It WAS RTP on Zach WPG@TOR

[TecnoGenius]

I'm changing my opinion of the non-RTP "push" on Zach WPG@TOR 2Q9:12:

It's RTP because of H2H.  (My apologies to the ones who spotted this correctly during the game and I disputed it.)

I think many saw what I saw live and in replay where the D guy (DE Parish) pushes Zach with both hands, and that did a great job hiding what else happened: Parish still gets the crown of his helmet right on Zach's lower grill/jaw and that causes Zach's head to swivel/twist right about 70 degrees in 1/10th a second, and then also snap his head back.

It doesn't matter that his hands hit first, it's still by rule an illegal hit on the QB's head.  And no, Zach didn't lower his head in defense, and his head didn't even lower of its own accord from the push.  In fact, Parish guy bends his head forward to clearly headbutt Zach when he had no reason to.  Nice little ploy by Parish to find a way to "cheat" punishment by using the hands as a decoy for the real action.

You almost cannot see it unless you freeze frame right as the helmets collide.  It's only 2-3 frames to work with on my PVR.

Zach was out cold.  No fakery (I wouldn't ever expect Zach to fake or writhe anyhow, he just isn't that (Cody) type of guy).  That's why the spotters took him out.  Clean out usually equals concussion.  (Bit surprised they let him back in but Zach seems to have weird reactions to head hits that don't follow usual norms.)

Those twists/rotating motions are well known as being the worst for brain injury, far worse than the "head on" type of things we normally see.  The quick rotation of that magnitude is more than enough to mess you up.

So now I'm angry: It's ok the refs missed it, the sneaky Parish was careful to hide what he did and it took 1-2 adamant posters here and my second careful watch of the correct 2 frames to see it.  BUT WHY DID COMMAND MISS THIS RTP CALL seeing as how the whole country watched Zach on TSN laying on the turf for many more seconds than is natural.  And to rub salt in the wound, a couple of plays later they yank Zach for protocol for the supposed non-head hit he just took??  Pfffft.

Remember, for RTP head shots they don't need any of the normal "egregious" or "clear and obvious" qualifiers: they can penalize even 2-frame hard-to-spot head blows like this one.  Just because a D has figured out how to game the system, doesn't give him carte blanche to go headhunting.

With all the QB-safety cries, the fact this goes uncalled gets my goat.  While I can miss it on my PVR spending only 10s on the play because I was 1h late getting to the game, command has no such excuse, especially because HE'S LAYING UNCONSCIOUS ON THE FIELD!

I would expect a fine for that player this week.  Looks like it's Parish, a nobody.  Still, doesn't help us win this game.  Add another +1 to bad officiating making our Ws even harder to come by.

[TecnoGenius]

The time between each frame is 33/1000 of a second, or a third of a tenth of a second!!  Your head twisting from facing straight forward to the resulting 70 degree angle (note the blue stripe position on Zach's helmet) in .066 of a second (2 frames) is very bad for your brain.

If the league hasn't caught onto this yet I would hope WFC points out this evidence to command and they issue an apology for missing it in game (even with Zach out cold and a (slight) delay of game), and a fine.

Zach doesn't have too many more of these in reserve before he'll have to pull a Ricky Ray and hang up the cleats.

Not to be flippant, but the strangest part of all is Zach was totally dialed in after this hit.  None of the usual underthrows or throwbehinds or bad decisions.  Zach was on fire that night and probably throws for 400+ if everyone and his dog hadn't let him down by prematurely stopping drives.

[Throw Long Bannatyne]

I'm changing my opinion of the non-RTP "push" on Zach WPG@TOR 2Q9:12:

It's RTP because of H2H.  (My apologies to the ones who spotted this correctly during the game and I disputed it.)

I think many saw what I saw live and in replay where the D guy (DE Parish) pushes Zach with both hands, and that did a great job hiding what else happened: Parish still gets the crown of his helmet right on Zach's lower grill/jaw and that causes Zach's head to swivel/twist right about 70 degrees in 1/10th a second, and then also snap his head back.

It doesn't matter that his hands hit first, it's still by rule an illegal hit on the QB's head.  And no, Zach didn't lower his head in defense, and his head didn't even lower of its own accord from the push.  In fact, Parish guy bends his head forward to clearly headbutt Zach when he had no reason to.  Nice little ploy by Parish to find a way to "cheat" punishment by using the hands as a decoy for the real action.

You almost cannot see it unless you freeze frame right as the helmets collide.  It's only 2-3 frames to work with on my PVR.

Zach was out cold.  No fakery (I wouldn't ever expect Zach to fake or writhe anyhow, he just isn't that (Cody) type of guy).  That's why the spotters took him out.  Clean out usually equals concussion.  (Bit surprised they let him back in but Zach seems to have weird reactions to head hits that don't follow usual norms.)

Those twists/rotating motions are well known as being the worst for brain injury, far worse than the "head on" type of things we normally see.  The quick rotation of that magnitude is more than enough to mess you up.

So now I'm angry: It's ok the refs missed it, the sneaky Parish was careful to hide what he did and it took 1-2 adamant posters here and my second careful watch of the correct 2 frames to see it.  BUT WHY DID COMMAND MISS THIS RTP CALL seeing as how the whole country watched Zach on TSN laying on the turf for many more seconds than is natural.  And to rub salt in the wound, a couple of plays later they yank Zach for protocol for the supposed non-head hit he just took??  Pfffft.

Remember, for RTP head shots they don't need any of the normal "egregious" or "clear and obvious" qualifiers: they can penalize even 2-frame hard-to-spot head blows like this one.  Just because a D has figured out how to game the system, doesn't give him carte blanche to go headhunting.

With all the QB-safety cries, the fact this goes uncalled gets my goat.  While I can miss it on my PVR spending only 10s on the play because I was 1h late getting to the game, command has no such excuse, especially because HE'S LAYING UNCONSCIOUS ON THE FIELD!

I would expect a fine for that player this week.  Looks like it's Parish, a nobody.  Still, doesn't help us win this game.  Add another +1 to bad officiating making our Ws even harder to come by.

You could be entirely correct, but Zach more than anyone knows the long term consequences of brain injuries and playing with concussions, so why in the world would he want to come back and finish the game? Is he trying to act macho with his family watching from the stands? He also passed concussion protocol so something doesn't add up if indeed he was knocked out cold.

[TecnoGenius]

You could be entirely correct, but Zach more than anyone knows the long term consequences of brain injuries and playing with concussions, so why in the world would he want to come back and finish the game? Is he trying to act macho with his family watching from the stands? He also passed concussion protocol so something doesn't add up if indeed he was knocked out cold.

He may be an old baller, but Zach is still a baller.  He knows our record (which is his record).  He knows we need to win.  He knows he was playing lights out (no pun intended).  He knows we're maybe in deep doodoo if just Strev is in.  (He also knows his job could be on the line if Strev lights it up for 500Y and 5TD...)

So ya, he's out cold and he knows it but doesn't care.  Almost no players would or do.

As for passing protocol: we see this all the time.  Guys who clearly were concussed, convulsing or lifeless for 10s... coming back in.  Concussions are funny things and often you don't have any effect until hours later or the next day.

Plus, I swear Zach is an anomaly.  There's something different about his brain.  Maybe it's all the rattling it's taken has morphed it.  I don't know.  But he's taken massive head whacks that would concuss & protocol most QBs -- remember the first big hit he took playing for WPG on a slide vs CGY?): he just jumped up and shrugged it off.

That could also explain why what most people thought was a nothingburger hit like this one actually had him out cold for longer than I've seen a QB in a long time.  And then get right back up blink twice and keep playing.

[Sir Blue and Gold]

Oh please. That wasn't roughing the passer.

[The Zipp]

I don't think it was RTP - I do believe that the spotter looks at the tv feed and because Zach was making a face/grimace after the hit they pulled him.  His head didn't smash on the turf at all so there wasn't evidence of that.  I am convinced they pulled him solely because of his facial reaction.

[Sir Blue and Gold]

I don't think it was RTP - I do believe that the spotter looks at the tv feed and because Zach was making a face/grimace after the hit they pulled him.  His head didn't smash on the turf at all so there wasn't evidence of that.  I am convinced they pulled him solely because of his facial reaction.

It's because he penguin-dived and sprawled out on the field facedown motionless for 5 seconds. I don't blame him for trying to get a call and I don't blame the spotter for taking him out because they can't possibly be tasked with determining who is concussed and who is faking one.

[TBURGESS]

Expecting the CC to call a penalty that might have happened in 2/10's of a second is nutsy coocoo. It does explain how a shove could have knocked Collaros out though. 

[theaardvark]

If there is sufficient helmet to helmet contact that a spotter takes a player out of the game, you gotta think that should be a penalty, even if it isn't RTP, it should be UR.

[Blue In BC]

If there is sufficient helmet to helmet contact that a spotter takes a player out of the game, you gotta think that should be a penalty, even if it isn't RTP, it should be UR.

Nope. At best it was a little late. Collaros might have hammed it up a bit to try and get a penalty. My initial feeling is that it hurt his earlier thorax injury.

[TecnoGenius]

Wow, I didn't expect that response!

Who was the 1-2 guys/gals in the GDT who were screaming RTP?  I want to hear from them.  They're the only ones who spotted it live.

I will stake my entire forum reputation (for what it's worth, lol) on this hit being H2H and causing Zach to black out for several seconds.  I will even go further and bet they are watching him real closely this week for after-effects of possible concussion.

I also will reiterate that the twisting snap of Zach's head in .033 to 0.066 of a second is a massively bad thing for a brain, and that was directly caused by the headbutt.

Yes, you can agree to all of the above and still think it's not RTP.  Or think the league shouldn't call it as RTP.  Once upon a time it wouldn't have been.

However, I will leave you with this:

Rule 7 - Fouls & Penalties
Article 3 - Grade 2 Unnecessary Roughness
Roughing the Passer
Delivering a direct blow to the passer's head or neck area with the helmet when the offender has a clear view to the passer and there are no mitigating circumstances.
L25 and AFD

Also for poops and giggles see Article 4(f) "Using the helmet to butt, ram.. to a passer"

[TecnoGenius]

Expecting the CC to call a penalty that might have happened in 2/10's of a second is nutsy coocoo. It does explain how a shove could have knocked Collaros out though.

Command auto-reviewed and reversed the SSK incomplete-or-fumble play.  That decision rested on the less than a tenth of a second as well.

The quickness of the issue or foul does not impact many types of calls.  One of these is RTP.  If you can managed to RTP and knock a guy out via the helmet in 1/10th of a second, you shouldn't get a free pass.

If nothing is done about this Zach hit, you will suddenly start seeing Ds come in and hit with both hands then "accidentally" have a H2H that no one sees like this one, and they get away with it.  If nothing is done, what this guy did is actually brilliant and we should start coaching it up to all guys.  It will be a free way to knock QBs out of games via concussion protocol.  I don't want this, but it will be the only smart option to compete with teams who could/will do this.

Half the league was up in arms about Biggie pushing and landing on Patterson the other day, and Patterson was uninjured.  He even got a fine.  And you think this clear knock-out and H2H will just pass without anyone saying boo?

I'll bet money this player is fined, and maybe (not holding my breath) even gets a comment from the league.

[TecnoGenius]

Nope. At best it was a little late. Collaros might have hammed it up a bit to try and get a penalty. My initial feeling is that it hurt his earlier thorax injury.

I'm fine with the timing.  It was very close, and no doubt the player could hold up a bit.  Not like he was fully committed.

BUT, the rule articles I quoted are irrespective of timing.  The D can hit early, late, next year, whenever: those head blows are in a special category where they cannot be done EVER no matter the timing!

I'm truly sorry that in the GDT I suggested he may have been trying for a RTP.  I know Zach is better than that (even though I kind of want our guys to writhe more as it does work on refs -- other QBs do it).  The dude was legit lights out, gonzo, seeing stars.  I only wish there was some way to ask him... though the answer may be a trade secret as I'm not sure WFC wants to admit he had "another one".  Each one makes him one step closer to being forced to retire.

[TBURGESS]

Command auto-reviewed and reversed the SSK incomplete-or-fumble play.  That decision rested on the less than a tenth of a second as well.

The quickness of the issue or foul does not impact many types of calls.  One of these is RTP.  If you can managed to RTP and knock a guy out via the helmet in 1/10th of a second, you shouldn't get a free pass.

If nothing is done about this Zach hit, you will suddenly start seeing Ds come in and hit with both hands then "accidentally" have a H2H that no one sees like this one, and they get away with it.  If nothing is done, what this guy did is actually brilliant and we should start coaching it up to all guys.  It will be a free way to knock QBs out of games via concussion protocol.  I don't want this, but it will be the only smart option to compete with teams who could/will do this.

Half the league was up in arms about Biggie pushing and landing on Patterson the other day, and Patterson was uninjured.  He even got a fine.  And you think this clear knock-out and H2H will just pass without anyone saying boo?

I'll bet money this player is fined, and maybe (not holding my breath) even gets a comment from the league.

Injury does not equal penalty. 

Turn over is not equal a single frame decision. Games would go on for a long long time if the CC had to pull each frame to see if it's a penalty. That's not what they're their for. They are to overturn obvious errors & and a single frame is far from obvious. 

Half the league was up in arms about the Biggie hit because it was an unnecessary cheap shot after the game was completely over. (zero on the clock) 

[blue_gold_84]

Command auto-reviewed and reversed the SSK incomplete-or-fumble play.  That decision rested on the less than a tenth of a second as well.

The quickness of the issue or foul does not impact many types of calls.  One of these is RTP.  If you can managed to RTP and knock a guy out via the helmet in 1/10th of a second, you shouldn't get a free pass.

If nothing is done about this Zach hit, you will suddenly start seeing Ds come in and hit with both hands then "accidentally" have a H2H that no one sees like this one, and they get away with it.  If nothing is done, what this guy did is actually brilliant and we should start coaching it up to all guys.  It will be a free way to knock QBs out of games via concussion protocol.  I don't want this, but it will be the only smart option to compete with teams who could/will do this.

Half the league was up in arms about Biggie pushing and landing on Patterson the other day, and Patterson was uninjured.  He even got a fine.  And you think this clear knock-out and H2H will just pass without anyone saying boo?

I'll bet money this player is fined, and maybe (not holding my breath) even gets a comment from the league.

I hope you didn't put any money down: https://www.cfl.ca/2024/08/01/two-players-fined-after-week-8-action/