clear TOR shifted from a run-first to a pass-first O mid-game.  Coming into the game, I think most of us were worried that the RB trio in TOR with that OL and an iffy QB combined with our 3-man DL was going to result in massive run D exposure.  But it didn't.

The best run of the night by far was Brady's big one.

I'm very proud of our D in this regard.  If their total rush Y was elevated, it's more of a result of them having a long garbage-time, and them continually extending drives.

[TecnoGenius]

We did NOT lose to a better team this year.  Not even close.  We were 10 point favourites going into the game, a 10 point underdog is NOT a better team.

'22 GC the teams were somewhat even but we were robbed near the end.
'23 GC we were better but MTL lucked out on 2nd & 17 and 3rd & 3 with bold calls.  Stolen too.

'24 GC we were firmly smashed.  The fact it was 10-9 at the half meant we were doomed.  Should have been up 14 points then.  It was clear the plan and prep we had couldn't hold a candle to TOR.  Our RECs should have been running circles around them compared to their REC.

On paper we our O should cream their O.  Our RECs cost 3X to 4X total compared to theirs.  Our 1 RB is worth 3 of theirs... or more.

I think it comes down to planning and prep, and I firmly believe TOR was planning ways to beat WPG all year long (as well as MTL).  We do the "1 week at a time" thing, give no thought in-season to planning for the big game(s), and then lose.  I know KW thinks about it for the puzzle in FA, but no one else seems to.

The GC is not just another game.  We lose because we plan like it is.  The GC is a season-long prep.  Maybe we'll learn from this in time for 2025.

[dd]

To me, our offensive game planning cost us this game, plain and simple. We came out trying to hit the big one, and hit one, but missed on alot of other passes, and more or less abandoned the run--the thing that brought us to the dance.

I just don't understand why we ran the ball so little. When our passing game was struggling, why didn't we use more shorter passing plays the way toronto did with Arbuckle. 90% of Arbuckles passes were for 15 yards or less. The one interception he threw was on a deep pass--go figure!!

And when it was clear Zack couldn't pass, why have him throw the bombs or throw at all?? Where was Dolegala?? Sure he's not #1 material, but he's easily as good as Arbuckle, easily, and we didn't even dress him?? Why not??

I just don't understand our inability to adapt to things working/not working as the game goes on. Teams usually adapt, we didn't and that was our undoing.

[Throw Long Bannatyne]

To me, our offensive game planning cost us this game, plain and simple. We came out trying to hit the big one, and hit one, but missed on alot of other passes, and more or less abandoned the run--the thing that brought us to the dance.

I just don't understand why we ran the ball so little. When our passing game was struggling, why didn't we use more shorter passing plays the way toronto did with Arbuckle. 90% of Arbuckles passes were for 15 yards or less. The one interception he threw was on a deep pass--go figure!!

And when it was clear Zack couldn't pass, why have him throw the bombs or throw at all?? Where was Dolegala?? Sure he's not #1 material, but he's easily as good as Arbuckle, easily, and we didn't even dress him?? Why not??

I just don't understand our inability to adapt to things working/not working as the game goes on. Teams usually adapt, we didn't and that was our undoing.

Dolegala was dressed, I believe rules state 3 QB's must be on the roster.

[theaardvark]

'22 GC the teams were somewhat even but we were robbed near the end.
'23 GC we were better but MTL lucked out on 2nd & 17 and 3rd & 3 with bold calls.  Stolen too.

'24 GC we were firmly smashed.  The fact it was 10-9 at the half meant we were doomed.  Should have been up 14 points then.  It was clear the plan and prep we had couldn't hold a candle to TOR.  Our RECs should have been running circles around them compared to their REC.

On paper we our O should cream their O.  Our RECs cost 3X to 4X total compared to theirs.  Our 1 RB is worth 3 of theirs... or more.

I think it comes down to planning and prep, and I firmly believe TOR was planning ways to beat WPG all year long (as well as MTL).  We do the "1 week at a time" thing, give no thought in-season to planning for the big game(s), and then lose.  I know KW thinks about it for the puzzle in FA, but no one else seems to.

The GC is not just another game.  We lose because we plan like it is.  The GC is a season-long prep.  Maybe we'll learn from this in time for 2025.

If by "season long prep" you mean making your team the best it can be each and every week, better and better, then i will agree with you.

But until your opponent is decided and you KNOW who and what you are up against, any plans you make are out the door.  The week of the Grey Gup is the most important week of game planning and practice there is in the CFL.  Thinking you can skate in based on your season's accomplishments, well, I think we saw a little of that on Sunday. 

We were facing a backup QB who had a lot of film from previous games, with other teams.  We should have had him figured out play one.

We had 2 previous games against substantially the same D early in the year, with substantially our same O.  Our game plan out of the blocks sucked.  And if there was any adjustments being made, they sucked worse. 

If our coaches are top of the league, then we should have had a FAR better result, especially early on.  Instead, we handed them the game on a silver platter.

The Zach injury alone showed the flaw in our team. Putting him out there not being able to grip the ball and throwing an immediate pick was terrible coaching.  Putting him back out there after that, well, really?  Is there even words to describe how horrible a mistake that was?

Every loss needs to be flushed and the next game is a new opportunity.  Until the GC.  Now, that game needs to stay front and centre for the team, coaches, exec's, players all to reflect on.  Changes need to be made.  Some tweaks, some machette.  This team cannot enter 2025 without some major changes. 

It hurt losing Jefferson, Hardrick, Grant, Brown, Houston... and we're going to lose even more this off season.  I can't see Schoen coming back, someone is going to offer him more.  Lawler may be tough to sign as well.  The hoggies might be the place we see the least change, w should be able to keep them together.  We're going to lose at least one DB again. And there may be some retirements.

KW has his work cut out for him, and MOS has a tough decision to make about Buck.  I don't think we have an in house replacement at OC, but I bet there are those that would welcome an offer if we demote/dismiss Buck.  Which we definitely need to do. 

Lapo returning would be my first choice.  His technical expertise is outstanding.  Its unfortunate that he didn't work out as HC, but as an OC, I don't think there are many better.

If not Lapo, would Khari or Condell be options?  Or even a Bob Dyce coming home?  Is there someone else out there, maybe an ex-CFL QB that is coaching in the NCAA ready to make the move?

If not Lapo, do we hire Lapo as a consultant to make the short list for MOS to choose from?  His contact list must be huge, and he's spent the year analyzing what we are doing wrong, and what resources we have...

Going into 2025 status quo is not going to cut it.

[dd]

I'd like to know why we didn't use our MOP/MOC/league leading rusher more often. We totally went away from the run, and we stink when we do that. No surprise at all, especially when ZC is struggling, which underscores the importance of staying with the run even more. I just don't get our game plan. I just don't. There was no secret that Toronto was dressing 8 D lineman to keep the pass rush fresh. Run the stinking ball, throw some draw plays, do something other than chuck it 60 yards down the field for an incompletion, heck we couldn't throw it 15 yards for a completion!!

[dd]

I am big on KW's "puzzle piece" approach: look at the 1-3 players/positions that cost you the final game, and fix those (while trying to keep everything else fairly even).

I'm not sure what the piece is this FA.  What lost us the cup?  Well, a legit returner (bye Lucky) is the clear & obvious #1.

But beyond that... the whole REC corps stunk the joint out (well, maybe not Pokey), and "whole REC corps" is not an option as a puzzle piece!  So analysis will have to be done.  Would Schoen being in there have made all the difference?  Who knows.  But the unit as a whole came up extremely lacking, especially compared to the mostly-nobodies and rookies TOR has.  Unwanted Brissett playing 10X better than Demski?  That's not a sane world right there.

I'm not ready to throw any coaches under the bus as a puzzle pieces... yet.  But Buck is a big part of our lack of creativity and ability to win 3 in a row.  Every year he gets out-brained in these cups.

I also am not ready to throw Zach under the bus.  A lot of this isn't on him.  Like ageing, moody, mercurial, can't-win-a-WDF VAJ would be any better.

Lots of meat for discussion in the long off-season.

I agree the play calling was horrible, but Zack has to own some of this as well. His throws were hardly accurate all night, even before the injury. Post injury, I don't know why we were passing at all, or maybe a screen pass, but anything down field was pointless, he told everyone he couldn't grip the ball, duh, so let's tell him to pass it anyways!!?!

[The Zipp]

lots of work to do with the coaching including the head coach - not saying he should be fired but the team wasn't ready...mike miller - rookie special teams coach had a punt block dialled up but players don't know the rules...buck pierce - lots said already - not running when Wilson went in amoung many other things..,3 man rush over used...

why was nichols so bad?  coaching?  prep?

will MOS change his approach? i doubt it

[J5V]

I want to thank all of you for your contributions to this Bomber forum this Bomber season. I appreciate your statistics, analytics, knowledge, and passion and I learn something from each and every post which makes my experience as a fan of this remarkable football team so very pleasant. I thank you all and I look forward, Lord willing, to doing it all again with you next season. Thanks again.

[Jesse]

The Winnipeg Blue Bombers are still, by a wide margin, the most successful team in the CFL in the last five years

We did NOT lose to a better team this year.  Not even close. 

I don't think you can reasonably make either of these claims.

In the last 5 years, both Winnipeg and Toronto have the same amount of Grey Cup wins. We are not more successful by a wide margin.

And we went 0-3 against Toronto this season. And our record doesn't improve much if you go back to previous seasons. Hard to claim that we didn't lose to a better team.

[dd]

lots of work to do with the coaching including the head coach - not saying he should be fired but the team wasn't ready...mike miller - rookie special teams coach had a punt block dialled up but players don't know the rules...buck pierce - lots said already - not running when Wilson went in amoung many other things..,3 man rush over used...

why was nichols so bad?  coaching?  prep?

will MOS change his approach? i doubt it

He was by far our weakest link in our secondary and those who say he should be a hall of famer have got to give their heads a shake. I fully expect a new body in his spot next season. He was whipped like a rented mule all game....its called game planning, go after their weakest link...toronto gets full credit for exposing ours. We on the other hand, kept playing into toronto's strength, mcmanus ruled the middle on us all season, and was the primary reason we went 0-3 against them, so let's keep trying to attack his area of the field?!?! Poorest play calling and game strategy I've ever seen from our sideline. Time to get a new guy at OC, this guy doesn't understand the X's and O's of the game.

[Blueforlife]

Buck has been good in his time here with some head scatching moments to be sure.  I like our offensive game plan, bombs and runs.  We forgot about the run part in the GC.  We have seen much success with Buck and I would like him back but he needs to keep learning and adjust better.  I think in a few years he will be a great OC.  Worth waiting for that imo.

The other coaches are a lock imo.

I think we can win with this group.  Need a few new faces in key areas.  Will be an interesting off season.  SMS is a key factor.

A good debate on the OC here to be sure.

[ModAdmin]

The only weakness on the D is he 3 man front as I see it.  Far too often Arbuckle had way too much time to throw the ball.  Willie was great but Garbutt, Fox and Thomas struggled.