Our special teams are bad

Started by Austin85, August 19, 2023, 04:36:05 AM

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bunker

Quote from: Lincoln Locomotive on August 19, 2023, 03:57:32 PM
not keen on our Aussie punter.....give me the boomers with hang time that allows our cover team to converge on the returner.    His kicks are all low trajectory grounders and our cover team doesn't have enough time on most kicks.    When the returner is allowed that extra open space it's hell for tacklers.     Legghio was an OK punter but he also didn't have a lot of hang time....but his directional kicking was pretty good.    
Being as old as I am, I miss punters like Ed Ulmer who kicked the ball into the ozone.....you didn't see many big returns because the cover team had so much time to converge.
Medlock was as close to the perfect punter/kicker combination.....just not too many of these types roaming around these days!
Ulmer, there's a name from the past. If I recall correctly there wasn't any 5 yard restraining zone for the cover team in Ulmer's day, which may also have helped him, but otherwise I agree with your point. I think our problems are a combination of poor hang time and poor coverage. Lewis is a great returner as well, to give him his due. Wish we had someone like him to step in rather than McRae.

Throw Long Bannatyne

Quote from: TecnoGenius on August 19, 2023, 06:25:20 AM
Only the gunners are supposed to be right near the returner when the ball arrives, so what you describe is not that unusual.

As for hang time, we're experimenting with the weird "20 different kicks" Aussie style.  Teething pains.  He's doing those line drives and weird angles on purpose to try to catch the returner off guard, maybe make him whiff, maybe get it behind him.  I find our punt game intriguing, if a bit hair-raising.  There is no "hang time" on many of his kicks.  If the ploy doesn't work then the returner can get the ball fast before coverage gets close.  If the gamble doesn't work, we can go back to a traditional Meddy-style punter next season.  But I think we're stuck with it for now, unless a good NAT P gets cut (good luck with that).

We are going to need the extra GLOB spot when Hansen is better... and Maruo is becoming ingrained in the D...


Hard to count on hang time in an erratic wind, these Australian kickers seem to be very attuned to the conditions they are dealing with and have a wide variety of techniques to adjust to it.  They're bringing a lot of new technique to the CFL, imagine if every Cdn. kicker learned to kick in Hamilton.

Lincoln Locomotive

hang time is difficult in windy conditions for sure....but I still miss those towering punts.....
Bomber fan for life

Sir Blue and Gold

Punt cover needs some attention. Punt protection needs some help too... but part of it is that Jameison Sheahan needs to mechanically get a bit faster. Kick cover was average. The return game is great when we have Grant in there but we've clearly decided that the drop off to McRae is worth it for what he brings to the offense. Sheahan is actually a pretty decent holder and the field goal unit has been fantastic. We needed every point last night and they delivered -- not something we could count on last year. There's a lot of room to improve but I wouldn't use the word "bad" in the blanket term sense.

Pete

Maybe we need to be using one of our designated imports for a useful ST player, that can either tackle or handle returns. With the potential of injuries on the returners I'm surprised we haven't had one on pr. I like McRae's versatility but he's in basically not to lose field position versus giving us an advantage
.

theaardvark

I can imagine that putting an Aussie punter behind a cover team that is used to CFL punting can be a harrowing situation.  As they get more and more used to it, through repetition, they will get better...
Unabashed positron.  Blue koolaid in my fridge.  I wear my blue sunglasses at night.  Homer, d'oh.

Blue In BC

Quote from: theaardvark on August 19, 2023, 06:00:23 PM
I can imagine that putting an Aussie punter behind a cover team that is used to CFL punting can be a harrowing situation.  As they get more and more used to it, through repetition, they will get better...

That was game 10. Did it look like they were getting better?
Take no prisoners

bunker

Rewatching that blocked punt, I thinks it's on Kramdi not Sheehan. Sheehan doesn't take long to kick it. Problem is that Richardson is essentially untouched. The way he's lined up, Kramdi has responsibility for Richardson on the outside. For some reason he moves inside a step (even though there was no need to, no Calgary player was penetrating from the inside)  and blocks no one.

bwiser

Quote from: bunker on August 19, 2023, 06:52:54 PM
Rewatching that blocked punt, I thinks it's on Kramdi not Sheehan. Sheehan doesn't take long to kick it. Problem is that Richardson is essentially untouched. The way he's lined up, Kramdi has responsibility for Richardson on the outside. For some reason he moves inside a step (even though there was no need to, no Calgary player was penetrating from the inside)  and blocks no one.

Thats the way I saw it too. Kramdi looks like the guy who screwed up.

dd

The guys ran clean by kramdi and kramdi didn?t engage in anyone to block, looks like he completely whiffed on that play

TecnoGenius

Quote from: theaardvark on August 19, 2023, 03:27:21 PM
Didn't Hallett save McCrae's bacon on that fumble?

Yes

(For my own ref, because I had trouble finding it: 2Q1:03.  Anyone know a good game tracker url that actually works?)

Quote from: Jesse on August 19, 2023, 03:56:23 PM
That was a no yards too, wasn't it?

Yes, so I think the fumble and recovery never happened, officially.
Never go full Rider!

TecnoGenius

Quote from: bunker on August 19, 2023, 06:52:54 PM
Rewatching that blocked punt, I thinks it's on Kramdi not Sheehan. Sheehan doesn't take long to kick it. Problem is that Richardson is essentially untouched. The way he's lined up, Kramdi has responsibility for Richardson on the outside. For some reason he moves inside a step (even though there was no need to, no Calgary player was penetrating from the inside)  and blocks no one.

You nailed it.  I moaned about it at the time on the GDT.  Kramdi whiffed even worse than Sayles in the GC.  There seems a lack of seriousness on our Boudreau-led middle-area blocking, on both punts and FGs.  Kramdi was thinking about downfield and didn't care about his line block.  It's like they think every punt the opponent is just trying to get downfield.

The Kramdi and Sayles whiffs are of the worst type because we're sleeping and letting kick-rushers get through the box-area of the line.  This should never happen.  The off-the-edge super-speed kick-rush like Hallett did in the GC is hard to defend, but the middle is not.  I'm disappointed this wasn't fixed after the GC.

Teams now know this is a weakness of ours and they will exploit.  Act nonchalant for a few kicks and then nail you with their full might and speed when you're sleeping.  TBH it's inexcusable for a MOS-led team.
Never go full Rider!

TecnoGenius

Quote from: Sir Blue and Gold on August 19, 2023, 04:44:20 PM
Punt cover needs some attention. Punt protection needs some help too... but part of it is that Jameison Sheahan needs to mechanically get a bit faster. Kick cover was average. The return game is great when we have Grant in there but we've clearly decided that the drop off to McRae is worth it for what he brings to the offense.

We don't dress an extra IMP receiver, and so our returner is usually our backup receiver in case of injury.  As well as gravy for special sets.  Normally this would be Grant.  If we don't dress McCrae as a DI/returner then we have no IMP in case of injury on O.

Ya, we could roll with just BOO.  But we really like to reserve him to be an injury backup to Woli / Demski (because we are somewhat weird in that we dress 2 NAT receivers).

That is why McCrae is the last DI and not another DL or Parker.  And thus he kind of wins returner spot by default.  I don't see us going away from this 2-receiver IMP/NAT injury backup plan anytime soon.

Yes, we can find a way to get McCrae and Parker both dressed, but that doesn't help at all with the real need: DL.  And then McCrae isn't doing much at all and kind of a wasted spot (sans injury).  It's a bit of a tough puzzle.  Maybe the final decision was based on KISS: do it the way we always do it.
Never go full Rider!

TecnoGenius

Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on August 19, 2023, 04:10:45 PM
Hard to count on hang time in an erratic wind, these Australian kickers seem to be very attuned to the conditions they are dealing with and have a wide variety of techniques to adjust to it.  They're bringing a lot of new technique to the CFL, imagine if every Cdn. kicker learned to kick in Hamilton.

Yes, it's definitely an experiment, but one that has caught on greatly in the last 2 seasons as teams get these extra "free" GLOB AR spots.  MOS isn't one to jump on fads, but maybe Boudreau is.  I'm happy with our punting so far as it seems to keep teams on their toes (until it doesn't).  But the coverage is pretty bad.  Is it really just hang time to blame??  Maybe the aussie line-drive trickster style is great when it tricks them and real bad when it doesn't.  Read: Risky.  Again, doesn't sound like MOS style.

By the 4th the wind was becoming a non-factor if you look at the goalpost flags on FGs.  So not sure about the last couple of line-drives.  Then again, flags don't always tell the true story.
Never go full Rider!

TecnoGenius

Quote from: NewBlue on August 19, 2023, 04:03:54 PM
Anyways, what did we all think about the potential for contact on that block? The defender did roll into him afterwards.

I examined at the time and there was contact but well after the kick leg came down, and not rough, and since the ball was touched "contacting the kicker" is not penalized by rule.
Never go full Rider!