Jefferson is back

Started by bwiser, December 04, 2023, 09:09:40 PM

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bwiser

Good news today as Jefferson is coming back for another season. No word on the terms of the deal other than it is a one year deal. Its a good day in Winnipeg as Niederieter has resigned with the Jets as well.

theaardvark

Guessing there was a little bit of cheese left in the 2023 budget, enough to entice Willie to sign early.  One of the most mportant signings, because its not just keeping him here, but he is a great asset in recruitment.He actually got Lemon to consider Winnipeg (too bad we already had two top notch DE's under contract)
Unabashed positron.  Blue koolaid in my fridge.  I wear my blue sunglasses at night.  Homer, d'oh.

Blue In BC

Good news to get him back so early. Not sure if it's an indication of having some 2023 SMS left. Anyway. One down and 35 to go. :)
2019 Grey Cup Champions

Throw Long Bannatyne

Quote from: Blue In BC on December 04, 2023, 10:07:52 PM
Good news to get him back so early. Not sure if it's an indication of having some 2023 SMS left. Anyway. One down and 35 to go. :)

I imagine he will receive about the same pay as last season which was $200k, which ties him for 4th highest paid D-lineman in the league.

ModAdmin

Blue Bombers agree to terms on one-year extension with all-star defensive end Willie Jefferson

WINNIPEG, MB., December 4, 2023 - The Winnipeg Blue Bombers today announce the club has agreed to terms with defensive end Willie Jefferson on a one-year extension. Jefferson was scheduled to become a free agent in February.

Jefferson (6-7, 242, Stephen F. Austin; born: January 31, 1991, in Beaumont, TX) returns in 2024 for his fifth season with the Blue Bombers and 10th in the Canadian Football League, including his days with Edmonton (2014-15) and Saskatchewan (2016-18).

Named a CFL All-Star for the fifth time in his career in 2023, Jefferson was also selected as the Blue Bombers' Most Outstanding Defensive Player for a third time after posting a team-leading 11 quarterback sacks, three forced fumbles - tied for second in the CFL - and 13 pass knockdowns (most in the league), and 21 defensive tackles.

In 2022, Jefferson became the first player in CFL history to record 50 career sacks and 50 pass knockdowns and his 37 career sacks ties him for ninth on the Blue Bombers all-time list.

Jefferson was also named the 2022 recipient of the Ed Kotowich 'Good Guy Award' which recognizes a Blue Bombers player who has 'excellent football ability, is a leader in the locker room and shows outstanding effort in the community.'
"You can't let praise or criticism get to you. It's a weakness to get caught up in either one." - John Wooden

TecnoGenius

Is Willie always on a one-year now a WFC ask or a Willie ask??  Or both?

I guess with vets getting guaranteed stuff after 1 year now, it could be both... one would think on the tail end of Willie's career that he'd like to lock a team in for 3.  That's the usual M.O. for ageing vets, isn't it?

In any event, it's great to have him signed and done.  It's clear KW's M.O. is to sign the huge names first to use as leverage and bait to lure the rest into staying.  It's worked for several years now.

Getting Brady or Schoen locked in would be the next logical step... And Jeffcoat.  And Stan/Yoshi.  Of course, assuming we aren't planning on letting a few of the "huge name" oldsters walk this year... I think Biggie is locked in for another season already?...
Never go full Rider!

blue_gold_84

Love it. Always a good sign to have a leader and veteran re-up early.
#forthew
лава Україні!
Don't be a Rich.

VictorRomano

Quote from: TecnoGenius on December 05, 2023, 02:37:13 AM
Getting Brady or Schoen locked in would be the next logical step... And Jeffcoat. 

This may be a hot take, but Jeffcoat has been making big cash yet only played parts of the last 2 seasons.  He's missed a not-insignificant amount of playing time.  Assuming he wants to test the FA market and holds out until February rather than re-sign with BC, I'd flip Jeffcoat's salary and make a serious run at Betts - he's younger (although maybe not cheaper), with more potential upside (I think Jeffcoat has peaked), and with the right passport.

Alternatively, I'd take the savings, scout out a rookie or journeyman DE, and use the saved cash to make Dru Brown the highest-paid non-starting QB in the league.

GOLDMEMBER

Quote from: VictorRomano on December 05, 2023, 01:39:41 PM
This may be a hot take, but Jeffcoat has been making big cash yet only played parts of the last 2 seasons.  He's missed a not-insignificant amount of playing time.  Assuming he wants to test the FA market and holds out until February rather than re-sign with BC, I'd flip Jeffcoat's salary and make a serious run at Betts - he's younger (although maybe not cheaper), with more potential upside (I think Jeffcoat has peaked), and with the right passport.

Alternatively, I'd take the savings, scout out a rookie or journeyman DE, and use the saved cash to make Dru Brown the highest-paid non-starting QB in the league.
Yes great to see Willie return!

Chances Brown resigns hear is a pipe dream to me.
I LOSHT MY MEMBER IN AN UNFORTUNATE SHMELTING ACCSHIDENT!

Jesse

Quote from: VictorRomano on December 05, 2023, 01:39:41 PM
This may be a hot take, but Jeffcoat has been making big cash yet only played parts of the last 2 seasons.  He's missed a not-insignificant amount of playing time.  Assuming he wants to test the FA market and holds out until February rather than re-sign with BC, I'd flip Jeffcoat's salary and make a serious run at Betts - he's younger (although maybe not cheaper), with more potential upside (I think Jeffcoat has peaked), and with the right passport.

Alternatively, I'd take the savings, scout out a rookie or journeyman DE, and use the saved cash to make Dru Brown the highest-paid non-starting QB in the league.

Our team is much worse without Jeffcoat.
My wife is amazing!

blue_gold_84

Quote from: Jesse on December 05, 2023, 02:53:30 PM
Our team is much worse without Jeffcoat.

Agreed. I also don't see the Lions letting Betts walk; they'll pay up.
#forthew
лава Україні!
Don't be a Rich.

Blue In BC

Quote from: blue_gold_84 on December 05, 2023, 03:47:57 PM
Agreed. I also don't see the Lions letting Betts walk; they'll pay up.

Betts is from Montreal so that could factor into the equation. Given the same money he may choose living out east.

Two seasons in Edmonton and then two in Vancouver.
2019 Grey Cup Champions

Throw Long Bannatyne

#12
Quote from: Blue In BC on December 05, 2023, 04:23:02 PM
Betts is from Montreal so that could factor into the equation. Given the same money he may choose living out east.

Two seasons in Edmonton and then two in Vancouver.

Good point, could see the potential of this happening, he'll probably be looking for at least $225k.

Throw Long Bannatyne

Quote from: VictorRomano on December 05, 2023, 01:39:41 PM
This may be a hot take, but Jeffcoat has been making big cash yet only played parts of the last 2 seasons.  He's missed a not-insignificant amount of playing time.  Assuming he wants to test the FA market and holds out until February rather than re-sign with BC, I'd flip Jeffcoat's salary and make a serious run at Betts - he's younger (although maybe not cheaper), with more potential upside (I think Jeffcoat has peaked), and with the right passport.

Alternatively, I'd take the savings, scout out a rookie or journeyman DE, and use the saved cash to make Dru Brown the highest-paid non-starting QB in the league.

Jeffcoat's not that hungry, he either signs on for another year or hangs up his cleats, unlikely he starts over with another team.  Willie comes from different circumstance, poor from a big family, he's hustled all his life and was probably first in line at Walters door with contract and pen in hand. One more year!

Sir Blue and Gold

I'd pass on Jeffcoat, Bighill, Rose and Miller for sure.

Pigskin

Jefferson and Jeffcoat are both 32, a few years left in there careers. Lemon is 35 and still playing at a high level. My only problems with Jeffcoat is he has only played in 78 games in 6 years. Average 13 games a year. The man is a force when healthy. But, at 13 games a year what is he worth?
Don't go through life looking in the rearview mirror.

Jesse

Quote from: Pigskin on December 05, 2023, 07:15:56 PM
Jefferson and Jeffcoat are both 32, a few years left in there careers. Lemon is 35 and still playing at a high level. My only problems with Jeffcoat is he has only played in 78 games in 6 years. Average 13 games a year. The man is a force when healthy. But, at 13 games a year what is he worth?

Exactly what we've been giving him, imo. He's a difference maker.
My wife is amazing!

GOLDMEMBER

I am on the fence with Jeffcoat but as stated he is just not healthy consistent enough so I guess move on from.

Move on from Bighill, Miller, and Rose for sure.
I LOSHT MY MEMBER IN AN UNFORTUNATE SHMELTING ACCSHIDENT!

Throw Long Bannatyne

Quote from: GOLDMEMBER on December 05, 2023, 07:37:50 PM
I am on the fence with Jeffcoat but as stated he is just not healthy consistent enough so I guess move on from.

Move on from Bighill, Miller, and Rose for sure.

His pass rush tenacity would be extremely hard to replace, best pure pass rusher in the league IMO, he's worth retaining for as long as he can contribute.  It's past time they brought in a protege that can pick up the slack when he's not on the field.  If he retired tomorrow I would go hard after AC Leonard, warts and all.

Blueforlife

Great news and now sign Jeffcoat

dd

Quote from: GOLDMEMBER on December 05, 2023, 07:37:50 PM
I am on the fence with Jeffcoat but as stated he is just not healthy consistent enough so I guess move on from.

Move on from Bighill, Miller, and Rose for sure.
I thought for sure with Jeffcoats injury history we would have went after the Lemonater, and with Biggy aging/getting hurt more often, Sankey, but those ships have sailed....man if only we pulled the trigger on those deals!!!

TecnoGenius

Quote from: GOLDMEMBER on December 05, 2023, 02:37:39 PM
Yes great to see Willie return!

Chances Brown resigns hear is a pipe dream to me.

If the whisper was Zach would be helped to retire in 2025 then maybe they could have kept Brown with some future promises.  But with Zach signed thru 2025, it'll be a hard ask to tell Dru to wait and get underpaid here until 2026.  The only hope is other teams don't think he's the real deal for a full season as #1 (it would be a gamble by a GM).  He won't take a lateral move: why would he?  No, it'll have to be a promotion.

If Masoli wants to continue, and word is he does, then a GM could sign Dru as #1 for a half season until Masoli is back, and then Dru becomes a high-paid #2, ready to step in if Masoli sucks or blows out another <insert tendon here>.
Never go full Rider!

TecnoGenius

Quote from: Blue In BC on December 05, 2023, 04:23:02 PM
Betts is from Montreal so that could factor into the equation. Given the same money he may choose living out east.

Is Betts fluent in French?  MTL has admitted outright they give priority to Francophone players, especially local QC guys.  If he's FA, why not make him some big offer?  MTL has monga SMS space with all their star rookies still on ELCs into 2024.
Never go full Rider!

TecnoGenius

Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on December 05, 2023, 06:30:35 PM
Willie comes from different circumstance, poor from a big family, he's hustled all his life and was probably first in line at Walters door with contract and pen in hand. One more year!

It helps when you don't have an agent to pay!  You'd think more players would do that... Willie can take a 10-20% pay cut over an agent-handled player and make the same amount of money!!  Probably makes KW happier too.

Willie's philosophy is one of my favorites: "no handouts".  Good for you, Willie.  Welcome back for another year of great things!
Never go full Rider!

TecnoGenius

Quote from: Sir Blue and Gold on December 05, 2023, 07:05:40 PM
I'd pass on Jeffcoat, Bighill, Rose and Miller for sure.

Jeffcoat is still important because we have no one in the hopper and who in FA is more of an impact when on the field than JJ at roughly he same price?  JJ's only problem is the tub time... so why not structure the contract more in terms of pay-for-play?

Biggie isn't going anywhere.  He's still under contract, and likely will take further tiny cuts if asked.  The team felt he was critical enough to dress for the GC even though it was clear he wasn't anywhere close to 100%.  Never forget the brain/director aspect: don't just look at his speed or one physical facet.

Miller: who knows.  But if MOS is loyal to any one player the most, it's Miller.

Rose, unfortunately, likely goes and will be picked up by OTT.  But if we have some early DB injuries we may wish we kept him.
Never go full Rider!

TecnoGenius

Quote from: Pigskin on December 05, 2023, 07:15:56 PM
Jefferson and Jeffcoat are both 32, a few years left in there careers. Lemon is 35 and still playing at a high level. My only problems with Jeffcoat is he has only played in 78 games in 6 years. Average 13 games a year. The man is a force when healthy. But, at 13 games a year what is he worth?

Ya, but since he usually stints on the 6GIR (I think?), it really doesn't cost us much SMS for his tub time.  The main problem is we seem to sign him dreaming that he'll play 18 games + postseason, when it never happens.  And thus we don't hire a really good replacement or rotation guy... and then wonder why our DL is ineffective when JJ is out.

So the answer, if you hire JJ again, is you must hire a very good rotation DE too.  I would say they'd have to be at Kongbo level.  Probably even better.  But not at Betts level.  It has to be $120-$150, not $100 or $200.  Yes, that would mean we have to be spending more at the DL position.  But we tend to really under-man that position relative to other teams already, so it's easy to justify becoming more "normal".

I think many here would agree if we re-sign JJ and stick with a sub-$100k DE backup then KW is failing at fixing this puzzle piece...
Never go full Rider!

Jesse

Quote from: TecnoGenius on December 06, 2023, 06:19:25 AM
He won't take a lateral move: why would he?  No, it'll have to be a promotion.

You take a lateral move to be behind someone like Masoli or BLM or basically any other QB not named Zach or Chad who is constantly benched due to injury or play.

Even if he's a back-up, there's a lot more opportunity out there than there is here.
My wife is amazing!

BlueGold8597

Bighill is a coach on the field and his absence was felt in the 4th quarter on Montreal's drives. He's worth having back even if he's not fully the player he used to be.

Quote from: TecnoGenius on December 06, 2023, 06:28:39 AM
Jeffcoat is still important because we have no one in the hopper and who in FA is more of an impact when on the field than JJ at roughly he same price?  JJ's only problem is the tub time... so why not structure the contract more in terms of pay-for-play?

Biggie isn't going anywhere.  He's still under contract, and likely will take further tiny cuts if asked.  The team felt he was critical enough to dress for the GC even though it was clear he wasn't anywhere close to 100%.  Never forget the brain/director aspect: don't just look at his speed or one physical facet.

Miller: who knows.  But if MOS is loyal to any one player the most, it's Miller.

Rose, unfortunately, likely goes and will be picked up by OTT.  But if we have some early DB injuries we may wish we kept him.

Sir Blue and Gold

Quote from: BlueGold8597 on December 06, 2023, 03:31:38 PM
Bighill is a coach on the field and his absence was felt in the 4th quarter on Montreal's drives. He's worth having back even if he's not fully the player he used to be.


The truth is it depends how much of a drop off it is. First and foremost he needs to be able to make all the plays a MLB does. We struggled with mobile QBs. Your experience can only make up for so much lack of speed. We don't need a coach on the field. Richie Hall is a great coordinator. Our defense has a lot of experience even without him. We do need an athletic MLB that can still play sideline to sideline, blitz and drop cover running backs sometimes. Not sure Bighill can do it anymore, to be honest.

theaardvark

Bighill has a very modest cost against the $SMS.  His presence is felt and he is a leader.  He will have a place as long as he can play, and I feel he's the kind of guy who know when it is time to step aside. 
Unabashed positron.  Blue koolaid in my fridge.  I wear my blue sunglasses at night.  Homer, d'oh.

dd

Quote from: Sir Blue and Gold on December 06, 2023, 03:44:35 PM
The truth is it depends how much of a drop off it is. First and foremost he needs to be able to make all the plays a MLB does. We struggled with mobile QBs. Your experience can only make up for so much lack of speed. We don't need a coach on the field. Richie Hall is a great coordinator. Our defense has a lot of experience even without him. We do need an athletic MLB that can still play sideline to sideline, blitz and drop cover running backs sometimes. Not sure Bighill can do it anymore, to be honest.
You're right, he's lost a step for sure and it cost us vs the run/scramble for sure, and he'll likely lose another step this season. Given his age, I m surprised we didn't go after Sankey and have a succession plan at MLB, it would have been the difference this year for sure. Interested to see how this plays out, does he get hurt and call it a career or struggle to keep up on the field....

Lincoln Locomotive

Quote from: dd on December 06, 2023, 10:42:18 PM
You're right, he's lost a step for sure and it cost us vs the run/scramble for sure, and he'll likely lose another step this season. Given his age, I m surprised we didn't go after Sankey and have a succession plan at MLB, it would have been the difference this year for sure. Interested to see how this plays out, does he get hurt and call it a career or struggle to keep up on the field....
Both Sankey and Lemon made a difference when signed by Montreal.....I read somewhere that WJ had tried to talk Lemon into signing with us.    Looks like his decision to sign with Montreal worked out in his favour.
My feeling before losing to Montreal in this year's Grey Cuo was that this team had peaked in terms of being a perennial GC threat and had we won it this year, we would likely see some players Ie Bighill, Bryant, Thomas ride off into the sunset.    It's always a good time to quit when you're on top and have had success late in your career.  However, since we lost I'm pretty sure MOS would want those three players back in 24' and maybe throw Jeffcoat in the mix as well. 

At 14-4 were a game off the pace we had the season before where we were 15-3 and still lost in the final game.
Unless we pick up some younger blood in free agency, I see us possibly declining albeit still in the playoff picture in 24'.    That's just my gut feeling at the moment and could change after all the dust settles.

Bomber fan for life

TecnoGenius

A funny aside: I was watching Airplane with the wife the other night (one of our faves of all-time) and the bit with Joey bugging Kareem about "not trying until the playoffs" made me laugh so hard because that's what I often say about Willie J.  I pictured Willie grabbing my shirt and berating me over how he busts his butt up and down the field all season, just like Kareem did to Joey.

It's so easy for us couch fans to talk smack.  ;D  But hey, Willie, if you're listening, I always qualify the "takes games off" thing with "I don't care!" "he more than makes up for it in the post-season".  I love Willie's body-preserving methods... contrast with JJ.  Has Willie even missed a single game due to injury since signing with us??  The guy is a cat: always lands in a way he doesn't get harmed, and has 9 lives.  Go Willie!  (And Kareem!)
Never go full Rider!

Pigskin

I am glad WJ5 has signed. Mr. Walter's has a lot of work to do.

Jeffcoat will be 33, $185K last season.

Bryant will be 38, $190 last season.

Bighill will be 35, and is coming off of a torn calf muscle, $165K.

Hardrick will be 34, $150K last season.

Schoen was only making $70K last season.

Brady was around $100K.
Don't go through life looking in the rearview mirror.

Blue In BC

Quote from: Pigskin on December 08, 2023, 03:39:08 PM
I am glad WJ5 has signed. Mr. Walter's has a lot of work to do.

Jeffcoat will be 33, $185K last season.

Bryant will be 38, $190 last season.

Bighill will be 35, and is coming off of a torn calf muscle, $165K.

Hardrick will be 34, $150K last season.

Schoen was only making $70K last season.

Brady was around $100K.

We had some big contracts and now need to re-new these players. Whether we can afford to keep everyone IDK. Schoen is going to be looking for $250K ( IMO ) and maybe more. If he signs before some of some other big names, we may some tough decisions to make.

If what we hear about Oliveria looking to the NFL is true that will be out of our control.

In any case I'd expect a few more signings before the end of they year. Who signs 1st is always interesting but too early to make any conclusions about who we don't expect back.
2019 Grey Cup Champions

Sir Blue and Gold

Quote from: Blue In BC on December 08, 2023, 05:02:43 PM
We had some big contracts and now need to re-new these players. Whether we can afford to keep everyone IDK. Schoen is going to be looking for $250K ( IMO ) and maybe more. If he signs before some of some other big names, we may some tough decisions to make.

If what we hear about Oliveria looking to the NFL is true that will be out of our control.

In any case I'd expect a few more signings before the end of they year. Who signs 1st is always interesting but too early to make any conclusions about who we don't expect back.

Schoen will be $300,000+

Jesse

Quote from: Sir Blue and Gold on December 08, 2023, 06:06:07 PM
Schoen will be $300,000+

In FA, absolutely.

If Walters convinces him to sign a deal with us, he'd likely have to agree to take a small hair cut.
My wife is amazing!

Blue In BC

#37
Quote from: Sir Blue and Gold on December 08, 2023, 06:06:07 PM
Schoen will be $300,000+

I don't know if teams can continue to afford to pay receivers in that range. It's not that he's not worth that in comparison to other receivers. It's just that the CFL is in a cycle of paying too much of the SMS to too small a number of players.

In the same way I think Lawler and Collaros are in the same boat on the team. I suppose we could include Oliveria in this group as well.

It's a tough dynamic for the CFL with an SMS that is limiting.  It creates roster turnover IMO.
2019 Grey Cup Champions

bwiser

I think that Olivera will be paid around 170,000 and Shoen will be around 200,000 if they stay in Winnipeg. If they sign for this amount a veteran who makes a lot will have to be gone whether out right release,or allowing them to go to free agency or retirement. Bryant seems the most likely and probably Jeffcoat would be another who could be let go. Jeffcoat would seem to be the most likely as his position would be easier to replace with a cheaper replacement.

Pete

We havent been able to find a de  all of last year, unless we sign a free agent who wont be cheap. A talent like Jeffcoat isn't easy to replace. Halls defense is predicated on pressure.
In regards to Shoen no way does he get more than 225k. Lawler and Lewis are special in terms of their ability to make catches. How many highlight reel catches did Schoen make?
His success is how he fits into our scheme and Collaros . If another team signs him for big dollars he may find it difficult to replicate his last 2 seasons




Pigskin

#40
We didn't see much of Haba, but when he did played well. The Kid is 24 and has a good motor and works hard a practice. He dressed for 8 games, but in 4 starts he had 12 DTs, 4 Sacks, 1FF.
Don't go through life looking in the rearview mirror.

theaardvark

With Lawler already at close to $300k, how many other receivers can we pay that much?

This is going to be a painful off season.  There are going to be a lot of players we cannot afford.  It will require a judicious use of offers and watching out for who is willing to stay for less (like Bailey or Bighill) and who is worth matching offers on.  And who we have in the "next man up" category. 

Walters has been a wonder the last 5 years, but this year, he's going to need to be a magician.

We will sign some players early, and we will sign some players after everyone else has spent thier budget.

And we will have a great recruitment year.

Unabashed positron.  Blue koolaid in my fridge.  I wear my blue sunglasses at night.  Homer, d'oh.

dd

Lawler s contract was $250k, and I think Schoen is worth all of that, $300 is crazy, only Lewis in Edmonton got that and that was a crime, he's decent, but Rhymes , Austin Mack, Tim White and Schoen are all just as good if not better. Jones needs a kick in the head for signing him for that, but that's his problem.

I think we'll sign Schoen in the $250 range and if we can't afford both him and Lawler, bye bye Kenny.

Jesse

Quote from: theaardvark on December 08, 2023, 11:02:33 PM
With Lawler already at close to $300k, how many other receivers can we pay that much?

This is going to be a painful off season.  There are going to be a lot of players we cannot afford.  It will require a judicious use of offers and watching out for who is willing to stay for less (like Bailey or Bighill) and who is worth matching offers on.  And who we have in the "next man up" category. 

Walters has been a wonder the last 5 years, but this year, he's going to need to be a magician.

We will sign some players early, and we will sign some players after everyone else has spent thier budget.

And we will have a great recruitment year.



Meh, people have said the same thing every year since 2019. Some players have walked for better deals on the open market, but we a) haven't had trouble replacing them and b) have had a couple of them come back after a year.
My wife is amazing!

TecnoGenius

Quote from: Sir Blue and Gold on December 08, 2023, 06:06:07 PM
Schoen will be $300,000+

He's not worth $300k.

Schoen, to my eyes and memory without looking at any stats, had a bit of a sophomore slump.  Teams figured out his/Zach's 2022 scramble magic and made sure he wasn't open in that same way this season.

Schoen is not the best route runner.  He's not that fast.  He doesn't make the circus catches like Kenny/Lewis/Mack.  He was mostly invisible in the GC.  In fact, both GCs!

What Schoen does do well is: know the QB and what he wants, knows the scramble drill and how to get open, can take punishment and hold on and get back up, is very smart, what he's not "best" at (above) he is decent/good at.

Quote from: Pete on December 08, 2023, 10:24:58 PM
In regards to Shoen no way does he get more than 225k. Lawler and Lewis are special in terms of their ability to make catches. How many highlight reel catches did Schoen make?
His success is how he fits into our scheme and Collaros . If another team signs him for big dollars he may find it difficult to replicate his last 2 seasons

Bingo.  Everything you said is truth.  A team would have to be crazy to offer him >$225k.  He may, MAY, get $200k offers, and we'd probably offer him $160k tops.  We might offer more, except we totally can't afford it with Kenny.  Why not offer Schoen a lower $150 on a 3-year with auto-bumps of $25k/year + performance?  (But with no vet guarantee so we can cut if underperforming.)

If you asked me at this moment, do you take Kenny at $280k or Schoen at $160k, I'd be hard-pressed to answer, but would likely take Schoen.  If you say Kenny $250 and Schoen $200 then I'm taking Kenny all day long.  If their prices are anywhere close, I'm taking Kenny all the way.  But Kenny needs to re-prove himself by playing a full and impactful year in 2024.
Never go full Rider!

ModAdmin

Good article on Willie Jefferson's thoughts about re-signing, living in Winnipeg, his legacy and Winnipeg fan support...

"We've built something amazing here in Winnipeg" - Ed Tait

...."When I first came into the CFL in 2014, with Edmonton - gold teeth, Southside fade - I just wanted to make a team, be on a team for a year. I just wanted to stick, make plays. I wanted to get back to the NFL. Now, I couldn't care less about the NFL. I love seeing young guys make a name for themselves, make plays, get paid in the CFL, when they haven't had the opportunity (elsewhere). But if they have the opportunity to go down south to the NFL and make a name for themselves, put the CFL on the map even more than what it is, I enjoy that."

and...

"We're trying to build something special. The culture here is great. The atmosphere here is great. The fans are great. The organization is wonderful. I'm just happy we were able to get the deal done. No dilly-dally, no hesitations. I knew what I wanted, and the team was ready to give me everything I wanted plus a little bit more. I'm happy. I'm satisfied....."

"You can't let praise or criticism get to you. It's a weakness to get caught up in either one." - John Wooden

Jesse

Quote from: TecnoGenius on December 09, 2023, 02:43:48 AM
He's not worth $300k.

Schoen, to my eyes and memory without looking at any stats, had a bit of a sophomore slump.  Teams figured out his/Zach's 2022 scramble magic and made sure he wasn't open in that same way this season.

Schoen is not the best route runner.  He's not that fast.  He doesn't make the circus catches like Kenny/Lewis/Mack.  He was mostly invisible in the GC.  In fact, both GCs!

What Schoen does do well is: know the QB and what he wants, knows the scramble drill and how to get open, can take punishment and hold on and get back up, is very smart, what he's not "best" at (above) he is decent/good at.

Bingo.  Everything you said is truth.  A team would have to be crazy to offer him >$225k.  He may, MAY, get $200k offers, and we'd probably offer him $160k tops.  We might offer more, except we totally can't afford it with Kenny.  Why not offer Schoen a lower $150 on a 3-year with auto-bumps of $25k/year + performance?  (But with no vet guarantee so we can cut if underperforming.)

If you asked me at this moment, do you take Kenny at $280k or Schoen at $160k, I'd be hard-pressed to answer, but would likely take Schoen.  If you say Kenny $250 and Schoen $200 then I'm taking Kenny all day long.  If their prices are anywhere close, I'm taking Kenny all the way.  But Kenny needs to re-prove himself by playing a full and impactful year in 2024.

Schoen has over 2600 yards and 26 TDs in the past two seasons. Pretty sure that's far and away tops in the the league.

You know which other player matched Dalton's production in his "down year"? No one.
My wife is amazing!

TecnoGenius

#47
Quote from: Jesse on December 09, 2023, 10:35:25 PM
Schoen has over 2600 yards and 26 TDs in the past two seasons. Pretty sure that's far and away tops in the the league.

You know which other player matched Dalton's production in his "down year"? No one.

But was I right about his "sophomore slump"?  You gave the 2-yr stats, now maybe break it down.

Pete is almost certainly right: how much of the success is Schoen and how much is Zach/Buck?  What would he look like taking balls from Tre Ford and some rando OC?  Maybe the same... but would you bet huge SMS money on it?

How much are you paying Schoen, and what hard choices are you making if you can only budget $400k on the 2 receivers (Kenny/Schoen)... And what about the lack of circus?  I've never once seen Schoen dive for a catch.  There's no Dressler or Flyin' Hawaiian in Schoen.  How many gumby Kenny catches?  Ya, none.  Ladder-climbing astounders?  Nada.  In the GC, did he make the tough game-winning catches like Mack made?

Schoen is amazing and a phenom and no one is saying otherwise.  He's an amazing talent that we all want to keep here and cheer on for many years.  He has all the great qualities I listed in my last post.  But is he worthy of being a top-5 $$ CFL receiver??  CFL history says no.  The guys that get top dollar can make the circus catch (Lewis/Kenny) or beat everyone on routes (Milt).  That's not Schoen.  At least not yet...
Never go full Rider!

dd

DS is the scramble drill king by far and above. He's a possession receiver, he catches what is thrown to him in traffic, takes the hits and keeps on going....a modern day Rocky Dipietro. He won't outrun anyone, but he's decently thick and rugged enough to take the pounding in the middle, mind you, he was injured when it mattered most this season...

Jesse

Quote from: TecnoGenius on December 10, 2023, 01:28:57 AM
But was I right about his "sophomore slump"?  You gave the 2-yr stats, now maybe break it down.

Pete is almost certainly right: how much of the success is Schoen and how much is Zach/Buck?  What would he look like taking balls from Tre Ford and some rando OC?  Maybe the same... but would you bet huge SMS money on it?

How much are you paying Schoen, and what hard choices are you making if you can only budget $400k on the 2 receivers (Kenny/Schoen)... And what about the lack of circus?  I've never once seen Schoen dive for a catch.  There's no Dressler or Flyin' Hawaiian in Schoen.  How many gumby Kenny catches?  Ya, none.  Ladder-climbing astounders?  Nada.  In the GC, did he make the tough game-winning catches like Mack made?

Schoen is amazing and a phenom and no one is saying otherwise.  He's an amazing talent that we all want to keep here and cheer on for many years.  He has all the great qualities I listed in my last post.  But is he worthy of being a top-5 $$ CFL receiver??  CFL history says no.  The guys that get top dollar can make the circus catch (Lewis/Kenny) or beat everyone on routes (Milt).  That's not Schoen.  At least not yet...

You're creating this narrative in your head and trying to force it into reality again. Tell me how CFL history does not pay a guy who is the most productive receiver in the league. Point to any other guy that averaged over 1300 yards and 13 TDs and was top called/paid like a top 5 player at his position.

I wouldn't want to make the decision between the two receivers. I personally trust Schoen a lot more. For all Kenny's talents, he's never put it together for a full season.
My wife is amazing!

theaardvark

Schoen is scramble king, Lawler is 50/50 ball guy.  Each brings a particular set of skills.  Collaros needs every tool in the box...
Unabashed positron.  Blue koolaid in my fridge.  I wear my blue sunglasses at night.  Homer, d'oh.

dd

#51
Lawler is a 50/50 ball guy who lost the most important 50/50 ball this season in the grey cup, we ve got to sign schoen as he?s our production guy/moves the sticks. Him being hurt in the grey cup gave us a glimpse of what our receiving corps looks like without him and it ain?t a good look

theaardvark

Quote from: dd on December 10, 2023, 05:52:35 PM
Lawler is a 50/50 ball guy who lost the most important 50/50 ball this season in the grey cup, we ve got to sign schoen as he?s our production guy/moves the sticks. Him being hurt in the grey cup gave us a glimpse of what our receiving corps looks like without him and it ain?t a good look

Weird thing, a good 50/50 guy is going to miss 4 out of 10 50/50 balls.... it sucks that one of those 4 was at that important time.
Unabashed positron.  Blue koolaid in my fridge.  I wear my blue sunglasses at night.  Homer, d'oh.

Pete

Quote from: Jesse on December 10, 2023, 02:38:17 PM
You're creating this narrative in your head and trying to force it into reality again. Tell me how CFL history does not pay a guy who is the most productive receiver in the league. Point to any other guy that averaged over 1300 yards and 13 TDs and was top called/paid like a top 5 player at his position.

I wouldn't want to make the decision between the two receivers. I personally trust Schoen a lot more. For all Kenny's talents, he's never put it together for a full season.
Tim white, Steve Dunbar, Begeleton, Rhymes are all in that 180-220 range last year coming off decent seasons, which is where i see Shoen ending up.The two outliers were Lawler and Lewis.

TecnoGenius

Quote from: Jesse on December 10, 2023, 02:38:17 PM
You're creating this narrative in your head and trying to force it into reality again. Tell me how CFL history does not pay a guy who is the most productive receiver in the league. Point to any other guy that averaged over 1300 yards and 13 TDs and was top called/paid like a top 5 player at his position.

I wouldn't want to make the decision between the two receivers. I personally trust Schoen a lot more. For all Kenny's talents, he's never put it together for a full season.

Well, it won't take long to find out if the narrative is right... We'll just wait to see what Schoen gets paid (not whisper offers, but *paid*, as in takes the job).  If it's over $250k then I'll eat crow.  If it's over $200k, I'll have egg on my face.  Under $200k then I'm more right than wrong.  If we get him for $160-ish, then that's bang on the money of what I'd expect we can afford.

Personally I'm still not sold on Schoen for big money vs Kenny for big money.  I think Kenny has more heart invested with the WFC.  The interviews with Schoen & his parents hint that the real goal is NFL, and that usually means a player will hop to whatever CFL team can give him the best shot of furthering that goal.

Quote from: Pete on December 10, 2023, 09:16:00 PM
Tim white, Steve Dunbar, Begeleton, Rhymes are all in that 180-220 range last year coming off decent seasons, which is where i see Shoen ending up.The two outliers were Lawler and Lewis.

And that brings up a great point... yes, the guys you list are kind of the class that Schoen is in... however, all of those guys have been in the league, and been great, for many many years.  I guess White is the "newest" of the bunch and he's been in the league for 1-2 more than Schoen?  Even though most of those guys showed great promise in year 1 & 2, they didn't command big $$ until later.  Most receivers, even great ones, don't get top-5-CFL-$ on their first FA contract.  Can anyone name one that did?

Maybe KW (and other GMs) will spell that out to him... "We just can't pay a 3rd year guy the same $ as Kenny or Lewis"; "bide your time, you'll be top-5-$ in a couple more years."

Pete is right: Schoen is part of that ~$200k range of receiver at best, and I think he gets paid even less because he hasn't been here as long and isn't fully proven.  If someone said Begelton@180 or Schoen@250, I'm taking Begelton in a heartbeat.  (He'd be amazing here with Zach, but he's a CGY-for-lifer.)

Lastly, Mack will present the exact same problem in the subsequent FA because he's clearly talented, but will also lack seniority and a long-term proven record.  But at least Mack can make the circus catches...
Never go full Rider!

Pete

#55
tim white when he signed ly had been in the league 2 years so a good comp for Schoen.

TecnoGenius

Quote from: Pete on December 11, 2023, 03:45:15 AM
tim white when he signed ly had been in the league 2 years so a good comp for Schoen.

Ya, that's what I thought.  (Hey, the cfl player stats are finally back up!  Haha, they finally get them going now that most fans don't really need them as much because the season is over.  LOL)

So White joined in 2021, was likely still on ELC in 2022.  So does anyone know what his payday was in FA23?  That would be a great comp for Schoen.  White was kind of a phenom too, in 2022, and was a weekly WR fantasy favorite.  But White was on the clear uptrend into his big FA...

Whereas (confirming now) Schoen had a down year in his 2nd year: yards down by ~20%, TDs down bigly by nearly half; but 2 GP less.  I think what stood out most during 23 was that much lower TD production.  Teams really focused on what Schoen and Zach were doing and stopped those breakout explosions.  Schoen was getting a lot more of the "traditional" yards and TDs instead of those magical/impossible ones.  Anyhow, my main point is going into FA you want your current year to be better than your previous year (barring major IR time off).

My gut says Schoen should make more than White signed for last year, as he is marginally better (my hot-take, and stats-wise), but not by much.  If White made bank >$200k then I guess that's what Schoen will get (+$20k).  If White was retained in HAM for ~$150k, then there you go.
Never go full Rider!

Jesse

This 300k receiver thing only starter when Lawler went to Edmonton a couple years ago (after his second year in the league). We were all still reeling from Lucky getting to the 200k mark a year or two earlier and then Edmonton resets the market again. Geno then gets the same last season.

I don't think it's reasonable to use contract comparisons from before the market explosion to predict Schoen's value. Especially when none of those players have half of his TD production.

Quote from: TecnoGenius on December 11, 2023, 08:38:52 AM
I think what stood out most during 23 was that much lower TD production. 

That "much lower TD production" was in two less games and still led the league and was with Kenny on the other side taking looks. It really seems like you're trying to talk yourself into believing he'll be paid low enough for us to keep him.

I am really hoping he's the guy who gets talked into staying on a team-friendly deal, but I don't expect it. There is no reason to think he's not in the Lawler/Geno pay scale. He just flat out out-produces them.
My wife is amazing!

blue_gold_84

Imagine trying to claim Schoen had a sophomore slump. LOL :D
#forthew
лава Україні!
Don't be a Rich.

Throw Long Bannatyne

#59
Quote from: Jesse on December 11, 2023, 12:10:05 PM
This 300k receiver thing only starter when Lawler went to Edmonton a couple years ago (after his second year in the league). We were all still reeling from Lucky getting to the 200k mark a year or two earlier and then Edmonton resets the market again. Geno then gets the same last season.

I don't think it's reasonable to use contract comparisons from before the market explosion to predict Schoen's value. Especially when none of those players have half of his TD production.

That "much lower TD production" was in two less games and still led the league and was with Kenny on the other side taking looks. It really seems like you're trying to talk yourself into believing he'll be paid low enough for us to keep him.

I am really hoping he's the guy who gets talked into staying on a team-friendly deal, but I don't expect it. There is no reason to think he's not in the Lawler/Geno pay scale. He just flat out out-produces them.


So far only two GM's have gone along with the concept that top receivers are worth paying $250k+, Jones and Walters, the other GM's may not have bought in yet. Paying one receiver a large chunk of the positional budget when there are 4 other receivers on the field forces compromises.  Jones had a low QB budget as an excuse when he first signed Lawler and again with Lewis, Walters has a veteran laden team with many players at the top of their pay scale, so his sacrifices are more difficult to make.

Hard to say the range of offers Schoen will receive but I believe anything over $200k will force Walters to bow out of the bidding, and he will probably accept that as his compromise for signing Lawler, with the gratitude that he received two very good years from Schoen on a rookie salary.  Like losing Chungh, Couture, Desjarlais, Lawler, Stove and Sayles previously, it's the price Walters pays for building a team loaded with talented players.  There will be attrition because he simply can't hang onto them all.

Sir Blue and Gold

Quote from: theaardvark on December 10, 2023, 02:54:17 PM
Schoen is scramble king, Lawler is 50/50 ball guy.  Each brings a particular set of skills.  Collaros needs every tool in the box...

Different strengths but are both number one receivers and will/should be paid as such. The only question is can we afford the luxury of two number one guys. Hopefully, but there will be a cost elsewhere if we do.

blue_or_die

Loving the receiver talk in the Jefferson thread  :D
#Ride?

Pete

Quote from: TecnoGenius on December 11, 2023, 08:38:52 AM
Ya, that's what I thought.  (Hey, the cfl player stats are finally back up!  Haha, they finally get them going now that most fans don't really need them as much because the season is over.  LOL)

So White joined in 2021, was likely still on ELC in 2022.  So does anyone know what his payday was in FA23?  That would be a great comp for Schoen.  White was kind of a phenom too, in 2022, and was a weekly WR fantasy favorite.  But White was on the clear uptrend into his big FA...

Whereas (confirming now) Schoen had a down year in his 2nd year: yards down by ~20%, TDs down bigly by nearly half; but 2 GP less.  I think what stood out most during 23 was that much lower TD production.  Teams really focused on what Schoen and Zach were doing and stopped those breakout explosions.  Schoen was getting a lot more of the "traditional" yards and TDs instead of those magical/impossible ones.  Anyhow, my main point is going into FA you want your current year to be better than your previous year (barring major IR time off).

My gut says Schoen should make more than White signed for last year, as he is marginally better (my hot-take, and stats-wise), but not by much.  If White made bank >$200k then I guess that's what Schoen will get (+$20k).  If White was retained in HAM for ~$150k, then there you go.
White signed for 200-220 with bonuses

dd

Quote from: blue_or_die on December 11, 2023, 05:41:56 PM
Loving the receiver talk in the Jefferson thread  :D
Hey willow started off as a reciever so it?s related!!

TecnoGenius

Quote from: Jesse on December 11, 2023, 12:10:05 PM
That "much lower TD production" was in two less games and still led the league and was with Kenny on the other side taking looks. It really seems like you're trying to talk yourself into believing he'll be paid low enough for us to keep him.

On reflection, you are very likely correct.  I was doing too much hopium when crafting my prior argument.  :D

Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on December 11, 2023, 04:25:17 PM
Hard to say the range of offers Schoen will receive but I believe anything over $200k will force Walters to bow out of the bidding, and he will probably accept that as his compromise for signing Lawler, with the gratitude that he received two very good years from Schoen on a rookie salary.  Like losing Chungh, Couture, Desjarlais, Lawler, Stove and Sayles previously, it's the price Walters pays for building a team loaded with talented players.  There will be attrition because he simply can't hang onto them all.

This is an awesome take, and I may need to start accepting that, and seeing the bright side.  Schoen-level production on ELC was gravy bliss.  Same thing MTL is experiencing now with Mack.  By its very nature it must be a temporary thing.

We've lost the big names before, shed a tear, and moved on to keep winning.  That puts the onus back on the scouts to "do it again"!  I guess a minor consolation if we lose Schoen is that as good as he was, he wasn't the part of the grand puzzle that put us over the top to win the most important game... (yet?)
Never go full Rider!

TecnoGenius

Quote from: blue_or_die on December 11, 2023, 05:41:56 PM
Loving the receiver talk in the Jefferson thread  :D

Sorry!  My bad.  Though slightly related as Willie's big $$ signing partially impacts what $$ we'll have leftover for star WRs.

For penance here's a Willie J presser link that hasn't been mentioned yet?
https://www.bluebombers.com/2023/12/05/willie-jefferson-re-signing-media-december-5-2023/

A great interview.  I like him more every day.  I love how he's also pitching being with the WFC to his fellow (and/or future) team mates.  This matters to players who are definitely watching this!

Quote from: dd on December 11, 2023, 11:33:24 PM
Hey willow started off as a reciever so it?s related!!

Who signed Willow as a receiver (see the 1988 movie)?  Not a smart move for a GM.  ;D
Never go full Rider!

TecnoGenius

Quote from: Pete on December 11, 2023, 06:09:27 PM
White signed for 200-220 with bonuses

Thanks, that's useful info.  Comparable to pre-300k-EDM or not, it does make a starting basis on our Schoen guesses.  Sounds a bit high, but then again HAM had just shed Addison and Acklin, so was flush with WR SMS$$.
Never go full Rider!

theaardvark

Quote from: Pete on December 11, 2023, 03:45:15 AM
tim white when he signed ly had been in the league 2 years so a good comp for Schoen.

Was Tim White ROY, and the top receiver in the league?  Schoen has 8 more TD's in 2 years than White in 3... 4 more yards per catch average... and shared targets with 2 other top 12 rec's in the league, White was the main target.  So not really a good comp...
Unabashed positron.  Blue koolaid in my fridge.  I wear my blue sunglasses at night.  Homer, d'oh.

dd

Quote from: theaardvark on December 12, 2023, 10:24:26 PM
Was Tim White ROY, and the top receiver in the league?  Schoen has 8 more TD's in 2 years than White in 3... 4 more yards per catch average... and shared targets with 2 other top 12 rec's in the league, White was the main target.  So not really a good comp...
If Tim white had Zack Collaros throwing him the ball instead of the misfits in Hamilton god only knows what his stats would be. Tim white is worth every penny of $200-220k, he was Hamilton?s only bonafide offensive threat

TecnoGenius

Quote from: theaardvark on December 12, 2023, 10:24:26 PM
Was Tim White ROY, and the top receiver in the league?  Schoen has 8 more TD's in 2 years than White in 3... 4 more yards per catch average... and shared targets with 2 other top 12 rec's in the league, White was the main target.  So not really a good comp...

White's 1st season was shared with very good receiving talent in HAM.  Even his year 2 was.  Guys like Dunbar, Acklin, Addison.  They all shared targets (I know, I always had the very tough choice of Dunbar or White in fantasy each week).  It was only in 2023 when HAM shed all their good receivers that White was alone out there as the only star receiver.  And he suffered for it because they just double-teamed him to force HAM to throw to the newer/lesser guys.

White had a better year 2 than year 1, so that's probably why he was passed over for ROY.  Schoen was kind of the opposite.  However, you can't compare HAM on the clear downtrend in 2022 to WPG stuck at their peak on the plateau.  dd is right: White would have had even better stats here in WPG.

But we really can't diminish White: after his year 1 and year 2 he was a very desired WR, and looked to be one of the next top receivers.  So yes, kind of like Schoen.  White still could be if he wasn't stuck in a downtrend team.  What will Schoen look like if he bails for a downtrend or basement-dwelling team too?  As I always say: Ask Kenny how that turns out.

Lastly, didn't we have White here in a TC/PS one year??  Got a PS TD?  My buddy has that ball he threw into the stands.  Or was that another White?  There are a lot of them.
Never go full Rider!

TecnoGenius

Bottom line:
300 Kenny
225 Demski
130 Bailey
120 Woli
300 Schoen?
===
1075k$

No way we can pay our starting R's over (or anywhere near) 1 million.  Feel free to adjust my $ guesses as your better info allows, but it probably comes out to something similar.

If Schoen stays for $200k, that's still $1M and we still can't afford it.  Thus Schoen will have to be $160-ish.  And even then it'll be tight!

Maybe we can squeeze out some more if we shed Bailey to gamble on a rookie ELC.  That gives us 40 more to give Schoen to get him closer to 200.  And none of this factors in the big payday Brady is going to need/get.

Being cap-heavy on WR corps didn't win us either GC, so maybe we should change our approach?  Shift more $ to D, and be more rookie-laden on O like MTL was... Not saying this is what I want (I like Bailey), but maybe a bigger shakeup than usual is needed?  That's why KW gets the big bucks.
Never go full Rider!

Throw Long Bannatyne

Quote from: TecnoGenius on December 12, 2023, 11:28:05 PM
Bottom line:
300 Kenny
225 Demski
130 Bailey
120 Woli
300 Schoen?
===
1075k$

No way we can pay our starting R's over (or anywhere near) 1 million.  Feel free to adjust my $ guesses as your better info allows, but it probably comes out to something similar.

If Schoen stays for $200k, that's still $1M and we still can't afford it.  Thus Schoen will have to be $160-ish.  And even then it'll be tight!

Maybe we can squeeze out some more if we shed Bailey to gamble on a rookie ELC.  That gives us 40 more to give Schoen to get him closer to 200.  And none of this factors in the big payday Brady is going to need/get.

Being cap-heavy on WR corps didn't win us either GC, so maybe we should change our approach?  Shift more $ to D, and be more rookie-laden on O like MTL was... Not saying this is what I want (I like Bailey), but maybe a bigger shakeup than usual is needed?  That's why KW gets the big bucks.

I believe Demski signed for around $180k, Bailey I would guess $115k and Woli maybe 105k, still not enough money left in the pot for Schoen who's ask is going to be above $200k.

Jesse

Quote from: TecnoGenius on December 12, 2023, 11:28:05 PM
Bottom line:
300 Kenny
225 Demski
130 Bailey
120 Woli
300 Schoen?
===
1075k$

No way we can pay our starting R's over (or anywhere near) 1 million.  Feel free to adjust my $ guesses as your better info allows, but it probably comes out to something similar.

The only thing I'll say on behalf of keeping Schoen is that the salary cap isn't that simple.

Walters can re-negotiate with Kenny, can give Schoen a signing bonus that puts part of his contract on the 2023 budget line (if room), you can cut another veteran and commit to a minimum contract somewhere. You can spread out the deal with more money coming in later years (including some guaranteed money). There are options.
My wife is amazing!

Pete

Quote from: TecnoGenius on December 12, 2023, 11:28:05 PM
Bottom line:
300 Kenny
225 Demski
130 Bailey
120 Woli
300 Schoen?
===
1075k$

No way we can pay our starting R's over (or anywhere near) 1 million.  Feel free to adjust my $ guesses as your better info allows, but it probably comes out to something similar.

If Schoen stays for $200k, that's still $1M and we still can't afford it.  Thus Schoen will have to be $160-ish.  And even then it'll be tight!

Maybe we can squeeze out some more if we shed Bailey to gamble on a rookie ELC.  That gives us 40 more to give Schoen to get him closer to 200.  And none of this factors in the big payday Brady is going to need/get.

Being cap-heavy on WR corps didn't win us either GC, so maybe we should change our approach?  Shift more $ to D, and be more rookie-laden on O like MTL was... Not saying this is what I want (I like Bailey), but maybe a bigger shakeup than usual is needed?  That's why KW gets the big bucks.
I agree under the current structure but Is that right about Demski ? He made 175 k ly and due a bump this year but I thought it was more like 190k

I could see us renegotiating Lawler to look as follows;
Bottom line:
250 Kenny
195 Demsk
Bailey we replace with rookie at 85k
120 Woli
200 Schoen
=850k
other than this I dont see us retaining both Lawler and Schoen

TecnoGenius

Thanks for all the other numbers guesses.  I knew I was close-ish but probably not bang on.  In any event we are looking at roughly the same final total.  And we all seem to agree finding a way to make it work for the WR corps will be very difficult.

Getting back to Willie... Since I'm pretty sure we can't "improve" our WR corps this year, and we shouldn't need to as it's the best group in the CFL, that means the 2024 "puzzle" probably is on D.  If our D made 1-2 more stops in the 4th Q of the GC, we win that GC.  I'm not blaming any D guy specifically, as I think the plays that were made were just great O plays that couldn't be defended easily.  But I think if we make any surprising moves, it'll be D.  And it could even be "big name" guys we let go.

I could also see us considering ST coverage / blocking as a puzzle piece.  It was very good in the GC, and I'm thrilled about that, but everyone was moaning about it the rest of the season.  And since you can make moves on ST NATs without costing much, I could see some changes.  Maybe more oldster movement out and more spots for the newest guys like the "other" Hallett.  I'm pretty sure you keep Gauthier, though: every season he saves our bacon a few times.  Maybe we let Briggs walk?  Question mark Miller will have to be resolved...

I just don't see any other pieces we need to address, unless you're one of the guys who hates certain OLers.  Or we get hit with more than the usual 1-2 $FA-defectors$.
Never go full Rider!

Blueforlife

We have to keep Bailey he does much and isn't that expensive, that said the math doesn't add up LOL

Throw Long Bannatyne

#76
Quote from: Blueforlife on December 15, 2023, 05:51:42 PM
We have to keep Bailey he does much and isn't that expensive, that said the math doesn't add up LOL

Agree, won't find another receiver in the league willing to do so much dirty work for such good value.  In addition every year he seems to make a few highlight reel plays that demonstrate how dangerous he can be once he gets the ball in his hands.  No reason on earth to cast him aside.  I don't like it, but accept losing Schoen so deserving players like Bailey can get an honest bump. 


Sir Blue and Gold

Quote from: Pete on December 13, 2023, 05:17:51 PM
I agree under the current structure but Is that right about Demski ? He made 175 k ly and due a bump this year but I thought it was more like 190k

I could see us renegotiating Lawler to look as follows;
Bottom line:
250 Kenny
195 Demsk
Bailey we replace with rookie at 85k
120 Woli
200 Schoen
=850k
other than this I dont see us retaining both Lawler and Schoen

I would anticipate our receivers to be something like this:
295 Lawler
200 Demski
150 Bailey
70 Alston
130 Wolitarsky
80 O'Leary Orange


Realistically, you can't have everything. I don't think it's possible to spend ~1/5 of the salary cap on receivers (like some have suggested) while also spending top dollar on a QB. Collaros made some comments during the season that we've got to find a way to keep Schoen. Well, the only way to do that is if he wants to subsidize it by taking a fairly healthy pay cut. It's also really hard to go back to Lawler and ask him to take another pay cut after we told him to take one last season.

Blue In BC

Quote from: Sir Blue and Gold on December 18, 2023, 01:50:51 PM
I would anticipate our receivers to be something like this:
295 Lawler
200 Demski
150 Bailey
70 Alston
130 Wolitarsky
80 O'Leary Orange


Realistically, you can't have everything. I don't think it's possible to spend ~1/5 of the salary cap on receivers (like some have suggested) while also spending top dollar on a QB. Collaros made some comments during the season that we've got to find a way to keep Schoen. Well, the only way to do that is if he wants to subsidize it by taking a fairly healthy pay cut. It's also really hard to go back to Lawler and ask him to take another pay cut after we told him to take one last season.


Do you think that's where they are currently or where they will be if they sign new contracts? Bailey, Woli and BOO are all potential free agents.  Hopefully we get all of them back but getting Schoen back as well will take some creative math.
2019 Grey Cup Champions

Sir Blue and Gold

Quote from: Blue In BC on December 18, 2023, 02:53:33 PM
Do you think that's where they are currently or where they will be if they sign new contracts? Bailey, Woli and BOO are all potential free agents.  Hopefully we get all of them back but getting Schoen back as well will take some creative math.

I think that's where they might be for those three on one year deals in 2024.

Blue In BC

Quote from: Sir Blue and Gold on December 18, 2023, 02:58:41 PM
I think that's where they might be for those three on one year deals in 2024.

I think remaining with the Bombers for those 3 is a decision they will make. It's stability for them and playing as part of the Bomber offence with Collaros and Pierce as the OC gives them the opportunity to be productive. The difference of some extra money elsewhere doesn't always work out for players when they change teams.

Now whether that equates to a home team discount is hard to tell but IMO it does have an impact.
2019 Grey Cup Champions

Throw Long Bannatyne

#81
Quote from: Sir Blue and Gold on December 18, 2023, 01:50:51 PM
I would anticipate our receivers to be something like this:
295 Lawler
200 Demski
150 Bailey
70 Alston
130 Wolitarsky
80 O'Leary Orange


Realistically, you can't have everything. I don't think it's possible to spend ~1/5 of the salary cap on receivers (like some have suggested) while also spending top dollar on a QB. Collaros made some comments during the season that we've got to find a way to keep Schoen. Well, the only way to do that is if he wants to subsidize it by taking a fairly healthy pay cut. It's also really hard to go back to Lawler and ask him to take another pay cut after we told him to take one last season.


Unless BOLO can't find another option, I don't see him returning for another year, O'Shea choosing to use 3 injured receivers over him in the playoffs must have tried his patience and been pretty discouraging.  With his father being a former pro player, I'd guess he's getting plenty of advice from that front.

Jesse

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Sir Blue and Gold

#83
Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on December 18, 2023, 04:06:38 PM
Unless BOLO can't find another option, I don't see him returning for another year, O'Shea choosing to use 3 injured receivers over him in the playoffs must have tried his patience and be pretty discouraging.  With his father being a former pro player, I'd guess he's getting plenty of advice from that front.

What? O'Leary Orange started the West Final and had two catches on two targets. To put that in perspective Wolitarksy had one target and Bailey had two. In the Grey Cup he played behind Schoen or he probably would have started again. Don't think he or anyone else would have had very hard feelings about letting Schoen start over him. Agree that he hasn't been called on much but starting the West Final seems fairly respectful to me.

Throw Long Bannatyne

Quote from: Sir Blue and Gold on December 18, 2023, 04:51:27 PM
What? O'Leary Orange started the West Final and had two catches on two targets. To put that in perspective Wolitarksy had one target and Bailey had two. In the Grey Cup he played behind Schoen or he probably would have started again. Don't think he or anyone else would have had very hard feelings about letting Schoen start over him. Agree that he hasn't been called on much but starting the West Final seems fairly respectful to me.

He has been here long enough that he could have subbed for Demski, Schoen or Bailey at anytime, the fact he got no reps. in the GC when 2 of the 3 were performing well below their capabilities and underachieved (as could be expected) in a losing effort, burns.  You think he should be happy biding his time in obscurity?  Even if Schoen leaves, it's unlikely he will get an opportunity to start next year.

blue_gold_84

Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on December 18, 2023, 05:30:43 PM
He has been here long enough that he could have subbed for Demski, Schoen or Bailey at anytime, the fact he got no reps. in the GC when 2 of the 3 were performing well below their capabilities and underachieved (as could be expected) in a losing effort, burns.  You think he should be happy biding his time in obscurity?  Even if Schoen leaves, it's unlikely he will get an opportunity to start next year.

What a baffling narrative.

In 30 regular season games with this team, he's done next to nothing to demonstrate he should be ahead of those three receivers you listed, much less in a playoff game. What could he have done any differently in the GC?

He's a depth asset right now for a reason.
#forthew
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Throw Long Bannatyne

Quote from: blue_gold_84 on December 18, 2023, 07:03:40 PM
What a baffling narrative.

In 30 regular season games with this team, he's done next to nothing to demonstrate he should be ahead of those three receivers you listed, much less in a playoff game. What could he have done any differently in the GC?

He's a depth asset right now for a reason.

Comes back to the decision to dress Bailey with a torn hamstring muscle and Schoen who hadn't stepped foot on the practice field in 6 weeks and was surprised to be playing.  For most of the 30 games he has dressed BOLO has not taken any reps. so that stat. is misleading, in total he's participated in 13 games over two seasons mostly on a limited basis. 

What's the reason to have depth if you don't intend to use it?  According to O'Shea "they're all starters".

blue_gold_84

#forthew
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dd

I always thought O Leary Orange played well when he played. Don't look at the bottom end of our roster when looking at why we lost the Grey Cup, look at the top end. While Fajardo and Mack were making big plays to win the game, our high priced combo of Collaros and Lawler were throwing interceptions. Simple as that, their big time players made plays to win it, ours didn't. Makes for a long off season.