Return Game

[TecnoGenius]

I think Whitehead's versatility benefits the roster more than anything.

And with the receiving corps now mostly healthy, he's a luxury on offense as a potential plug-and-play piece, while also still contributing on special teams.

That's it.  Lucky's a no-fumble returner who has a remote possibility of breaking one.  But more importantly, he's a legit REC who can hurt opponents.  Sure, his hands suck, but it you get the ball to him while he's facing you, he'll make the catch.  And he's one great decoy on the go route because DBs have to respect his speed: great for clearing out the field for Kenny et al.

And a mature vet REC won't make the rookie mistakes.  You can't discount the importance of this at this stage.

Also, don't forget that to get Case in you would have to bench Lucky.  It's not like we have AR space for both... So you have to look at the whole package.

There is no one else I'd rather dress from our PR right now than Lucky.  (Everyone's forgetting the pain that was Mitchell we kept dressing before Lucky was signed...)

[TecnoGenius]

That's fair but they haven't used him really as a WR (but I agree that they should more). He has 3 catches on 4 targets for 17 yards over the last 6 games.

Are you conveniently forgetting the TD Lucky got that broke open an important game, his very first game back on the AR?  Wasn't that the first TD Zach threw all year?  That's the play that finally got Zach out of his funk.

I bet his catch/TD to snaps ratio is pretty good on our O.  He doesn't see the field much, so his lack of production isn't him just sucking and whiffing all the time.

I really hope the braintrust doesn't hold his big deep EZ whiff the other night against him... they need to work to his strengths and keep feeding him balls he can catch.

[TecnoGenius]

It's everybody, not the returner alone.

Have you noticed many (most?) teams take a IB or H penalty on every other return?  I think those teams are being coached to be very aggressive on the blocking and holding in the hopes that the refs can't see them all -- because they can't.

Someone needs to run the math on the pros of breaking more huge returns (or TDs) vs the cons of being sent back on 50%+ of returns.  It might turn out the "cheating" way is better.

Notice how WPG doesn't take very many IB/H hold calls on ST?  Because we're trying to play it clean.  It might be impossible to get good returns when you do this if you don't have a player named Grant, Owens, Gizmo, Pinball or Ishmael.

Then the conundrum becomes: can we find such a player?  or should we start cheating?  or just be satisfied we get 10-20Y each return and don't fumble?

If our O is clicking big time, just cleanly getting the ball back is enough.  We've just won 8 games "without a return game", after all...

(I know what I would have taken in the '22 GC if the choice was between an O that could move the ball more effectively vs Grant busting a TD...)

[Stats Junkie]

Have you noticed many (most?) teams take a IB or H penalty on every other return?  I think those teams are being coached to be very aggressive on the blocking and holding in the hopes that the refs can't see them all -- because they can't.

Someone needs to run the math on the pros of breaking more huge returns (or TDs) vs the cons of being sent back on 50%+ of returns.  It might turn out the "cheating" way is better.

Notice how WPG doesn't take very many IB/H hold calls on ST?  Because we're trying to play it clean.  It might be impossible to get good returns when you do this if you don't have a player named Grant, Owens, Gizmo, Pinball or Ishmael.

Then the conundrum becomes: can we find such a player?  or should we start cheating?  or just be satisfied we get 10-20Y each return and don't fumble?

- No, I haven't noticed a holding or IB penalty on every other kick in the CFL
- Math shows the number is closer to 7.5% rather than the 50+% suggested
- No, Winnipeg is no cleaner than other teams. Most teams, including Winnipeg, are grouped together with similar numbers.
- No conundrum

[LXTSN]

Are you conveniently forgetting the TD Lucky got that broke open an important game, his very first game back on the AR?  Wasn't that the first TD Zach threw all year?  That's the play that finally got Zach out of his funk.

I bet his catch/TD to snaps ratio is pretty good on our O.  He doesn't see the field much, so his lack of production isn't him just sucking and whiffing all the time.

I really hope the braintrust doesn't hold his big deep EZ whiff the other night against him... they need to work to his strengths and keep feeding him balls he can catch.

I was cherry-picking the last 6 games played because it feels like we've forgotten that he can actually be a really good receiver if we put him out there. Just feels like he gets on the field for 10% of the offensive snaps. I think we can use Whitehead better, especially on those underneath routes like you mentioned!
My point of this post was, if we aren't using Whitehead as a rotational WR but only as a KR and last resort back up WR, we might as well use the guy who has had more success returning the ball.

[Stretch]

- No, I haven't noticed a holding or IB penalty on every other kick in the CFL
- Math shows the number is closer to 7.5% rather than the 50+% suggested
- No, Winnipeg is no cleaner than any other teams. Mose teams, including Winnipeg, are grouped together with similar numbers.
- No conundrum

#FactChecked 

[LXTSN]

That's it.  Lucky's a no-fumble returner who has a remote possibility of breaking one.  But more importantly, he's a legit REC who can hurt opponents.  Sure, his hands suck, but it you get the ball to him while he's facing you, he'll make the catch.  And he's one great decoy on the go route because DBs have to respect his speed: great for clearing out the field for Kenny et al.

And a mature vet REC won't make the rookie mistakes.  You can't discount the importance of this at this stage.

Also, don't forget that to get Case in you would have to bench Lucky.  It's not like we have AR space for both... So you have to look at the whole package.

There is no one else I'd rather dress from our PR right now than Lucky.  (Everyone's forgetting the pain that was Mitchell we kept dressing before Lucky was signed...)

Yeah having a veteran backup WR is a great point in the argument for Whitehead. I think probably the best point in his favor.
I'd like to see what Case can do to be honest. I really liked him in the preseason as a WR and also when we've seen him as a KR this season.

[LXTSN]

I was cherry-picking the last 6 games played because it feels like we've forgotten that he can actually be a really good receiver if we put him out there. Just feels like he gets on the field for 10% of the offensive snaps. I think we can use Whitehead better, especially on those underneath routes like you mentioned!
My point of this post was, if we aren't using Whitehead as a rotational WR but only as a KR and last resort back up WR, we might as well use the guy who has had more success returning the ball.

- No, I haven't noticed a holding or IB penalty on every other kick in the CFL
- Math shows the number is closer to 7.5% rather than the 50+% suggested
- No, Winnipeg is no cleaner than any other teams. Mose teams, including Winnipeg, are grouped together with similar numbers.
- No conundrum

I don't think he meant the 50+% as a stat but as an experiment.
If a team were to be extra aggressive on blocking for returns, would it be worth it to take a penalty 50% of the time, if you knew you could break one for a TD 1/10 attempts?

[Sir Blue and Gold]

- No, I haven't noticed a holding or IB penalty on every other kick in the CFL
- Math shows the number is closer to 7.5% rather than the 50+% suggested
- No, Winnipeg is no cleaner than other teams. Most teams, including Winnipeg, are grouped together with similar numbers.
- No conundrum

...but isn't it true that the more times you watch a game on PVR the more penalties that are called?

[dd]

Have you noticed many (most?) teams take a IB or H penalty on every other return?  I think those teams are being coached to be very aggressive on the blocking and holding in the hopes that the refs can't see them all -- because they can't.

Someone needs to run the math on the pros of breaking more huge returns (or TDs) vs the cons of being sent back on 50%+ of returns.  It might turn out the "cheating" way is better.

Notice how WPG doesn't take very many IB/H hold calls on ST?  Because we're trying to play it clean.  It might be impossible to get good returns when you do this if you don't have a player named Grant, Owens, Gizmo, Pinball or Ishmael.

Then the conundrum becomes: can we find such a player?  or should we start cheating?  or just be satisfied we get 10-20Y each return and don't fumble?

If our O is clicking big time, just cleanly getting the ball back is enough.  We've just won 8 games "without a return game", after all...

(I know what I would have taken in the '22 GC if the choice was between an O that could move the ball more effectively vs Grant busting a TD...)

Man you are really into the tinfoil on this one....

[Waffler]

MOS used to be big on trick plays. I reminded of this by today's blast from the past post from Joe Pascucci.  A thing of beauty it was.

https://www.instagram.com/p/DBBx8SAuj8R/

[Stats Junkie]

MOS used to be big on trick plays. I reminded of this by today's blast from the past post from Joe Pascucci.  A thing of beauty it was.

https://www.instagram.com/p/DBBx8SAuj8R/

The Blue Bombers tried this play in the first half of that game but the officials blew the play dead as Matt Pearce was picking the ball up.

[Pigskin]

I would just like to see us run a draw when these teams are blitzing on us over and over again. 

[Throw Long Bannatyne]

I would just like to see us run a draw when these teams are blitzing on us over and over again. 

I don't think the Argos were blitzing much, they mostly created pressure with their front 4.

[TecnoGenius]

- No, I haven't noticed a holding or IB penalty on every other kick in the CFL
- Math shows the number is closer to 7.5% rather than the 50+% suggested
- No, Winnipeg is no cleaner than other teams. Most teams, including Winnipeg, are grouped together with similar numbers.
- No conundrum

I was using hyperbole to make a point.  Although I find the 7.5% number hard to believe.  Maybe I'm being swayed in my memory by a few select teams being particularly memorable and bad for IB/H.  There are some teams and some games where they were calling IB/H on one team every few returns.  (It might depend on the ref crew too.)

What's the % of returns with IB/H committed by each team, or maybe even just the 3 worst teams?  And how does the 7.5% number compare to previous years?  My main point is it feels like teams are holding more this season.

And I really can't believe for a second that WPG is committing even half the IB/H on ST that the worst team is.  What we've seen from WPG is they'll get 1-2 IB/H in a game one week and then work hard to clean it up 1-2 weeks later and go 100% clean.

You have the advantage of having all the stats that all "your guys" (paid?) produce with you -- we don't have that advantage -- so you'll need to enlighten us with the numbers to better judge what's going on.

I still maintain that WPG ST tries to play returns a lot cleaner than other teams.  Some games this year (and most years) you can hear MOS chirping to the refs after a return that the other team is IB/Hing.  It's one of his biggest bugbears, going by his chirp level.