Fake-conceding a safety

[TecnoGenius]

He isn't a punter, back peddling isn't kneeling, there is no rule that says you have to instantly start running or that you can't 'dance'.

What the rushers are thinking doesn't matter either, nor does any other play where no flag was thrown.

The only thing that matters is... Did he fake taking a knee or not? Some folks contend that you can see he did in slow motion or in a single frame. I say it's like PI, if you can't tell at real speed, then it's not a penalty.

Sure you could argue all that.  Then I would ask you: Then why did Proulx blow the whistle?  Clearly Proulx saw something that was enough for him "at real speed".  Keep in mind Proulx is the CFL ref with the most experience at this moment.  IMHO he's also the best.

Many of my points were suggestions on how the rule should be amended to disambiguate things and protect player safety, which after all is the entire point of these things.

We may learn more as early as today if the CFL deems it worth of clarification.  If they don't clarify, then punter-dancers will need to be coached up on how to avoid the perception of fake-conceding given the new precedent.

[blue_or_die]

For what it's worth (not much), I was at the game and when I first saw the play in real time, I saw the play unfold and was outraged at the returner and thought it was a fake. I was relieved when the flag got thrown. I can't confirm I saw him bend his leg (what I think it would take in order to call it a fake) but at least at the time, I felt like I saw that happen. If he was just "looking like he might take a knee but backpeddles and then takes off", I agree that should be fair game.

Anyone got a replay of that moment, or screenshots? This sounds like a job for Techno at 3 am

[TecnoGenius]

Anyone got a replay of that moment, or screenshots? This sounds like a job for Techno at 3 am

I did the screenshot already in an earlier post:
https://fsi.ca/tec/fake-conceding.jpg

I had the same impression as you @IGF when it first happened.  But I didn't know about the new rule so I was confused for a bit.  The part that stood out to me live was Gauthier easing off: I could see it clearly from my seats.  He would only ease off if he thought the P was taking a knee.

[Throw Long Bannatyne]

For what it's worth (not much), I was at the game and when I first saw the play in real time, I saw the play unfold and was outraged at the returner and thought it was a fake. I was relieved when the flag got thrown. I can't confirm I saw him bend his leg (what I think it would take in order to call it a fake) but at least at the time, I felt like I saw that happen. If he was just "looking like he might take a knee but backpeddles and then takes off", I agree that should be fair game.

Anyone got a replay of that moment, or screenshots? This sounds like a job for Techno at 3 am

Waders27 had the full game replay up on YouTube for a few days, but now I see it's been taken down.

[blue_or_die]

I did the screenshot already in an earlier post:
https://fsi.ca/tec/fake-conceding.jpg

I had the same impression as you @IGF when it first happened.  But I didn't know about the new rule so I was confused for a bit.  The part that stood out to me live was Gauthier easing off: I could see it clearly from my seats.  He would only ease off if he thought the P was taking a knee.

Oops sorry- TLDR'd a lot of this thread.

I rewatched it just now here; the play develops at 58:55 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENx2vk0TaTQ

Wow that is very close. I do think the play was made in bad faith (since knees, hook slides, running for out-of-bounds are done for player safety) and there was baiting but to throw a flag....I'll chalk it up as chintzy. Not as black and white as TBurg wants to believe.

[TecnoGenius]

Wow that is very close. I do think the play was made in bad faith (since knees, hook slides, running for out-of-bounds are done for player safety) and there was baiting but to throw a flag....I'll chalk it up as chintzy. Not as black and white as TBurg wants to believe.

But there's the conundrum.  Proulx can't have the play whistled dead unless he throws the flag.  Option matrix (assuming no one thought Adeleke's knee actually touched the ground, which no one is claiming):

1. Don't blow whistle, no flag <--- valid as per rules
2. Blow whistle, no flag      <--- not a valid rule
3. Blow whistle, throw flag   <--- valid as per rules; this is what happened

To blow the play dead he had to have already decided there was a penalty, otherwise he cannot blow it dead.  The only way to blow it dead is if a fake occurred (in his opinion) or the knee touched the ground.  If he did and admits to #2 then he's saying he screwed up (as some Riderfans proffer).

Now, Proulx or command could have done one last option:

4. Blow whistle, throw flag, picked the flag up after further review, and still saved face (for command, less for Proulx)   <--- valid a per rules

But I'm happy with what happened.  I think it sets a good precedent (hopefully they'll be consistent), and "dancers" will "be less sneaky".  Even better would be league clarification or rule amendments, but we rarely get that.

[TBURGESS]

I did the screenshot already in an earlier post:
https://fsi.ca/tec/fake-conceding.jpg

I had the same impression as you @IGF when it first happened.  But I didn't know about the new rule so I was confused for a bit.  The part that stood out to me live was Gauthier easing off: I could see it clearly from my seats.  He would only ease off if he thought the P was taking a knee.

That screen shot shows him changing direction, not taking a knee. What else you got?
I watched the video too and remain convinced that it was a crappy call.

[bunker]

Live, I was happy to take the call and consider it the right one.

Looking at the video a few times though, I don't think he got close enough to taking a knee to make it a penalty. I have no doubt Edeleke was trying to sell the bombers on his about to be taking a knee to buy more time. I think Proulx had the right intention, but made the call prematurely. I think he got lured in by Edeleke sitting waiting for a few seconds, which often proceeds taking a knee, and by a slight dip down as he takes off to his left. I understand the thinking behind not wanting players to fake taking a knee, but I don't think this rose to the threshold of a penalty. Having said that, I had to look at the video several times before making my mind up and obviously Proulx does not have that luxury. I don't think its a slam dunk either way.

[blue_or_die]

That screen shot shows him changing direction, not taking a knee. What else you got?
I watched the video too and remain convinced that it was a crappy call.

The screen shot shows him bending his knee slightly and then him changing direction instead of following through on the knee bend. There?s no need to bend your front knee to change direction, so he was doing it to bait the Bombers that he?d follow through and got called out. It?s no worse than the 10ish calls every single game that are close to 50/50.

[TBURGESS]

The screen shot shows him bending his knee slightly and then him changing direction instead of following through on the knee bend. There?s no need to bend your front knee to change direction, so he was doing it to bait the Bombers that he?d follow through and got called out. It?s no worse than the 10ish calls every single game that are close to 50/50.

Try changing direction without bending your knee. It's not easy.

The call was worse than 90+% of the calls that are made every game. Not close to a 50-50 call.

Bunker's way closer to right than you are.

[TecnoGenius]

2 of the 3 people involved in the play -- Proulx and Gauthier -- thought he was taking a knee before he didn't.  If Gauthier is fooled, then it's reasonable Proulx is fooled too.  The key to the new rule is you cannot try to fool anyone.  So by the result of them being fooled, is it not a breaking of the rule?

For those watching the video, especially the live (not slowmo) shot, wouldn't you agree Gauthier had a chance to paste Adeleke but holds up and veers left?  It's subtle, but I think Adeleke left his cut too late and would have been creamed.  Let me know if you disagree.

Since this Proulx call has 2 different fan forums (probably more) roughly evenly split on good call / marginal call / bad call, the league should clarify.  I'm a bit miffed no one asked the question of MOS on the coaches show (I forgot it was on so couldn't call in).  If there's a cat forum, someone go check what they think (haha, maybe not).

Since there's usually one "dancer" every couple of weeks, we may not have to wait long before seeing how the teams/players are going to interpret this new precedent.

[Throw Long Bannatyne]

That screen shot shows him changing direction, not taking a knee. What else you got?
I watched the video too and remain convinced that it was a crappy call.

I would say it qualifies as an unnecessary call as many weak penalty calls turn out to be, Proulx should have just let them play football with so little time remaining on the clock.  He certainly drew attention to himself needlessly by making a controversial call at a bad time, if he hadn't blown the play dead nobody would have thought twice about that play.

Looks like B.A. received a fine for the helmet to helmet hit he laid on the Ti-Cat receiver immediately prior to this controversial call.  I noticed that one too and thought it should have been called on the spot.

@EdTaitWFC

CFL has issued its Week 1 discipline report. Two notes as it relates to the
@Wpg_BlueBombers
: -Brandon Alexander was fined for a high hit on Ticat receiver Kiondr' Smith -Ticat DT Mohammed Diallo was fined for unnecessary roughness on Geoff Gray.

[TecnoGenius]

Another question: if this new rule is applied correctly, are the refs supposed to whistle the play dead immediately upon the "fake", or are they supposed to let the play continue and apply the penalty after?

The answer to that would be important in this case, as the whole point of the exercise was to kill clock.  Most in-play penalties are not immediate-blow-dead penalties.  Illegal procedure is one of the only ones.

Glad belly-flop Diallo got fined.  BA's one is unfortunate.  The way he plays, even if he tries to avoid H2H it's going to happen sometimes.  That new SSK Dalke FS had at least one H2H in his hellacious-hitful first game... he didn't get fined.

[dd]

Objectionable conduct is not a kill play, the play goes on despite the objectionable conduct. It?s just like if a player swears obscenaties at the ref, he gets flagged but the play goes on. It just so happens most objectionable conduct penalties happen after the play is dead, but in cases where the play is still live, the play plays out then yardage applied.

[blue_or_die]

Try changing direction without bending your knee. It's not easy.

The call was worse than 90+% of the calls that are made every game. Not close to a 50-50 call.

Bunker's way closer to right than you are.

You most certainly do not, with your knees already slightly bent, need to do another duck forward in order to change direction like Adeleke did. That?s why it looked out of place if that was in fact all he was doing. Proulx and Gauthier and other viewers saw it that way to at least some extent. I never said this was cut and dry, and I already called it chintzy. You saying it?s ?worse than 90% of the close calls made in every game? is going just as far in the other direction.