The Non-Dribbled Non-OSK "Kick From Scrimmage" Again

Started by TecnoGenius, June 29, 2024, 08:38:54 AM

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theaardvark

#75
Quote from: Sir Blue and Gold on July 08, 2024, 05:31:46 PMYou can go after the ball but you cannot blow a guy up. It's a minimum 15-yard penalty if you do. You just have to apply common sense as to why.

The halo prevents a non0onside player from "blowing up" a returner.  Pretty sure a solid tackle isn't a penalty.  Otherwise Hansen would have gotten a penalty for that GC hit, or Ayers last game.  As an onside player, you have every right to be in the halo.  No reason I can see that stops you from making a solid tackle / forcing a fumble.  If you have a rule to quote, I'm eager to be corrected.  Obviously if you hit the retrner Before the ball arrives, that's interference... but once it's there, Boom.
Unabashed positron.  Blue koolaid in my fridge.  I wear my blue sunglasses at night.  Homer, d'oh.

Sir Blue and Gold

#76
Quote from: theaardvark on July 08, 2024, 05:38:32 PMThe halo prevents a non0onside player from "blowing up" a returner.  Pretty sure a solid tackle isn't a penalty.  Otherwise Hansen would have gotten a penalty for that GC hit, or Ayers last game.  As an onside player, you have every right to be in the halo.  No reason I can see that stops you from making a solid tackle / forcing a fumble.  If you have a rule to quote, I'm eager to be corrected.  Obviously if you hit the retrner Before the ball arrives, that's interference... but once it's there, Boom.

If an on-side player on a punt were to fly down the field at full speed and time his hit with the returner catching the ball it would be a penalty. Hands down. 100%. Argue it all you want.

theaardvark

Quote from: Sir Blue and Gold on July 08, 2024, 09:23:31 PMIf an on-side player on a punt were to fly down the field at full speed and time his hit with the returner catching the ball it would be a penalty. Hands down. 100%. Argue it all you want.

Not sure why you would think that.  If an onside player is in the halo when the ball is touched, and a ref throws a flag for no yards, eye in the sky will tell them to pick up the flag as the player had been onside. 

Show me a rule that says different?
Unabashed positron.  Blue koolaid in my fridge.  I wear my blue sunglasses at night.  Homer, d'oh.

dd

Rule 5 article 11 section e

The kicker or an onside player may enter the restraining zone and legally recover the kicked ball, but shall not interfere with an opponent attempting to recover the ball.

You're welcome

Pete

Quote from: dd on July 09, 2024, 02:58:21 AMRule 5 article 11 section e

The kicker or an onside player may enter the restraining zone and legally recover the kicked ball, but shall not interfere with an opponent attempting to recover the ball.

You're welcome
As long as you hit him just after the reception its legal then, you can be within the halo., so at worst  you can limit the return before he gets momentum , if you are able to  touch the football prior to his reception all the better

TecnoGenius

Found it Aards... I knew there was a specific rule just for this case:

Article 10 - No Yards
(e) if a kicking team player invades the 5-yard zone, and contacts in an unnecessarily rough manner a receiving team player who is attempting to play the ball, the kicking team player will be subject to 15 yard No Yards penalty and an addition 15-yard UR or 25-yard RP Disqualification penalty, regardless of whether the ball had struck the ground.


Note that unlike the preceding "normal" No Yards penalty, this rule does NOT specify offside/onside.  It applies to all kicking team players.  Even an onside player.  It is a special rule added in just for the onside-blowing-up-returner case.

So an onside guy can come into the halo and make a form tackle that does not appear "rough".  He cannot blow up the guy who caught the ball 0.5s ago.

Also, your Hansen example is a red herring because that occurred outside the halo.  The halo area is special no matter what kind of player you are.

Sir B&G is right: it has to be this way, as CFL returners play with an expectation of not having to look for being blown up.  They are looking up at the ball, not down at the gunners.  It would completely change the game if they had to worry about in-halo blowups that could end their season.
Never go full Rider!

theaardvark

Quote from: dd on July 09, 2024, 02:58:21 AMRule 5 article 11 section e

The kicker or an onside player may enter the restraining zone and legally recover the kicked ball, but shall not interfere with an opponent attempting to recover the ball.

You're welcome

Never said they should interfere with the recovery of the ball, that's a given on any "free ball" play.  Its the same rule as PI.  You can't impede a player's attempt at the ball.

He can hit the returner at the moment of catch and knock the ball loose instead of having to cover the five yard halo after the catch,

He can also attempt to catch the ball or knock it away, whilst not impeding the returner.

My point is that he can be in the halo when the ball arrives, and not have to wait for the returner to touch the ball to cross that 5 yard buffer.  Like a DB smoking a receiver as he catches the ball to cause the incomplete pass.  Except in this instance, the ball is live and any player, onside or not, can then take possession.
Unabashed positron.  Blue koolaid in my fridge.  I wear my blue sunglasses at night.  Homer, d'oh.

TecnoGenius

Quote from: theaardvark on July 09, 2024, 05:46:13 PMMy point is that he can be in the halo when the ball arrives, and not have to wait for the returner to touch the ball to cross that 5 yard buffer.  Like a DB smoking a receiver as he catches the ball to cause the incomplete pass.  Except in this instance, the ball is live and any player, onside or not, can then take possession.

From the wording of the rule I quoted, and the fact it gets its own special explicit rule, I would think a DB is allowed to smoke a receiver to a harsher degree than an on-side punt-gunner would be allowed to smoke a returner.

A DB can smoke a WR right after the ball comes in as long as he doesn't "Loffler" him, and as long as he doesn't do some writhing.

I seriously doubt an onside punt-gunner could get away with the same.  No, I think the rule would require you do a wimpy "form tackle" or you're going to take the special in-halo penalty.

But we've never seen an example in modern CFL... so who knows how the refs would call it.  And I bet if the refs screwed up command would step in and apply the halo-specific rules.
Never go full Rider!

theaardvark

Quote from: TecnoGenius on July 10, 2024, 05:19:09 AMFrom the wording of the rule I quoted, and the fact it gets its own special explicit rule, I would think a DB is allowed to smoke a receiver to a harsher degree than an on-side punt-gunner would be allowed to smoke a returner.

A DB can smoke a WR right after the ball comes in as long as he doesn't "Loffler" him, and as long as he doesn't do some writhing.

I seriously doubt an onside punt-gunner could get away with the same.  No, I think the rule would require you do a wimpy "form tackle" or you're going to take the special in-halo penalty.

But we've never seen an example in modern CFL... so who knows how the refs would call it.  And I bet if the refs screwed up command would step in and apply the halo-specific rules.

I guess my point is that there are no "halo specific rules" when if comes to onside players tackling inside the halo.  Should there be?  Maybe.  Is a returner catching a ball "defenseless"?  I guess you can argue that point.  Like a WR that goes up in the air trying to get a ball but misses it and then gets smoked. 

Just having that player able to puncture the "no fair catch" halo makes a returner incredibly more likely to drop the ball.  Making them second guess their catch could be an effective weapon for turnovers.
Unabashed positron.  Blue koolaid in my fridge.  I wear my blue sunglasses at night.  Homer, d'oh.

Blue In BC

Quote from: theaardvark on July 10, 2024, 04:58:09 PMI guess my point is that there are no "halo specific rules" when if comes to onside players tackling inside the halo.  Should there be?  Maybe.  Is a returner catching a ball "defenseless"?  I guess you can argue that point.  Like a WR that goes up in the air trying to get a ball but misses it and then gets smoked. 

Just having that player able to puncture the "no fair catch" halo makes a returner incredibly more likely to drop the ball.  Making them second guess their catch could be an effective weapon for turnovers.

I think if there was an onside player that entered the halo, he's more likely to make an effort to recover the ball than make a tackle.

I agree there should be / could be some rule protection to protect a defenceless returner even with an onside player.

It happens so seldom I'm trying to remember an onside kick recovery on a punt. Usually it's on a K/O where it's mad scramble to get to the ball 1st. It's not unusual to see an interference penalty on the receiving team.
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Sir Blue and Gold

Quote from: theaardvark on July 08, 2024, 09:47:21 PMNot sure why you would think that.  If an onside player is in the halo when the ball is touched, and a ref throws a flag for no yards, eye in the sky will tell them to pick up the flag as the player had been onside. 

Show me a rule that says different?

It's also just the most basic application of common sense imaginable.

TecnoGenius

Quote from: theaardvark on July 10, 2024, 04:58:09 PMI guess my point is that there are no "halo specific rules" when if comes to onside players tackling inside the halo.

There is!  I proved it in this post:
http://forums.bluebombers.com/index.php?topic=55772.msg1627498#msg1627498

That is a specific rule that covers all "kicking team players".  Even an onside gunner would activate this rule.  You can prove that is true by looking at the initial paragraph of Article 10, where they do make a distinction between offside/onside.

If onside gunners were exempt from 10(e) then instead of using the term "kicking team players" they would have used "player who is offside" like they did in the earlier instance.

I guarantee you 10(e) means you can't do anything remotely "blowing up" on a returner, regardless of your onside/offside status.
Never go full Rider!

Sir Blue and Gold

#87
Quote from: TecnoGenius on July 10, 2024, 11:08:24 PMThere is!  I proved it in this post:
http://forums.bluebombers.com/index.php?topic=55772.msg1627498#msg1627498

That is a specific rule that covers all "kicking team players".  Even an onside gunner would activate this rule.  You can prove that is true by looking at the initial paragraph of Article 10, where they do make a distinction between offside/onside.

If onside gunners were exempt from 10(e) then instead of using the term "kicking team players" they would have used "player who is offside" like they did in the earlier instance.

I guarantee you 10(e) means you can't do anything remotely "blowing up" on a returner, regardless of your onside/offside status.

You're right. Of course you can't.

The fact that it needs to be spelled out to someone that a player cannot run 50 yards down the field at full speed and drill a player standing still looking up into the sky is astounding.

Pete

Quote from: Blue In BC on July 10, 2024, 05:18:31 PMI think if there was an onside player that entered the halo, he's more likely to make an effort to recover the ball than make a tackle.

I agree there should be / could be some rule protection to protect a defenceless returner even with an onside player.

It happens so seldom I'm trying to remember an onside kick recovery on a punt. Usually it's on a K/O where it's mad scramble to get to the ball 1st. It's not unusual to see an interference penalty on the receiving team.
Ive seen it used when kickers are punting into a big wind, the ball hangs up and doesn't go a far distance. And no, you can't blow up the returner but of course you can tackle him. Just have to do so cleanly without intent to injure.

theaardvark

Quote from: TecnoGenius on July 10, 2024, 11:08:24 PMThere is!  I proved it in this post:
http://forums.bluebombers.com/index.php?topic=55772.msg1627498#msg1627498

That is a specific rule that covers all "kicking team players".  Even an onside gunner would activate this rule.  You can prove that is true by looking at the initial paragraph of Article 10, where they do make a distinction between offside/onside.

If onside gunners were exempt from 10(e) then instead of using the term "kicking team players" they would have used "player who is offside" like they did in the earlier instance.

I guarantee you 10(e) means you can't do anything remotely "blowing up" on a returner, regardless of your onside/offside status.

You cannot " and contacts in an unnecessarily rough manner a receiving team player who is attempting to play the ball,"  onside or off.  note the word attempting.  Once the ball has been played, open season.  Just like PI, once the ball is touched, you can hit 'em. 

An offside player has to cover 5 yards before hitting them.  And onside player can be less than a yard away.  Timing is essential...

And when I say "smoke" a player, its never meaning an illegal hit, or "unnecessarily rough".  I'm talking a clean hit of intensity, like Ayers hit last game or the Hansen hit in the GC...
Unabashed positron.  Blue koolaid in my fridge.  I wear my blue sunglasses at night.  Homer, d'oh.