Blue Bombers add three to roster - April 2, 2024

Started by ModAdmin, April 02, 2024, 05:53:55 PM

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Waffler

Quote from: TecnoGenius on April 09, 2024, 10:29:42 PMTake Lawler: he was brought back as the puzzle piece to win the GC that got away in '22.  We thought we needed just that little bit extra on O.  And it was right: we make that last curl pass on O in '22 and we win that cup.  But here's the thing: the Lawler puzzle piece move then failed to win the '23 cup in the exact same way.  We need a few yards on 2nd down to win the game and we failed.  By that metric, Lawler, as a puzzle piece, was a bust.  A very very expensive bust.

Not sure about your wanting to pin horns on Lawler.  901 yards in 12 games. and the longest average gain of his career 18 yards per catch.

Sure you can say defense wins championships but you can also say it's a team game and Lawler is just one man. One who contributes I might add. Should we say Colloras lost the Cup because he floated a sure touchdown pass for seemingly no reason? And if you want to say our D was not strong enough, then you can also blame the coaches for letting Bighill play. Not sure what Lawler did wrong once he did get on the field.
Buried in the essentially random digits of pi, you can find your eight-digit birthdate. (Is that a wink from God or just a lot of digits?) - David G. Myers
__________________________________________________
Everything seems stupid when it fails.  - Fyodor Dostoevsky

Pete

was just looking at our rookie receivers...doesn't Keytaon Thompson remind you of a younger Bailey?  6ft 4 217 lbs, bailey 6ft 1 217 lbs,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=afgg8xrzzm0
even runs sweeps.

TecnoGenius

Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on April 11, 2024, 06:18:54 PMThe problem with bringing an experienced MLB in from another team is most of the good ones are already earning in the ball park of $150k, which is about what Bighill is getting paid. Wilson could potentially take over that role if they could find his replacement at WIL.

Your $ point makes my point, though.  When the time comes we can probably get a top 3-5 year vet MLB for about the same $ as Biggie.  Thus it makes a very attractive fallback should we not find the next Biggie through scouting (which we never have, BTW, in the last decade).

I think we all would love to scout a top MLB prospect, groom him in '24 and have him start and be the next Singleton in '25 whilst still on ELC.  But my money is on reality being we just buy a FA when Biggie finally retires.  But both are possible.

As for Wilson: he's like a bigger Cole.  Fast but not bruising.  I'm pretty sure that he will never start for us @ MLB unless a bad injury situation arises.  He does seem smart, though.  I think there's a reason, though, that we tended to start one of our vet NATs at MLB during short injury intervals or garbage season, though (Gauthier? Briggs? Miles? ya, and Clements too on the IMP side).

I realized what it is I think a MLB needs to be, in my mind at least... they need to be that Muamba or Biggie standing 2Y back from the GL on X & goal from the 1, staring down the QB and hitting or jumping the pile to make that GL stop.  That's not Wilson or Cole because they don't have the mass (especially per height).  Next is brains.  Big football brains.  Then range, and relatedly, speed.
Never go full Rider!

TecnoGenius

Quote from: blue_gold_84 on April 11, 2024, 07:10:29 PMThere's nothing logical about trying to force a player to retire and use some questionable formula of "balance of age and salary" when all a GM has to do is either not offer a new contract or simply release the player and void an existing contract.
[...]
I don't even know what to make of this. It seems like you're making some pretty baseless accusations leveled at Walters and some players going back to last year.

To be devil's advocate for TLB, he could have been meaning that we could get stuck with a player who completely loses his effectiveness early in the season.

Let's say Biggie can play/start but for some reason just flails around out there (I think of Randle's last couple of games with us, and it makes me sad).  If that's week 3, that could be big trouble.  If we need to A.Bowman him then we're on the hook for the guaranteed / vet stuff, lose the signing bonus, and whatever else the contract/CFLBA stipulates.  Worse, we're then left with no choice but to pick through the mid-season couch-sitters for a viable replacement.

The sin here would then be thinking this could happen to a player like Biggie (again, not injury/6GIR, but playable but useless)... it could, fair point, but it's very unlikely.

As for the KW talk: it's fair to question if KW has gone a bit nuts with the O/WRs, if the Kenny deal started it, if he's throwing good money after bad or saving face... and whether it's the best path for the Bombers.  I'm not saying that, but it is fair to have that opinion, because KW is riding a very fine line at the moment.  We all sense we've morphed pretty blatantly into an O-centric team.  And that makes the D-fanatics among us used to the 2018-2019-ish Bombers nervous.

In defense of KW, he has proven very right for most of these years.  The Mafia does a very good job in their formulations and plans.  That's why I said let's give the Kenny puzzle piece another year to pan out.  '23 was a messed up year for Kenny, and it hurt our team in some ways.  A no-distractions year might yield different GC results.
Never go full Rider!

TecnoGenius

Quote from: Waffler on April 11, 2024, 09:25:46 PMNot sure about your wanting to pin horns on Lawler.  901 yards in 12 games. and the longest average gain of his career 18 yards per catch.

Sure you can say defense wins championships but you can also say it's a team game and Lawler is just one man. One who contributes I might add. Should we say Colloras lost the Cup because he floated a sure touchdown pass for seemingly no reason? And if you want to say our D was not strong enough, then you can also blame the coaches for letting Bighill play. Not sure what Lawler did wrong once he did get on the field.

My point is subtler... it's not a dig at Kenny, it's just pointing out that as the biggest puzzle piece brought in to seal that cup, he was a failure.  Not because he didn't get some GC yards: but because we didn't win the cup!

It has nothing to do with any one play or series or even the INT.  It's not blaming Kenny or Zach or the OL or the blockers or the decoy routes for that INT.  It's just chess.  We changed a pawn to a knight in '23 because in '22 if we had just that one extra knight we would have won (well, and a Castle Castillo Rook instead of a Leggy pawn, too): in theory.  That's what I'm thinking KW was thinking, and since none of us knows, my guess is as good as anyone's.  That's how I'd think about it.

And no dig on Kenny because I'm still ok with the move, and I'm also ok on his retention for '24.  I think he can use a full-season of momentum to get more in the zone by GC and get us 150Y and be the Geroy Simon-in-the-EZ-in-2013 we need him to be in the '24 GC.
Never go full Rider!

TecnoGenius

Quote from: Pete on April 11, 2024, 09:39:39 PMwas just looking at our rookie receivers...doesn't Keytaon Thompson remind you of a younger Bailey?  6ft 4 217 lbs, bailey 6ft 1 217 lbs,

Tall ones make me nervous.  They get injured a lot (Agudosi, Rogers, N.Moore), and sometimes made it to where they are based, at least in part, on height bigotry instead of production.

And if a tall one escapes the clutches of the NFL that usually means something is really wrong, because if you're tall and good in the USA, you're in the NFL.  That's why the 5'7 to 6'1 crowd makes such great CFL scouting finds... can be top notch hands/brains/routes but too short to be NFL-viable.  Weston Dressler, anyone?

But hey, if he's the next Rogers-in-his-prime, then I'm game!  Just not sure I want him taking the mega hits Bailey could take.
Never go full Rider!

Throw Long Bannatyne

Quote from: TecnoGenius on April 12, 2024, 07:12:25 AMYour $ point makes my point, though.  When the time comes we can probably get a top 3-5 year vet MLB for about the same $ as Biggie.  Thus it makes a very attractive fallback should we not find the next Biggie through scouting (which we never have, BTW, in the last decade).

I think we all would love to scout a top MLB prospect, groom him in '24 and have him start and be the next Singleton in '25 whilst still on ELC.  But my money is on reality being we just buy a FA when Biggie finally retires.  But both are possible.

As for Wilson: he's like a bigger Cole.  Fast but not bruising.  I'm pretty sure that he will never start for us @ MLB unless a bad injury situation arises.  He does seem smart, though.  I think there's a reason, though, that we tended to start one of our vet NATs at MLB during short injury intervals or garbage season, though (Gauthier? Briggs? Miles? ya, and Clements too on the IMP side).

I realized what it is I think a MLB needs to be, in my mind at least... they need to be that Muamba or Biggie standing 2Y back from the GL on X & goal from the 1, staring down the QB and hitting or jumping the pile to make that GL stop.  That's not Wilson or Cole because they don't have the mass (especially per height).  Next is brains.  Big football brains.  Then range, and relatedly, speed.

At one time Biggie was the best MLB in the league no question, I think it could be argued now that there are at least 4-5 MLB's that are more dominant and much younger.  Same goes for Alexander at Safety, these guys are fast approaching their expiry date as great players.

blue_gold_84

Quote from: TecnoGenius on April 12, 2024, 07:23:03 AMTo be devil's advocate for TLB, he could have been meaning that we could get stuck with a player who completely loses his effectiveness early in the season.

Let's say Biggie can play/start but for some reason just flails around out there (I think of Randle's last couple of games with us, and it makes me sad).  If that's week 3, that could be big trouble.  If we need to A.Bowman him then we're on the hook for the guaranteed / vet stuff, lose the signing bonus, and whatever else the contract/CFLBA stipulates.  Worse, we're then left with no choice but to pick through the mid-season couch-sitters for a viable replacement.

The sin here would then be thinking this could happen to a player like Biggie (again, not injury/6GIR, but playable but useless)... it could, fair point, but it's very unlikely.

As for the KW talk: it's fair to question if KW has gone a bit nuts with the O/WRs, if the Kenny deal started it, if he's throwing good money after bad or saving face... and whether it's the best path for the Bombers.  I'm not saying that, but it is fair to have that opinion, because KW is riding a very fine line at the moment.  We all sense we've morphed pretty blatantly into an O-centric team.  And that makes the D-fanatics among us used to the 2018-2019-ish Bombers nervous.

In defense of KW, he has proven very right for most of these years.  The Mafia does a very good job in their formulations and plans.  That's why I said let's give the Kenny puzzle piece another year to pan out.  '23 was a messed up year for Kenny, and it hurt our team in some ways.  A no-distractions year might yield different GC results.

I'd argue that's the risk every GM of a consistently successful team runs with regard to player retention at key positions and balancing a roster to have sufficient depth. It's just the nature of the business, IMO.

We're at a point with the organization where the team has enjoyed significant and consistent success for nearly five years, if not longer. But that undoubtedly comes with a price. Key contributors are typically remunerated with raises to retain their services and that can mean making some tough choices and losing depth pieces (Clements, Gray, Hansen, O'Leary-Orange) or even some adored veterans (Bailey, Hardrick, Houston, Jeffcoat, Rose). That's why it's imperative to have competent scouting and keep the pipeline replenished in order to maintain a certain level of competitiveness. I would argue that level of scouting has been maintained the last few seasons but this one could be the most challenging yet for Walters and co.; time will tell. I think it's too early to hit any panic button, though. If anyone has earned some leeyway with his managerial decision-making, it's Kyle Walters.

I'm not sure I can agree that he's riding a fine line based on the team spending more money on offense the last year or so. The offense has been a driver of the team's success going back to 2021 but that hasn't necessarily come at the price of the defense falling off in terms of its production or capability. The depth on that side of the ball has taken a hit and I think the loss of Jeffcoat in particular will be felt. The offense may have to pick up the slack but considering how potent it's been the last few seasons, I'm comfortable positing that it's up to the task should the need arise. There's also the wildcard of scouts unearthing the next talented piece who can step up and make a name for himself. That potential excites considering how well the scouts have done lately.

Whether Walters' decisions create an imbalance obviously remains to be seen. I'm just of the opinion that a wait and see approach is sensible, especially in mid-ish April. There's still rookie camp, training camp, and pre-season (and even early on in the regular season) for new talent to be assessed and for potential shortfalls to be addressed as that relates to the team's changed complexion.

This organization is a well-oiled machine and is the benchmark for sustained success in the CFL. At present, I don't see that changing into the 2024 season because some tough decisions had to be made this off-season.
#forthew
лава Україні!
Don't be a Rich.

Throw Long Bannatyne

Quote from: blue_gold_84 on April 11, 2024, 07:10:29 PMQuite the hill upon which you've chosen to die here. And still no logic from the look of it, obvious or not.

There's nothing logical about trying to force a player to retire and use some questionable formula of "balance of age and salary" when all a GM has to do is either not offer a new contract or simply release the player and void an existing contract.
Bryant re-signed, so it seems like a logical conclusion he wants to keep playing for at least another year. He remains one of the best at his craft.
Same with Bighill: he's on the final year of his contract and has made no hint that he's done playing. He's not the impact player he once was but he's still pretty effective when he plays. It also seems like a logical conclusion that Clements* isn't the answer, hence his departure. 
I can only speculate but both come across as athletes who would want to retire on their own terms, and not be influenced by others to do so - regardless of the logic applied.

* who was only here for two seasons in what was largely a backup role

I don't even know what to make of this. It seems like you're making some pretty baseless accusations leveled at Walters and some players going back to last year.

You're getting all twisted over semantics, "forced to retire" just refers to a player being cut and not being able to sign with another team. Nobody is forcing anyone to quit football, but if a past all-star is being eased out the door, it's better the team use kid gloves and try to negotiate a softer landing for that player, at least from a public perception standpoint.

blue_gold_84

Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on April 12, 2024, 02:55:44 PMYou're getting all twisted over semantics, "forced to retire" just refers to a player being cut and not being able to sign with another team. Nobody is forcing anyone to quit football, but if a past all-star is being eased out the door, it's better the team use kid gloves and try to negotiate a softer landing for that player, at least from a public perception standpoint.

Semantics do matter, especially when the term "forced retirement" gets thrown into the equation. Semantics should also matter to anyone who's overly concerned with something as immaterial as public perception or other such optics. These are professional athletes, not children who need to be coddled or placated when their contract demands aren't met. The team comes first and that's exemplified by this organization as well as any in the CFL.

I'm guessing your vexation with Walter stems from Jeffcoat's unexpected departure more than anything. How that played out falls at the feet of not only the GM but also the player. It takes two parties to negotiate a contract and the vast majority of that transaction takes place behind closed doors, which seems especially unique in the CFL. How the public perceives any of it is irrelevant.

The fact that no other team ostensibly reached out to him since free agency began should be the most telling public perception of all, IMO.
#forthew
лава Україні!
Don't be a Rich.

Waffler

Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on April 10, 2024, 06:07:28 PMBryant and Biggie were the logical candidates to be pushed towards retirement

I believe Biggie has guaranteed money this year. 100k. So for whatever he makes over that is what you'd have to pay his replacement just to break even. Biggie is going to play, barring injury.
Buried in the essentially random digits of pi, you can find your eight-digit birthdate. (Is that a wink from God or just a lot of digits?) - David G. Myers
__________________________________________________
Everything seems stupid when it fails.  - Fyodor Dostoevsky

theaardvark

Its hard to argue Walters results.  4 straight GC appearances for his players, 2 rings.

With every decision about who to keep and who to let walk, he will be judged at the end of the year.  He knows that.  And he does not make those decisions lightly.

Sometimes, players make those decisions for him, either by signing inflated contracts elsewhere, or looking for more than he is comfortable offering (for whatever reason), and we sign someone else to his job.  Regardless the reason, Walters will be judged on it.

His decisions are not always popular, but they cannot be argued against as being ineffective, given his results year after year. 

The scouts are going to have to bring in a bumper crop this year, for this year and going forward, replacing a lot of our veterans including Bighill, Bryant and Jefferson. 

But the Canadian Mafia has a proven record, and I can't see that changing anytime soon.
Unabashed positron.  Blue koolaid in my fridge.  I wear my blue sunglasses at night.  Homer, d'oh.

Blue In BC

I see Givhan was added to the retired list. Not sure if he is moving away from a football career or whether this is a short term need due to some injury or family issue.

Regardless, missing TC as essentially a rookie usually is the end.
2019 Grey Cup Champions

Throw Long Bannatyne

Quote from: Blue In BC on April 13, 2024, 03:05:06 PMI see Givhan was added to the retired list. Not sure if he is moving away from a football career or whether this is a short term need due to some injury or family issue.

Regardless, missing TC as essentially a rookie usually is the end.

Looks like Givhan was a DE, can't recall if he received any game time or not but that brings it down to 4 newish DE's + Bennett competing for possibly 2 roster positions.

Blue In BC

#59
Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on April 13, 2024, 05:40:32 PMLooks like Givhan was a DE, can't recall if he received any game time or not but that brings it down to 4 newish DE's + Bennett competing for possibly 2 roster positions.

I don't think he had any game time but was on the PR for awhile.

Haba has to be somewhat of a front runner at DE, but that could change early in TC. Not sure whether Waggoner is a DE, DT or can play both. He's 20 lbs heavier and 2" shorter than Jefferson but I have no idea on his speed or quickness. Listed as a DL and not as either a DE or DT. That may mean nothing or something.

Hew as listed as a LT DE/Edge player for Iowa Buckeyes.
2019 Grey Cup Champions