Biggie's GC Role

Started by TecnoGenius, November 14, 2023, 04:18:08 AM

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TecnoGenius

Assuming Biggie is out for the GC (not assured, but possible/likely), what role will/can Biggie have in the GC?  Most often you see (non-QB) injured guys in civvies just milling around trying to stay out of the way.  At most they act like cheerleaders on the lines away from the bench.

But Biggie is such an important piece that I'm hoping we see him on the bench on the tablet helping to work the D like he always does.  Every time a front-7 guy comes off the field he should be checking in with them.  Whoever will take his "QB of the D" role on the actual field between the whistles will of course have to be given control, but I don't see how you can't benefit from Biggie's experience.

Secondary question: who will be the "QB of the D" for the GC (regardless of who lines up at MIKE)?  Gauthier?  Clements?  Surely it can't be Cole (too green).  Possibly Maruo?  That would be a first for a GLOB.  MOS is always touting his high IQ, so how about Kramdi?
Never go full Rider!

Tiger

Football is easy if you're crazy as hell
Bo Jackson

We are inclined to think that if we watch a football game or a baseball game, we have taken part in it
John Fitzgerald Kennedy

BC Sucks
Tiger

TecnoGenius

Quote from: Tiger on November 14, 2023, 04:23:03 AM
Kyries

I thought about that... but I've never seen any indication Wilson is known for his leadership and football IQ?  But I'm very open to being wrong if anyone has any statements from our guys to the contrary.

The only ones (LBers) I've ever heard MOS single out for "football IQ" praise are: Gauthier, Briggs, Kramdi.  Doesn't mean the other guys don't qualify: it could be he just wasn't asked about them.  But those are the ones I've heard named.

Hmm, maybe one can glean the answer by studying the coverage of the 2nd H of the WDF... it's usually easy to spot who's directing things.
Never go full Rider!

BLUEBOMBER

Biggie can stand on the sidelines and yell out what he sees.. :_)

TecnoGenius

Quote from: BLUEBOMBER on November 16, 2023, 07:27:18 PM
Biggie can stand on the sidelines and yell out what he sees.. :_)

He should grab onto the spidercam and hang on for the ride and yell plays from above!

I suspect MTL will try to take advantage of no-Biggie by throwing to the middle flat a lot and using Standback up the gut more than their normal plan would have called for.  If I'm MTL I'm attacking the MIKE+SAM area and leaving the WILL alone.

If MTL is passing short/mid-range a lot I may do more sets with smaller/faster LBers like Cole instead of Clements, and giving MTL wacky zone looks with lots of drop-backers.  Knockdowns might be the order of the day.
Never go full Rider!

J5V

Quote from: TecnoGenius on November 16, 2023, 08:37:29 PM
I suspect MTL will try to take advantage of no-Biggie by throwing to the middle flat a lot and using Standback up the gut more than their normal plan would have called for.  If I'm MTL I'm attacking the MIKE+SAM area and leaving the WILL alone.

In Richie we trust. Biggie would be the first one to tell you that one man does not make the team. The Bomber D will be the Bomber D with or without Biggie. I'm not the least bit concerned.
Go Bombers!

Blueforlife

Quote from: J5V on November 16, 2023, 09:48:04 PM
In Richie we trust. Biggie would be the first one to tell you that one man does not make the team. The Bomber D will be the Bomber D with or without Biggie. I'm not the least bit concerned.
Love the Hall props.

He is a legend and to those that supported him, management and our defense pre-dynasty my hat goes off to you.  Will go down as a all time great DC.  We will feel Biggie's loss but less so because of three things:
1.  Hall is boss
2.  We rotate well
3.  We have considerable LB depth
Sometimes you need a fresh start

GOLDMEMBER

Quote from: Blueforlife on November 17, 2023, 04:48:01 AM
Love the Hall props.

He is a legend and to those that supported him, management and our defense pre-dynasty my hat goes off to you.  Will go down as a all time great DC.  We will feel Biggie's loss but less so because of three things:
1.  Hall is boss
2.  We rotate well
3.  We have considerable LB depth
I tend to agree but I think we avoid Gauthier out there as much as possible. He just does not have the talent to be a consistent MLB.
I LOSHT MY MEMBER IN AN UNFORTUNATE SHMELTING ACCSHIDENT!

Sec223

The bigger question is. Does he come back next year ?

GOLDMEMBER

Quote from: Sec223 on November 17, 2023, 11:24:27 AM
The bigger question is. Does he come back next year ?
I would think not. We will need the cap space to resign Schoen.
I LOSHT MY MEMBER IN AN UNFORTUNATE SHMELTING ACCSHIDENT!

northof30

Quote from: GOLDMEMBER on November 17, 2023, 12:45:01 PM
I would think not. We will need the cap space to resign Schoen.
Is Schoen a definite out for Sunday?

blue_gold_84

#forthew
лава Україні!
Don't be a Rich.

Pigskin

Quote from: blue_gold_84 on November 17, 2023, 04:43:59 PM
Unconfirmed as of today.

Apparently both did not practice or workout again today. Not looking good.
Don't go through life looking in the rearview mirror.

Horseman

It's the GC, tape up the ankle, get a shot and get out there and play, you have all off season to heal.

Blueforlife

#14
Can't risk your career on one game.  Our boys will heal up right and the supporting cast is good enough to win.

Gauthier will be fine on rotation like he always his.  Hall and his merry men will do their best to get us another cup.  #1d+ all day baby!

I expect a good battle but we will come out on top.  We are firing on all cylinders.
Sometimes you need a fresh start

bwiser

Bighill and Schoen are listed as game time decisions. I don't know if this is just gamesmanship or do they really have a chance to play on Sunday. I have a feeling we may see one or possibly both in the lineup. We shall see tomorrow.

J5V

Quote from: bwiser on November 18, 2023, 02:49:37 PM
Bighill and Schoen are listed as game time decisions. I don't know if this is just gamesmanship or do they really have a chance to play on Sunday. I have a feeling we may see one or possibly both in the lineup. We shall see tomorrow.
The emotional boost that would give our team would be phenominal!
Go Bombers!

Blue In BC

Quote from: bwiser on November 18, 2023, 02:49:37 PM
Bighill and Schoen are listed as game time decisions. I don't know if this is just gamesmanship or do they really have a chance to play on Sunday. I have a feeling we may see one or possibly both in the lineup. We shall see tomorrow.

I don't see any point in gamesmanship a day before the game. Each team prepares to play their opponent regardless of who is on the active or not.

I could see both being active tomorrow but possibly with reduced roles or effectiveness? If Schoen is active that would take McCrae off the game roster. That's also unfortunate but roster size and ratio come into play.

Schoen is a key ingredient to our offence and responsible for about 25% of our receiving TD's and 2nd down conversions.
2019 Grey Cup Champions

Lincoln Locomotive

#18
Quote from: J5V on November 18, 2023, 02:54:21 PM
The emotional boost that would give our team would be phenominal!
you know they want to play and that goes without saying....and it would definitely give the team a huge lift.   Fingers crossed as we have more or less been resigned to them not playing in this game.    Had they practiced today I would feel more confident that they would suit up for the big dance!    OTOH, Nic Demski didn't practice at all before the WF and he looked pretty good in that game.....made some nice plays for first downs.
The suspense though is killing me!
Bomber fan for life

Jesse

Quote from: bwiser on November 18, 2023, 02:49:37 PM
Bighill and Schoen are listed as game time decisions. I don't know if this is just gamesmanship or do they really have a chance to play on Sunday. I have a feeling we may see one or possibly both in the lineup. We shall see tomorrow.

I think it's just MOS giving them every opportunity to prove they can do it.

Still more likely than not they gotta sit tomorrow, probably.
My wife is amazing!

Throw Long Bannatyne

Quote from: Blue In BC on November 18, 2023, 03:11:16 PM
I don't see any point in gamesmanship a day before the game. Each team prepares to play their opponent regardless of who is on the active or not.

I could see both being active tomorrow but possibly with reduced roles or effectiveness? If Schoen is active that would take McCrae off the game roster. That's also unfortunate but roster size and ratio come into play.

Schoen is a key ingredient to our offence and responsible for about 25% of our receiving TD's and 2nd down conversions.

Schoen hasn't even dressed for practice in a couple of weeks, no way can I see him going.  Maybe Bighill's injury isn't as bad as it looked, but if he's diminished in his play I would rather they take advantage of the roster flexibility available from their absence.  If Bailey and Demski are well under 100% they need to make use of McCrae's running ability to diversify the run game.

TecnoGenius

Quote from: Blueforlife on November 18, 2023, 05:52:17 AM
Can't risk your career on one game.  Our boys will heal up right and the supporting cast is good enough to win.

You can't?  Biggie is, what, 36?  It might be his last season anyhow.  I don't think it is, but it could be.  Going out in a blaze of GC victory glory doesn't sound too bad.
Never go full Rider!

J5V

Quote from: TecnoGenius on November 18, 2023, 11:30:18 PM
You can't?  Biggie is, what, 36?  It might be his last season anyhow.  I don't think it is, but it could be.  Going out in a blaze of GC victory glory doesn't sound too bad.
I agree. If he can play, he will. At least he'll give it a go to see if the injury has healed enough to be structurally sound. There are ways of dealing with the pain, Questionable whether he'll last 60 minutes. As long as he isn't hurting the team I expect him to be out there if at all possible. As you say, it may be his last hurrah.
Go Bombers!

Doublezero

Quote from: bwiser on November 18, 2023, 02:49:37 PM
Bighill and Schoen are listed as game time decisions. I don't know if this is just gamesmanship or do they really have a chance to play on Sunday. I have a feeling we may see one or possibly both in the lineup. We shall see tomorrow.
Schoen has been out for 6 weeks, prob enough time to heal a high ankle sprain if that's what it was. Biggie looked in a great deal of discomfort coming off the field last week. They both may want to play but if they are anything less than 100% that's not doing their team-mates any favours. Demski for example was not 100% last week and you could tell. Same with Rasheed.
Just gimme the rock.

TecnoGenius

Quote from: Doublezero on November 19, 2023, 01:55:19 AM
Schoen has been out for 6 weeks, prob enough time to heal a high ankle sprain if that's what it was. Biggie looked in a great deal of discomfort coming off the field last week. They both may want to play but if they are anything less than 100% that's not doing their team-mates any favours. Demski for example was not 100% last week and you could tell. Same with Rasheed.

I don't know.  The question really is: is a 60% Schoen better than a 100% McCrae... that's a tough question.  The key for me is can they play 3.5+ Qs.  If they are our at the half it adds too much risk to the roster running out of guys.
Never go full Rider!

The Zipp

Quote from: TecnoGenius on November 19, 2023, 02:37:15 PM
I don't know.  The question really is: is a 60% Schoen better than a 100% McCrae... that's a tough question.  The key for me is can they play 3.5+ Qs.  If they are our at the half it adds too much risk to the roster running out of guys.

Yes he is cause he does things in the offense that mccrae can't do.  The routes over the middle and deep balls - 2nd down conversions are key.  Unless he had a broken ankle I think he should be able to play with perhaps some medical assistance. 

bwiser

It will likely come down to how much pain the players can handle. The adrenaline will be flowing so that could help them tolerate the discomfort.

TecnoGenius

Quote from: The Zipp on November 19, 2023, 03:31:40 PM
Yes he is cause he does things in the offense that mccrae can't do.  The routes over the middle and deep balls - 2nd down conversions are key.  Unless he had a broken ankle I think he should be able to play with perhaps some medical assistance

Haha, ya.  I love how the pundits and even us fans dance around that issue.  Especially Dunnigan, he's the funniest coming up with euphimisms.  Just jack Schoen/Biggie up with massive direct injections and pain killers LOL!  But then they need to Strevie out the whole game: no quit unless a bone is showing!  (Easy for me to say.)
Never go full Rider!

The Zipp

Quote from: TecnoGenius on November 19, 2023, 06:08:17 PM
Haha, ya.  I love how the pundits and even us fans dance around that issue.  Especially Dunnigan, he's the funniest coming up with euphimisms.  Just jack Schoen/Biggie up with massive direct injections and pain killers LOL!  But then they need to Strevie out the whole game: no quit unless a bone is showing!  (Easy for me to say.)


Yah.  Dunigan knows - he played the grey cup in Winnipeg with I think a broken collarbone....

Ducky

Bighill hurt the team today.

Schoen did not help the team.

Neither should have played. 

Lincoln Locomotive

#30
Dalton converted two second down throws.....perhaps he wasn't as big a threat as he usually can be....however he did make an impact.    It was hard to tell if AB4 was contributing from what I saw on the screen.....he was in pass coverage on one TD where he was clearly not in any position to disrupt the pass.....our D had some shining moments particularly when we stuffed them at the goal line to preserve our 10 point lead going into the 2nd half.

Gauthier had a hell of a game imho.....When Adam pulled up lame with a torn calf, I was thinking perhaps he should've sat out.....however he has been the QB of our D all season.....so tough call.    At the end of the day our D couldn't stop the Als on their last drive and that there was the old ball game.    We had them on the ropes on a 3rd and 5 and Fjardo completes a gutsy pass to preserve the drive and then drives a dagger into Bombers and fans with that last TD strike.    I don't cast any blame on either Dalton or Adam but rather I tip my hat to Cody Fjardo and the Als for wanting to win it just that much more than we did. 
I actually believe we may have beaten the Argos had they advanced as we may have been more motivated to avenge last years loss to them.....however it was the Als turn this time to make history and I'd rather have lost to them than to the Argos twice....
Bomber fan for life

Throw Long Bannatyne

Quote from: TecnoGenius on November 19, 2023, 06:08:17 PM
Haha, ya.  I love how the pundits and even us fans dance around that issue.  Especially Dunnigan, he's the funniest coming up with euphimisms.  Just jack Schoen/Biggie up with massive direct injections and pain killers LOL!  But then they need to Strevie out the whole game: no quit unless a bone is showing!  (Easy for me to say.)

"Modern medicine".

TecnoGenius

Quote from: Ducky on November 20, 2023, 03:46:32 AM
Bighill hurt the team today.

Schoen did not help the team
.

Neither should have played

I tend to agree.

You guys said DS83 made some clutch 2nd downs, but honestly I didn't even notice sitting at the stadium.  But no big plays, no mid-range plays, and no deep shot or TD.  If we had McCrae dressed instead, maybe we get some different sweep looks instead of just going to Demski?

Bighill is a bit harder to judge because it's not just him and his physical impact, but his direction of the whole D.   And we really can't know how critical he is for that.  The D as a whole was ok.  Made some big plays, screwed up a few times.  I want to say he should have stayed out, especially since he clearly re-injured the exact same part, but I can't really know.

I do know that if the decision was at all based on giving Biggie and Schoen their chance to get their name on the cup, even knowing they really weren't good to go, then that is very un-MOS-like and should not be acceptable for our team.
Never go full Rider!

TecnoGenius

Quote from: Lincoln Locomotive on November 20, 2023, 04:21:26 AM
Dalton converted two second down throws.....perhaps he wasn't as big a threat as he usually can be....however he did make an impact.    It was hard to tell if AB4 was contributing from what I saw on the screen.....he was in pass coverage on one TD where he was clearly not in any position to disrupt the pass

That play was a travesty and should never have occurred.  Was it MTL #17?  A fast spry young receiver and our only man on him is Biggie?  What on earth happened there?  It was a shambles.  I don't mind Biggie dropping back to help and run interference but in no world should our MLB be the only guy on a legit, lanky SB.  So... who screwed up?
Never go full Rider!

Jesse

And Bailey was playing with a torn hamstring, so it would have been nice to have some healthy bodies in the receiving core. Sure looked like Zach was having trouble finding open targets.
My wife is amazing!

Ricky Bobby

Anyone else think our d-line was nullified by the Al's o-line, seemed like we had almost no pressure. I love Jeffcoat, but he was a non-factor.

Horseman

Quote from: Ricky Bobby on November 21, 2023, 02:09:39 PM
Anyone else think our d-line was nullified by the Al's o-line, seemed like we had almost no pressure. I love Jeffcoat, but he was a non-factor.

Yes, our DL was handled by the Mtl O line, we did not get any consistent pressure on Cody the entire game.

TecnoGenius

Quote from: Ricky Bobby on November 21, 2023, 02:09:39 PM
Anyone else think our d-line was nullified by the Al's o-line, seemed like we had almost no pressure. I love Jeffcoat, but he was a non-factor.

I still think it was part of the plan on many downs to worry about Cody contain rather than pass-rush.  We had to be careful we didn't just rush to him an lose outside contain if he dodges the initial lunge.  He made us pay that way on that late drive.

The problem was we weren't rattling him.  We managed to rattle VAJ by just getting close, and closing the pocket.  Cody didn't give a crap.

But yes, MTL's OL did appear to play quite well.  Even McGloster, who we let go and now may be turning into a legit OT, and could have been our future Yoshi or Stan replacement.
Never go full Rider!

Lincoln Locomotive

Quote from: TecnoGenius on November 21, 2023, 01:38:39 AM
I tend to agree.

You guys said DS83 made some clutch 2nd downs, but honestly I didn't even notice sitting at the stadium.  But no big plays, no mid-range plays, and no deep shot or TD.  If we had McCrae dressed instead, maybe we get some different sweep looks instead of just going to Demski?

Bighill is a bit harder to judge because it's not just him and his physical impact, but his direction of the whole D.   And we really can't know how critical he is for that.  The D as a whole was ok.  Made some big plays, screwed up a few times.  I want to say he should have stayed out, especially since he clearly re-injured the exact same part, but I can't really know.

I do know that if the decision was at all based on giving Biggie and Schoen their chance to get their name on the cup, even knowing they really weren't good to go, then that is very un-MOS-like and should not be acceptable for our team.
This is precisely why MOS wouldn't make it as a GM.....he's a players coach and to a fault, loyal to his players because he deeply cares for all of them....especially his all star vets!   That being said, he already indicated that given the same circumstances, he would do exactly the same thing.   MOS is unlike a Wally Buono in that regard nor would he ever want to be compared with any other coach.    MOS for all his faults and tendencies is still one of the greatest coaches in Bomber history and he does things his way!
Bomber fan for life

Big Daddy

Quote from: Lincoln Locomotive on November 22, 2023, 12:46:15 AM
This is precisely why MOS wouldn't make it as a GM.....he's a players coach and to a fault, loyal to his players because he deeply cares for all of them....especially his all star vets!   That being said, he already indicated that given the same circumstances, he would do exactly the same thing.   MOS is unlike a Wally Buono in that regard nor would he ever want to be compared with any other coach.    MOS for all his faults and tendencies is still one of the greatest coaches in Bomber history and he does things his way!

Couldn't put it better myself.  In hindsight I don't think it was a good decision to play Biggie and Schoen, and it bothers me a bit that he says he would do the exact same thing.

However, can't argue with the results.  This team will do anything for him, 4 straight GC appearances with 2 wins.

Who would be questioning if we would want that record going forward back in 2018?  I remember the lean years very well as a STH, and we are still in some amazing times right now as Bomber fans.

So yeah, I may not agree with everything O'Shea does, but I'll take the whole package and live with the minor discrepancies. 

tlf

Quote from: Ducky on November 20, 2023, 03:46:32 AM
Bighill hurt the team today.

Schoen did not help the team.

Neither should have played. 

I agree with this partly.  We now know they don't get their name on the cup without playing. I wouldn't have had them play so much.

They were keys to us getting as far as we have the past few years, so they deserve their name on it had we won.  I can't imagine a coach wanting to deny them that honor.

Throw Long Bannatyne

#41
Doesn't sound like Bighill is contemplating retirement, especially with one year left to go on his current contract.

"I haven't played my last snap of football by any means."

He also explained the play he ended up covering the receiver was a bust and it wasn't his responsibility.  Coincidentally this occurred right after Parker was injured and they brought in Hallett to cover for B.A., who moved to HB, with Holm moving to the corner.  None of these moves would've been necessary if Rose was dressed.


Bighill wanted set the record straight about Montreal's second touchdown on Sunday, a play on which he figured prominently.

The Alouettes ran a play that seemingly matched up receiver Cole Spieker with a hobbling Bighill in a man-to-man situation, and Alouettes quarterback Cody Fajardo took full advantage.

Many observers questioned why Bighill would be in pass coverage in such a situation and his simple answer was this: He wasn't supposed to be.

"If you guys in the media are maybe a little bit more savvy watching football than maybe your average person, you know that we don't ask linebackers to cover receivers vertically down the field," Bighill said. "Let's just say I was trying to cover up and help out. Was that my man in man-to-man coverage? No. But it's OK, there was a miscommunication that Montreal did a good job of exploiting, coaching-wise. They saw something from the previous game that they went and attacked and made a big play on it. That's the way it goes, good play by them."

The play in question came shortly after starting cornerback Jamal Parker suffered an injury and the Bombers were forced to move their defensive backs around.

Brandon Alexander switched from safety to halfback, Evan Holm from halfback to cornerback and Nick Hallett came in at safety. Alexander and Hallett appeared to get crossed up as they didn?t pick up any receivers on the play in question.

Bighill appeared to pick up Spieker right away and tried to run with him but was easily beaten to the end zone and had no help from the DBs.

TecnoGenius

Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on November 22, 2023, 04:15:15 AM
He also explained the play he ended up covering the receiver was a bust and it wasn't his responsibility.

Ya, no kidding, as I said above.  And you're 100% right, the bust likely doesn't occur if Rose was dressed and so many shifts didn't have to occur.

It's part of the trade-off of dressing Biggie, not to mention having an IMP K.  And another indication that injuries cost us in many ways.  Had Parker not been dinged up already, maybe he doesn't go down there.  Not an excuse, but clear choices where we may have chosen wrong.  And once again, MTL with no injuries down the stretch (including miraculously unhurt Lemon) nor in the game.  We've had great injury luck in previous GC years; this year it finally caught up with us.  I guess it was just our turn.

Biggie shouldn't have to worry, I think most here would have known that while we may have a SAM isolated on a fast receiver, we would never task that to MIKE, whoever that may be.  The worst we may see is WILL on a very fast RB.  We don't blame you, Biggie.
Never go full Rider!

Jesse

Quote from: TecnoGenius on November 22, 2023, 05:16:35 AM
Ya, no kidding, as I said above.  And you're 100% right, the bust likely doesn't occur if Rose was dressed and so many shifts didn't have to occur.

It's part of the trade-off of dressing Biggie, not to mention having an IMP K.  And another indication that injuries cost us in many ways.  Had Parker not been dinged up already, maybe he doesn't go down there.  Not an excuse, but clear choices where we may have chosen wrong.  And once again, MTL with no injuries down the stretch (including miraculously unhurt Lemon) nor in the game.  We've had great injury luck in previous GC years; this year it finally caught up with us.  I guess it was just our turn.

Biggie shouldn't have to worry, I think most here would have known that while we may have a SAM isolated on a fast receiver, we would never task that to MIKE, whoever that may be.  The worst we may see is WILL on a very fast RB.  We don't blame you, Biggie.

Yes. This is the risk when you don't have depth rostered at DB (and receiver too).
My wife is amazing!

TecnoGenius

It just dawned on me that everyone who says Biggie is washed up and had a bad 2023 and needs to retire, needs to remember one thing about Biggie in 2023:

How many 3rd & 1's did Biggie stop in 2023?  I don't think I've ever seen a MLB stop so many.  Even Henoc when he was that beast in MTL a few years ago, wasn't stopping that many.

Biggie was so effective at it in 2023 the league had to "change the rules" by fining him for H2H.  So what did Biggie do?  He changed his method slightly (hands between helmets) and then kept on stopping people on SY.  This is simply amazing, and something not captured in any stats because a sneak-plunge by its nature must give the DT stat to many people.  And in any event, a +1 to DT stat doesn't capture the enormity of a 3rd down sneak stop.

I haven't watched the GC loss yet... but did Biggie get us that massive momentum-stealing goal line stand?  If so, I rest my case.

I'm 100% happy with Biggie being our MIKE in 2024, especially at cap-friendly prices.
Never go full Rider!

Throw Long Bannatyne

Quote from: TecnoGenius on December 09, 2023, 02:56:30 AM
It just dawned on me that everyone who says Biggie is washed up and had a bad 2023 and needs to retire, needs to remember one thing about Biggie in 2023:

How many 3rd & 1's did Biggie stop in 2023?  I don't think I've ever seen a MLB stop so many.  Even Henoc when he was that beast in MTL a few years ago, wasn't stopping that many.

Biggie was so effective at it in 2023 the league had to "change the rules" by fining him for H2H.  So what did Biggie do?  He changed his method slightly (hands between helmets) and then kept on stopping people on SY.  This is simply amazing, and something not captured in any stats because a sneak-plunge by its nature must give the DT stat to many people.  And in any event, a +1 to DT stat doesn't capture the enormity of a 3rd down sneak stop.

I haven't watched the GC loss yet... but did Biggie get us that massive momentum-stealing goal line stand?  If so, I rest my case.

I'm 100% happy with Biggie being our MIKE in 2024, especially at cap-friendly prices.

Biggie wasn't on the field for that play, it was Gauthier.

J5V

Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on December 09, 2023, 03:54:59 AM
Biggie wasn't on the field for that play, it was Gauthier.
Correct
Quote from: TecnoGenius on December 09, 2023, 02:56:30 AM
It just dawned on me that everyone who says Biggie is washed up and had a bad 2023 and needs to retire, needs to remember one thing about Biggie in 2023:

How many 3rd & 1's did Biggie stop in 2023?  I don't think I've ever seen a MLB stop so many.  Even Henoc when he was that beast in MTL a few years ago, wasn't stopping that many.
He'll be hard to replace, however, that doesn't mean you don't try. My concern is what I believe is a loss of foot speed. Too many times he was washed out and ineffective at stopping the run. I often found myself asking, where was Bighill on that play? Father Time is undefeated and it will be the case with many of our aging Bombers. To continue to be successful we must continue to retool. Our D is not championship calibre and hasn't been for a couple of seasons now.

Mike O'Shea is fiercely loyal to his veteran players and rightly so. That is why Wade Miller must insist on changes being made if we want to continue to vie for Grey Cups.
Go Bombers!

dd

Ya, MOS can play good cop, but Miller and Walters have got to make the tough calls on who stays and who doesn't.

TecnoGenius

Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on December 09, 2023, 03:54:59 AM
Biggie wasn't on the field for that play, it was Gauthier.

Wow!  Gauthier the hero of the 1st half!!  I really look forward to watching it, when I can stomach it.  At Tim Hortons Field you couldn't really tell much from the single, smallish jumbotron, and a replay guy who looked like he apprenticed under the IGF replay guy...

Gauthier sure steps up to save the day in big games, doesn't he.
Never go full Rider!

TecnoGenius

Quote from: J5V on December 09, 2023, 02:49:05 PM
CorrectHe'll be hard to replace, however, that doesn't mean you don't try. My concern is what I believe is a loss of foot speed. Too many times he was washed out and ineffective at stopping the run. I often found myself asking, where was Bighill on that play? Father Time is undefeated and it will be the case with many of our aging Bombers. To continue to be successful we must continue to retool. Our D is not championship calibre and hasn't been for a couple of seasons now.

Ya, but besides speed, what issue can we possibly take umbrage with against Biggie?  And I think he was faster in 2023 than 2022... was it the WDF he chased down VAJ and found that extra gear to force him OOB?  That was a big save, and we got to be pleasantly surprised Biggie found the speed to pull it off.  He was really slow in 2022, so it was nice to see him regain it some.

But the funny thing is the MIKE doesn't always have to be fast, and you can scheme around it.  Henoc isn't very fast.  I don't think Sankey is very fast either.  The bigger the MLB, the slower they tend to be.  You want run-stop beef, or you want a fast/lanky chaser?  I prefer a guy that can shed OL blocks and still stop the run when it comes by him.  A guy who can sometimes get home on a pass rush.  And a guy who can still drop back and play extra-DB.  Biggie can still do all of those things.  You scheme to have fast Wilson around if it's a chase-down straight-speed situation.
Never go full Rider!

dd

Bighill is a MAC LB not a MIKE LB

TecnoGenius

Quote from: dd on December 10, 2023, 03:14:49 AM
Bighill is a MAC LB not a MIKE LB

It's both:

Wikipedia: The middle or inside linebacker (MLB or ILB), sometimes called the "Mike" or "Mac"

I tend to prefer Mike.  The funny thing is, on this forum most people all-caps MIKE/MAC, WILL, SAM, even though they are not acronyms, and it's not common to do so.  However, by all-capsing, it does save us from typing "LB" after the name... Because if we just said Mike or Will, newer forum members / football fans would be searching our roster for a guy named Will.  At least with WILL you get some clue it's not a name.

Maybe the format used on many CFL depth charts would be better: WLB, MLB, SLB.  Easier to type (but not to say!), and is fairly unambiguous, and most people would "get it".  Meh, I'll just keep using MIKE.  ;)
Never go full Rider!

J5V

Quote from: TecnoGenius on December 10, 2023, 01:38:01 AM
Ya, but besides speed, what issue can we possibly take umbrage with against Biggie?
I'm not gonna pretend I'm some kind of expert because I'm definitely not. I just know Biggie *seemed* to disappear at crucial times this season and when I looked for him he appeared to be chasing the play. I do believe he's on the down-side of his career and is no longer the dominant player he once was. He's not alone in that regard. My biggest concern with this team is that we play the best players possible to give us the best chance to win. I'm not convinced we do that.
Go Bombers!

Jesse

Bighill has a lot of responsibilities that some other MLBs do not have.

He is not flying to the ball on every snap regardless of anything else. Someone like Sankey, that's all he does. So he racks up a lot of tackles. Bighill could do that too, and keep getting those 100 tackle seasons, but that's not his responsibility in this defence.

I could stand to see more snaps out of a guy like Cole or another prospect the we scout in the off-season. And I definitely would have sat his butt down in the Grey Cup. But count me as on the side of letting Bighill play as long as he's able to.
My wife is amazing!

dd

#54
Quote from: TecnoGenius on December 10, 2023, 07:28:45 AM
It's both:

Wikipedia: The middle or inside linebacker (MLB or ILB), sometimes called the "Mike" or "Mac"

I tend to prefer Mike.  The funny thing is, on this forum most people all-caps MIKE/MAC, WILL, SAM, even though they are not acronyms, and it's not common to do so.  However, by all-capsing, it does save us from typing "LB" after the name... Because if we just said Mike or Will, newer forum members / football fans would be searching our roster for a guy named Will.  At least with WILL you get some clue it's not a name.

Maybe the format used on many CFL depth charts would be better: WLB, MLB, SLB.  Easier to type (but not to say!), and is fairly unambiguous, and most people would "get it".  Meh, I'll just keep using MIKE.  ;)
You?ve clearly never played football before.

In a 4-3 defense, you have Sam, MAC, Will

In a 3-4 defense, you have Sam, Mike, MAC, Will

We play a 4-3 defense , so Sam-mac-will, biggie is a mac linebacker.

Pass this on to Wikipedia will ya

TecnoGenius

Quote from: dd on December 10, 2023, 06:11:21 PM
You?ve clearly never played football before.

In a 4-3 defense, you have Sam, MAC, Will

In a 3-4 defense, you have Sam, Mike, MAC, Will

We play a 4-3 defense , so Sam-mac-will, biggie is a mac linebacker.

Pass this on to Wikipedia will ya

I've said before that I've never played football beyond elementary.  Doesn't mean I can't learn the terms.

I dug a little more and there are some places that break out Mike vs Mack (note: Mack with a K seems to be what they use, strange).  However, it still appears that in a 4-3 the terms for the middle is interchangeable between Mike/Mack.  And since the CFL is almost always a 4-3 concept (except on obvious long passing downs or when your name is Chris Jones), then saying Mike/Mack would seem to be a preference choice.

It looks like you're referring to the differentiation of a scraper/chaser vs a beefcake bruiser in a 3-4.  But the CFL really doesn't do that except on special sets and schemes: like when we have Gauthier and Cole in, or other assorted spellers instead of Biggie.  All this stuff seems to apply more to the NFL concepts which in many ways are vastly different.

As for Biggie, I don't really think you could pigeonhole him as just a scraper/chaser or a beefcake... I think he does all the jobs, is tasked with doing all the jobs, and is pretty good at all the jobs (excluding pure speed).

So I'm pretty sure it's not required to correct people if they call Biggie a Mack or a Mike.  CFL Potawto vs CFL Potayto.  I dunno, maybe some others want to chime in.  Depressingly, I can't remember pressers with Hall or D people ever labelling our MLB as either!  So no help there.
Never go full Rider!

dd

The difference between a Mike and Mack is lost on you but there is a difference, not going to argue, couldn?t care

TecnoGenius

Quote from: dd on December 11, 2023, 11:32:00 PM
The difference between a Mike and Mack is lost on you but there is a difference, not going to argue, couldn?t care

Thanks for helping the forum members less knowledgeable than yourself fully understand a new concept, especially something as nuanced as the difference between Mike and Mack!
Never go full Rider!

blue_gold_84

It must be the off-season.
#forthew
лава Україні!
Don't be a Rich.

dd

Quote from: TecnoGenius on December 12, 2023, 08:29:37 AM
Thanks for helping the forum members less knowledgeable than yourself fully understand a new concept, especially something as nuanced as the difference between Mike and Mack!
That means a lot coming from someone who?s never played the game before. And it?s not a new concept, I was introduced to it in 1975, you and likely your dad wasn?t even born yet

blue_or_die

Quote from: dd on December 12, 2023, 10:58:39 PM
That means a lot coming from someone who?s never played the game before. And it?s not a new concept, I was introduced to it in 1975, you and likely your dad wasn?t even born yet

I think he was genuinely was thanking you.

No need to be so snippy. We get it, you played football and have been alive for a long time.
#Ride?

dd

Quote from: blue_or_die on December 13, 2023, 05:58:50 PM
I think he was genuinely was thanking you.

No need to be so snippy. We get it, you played football and have been alive for a long time.
No, Saying the mike and Mack is a new concept was an insult, it?s like I made it up, rather it?s been around since the turn of time. I know the difference between being sincere and being condescending.

Jesse

Quote from: dd on December 14, 2023, 02:25:46 AM
No, Saying the mike and Mack is a new concept was an insult, it?s like I made it up, rather it?s been around since the turn of time. I know the difference between being sincere and being condescending.

Dude, he was thanking you for explain a concept that was new to him.

And, frankly, he was being too polite, because your insistence that these terms you learned in the 70's are still applied in the same way seems unrealistic to me.
My wife is amazing!

blue_gold_84

#forthew
лава Україні!
Don't be a Rich.

bluebeard

Cracks are starting to show.  This is what is bothering me, all at once we get old together on the field, and we fail to win many games.  While other teams are down, should we not be playing the backups to see if they belong on the field?  We have to get younger at some point.

Throw Long Bannatyne

Quote from: bluebeard on December 14, 2023, 02:12:02 PM
Cracks are starting to show.  This is what is bothering me, all at once we get old together on the field, and we fail to win many games.  While other teams are down, should we not be playing the backups to see if they belong on the field?  We have to get younger at some point.

Half the players on the field for the last game against the Stamps were backups and they kicked their butts 36-13, so they got a good look at everyone they wanted to.

TecnoGenius

Quote from: Jesse on December 14, 2023, 11:47:16 AM
Dude, he was thanking you for explain a concept that was new to him.

And, frankly, he was being too polite, because your insistence that these terms you learned in the 70's are still applied in the same way seems unrealistic to me.

Quote from: dd on December 14, 2023, 02:25:46 AM
No, Saying the mike and Mack is a new concept was an insult, it?s like I made it up, rather it?s been around since the turn of time. I know the difference between being sincere and being condescending.

Yes, clearly I meant the concept was new to me and possibly many other forum members.  Clearly I didn't mean it was new in general because I laid out how I did a bit of research and found lots of articles outlining the differences.  If the concept was new in general, clearly there wouldn't be a lot of old articles to read about it.

Some posters forget what it was like to be a new fan on the forum, and new to football in general.  They seem to not want to teach anyone, but instead want to hoard the knowledge and act aloof, or even hostile when people ask questions.

I remember when I was new on the forum 8 years ago, and new to the lingo of football.  It was like going into French immersion for the first time... just trying to stay above water and pick up what one can.  I consider my football knowledge to have come a long way since then, and all thanks to the forum and the myriad people who were happy to answer my noobie questions.  Only sometimes were my questions met with hostility.  I never really understood why wanting to learn more gets some people angry.

Along the way I went from going to a couple of games a year to having STH for me and my son, and even going off to all the WPG post-season games.  It would seem to be the ideal progression that we would want for anyone new to the forum.  The opposite is instantly turning new people off to the forum when they see people being attacked for not knowing "enough" or asking for details about a concept that is new to them.

I guarantee you that if I didn't, after all this time on the forum, know about the difference between Mike and Mack, then many members also do not.  If I don't know it, then it was not talked about on this forum in my 8 years, because I read every post, and TSN has never talked about it either, because I watch every second of every CFL broadcast.  And since I don't watch NFL or college ball or played at a mid or high level, how on earth would I have learned it?

Anyone can go back a few posts to see what transpired.  Read my post "2023-12-10 20:15:03" that contains nothing "condescending" at all, but instead lists what I gathered from research and honestly asks for some help applying it to the CFL game and squaring it with my existing knowledge, from anyone who was familiar with the concepts.  And all I got was:

QuoteThe difference between a Mike and Mack is lost on you but there is a difference, not going to argue, couldn?t care

Forget about me, how is this helpful to anyone or good for welcoming new fans?  What did anyone gain?  Is anyone who doesn't know Mike/Mack any wiser?  It's worse than not replying at all, because you're attacking the act of asking questions.  And questions are a major part of why fan forums exist.
Never go full Rider!

ModAdmin

There is a wide variety of fans on every forum and social media outlet.  There is space here for everyone.  We have new and old fans and everyone in between.

We should be able to to get along and allow for the differences.  Most here do and we are grateful for that.  If you think you know it all, I can assure you there are people here who know more than you do.

Let's be aware of different levels of knowledge and experience and help others to understand the best game in Canada right now.  The off season can be testy at times but let's remember we are all pulling for the same team and league.
"You can't let praise or criticism get to you. It's a weakness to get caught up in either one." - John Wooden

theaardvark

I found this useful...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linebacker

Middle linebacker

The middle or inside linebacker (MLB or ILB), sometimes called the "Mike" or "Mac",[15] is often referred to as the "quarterback of the defense".[16] Often it is the middle linebacker who receives the defensive play calls from the sideline and relays that play to the rest of the team, and in the NFL he is usually the defensive player with the electronic sideline communicator. A jack-of-all-trades, the middle linebacker can be asked to blitz (though they often blitz less than the outside linebacker), cover, spy the quarterback, or even have a deep middle-of-the-field responsibility in the Tampa 2 defense. In standard defenses, middle linebackers commonly lead the team in tackles. The terms middle and inside linebacker are often used interchangeably;[17] they are also used to distinguish between a single middle linebacker playing in a 4?3 defense, and two inside linebackers playing in a 3?4 defense.[18] In a 3?4 defense, the larger, more run-stopping-oriented linebacker is usually still called "Mike", while the smaller, more pass protection/route coverage-oriented player is called "Will".[19] "Mikes" usually line up towards the strong side or on the side the offense is more likely to run on (based on personnel matchups) while "Wills" may line up on the other side or even a little farther back between the defensive line and the secondary.[19]


But no one trusts Wikipedia.... so here is a Boston Globe column

https://www.bostonglobe.com/ideas/2012/09/08/how-sam-mike-and-will-became-football-positions/URHq2XoAdviKJYZLQfbKNK/story.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4%E2%80%934_defense

Now, in a 4-4 defense, Wiki uses other names...

Inside linebackers

There are two inside linebackers in the 4?4 scheme sometimes known as the Mike and Buck linebackers. Where and how they play, and personnel types preferred, are highly scheme dependent. At least one of these linebackers assumes substantial pass coverage responsibilities.[10]



10 minutes with google and cut and paste...  who would have thought that the second middle linebacker would be called Buck...
Unabashed positron.  Blue koolaid in my fridge.  I wear my blue sunglasses at night.  Homer, d'oh.