Kyle Walters

[blue_gold_84]

It's possible that there wasn't cap space last year to sign Lawler.

We had a ton of people on the 6-game in 2022, which enabled Walters to do some cap shenanigans at the end of the year to take stress off of some 2023 deals.

This.

[Sir Blue and Gold]

It's definitely not a "value signing", Aardvark. Lawler is likely the number 2 paid receiver in the league. There is always "cap space" to sign players, Jesse. Cap allocation is a choice. We could have had Lawler last year and done without someone else. I think it's interesting that people thought $300,000 was crazy last year and pat Walters on the back for not signing him for that, but are incredibly happy we signed him for $265,000 and $300,000 in 2023 and 2024. If he is worth $300,000 as a 30-year-old in 2024, he was worth $300,000 as a 28-year-old in 2022.

Again, it was a miss. Walters isn't perfect nor does anyone expect him to be. We wouldn't have tried to trade for him if it wasn't.

[blue_or_die]

It's definitely not a "value signing", Aardvark. Lawler is likely the number 2 paid receiver in the league. There is always "cap space" to sign players, Jesse. Cap allocation is a choice. We could have had Lawler last year and done without someone else. I think it's interesting that people thought $300,000 was crazy last year and pat Walters on the back for not signing him for that, but are incredibly happy we signed him for $265,000 and $300,000 in 2023 and 2024. If he is worth $300,000 as a 30-year-old in 2024, he was worth $300,000 as a 28-year-old in 2022.

Again, it was a miss. Walters isn't perfect nor does anyone expect him to be. We wouldn't have tried to trade for him if it wasn't.

Two counterpoints:

1) It is possible for 300k to be above market value one year and 300k to be market value the next.

2) Going after a player you let walk at FA right before a cup run is not the same as admitting you were wrong about that player. It's just that: gearing up for a run and stacking talent when possible with what resources you've found yourself with at that time of year.

But to be fair, yeah, neither of those are examples of brilliant GMing...but they are competent moves, for sure.

[Sir Blue and Gold]

Two counterpoints:

1) It is possible for 300k to be above market value one year and 300k to be market value the next.

2) Going after a player you let walk at FA right before a cup run is not the same as admitting you were wrong about that player. It's just that: gearing up for a run and stacking talent when possible with what resources you've found yourself with at that time of year.

But to be fair, yeah, neither of those are examples of brilliant GMing...but they are competent moves, for sure.

I agree with your points expect for your bolded point. Gearing up for a cup run is one thing, even though rentals aren't exactly common in football like other sports. But not only did he try and trade for him, he also signed him the following off season for pretty much the same money as he didn't sign him for last off season. That is pretty much the definition of admitting you were wrong about the player, the market and his value to the team.

Again, I'm not trying to make Walters out to be a bad GM. He's fantastic in virtually every measurement. But there's a lot of people here praising him and pointing out how great he was at handling this one, and in my books it can only be a miscalculation. Nothing catastrophic, but far from good and hilariously far from "insanely astute".

[Pigskin]

I agree with your points expect for your bolded point. Gearing up for a cup run is one thing, even though rentals aren't exactly common in football like other sports. But not only did he try and trade for him, he also signed him the following off season for pretty much the same money as he didn't sign him for last off season. That is pretty much the definition of admitting you were wrong about the player, the market and his value to the team.

Again, I'm not trying to make Walters out to be a bad GM. He's fantastic in virtually every measurement. But there's a lot of people here praising him and pointing out how great he was at handling this one, and in my books it can only be a miscalculation. Nothing catastrophic, but far from good and hilariously far from "insanely astute".

So far, it looks like your on an island by yourself. So far, most members believe $305K was to much for the Bombers last season.

[dd]

So far, it looks like your on an island by yourself. So far, most members believe $305K was to much for the Bombers last season.

2 things come to mind....I remember Lawler making 2 insane diving highlight reel catches in one game last year on long bomb passes that looked uncatchable, and then I think about the long pass Schoen dropped in the GC game. $305 was not too much to spend last year, as we would have had another GC with him in our lineup.

[Sir Blue and Gold]

So far, it looks like your on an island by yourself. So far, most members believe $305K was to much for the Bombers last season.

Why did you delete my post? Didn't like the logic or couldn't handle the grammar check? Abuse of power, no?

[Jesse]

It's definitely not a "value signing", Aardvark. Lawler is likely the number 2 paid receiver in the league. There is always "cap space" to sign players, Jesse. Cap allocation is a choice. We could have had Lawler last year and done without someone else. I think it's interesting that people thought $300,000 was crazy last year and pat Walters on the back for not signing him for that, but are incredibly happy we signed him for $265,000 and $300,000 in 2023 and 2024. If he is worth $300,000 as a 30-year-old in 2024, he was worth $300,000 as a 28-year-old in 2022.

Again, it was a miss. Walters isn't perfect nor does anyone expect him to be. We wouldn't have tried to trade for him if it wasn't.

I agree with you that saying Lawler is a "value" is ridiculous. That's just re-writing history and it is very common among fans right now.

I don't agree that there's "always cap space". We allocated our resources the way we did last year and it did not include Lawler - then we had multiple players added to the 6-game injured list which created space that would not have existed had those players stayed healthy. It is under these circumstances that we tried to trade for Lawler and signed him this year (at 265).

In order to keep Lawler in 2024 (at 300+), something will have to change. Either more injuries that create cap room, or higher salaries removed elsewhere on the roster.

[Sir Blue and Gold]

I agree with you that saying Lawler is a "value" is ridiculous. That's just re-writing history and it is very common among fans right now.

I don't agree that there's "always cap space". We allocated our resources the way we did last year and it did not include Lawler - then we had multiple players added to the 6-game injured list which created space that would not have existed had those players stayed healthy. It is under these circumstances that we tried to trade for Lawler and signed him this year (at 265).

In order to keep Lawler in 2024 (at 300+), something will have to change. Either more injuries that create cap room, or higher salaries removed elsewhere on the roster.

Totally agree with you that something will have to change in 2024. Most likely the Bombers are planning for one or more of their big contract vets to retire (Bryant, etc.) which would free up the difference needed for Lawler. However, I think it's pretty obvious that in a league of one year (mostly non-guaranteed) contracts there is always cap space available, should it be deemed necessary. That is to say, it was a choice not to resign him in 2022 and also a choice to find room for him, however it was done, in 2023 (and 2024, presumably).

[blue_or_die]

I agree with your points expect for your bolded point. Gearing up for a cup run is one thing, even though rentals aren't exactly common in football like other sports. But not only did he try and trade for him, he also signed him the following off season for pretty much the same money as he didn't sign him for last off season. That is pretty much the definition of admitting you were wrong about the player, the market and his value to the team.

Again, I'm not trying to make Walters out to be a bad GM. He's fantastic in virtually every measurement. But there's a lot of people here praising him and pointing out how great he was at handling this one, and in my books it can only be a miscalculation. Nothing catastrophic, but far from good and hilariously far from "insanely astute".

Yeah but I'd go back to my first point in my prev post and say that (one of) the reasons we did that is because the market value of the elite class of receivers has crept over the course of the year. I think that's evident in the price overall this FA. Also, I believe there's talk of a new TV deal that GMs are expecting to bolster the cap and support these spending habits that even responsible guys like KW are finding themselves with

[theaardvark]

It's definitely not a "value signing", Aardvark. Lawler is likely the number 2 paid receiver in the league. There is always "cap space" to sign players, Jesse. Cap allocation is a choice. We could have had Lawler last year and done without someone else. I think it's interesting that people thought $300,000 was crazy last year and pat Walters on the back for not signing him for that, but are incredibly happy we signed him for $265,000 and $300,000 in 2023 and 2024. If he is worth $300,000 as a 30-year-old in 2024, he was worth $300,000 as a 28-year-old in 2022.

Again, it was a miss. Walters isn't perfect nor does anyone expect him to be. We wouldn't have tried to trade for him if it wasn't.

The reason to trade for him was injuries... and having cap space.

Signing him for $265 this year is a bargain, he could have gotten more elsewhere, and Lewis getting $325 is proof of that. 

So, yeah, Walters gets a backpat for signing a player for well under his value. 

[Pete]

The reason to trade for him was injuries... and having cap space.

Signing him for $265 this year is a bargain, he could have gotten more elsewhere, and Lewis getting $325 is proof of that. 

So, yeah, Walters gets a backpat for signing a player for well under his value. 

And kudos to lawler for signing for less to be with the team that really gave him the chance to be in the upper echelon of cfl recievers

[TecnoGenius]

I don't know how anyone could've missed this back in October. Lawler's season came to end due to a shoulder injury that required surgery.

It was reported by Naylor in considerable detail. IIRC, it was around the same time the Bombers made the trade for Darby.

EDIT: https://winnipegsun.com/sports/football/blue-bombers-deadline-move-for-kenny-lawler-scuttled-by-injury

Weird I don't recall any chatter here at the time, nor a posting of that article link.  Either I was just asleep, or no one put it here.  I only read here... if it's not here, it doesn't exist for me!  (For better or for worse)

And, my memory is getting hazy but didn't Lawler get injured mid-season and there was talk of him coming back for the last couple of games?  It sounded to me like this trade talk was after Lawler's injury in hopes he'd be better for playoffs?  I guessed wrong.

[TecnoGenius]

1) Walters probably made the wrong call on letting Lawler leave to begin with. Last year $300,000 for top end receivers was too steep, this year it's the norm and Walters re-signing Lawler for that amount proves he was more or less wrong in his evaluation last off-season -- both in terms of market value and his contribution to the team.

2) I don't think that trying to trade for a player you let go in the off-season and then realized you needed is "insanely astute". It is more of a mea cupla, if anything.

Ok, my only response to that is: what was your take on this forum in the '22 FA when Lawler left for sick money in EDM?  Because I don't recall anyone here saying we should have paid him that.  Not a single soul.  Which is rare for this forum.

Were you saying at that moment in '22 FA we should have paid Lawler a matching $$ to keep him here?  If not, then aren't you just engaging in hindsight?

And if we want to just go by hindsight, NOT signing Lawler was the right thing to do because he was going to tub a whack of the games (and postseason?).  It's just like NOT signing Stove, Nevis and AH33 was the right move because they all tubbed it heavily after leaving.  It's easy for us to say now they were good moves, but no one could have known (for most of them).

Re: mea culpa / insanely astute: it takes an insanely astute GM to do a mea culpa and admit they were wrong and try to rectify it.  KW knew at whatever point he tried to get Lawler that our WR/SB corps wasn't going to cut it going into the GC.  And he was right, they let us down.

[TecnoGenius]

I think it's interesting that people thought $300,000 was crazy last year and pat Walters on the back for not signing him for that, but are incredibly happy we signed him for $265,000 and $300,000 in 2023 and 2024. If he is worth $300,000 as a 30-year-old in 2024, he was worth $300,000 as a 28-year-old in 2022.

I'm sure some are in my boat: one of complete shock we picked up Lawler, and are paying 265/300 for him.  It's not WFC M.O. at all, and is a bold move and a bit of a gamble.

However, it could be The Mafia thought the WR/SB were good enough to roll with in '22 and then realized by the end of the season (or certainly after the GC) that it was the wrong move.  They may be uniform in thinking that to win it all in '23 we need a top-3 SB (rookies excluded).  They may not be wrong...

Look at the teams that usually win the GCs over the last decade... '22 GC was a big aberration in that neither team had a top-3 vet IMP SB (rookie Schoen doesn't count).  I'm thinking Green, Owens, Cahoon, Dressler, Simon; in their respective teams when they won it (homework: add to that list).

So I accept the Lawler overspend as a probably-necessary move.  That's why I was vocal about being so much more thrilled with the Demski re-sign.  That was much more a typical WFC $$ move.