"Chipped" Footballs

Started by ModAdmin, June 07, 2024, 04:49:04 PM

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ModAdmin

This issue has taken on a life of it's own. 

John Hodge, 3DownNation, takes a look at the problem with views from around the league...

https://3downnation.com/2024/06/07/sergio-castillo-rips-cfls-new-chipped-footballs-fellow-kickers-come-to-his-defence/
"You can't let praise or criticism get to you. It's a weakness to get caught up in either one." - John Wooden

Blue In BC

Effective immediately, use of chipped balls will be optional and decided at the beginning of the game by each team.

Ok. That was fast.
2019 Grey Cup Champions

ModAdmin

"You can't let praise or criticism get to you. It's a weakness to get caught up in either one." - John Wooden

dd

Wow, didn't know they were doing that and my apologies Sergio for cursing you last night!! I'll curse the CFL instead!!

DCM

Quote from: Blue In BC on June 07, 2024, 09:48:18 PMEffective immediately, use of chipped balls will be optional and decided at the beginning of the game by each team.

Ok. That was fast.
Should kick in for week two. Why does Montreal/Winnipeg have to use them but the rest of the teams for the week get to not to. Actually unfair there.
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KINGCHARLES

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dd

Funny how the chipped ball didn't affect Montreal's kicking game.....

ModAdmin

Montreal's kicker missed a convert.
"You can't let praise or criticism get to you. It's a weakness to get caught up in either one." - John Wooden

TecnoGenius

Quote from: Blue In BC on June 07, 2024, 09:48:18 PMEffective immediately, use of chipped balls will be optional and decided at the beginning of the game by each team.

I'm assuming they mean for the kicking game only?!  O still has to use chipped balls?

Quote from: DCM on June 08, 2024, 01:13:52 AMShould kick in for week two. Why does Montreal/Winnipeg have to use them but the rest of the teams for the week get to not to. Actually unfair there.

Great point.  Sergio gets to be the guinea pig?  Lame.
Never go full Rider!

TecnoGenius

Quote from: dd on June 08, 2024, 02:58:42 AMFunny how the chipped ball didn't affect Montreal's kicking game.....

Ya.  MOS talking about it made it sound like an "excuse" even though he said Castillo isn't one for "excuses".  Fans often don't like that kind of "whine", even if it is legit.  Something about bad workmen and tools, etc, lol.

However, since kicking is 95% a mind game, if Sergio wants to blame the ball instead of admitting to a Lirim H<many letters> night, then I say let him, and let's all play along!  If he needs his "magic feather" then give it to him.  Chances are it'll help him fly kick better next game.

My opinion is he probably just had an off night, but maybe he's right, who knows, and who cares.  I did not boo him, and kept my son from doing so as well.  Dude needs to make that next kick (no matter which week), and booing won't help him succeed.
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TecnoGenius

Hey wait, weren't the balls also chipped in 2023?!?  I'm nearly positive we were told they were chipped in 2023 because they put out a notice players weren't allowed to chuck balls in the stands anymore.

On a couple of FG's at PAS that went into the stands I noticed the workers went up and retrieved the balls.  If I was there it'd be under my seat and I'd be saying "what ball?"  ;D  ;D

If they were chipped in 2023 then why is this only affecting Castillo now??

Next question: the guys who INT the ball and walk off with it (like Cole)... do they have to give it back too?  Or pay the $500 price to keep it??
Never go full Rider!

bluengold204

I think they use different balls for kicks that weren't chipped.

TecnoGenius

Also, if they knew the 2024 kick balls were going to be chipped, weren't they all practicing with the chipped balls all through TC and PS??  It would seem rather unprofessional to have practiced all this time with the ball you weren't going to use in the game!
Never go full Rider!

TecnoGenius

Oh, from the other thread:

 "Effective immediately, teams will no longer be mandated to use microchip-implanted footballs for kicking plays."

(thanks Waffler)  Just putting this in the Chipped thread so we have clarity in this narrow-focus thread.
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TecnoGenius

Quote from: Sir Blue and Gold on June 07, 2024, 03:17:38 PMI don't really understand what kind of data they are getting from the chips on a field goal anyway? The technology has existed for a ton of years to determine how far a kick would sail or how far it would have been good from without using a chip. Velocity? Force? Like what is it? And why would anyone care?

(Move from the MOS thread)

I would love to use the chip to get a definitive answer to those FGs that sail high over the posts, but are directly over a post.  The only thing we have for those is the ref standing directly under that one post.  If he blinks or gets it wrong, there's zero recourse.

A camera facing straight up right at the top of each post would help too.  Maybe with some gun-sight type crosshairs on the image?  A coordinated direct side-view plus direct-up view showed side-by-side in synced time would allow fans/command to determine if a ball was truly in or not.

With the current cameras it's anyone's guess as you can't tell the exact moment it goes over the post on a ball slowly drifting from inside to outside.
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DCM

Quote from: TecnoGenius on June 08, 2024, 05:13:38 AMAlso, if they knew the 2024 kick balls were going to be chipped, weren't they all practicing with the chipped balls all through TC and PS??  It would seem rather unprofessional to have practiced all this time with the ball you weren't going to use in the game!
"Castillo said chipped balls weren't used during Winnipeg's first preseason game in Regina"

"If I went 60 percent (with the chipped footballs during practice in training camp), that was a great day. When we went with normal balls, (I was) 90-plus percent"

Quote from: TecnoGenius on June 08, 2024, 04:34:35 AMHey wait, weren't the balls also chipped in 2023?!?  I'm nearly positive we were told they were chipped in 2023 because they put out a notice players weren't allowed to chuck balls in the stands anymore.

On a couple of FG's at PAS that went into the stands I noticed the workers went up and retrieved the balls.  If I was there it'd be under my seat and I'd be saying "what ball?"  ;D  ;D

If they were chipped in 2023 then why is this only affecting Castillo now??

Next question: the guys who INT the ball and walk off with it (like Cole)... do they have to give it back too?  Or pay the $500 price to keep it??
"The league began inserting chips into their footballs for select games in 2023, though they weren't used in the kicking game. Castillo credited Winnipeg's player union representatives Adam Bighill, Mike Benson, and Jake Thomas for rebuffing an attempt from the league to use the chipped balls in last year's West Final due to concerns over accuracy, though the prevention was short-lived."
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TecnoGenius

Quote from: DCM on June 08, 2024, 05:26:25 AM"Castillo said chipped balls weren't used during Winnipeg's first preseason game in Regina"

Thanks for the clarifications, they are very helpful in sorting this out.

Interesting, they did get to use chipped balls for kicking in TC.  Strange that they noticed an issue then, but waited until week 1 to petition the league?

I fully believe Castillo and MOS, but it seems like all parties dropped the ball here.  Does Castillo get an asterisk next to his 2024 stats when the season is over?
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Waffler

Should be a poll perhaps but my vote is that 100% the chip will make the ball move on FGs.  When the ball goes end over end with one side heavier it is going to move.

If they ever decide they want less field goals all they will have to do is put the chip back in the kicking game. It sort of is like roulette though and less to do with skill.
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Waffler

Two things I think would effect how much movement you would get.

1. the spin on the ball
2. the hold. the farther to the side the chip is the more movement

If you got a perfect end over end with the chip dead center would be most ideal. Right now the chip is beside the lace and holders try to put the lace facing forward making the ball weighted off center.
Buried in the essentially random digits of pi, you can find your eight-digit birthdate. (Is that a wink from God or just a lot of digits?) - David G. Myers
__________________________________________________
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TBURGESS

I'd like to see all the FG kickers in the league kick 10 chipped and 10 unchipped balls without telling them which was which to see if the chip makes any real difference or is it just in their heads. 
Winnipeg Blue Bombers - 2019 Grey Cup Champs.

Waffler

Quote from: TBURGESS on June 08, 2024, 03:08:59 PMI'd like to see all the FG kickers in the league kick 10 chipped and 10 unchipped balls without telling them which was which to see if the chip makes any real difference or is it just in their heads.
So you are trying to prove every kicker in this league and two other professional leagues wrong?
Buried in the essentially random digits of pi, you can find your eight-digit birthdate. (Is that a wink from God or just a lot of digits?) - David G. Myers
__________________________________________________
Everything seems stupid when it fails.  - Fyodor Dostoevsky

TBURGESS

Quote from: Waffler on June 08, 2024, 03:21:37 PMSo you are trying to prove every kicker in this league and two other professional leagues wrong?
No. I'm looking for some actual data to show that they are right or wrong. 

If a QB says that the chip causes his deep balls to be inaccurate, would you simply accept it or would you want some kind of proof?
Winnipeg Blue Bombers - 2019 Grey Cup Champs.

The Zipp

Quote from: TBURGESS on June 08, 2024, 03:08:59 PMI'd like to see all the FG kickers in the league kick 10 chipped and 10 unchipped balls without telling them which was which to see if the chip makes any real difference or is it just in their heads.

The fact they didn't do this before meaningful games started is what is bush league about CFL - Ambrosie and this love affair with incompetent Genius sports

Waffler

Quote from: TBURGESS on June 08, 2024, 03:45:48 PMNo. I'm looking for some actual data to show that they are right or wrong.

If a QB says that the chip causes his deep balls to be inaccurate, would you simply accept it or would you want some kind of proof?

I believe physics to be the proof.
Buried in the essentially random digits of pi, you can find your eight-digit birthdate. (Is that a wink from God or just a lot of digits?) - David G. Myers
__________________________________________________
Everything seems stupid when it fails.  - Fyodor Dostoevsky

TBURGESS

Quote from: Waffler on June 08, 2024, 04:09:39 PMI believe physics to be the proof.
Then you shouldn't be against testing your 'proof'.

Lets say you're right. Chips affect the ball. Both teams have chipped balls, therefore... things are equal. It's like playing in the rain or snow or wind or on a bad field. As long as both teams have to deal with the same thing, then equality is reached and that's all that matters. 
Winnipeg Blue Bombers - 2019 Grey Cup Champs.

Throw Long Bannatyne

Quote from: TBURGESS on June 08, 2024, 04:21:18 PMThen you shouldn't be against testing your 'proof'.

Lets say you're right. Chips affect the ball. Both teams have chipped balls, therefore... things are equal. It's like playing in the rain or snow or wind or on a bad field. As long as both teams have to deal with the same thing, then equality is reached and that's all that matters.

You're dismissing the additional stress an added uncertainty adds to a very stressful job. Real or imagined, glad the league listened to the kickers and acted promptly to keep them happy.

TBURGESS

Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on June 08, 2024, 04:35:06 PMYou're dismissing the additional stress an added uncertainty adds to a very stressful job. Real or imagined, glad the league listened to the kickers and acted promptly to keep them happy.
The kickers who handle the stress and uncertainty better will have better results. That's true, chipped or unchipped. 

As for what the league did.. I'd have liked it better if they made the change after the first week of play, not after the first game of the week to make it equal for all but the bye team.
Winnipeg Blue Bombers - 2019 Grey Cup Champs.

TecnoGenius

Castillo said he ran that the suggested test in TC (though not "blind") and the difference was 60% vs 90%.

So do we believe him or not?  I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.  Why not?

Would a scientific, blind test be better?  Of course, but are they going to do that?  Probably not, because it's a moot point now.

Now, you want to complicate things: if the chip affects a kick, which has insane force on it, then why wouldn't it affect a thrown ball?  You'd think the latter would be even more susceptible.  Zach's balls were looking like wobblers a lot... then again, they had them in 2023, so who knows anymore.

Why don't they just put the chips dead center in the ball when building it??
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dd

Quote from: TecnoGenius on June 09, 2024, 03:43:03 AMCastillo said he ran that the suggested test in TC (though not "blind") and the difference was 60% vs 90%.

So do we believe him or not?  I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.  Why not?

Would a scientific, blind test be better?  Of course, but are they going to do that?  Probably not, because it's a moot point now.

Now, you want to complicate things: if the chip affects a kick, which has insane force on it, then why wouldn't it affect a thrown ball?  You'd think the latter would be even more susceptible.  Zach's balls were looking like wobblers a lot... then again, they had them in 2023, so who knows anymore.

Why don't they just put the chips dead center in the ball when building it??
Why put the chip in at all??

theaardvark

When a kicker THINKS there is an issue, there is an issue...  their game is so mental that if he thinks there might be a difference, there will be a difference.
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TecnoGenius

Quote from: dd on June 09, 2024, 04:35:33 AMWhy put the chip in at all??

Well, that goes back to the original question/rationale.  Whether kicking or passing a chip could actually help in some ways.  I'm not sure if they're doing it yet, but you could possibly:

- instantly and definitively know if the ball passed the plane, or stayed within the posts: imagine no more relying on refs who can't see in the pile!

- all sorts of new stats you could track for kickers & passers: how strong are they? how tight is the spiral?

It's actually pretty cool, but clearly you have to make it completely "invisible" to the players.  So build the ball with the chip in the dead center.  Ya, so you can never change it out or change batteries or whatever.  So what, just throw the whole ball away when the chip goes bad.

Make it so there is 100% no difference to a normal ball: dead center, and take out the same amount of ball weight so it's completely identical.

But ya, if the tech isn't ready and not showing immediate rewards, just ditch chipped ball until it is ready.  Let another league be the guinea pigs.
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Blue In BC

Quote from: TecnoGenius on June 09, 2024, 11:39:59 AMWell, that goes back to the original question/rationale.  Whether kicking or passing a chip could actually help in some ways.  I'm not sure if they're doing it yet, but you could possibly:

- instantly and definitively know if the ball passed the plane, or stayed within the posts: imagine no more relying on refs who can't see in the pile!

- all sorts of new stats you could track for kickers & passers: how strong are they? how tight is the spiral?

It's actually pretty cool, but clearly you have to make it completely "invisible" to the players.  So build the ball with the chip in the dead center.  Ya, so you can never change it out or change batteries or whatever.  So what, just throw the whole ball away when the chip goes bad.

Make it so there is 100% no difference to a normal ball: dead center, and take out the same amount of ball weight so it's completely identical.

But ya, if the tech isn't ready and not showing immediate rewards, just ditch chipped ball until it is ready.  Let another league be the guinea pigs.


A chip won't determine whether a player is down even if the ball crosses the line. It could be an additional tool but it wouldn't be definitive all on it's own.

I thought I heard that the chip the other league uses is 3.3 grams but the CFL one is 13.3 grams. At the very least they should use the small one.
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Throw Long Bannatyne

#32
Quote from: Blue In BC on June 09, 2024, 12:56:33 PMA chip won't determine whether a player is down even if the ball crosses the line. It could be an additional tool but it wouldn't be definitive all on it's own.

I thought I heard that the chip the other league uses is 3.3 grams but the CFL one is 13.3 grams. At the very least they should use the small one.

I fail to see how a chip alone could determine precise field position, wouldn't it have to be correlated with other equipment under the field or on the sidelines that specified the first down marker?  The Bombers just replaced their turf, maybe they "wired" the field at the same time.  I don't think satellite technology has the level of precision needed.

pdirks67

Quote from: TBURGESS on June 08, 2024, 03:08:59 PMI'd like to see all the FG kickers in the league kick 10 chipped and 10 unchipped balls without telling them which was which to see if the chip makes any real difference or is it just in their heads.

100%!

How did the CFL NOT do this before adopting the change? You'd think that this would have been super-easy during training camps, and a no-brainer to do before adopting a change that anyone should have seen as a potential issue.

TecnoGenius

Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on June 09, 2024, 03:33:48 PMI fail to see how a chip alone could determine precise field position, wouldn't it have to be correlated with other equipment under the field or on the sidelines that specified the first down marker?  The Bombers just replaced their turf, maybe they "wired" the field at the same time.  I don't think satellite technology has the level of precision needed.

Ya, sensors in the turf are possible, or even a sensor at each corner and some sort of signal triangulation.  The latter could determine the precise location of the ball in realtime, including any plane-breaking.

All depends what tech they are doing, and what they want to do.  Who really knows.  However, it helps illustrate that the idea may not be completely without merit.
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TecnoGenius

QuoteThe league issued a statement Friday afternoon indicating 'Effective immediately, teams will no longer be mandated to use microchip-implanted footballs for kicking plays' adding, "The league has tested these footballs using robotic technology and current CFL players. While there is no definitive evidence to suggest their use impacts performance in any manner, we are taking this step out of respect for kickers who do not yet feel comfortable using them."

Haha, this is actually a burn by whoever @CFL is writing this.  It's a dig at Castillo et al.

Of course, it could be that, in the end, Castillo is right and the joke's on the league, and the above quote is pure hubris by nerds sitting in a computer room somewhere (I can say that, as I am one).  Who do you trust more, robots or the kickers?

Funnily enough, it would be super easy to definitively determine the truth: let Castillo kick X chipped balls and Y "heritage balls", without knowing which is which.  If Castillo can then tell you which was chipped at a statistically significant rate, then Castillo is right and the balls need to go or be fixed somehow.
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ichabod_crane

Let's get some brain implants while we are at it! Did Streveler's head cross the line on short yardage?! :D Cyborg mania! ;) I'LL BE BACK! :D

Waffler

#37
MOS on the coaches show:

First day back at practice using the regular football again,  Sergio hit 8 of 9, 2 over 50 yards, straight and true.  He chalked the game performance up to the chip.

He "tends" to think the chip changes the flight of the ball. Radical post flight tailing he had never seen before during the game and saw zero in the practice after, using the regular football again.

Taylor added to watch the convert take off to the right. Both blame the chipped ball.

https://podcasts.apple.com/si/podcast/the-blue-bombers-podcast-feed/id1110429736

caller at 18:40 minutes in.
Buried in the essentially random digits of pi, you can find your eight-digit birthdate. (Is that a wink from God or just a lot of digits?) - David G. Myers
__________________________________________________
Everything seems stupid when it fails.  - Fyodor Dostoevsky

Stretch

Quote from: Waffler on June 11, 2024, 02:52:00 PMFirst day back at practice using the regular football again,  Sergio hit 8 of 9, 2 over 50 yards, straight and true.  He chalked the game performance up to the chip.

He "tends" to think the chip changes the flight of the ball. Radical post flight tailing he had never seen before during the game and saw zero in the practice after, using the regular football again.

Taylor added to watch the convert take off to the right. Both blame the chipped ball.


To the untrained eye (which we all have), it did seem like quite a few FG and convert attempts had a bit of a slice or unusual trajectory.
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Throw Long Bannatyne

Quote from: Stretch on June 11, 2024, 03:38:49 PMTo the untrained eye (which we all have), it did seem like quite a few FG and convert attempts had a bit of a slice or unusual trajectory.

I find it a bit disappointing Sergio allowed himself to be totally psyched out by this chip issue, he actually said "I don't know where to aim?" which seems contrary to a kickers mindset as what they're kicking shouldn't interfere with their process or execution even if it's a pumpkin.  Don't think it would have rattled Medlock.

Q: did Medlock retire as a Bomber and if not, why not?

Jesse

Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on June 11, 2024, 06:36:40 PMI find it a bit disappointing Sergio allowed himself to be totally psyched out by this chip issue, he actually said "I don't know where to aim?" which seems contrary to a kickers mindset as what they're kicking shouldn't interfere with their process or execution even if it's a pumpkin.  Don't think it would have rattled Medlock.

Q: did Medlock retire as a Bomber and if not, why not?

If you take his concerns at face value, he wasn't "psyched out", he was unsure which direction the ball would go once in the air because of the weight imbalance of the ball.

I don't think Medlock retired as a member of any team, but he played for like 18 different teams in his career.
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