VAJ's reach at the sidelines

[TecnoGenius]

I think it deserves its own thread.  I may have a lot to say and ask about this one.

From the GDT:

Lions go on 3rd and 1 but don't make it. Should have punted. Techno... Can you go back and see if the mark was good on VAJ's scramble on the play before that? I thought the ball was more than a yard further ahead than it was marked.

if a player steps out of bounds and holds the ball out in front ..does the ball get spotted where he went out or where the ball is?

They mark it where he stepped out. Only exception I can think of is if  they have the ball reached out over the goal line before they step out. Then called a td.

I'll have more for ya in a few minutes.  Only deep divers allowed on this thread!  If you hate details, stop reading!

[dd]

That was an absolutely horrible spot by the official, which is a shame in a game like this. I?d command centre sees the on field officials botched the spot, correct it for Pete?s sake!! Lions were absolutely robbed on that spot and then end up turning it over on downs the next play. Brutal

[TecnoGenius]

First, some facts:

A) The ref was ready: There's a slightly rotund sideline official 4 yards away right on the rail staring right at VAJ already prepared and looking for the spot.  He was totally on top of what he was doing.  And another ref running over from the box who's 1 yard away from that guy when VAJ goes out.  I'm assuming the official picked what he thought was the actual spot, as opposed to some nefarious explanation.  In any case, we can rule out the ref was flustered or out of place or not ready as the cause of any mis-spot.

B) It would have been reviewed: This occurs at 1:57, thus inside the 3 minute warning.  As such, command and EITS can auto-review any spot they feel is really off and/or will be game-changing.  They have corrected the spot numerous times in many games this season.  We must assume command agreed with the spot or had no evidence to correct it.

C) There is no clear camera angle provided that shows VAJ's foot at the moment it touches the sideline.  I am assuming TSN gave us all the good angles (the all-24 wouldn't be much use here).

D) VAJ loses the ball: Forgotten in all of this is the ball is coming out of VAJ's hand as he extends.  More on this later.  Without clear possession the ball does not advance.

[TecnoGenius]

There's a few possible things at play here.  First the "crazy" one:

#1: Can the ball be advanced if it's hanging over OOB?  I've asked this before and we had a good discussion, but it was never satisfactorily solved.  It remains a grey area.

People have noted that the rules on this are pretty sparse, with pretty much only the ball being "within the field of play" verbiage applying.  That would imply "within bounds".  Not the runner has to be in-bounds: the ball has to be in-bounds.  And so next we need to know if in-bounds implies not-yet-touching-the-OOB-line or simply within-the-plane-extended-up-into-space-from-the-OOB-line.

To make this concrete, imagine Willie J is a receiver and he catches the ball at the left sideline at the LoS.  Before advancing he reaches his 3' left arm with the ball out over the sideline so it's clearly hovering OOB.  Now he runs down the field for a TD that way with the ball hovering OOB the whole time.  Is that a TD?  Did the ball advance?

Back to VAJ, if the ball cannot be advanced if it is hanging over OOB then on this play then the progress was stopped the instant the ball broke the sideline plane.  From my examination this seems to occur precisely at where they spotted the ball: at the 53.  Note, at this moment VAJ's 2 feet are still very much in-bounds.

This is the easiest and best explanation if my thoughts about advancing the ball OOB are correct.  Based on previous discussions, I think most people think that's absurd, and so maybe/probably it's not the case here.  But it does precisely fit the spot in this case!

[Lincoln Locomotive]

Matt Dunigan thought he had the first down too....however that wasn't the call and they couldn't challenge it because they had lost their challenge.    Tough break, however they happen in football all the time.   Officials also missed two obvious head shots one on Zach and one on Woli that would have significantly impacted the game as well.
Bombers earned this victory and if they make the half yard on third down which is usually automatic for the Bombers, then we're not talking about this much.    Well the Bombers pulled up their collective socks and stopped them.   Also Adam Bighill made an incredible lunging tackle to get Adams out of bounds on that play.    Sometimes luck plays to your hand but you have to be good to be lucky and the Bombers are good.....damned good!

TBH, i had written the Bombers off after Zach was stripped of the ball in the Red Zone annd then BC kicked that FG with just under 6 minutes left.   But the Bombers BELIEVED and this is what Drew Wolitarsky was telling his teammates when he scored the TD to get within 3 points.   This guy brings soooo many intangibles to the team and makes him a special player as is Brady O who almost single-handedly took the team down the field in those last two drives.    I believe Brady is our MOP in that game and enters the convo for the Bombers MOP!

[TecnoGenius]

Next the plausible scenario:

#2: Assume balls can be advanced hovering OOB.  The official did his best on the spot, but in his position behind VAJ, and VAJ reaching in front of himself, he couldn't tell precisely where the ball progressed.  VAJ's body would have shielded the ball somewhat, and it's very hard to judge distance precisely when observing something directly in front of you moving quickly.

In that case the official would probably have to rule where he last saw the ball progress was, not assume it was somewhere else, however probably the assumption.

I'm not sure if the running-there-ref or the other-side ref can help in these cases.

The problem with this theory, is (B) from my "facts" post above: why didn't command correct a horribly flawed spot that instantly had BC and SSK fans up in arms, and has many on this forum thinking the same, blue googles notwithstanding?  This could possibly be explained away by my fact (C).  Command cannot make guesses or stabs in the dark, they need absolute proof to override the field spot.  Trust me, if the angles we saw are the only ones that could help, then you cannot override the spot.

But then I need to wonder how the ref could get the spot so wrong?  I'll talk about the angles more in my next post.  Are refs often off on this type of spot by 0.5 to 1.0 yards?  Is that normal and we just live with it because spotting is so difficult?

[TecnoGenius]

Camera angle examinations:

Live: The very first frame where VAJ's foot is down and might be touching the line I'd say the ball is 1/3Y closer to the sticks than the spot.  But you cannot tell if the right foot is on the line.  The next frame and the ball is 1/2Y closer.  You still cannot tell if the foot is on the line here, but you can make a pretty good guess that it is.  One frame later and the ball seems to be coming loose and the it is 4/5Y closer.  Next frame the ball is clearly dropping and only then does it reach the sticks at the 52YL.

Replay 1: This one is at a weird angle slightly farther downfield.  The frames aren't synced to the Live view, unfortunately; maybe half a frame out of phase.  There's a frame right before VAJ's foot touches the turf, and again the ball looks to be about 1/3Y closer to the sticks than the spot.  The next frame his foot is clearly down and it's more clear that almost certainly it's touching the sideline, albeit still not proven.  In this frame the ball is around 1/2Y closer.  His foot would have hit the turf between these two frames and thus by this angle we could assume the ball was between 1/3 to 1/2Y closer.  2 frames later the ball is clearly being dropped before it reaches the sticks.

Replay 2: This is the one with VAJ facing us and is the closest angle.  But there's a parabolic mic completely obstructing any clear view of VAJ's right foot!  This is the one that probably gives the "bad spot" crowd the best ammo.  There's a frame just before VAJ's pink foot gets completely blocked by the parabolic guy's head.  You could assume (though not prove) his foot is not touching the sideline, however the view is through the parabolic lens and thus might be distorted.  At this point the ball is once again about 1/3Y closer to the sticks.  Next frame and the pink is completely hidden but I would posit his foot is now OOB.  And again, the ball is now 1/2Y closer to the sticks.  But since we can't see the actual sideline where the foot is, this view is pretty useless for changing anything.  But if I'm right, once again the correct spot is probably 1/3 to 1/2Y closer.

I don't know why, but in that final angle, the ball doesn't appear to be in the process of being dropped until it crosses the sticks.

[TecnoGenius]

Conclusion: the spot-making official was pretty good, but slightly off.  From the video angles I would say the spot should have been around 18 inches closer to the sticks.  The best you could argue, I think, is it should have been around 1/2Y closer.  I don't see any rationale for reasonably claiming the spot should have been a first down.

With all the factors involved, the speed, the obstruction of the body, depth perception limitations, I would say the official did a good job.  I don't think he will get reprimanded.

I also think that no matter the spot, command had no ability whatsoever to overturn it, unless they have better angles we weren't shown.  There is simply no good view of his feet in relation to the sideline.  And conjecture cannot overturn calls or spots.

If Campbell had been able to challenge and done so, he would have lost.

[TecnoGenius]

Biggie deserves major credit for that effort and stop.  I told you last game that he seemed to have found some new speed.  Here he just chased down VAJ running for his life!  Who would have said a month ago Biggie was going to chase VAJ across half the field and win the race?

Biggie also predicted what was going on before the other D guys, and he went into an instant sprint at the perfect angle: not where VAJ was, but where he knew he was going to meet him and need a stop.

MOS is going to gush over this play in the film room.  This is heady stuff.  Anyone who thinks we're dropping Biggie for next season, think again.

And then Biggie goes and has a big impact on sneak stop!  And he does it without a UR and fine-inducing H2H!  He solved the puzzle of how to stop those guys with a jump over the middle.  Watch again: he does the same jump/pounce thing but he puts both his hands palms-out in front of his helmet so it's his hands that hit the QB.  Pretty smart solution to the problem, though I guess you need to be careful your hands don't get crunched.

[TecnoGenius]

BC fans should instead blame:

1. Campbell had the option of punting.  A decent punt would have coffined us.  If they fail at the coffin, then Grant is catching it at the 10 in the corner with tons of cover guys already there.

2. They could have gone for the punt single.  That would make us need a TD, which based on how the night was going, was going to be about 50/50 for us at that point in the game given our O performance up to that point.

3. Dom Davis & The OL (sound like a band name): They could have succeeded on the sneak.  It was precisely one yard.  Prukop has been 99 or 100% on those this season.  Dom should be too.  But teams need to remember that over the last 4 seasons I think WPG has the best SY-stopping record.

[TecnoGenius]

One more thought; maybe people with reffing experience can chime in:

What if the refs in tough and fast situations like this are trained to spot to the nearest hash mark?  It seems a bit convenient that the ball was spotted right at the mark.  Come to think of it, isn't this fairly common?  If true, it could be the ref just doing as he was trained, and humanly capable of doing, and since I believe the ball didn't make it past 1/2Y extra, the spot was perfect.

[TecnoGenius]

TBH, i had written the Bombers off after Zach was stripped of the ball in the Red Zone annd then BC kicked that FG with just under 6 minutes left.   But the Bombers BELIEVED and this is what Drew Wolitarsky was telling his teammates when he scored the TD to get within 3 points.   This guy brings soooo many intangibles to the team and makes him a special player

Ya, Woli picking up the energy and morale void left after AH33 departed.  A real vet presence, superb blocker, and a great receiver to boot.  He got a TD when many other of our R's failed.  We need guys like this on our team.  I thought it was pretty much over, too, though I knew they still had a chance.

That's why this felt like a do-or-die playoff for both teams: players were making those extreme-effort seemingly impossible plays.

[Blueforlife]

Biggie looked 10 years younger tracking him down.  Nice play.

[Lincoln Locomotive]

Ya, Woli picking up the energy and morale void left after AH33 departed.  A real vet presence, superb blocker, and a great receiver to boot.  He got a TD when many other of our R's failed.  We need guys like this on our team.  I thought it was pretty much over, too, though I knew they still had a chance.

That's why this felt like a do-or-die playoff for both teams: players were making those extreme-effort seemingly impossible plays.

Parker saved the day coming from behind to make the tackle when it looked like he was going to score....reminiscent of the MS last play TD against the Esks.    He left it ALL out there and played a great game as they really targeted him.    Also I believe BO20 made the tackle when Zach was stripped in the Red Zone and that saved a TD and they wound up kicking a FG.   A TD there would have likely finished us off...
.
Pretty much every Bomber player left it all on the field in this game and Zach despite his troubles kept his composure and finished them off in OT with Brady leading the charge.   The 2 point convo to Lawler was a thing of beauty where we have been struggling with this play in past games.

This game was one of Brady's best as a Bomber albeit he has picked up more combined yardage in previous games.   His blocking on run plays and pass protection, his effort on making the TD saving tackle and his receiving/running combined put an asterisk on his performance!   He has one more shot at our final home game of the season in a game that we must win to capture first place.   I'm hoping for and expecting another fantastic game from him.

[TBURGESS]

Thanks Techno. Even half a yard would have saved BC's bacon on the 3rd down play. Personally, I thought they got the first on VAJ's scramble and that they'd be able to drain the clock.