2023 CFL Combine

[TecnoGenius]

However there are always exceptions. Jamal Peters for example ran a 4.63 and is a 2022 CFL All Star, and Gary Peters ran a 4.59 who was also an All Star.

Or maybe the dude who picks the all-stars has the last name Peters? 

When your coach is Mike O'Shea, and your GM is Wade Miller

Proofread!

[Sir Blue and Gold]

I'm talking about motivation, and about smarts.  There are lots of players with unimpressive 40 times that are "fast" on the field.  Likewise, there are guys that jump off the charts in testing that flame out, or are barely average. 

Most important trait in players in this draft, at least for the Bombers it seems, is heart.  Desire to play the game to your highest level every snap.  The old "stealing snaps in camp" that lands you a roster spot.  The interview that shows a coach that you *need* to play football. 

When your coach is Mike O'Shea, and your GM is Wade Miller (who's measurables in a combine would have been disqualifying at best), you know heart is the only measureable that matters.

Untrue. Motivation and/or "heart" as you put it, takes talented teams and makes them even better. But all the heart in the world is no good if you don't also have the talent. Mike O'Shea was also an extremely talented football player. He didn't do it on heart alone. Speed is one of the most important "talents" that a lot of football players need to excel. I don't care how much heart a defensive back has, he can't cover fly from the boundary if he's four steps slower than the receiver across from him, for example. Any of you ever try playing football against someone significantly faster than you? Good luck.

[LXTSN]

Untrue. Motivation and/or "heart" as you put it, takes talented teams and makes them even better. But all the heart in the world is no good if you don't also have the talent. Mike O'Shea was also an extremely talented football player. He didn't do it on heart alone. Speed is one of the most important "talents" that a lot of football players need to excel. I don't care how much heart a defensive back has, he can't cover fly from the boundary if he's four steps slower than the receiver across from him, for example. Any of you ever try playing football against someone significantly faster than you? Good luck.

You have to have talent to play in the league.
But MOS won't draft someone unless he believes that he would fit right into our system.
You guys are arguing like its one or the other... They need to have both.
They are looking for upside and talent at that position AND the heart and head to think on their feet.

If it was as simple as getting the fastest guys, John Ross would be owning the NFL, but instead, you've probably never heard of him.

[Sir Blue and Gold]

You have to have talent to play in the league.
But MOS won't draft someone unless he believes that he would fit right into our system.
You guys are arguing like its one or the other... They need to have both.
They are looking for upside and talent at that position AND the heart and head to think on their feet.

If it was as simple as getting the fastest guys, John Ross would be owning the NFL, but instead, you've probably never heard of him.

I don't mean to argue, I just mean to say that we have been winning football games because of our superior talent, first and foremost. The culture/heart thing that is referred is totally legit and helped enable the Bombers to dominate the CFL over the last few seasons. But we shouldn't get it confused, it is talent first, followed by the right attitude that is paramount.

[the paw]

I don't mean to argue, I just mean to say that we have been winning football games because of our superior talent, first and foremost. The culture/heart thing that is referred is totally legit and helped enable the Bombers to dominate the CFL over the last few seasons. But we shouldn't get it confused, it is talent first, followed by the right attitude that is paramount.

I think the Herdman brothers are a good example of your point.  Great football IQ, all kinds of heart and pedigree.  But neither of them has been able to keep a starting spot, because they lack the foot speed.  They can play in a rotation and contribute on STs, but as a consistent starter they get exposed.

Nothing wrong with having a Herdman on your team (or a Hurl or Labbe).  But they are a different commodity than a Muamba, Teitz, Emry, or Judge. 

[dd]

Hard work beats talent when talent doesn?t want to work hard. At the professional level, you need both to just compete

[ModAdmin]

More insight on players at the Combine...

D line - https://www.cfl.ca/2023/03/29/costabile-camaraderie-skill-at-the-forefront-of-d-line-at-combine/

DBs - https://www.cfl.ca/2023/03/29/ferguson-did-the-combine-dbs-have-more-size-than-usual/

Top Prospects - https://www.cfl.ca/2023/03/28/for-comparisons-sake-projecting-the-combines-top-prospects-2/

On Daniel Oladejo - https://www.cfl.ca/2023/03/30/landry-daniel-oladejos-big-combine-splash/

[TecnoGenius]

Hard work beats talent when talent doesn?t want to work hard. At the professional level, you need both to just compete

A lot of things go into winning.  Most important is the team.  Even if you have the single best CFL guy on D, and the single best CFL guy on O, you aren't going to do squat (look at Lawler in EDM, or Willie in SSK).  Even if you have the 3 best CFL guys on OL, you'll still have a sieve OL if the unit doesn't gel.  Even having the league-best QB and league-best WR doesn't win games: look at Reilly+Burnham in BC.

The whole team has to gel, the units have to gel, and they all need to complement each other.  And none have to be league-best.  For 3+ years WPG was winning a lot of games with Nichols and we really didn't have any "league top-3" at any position, except maybe when AH and Biggie came over.  When they brought in extra talent, it wasn't to make WPG good -- we were already good; it was to put us over the top to be the best.

In a single game I say heart/hunger/morale can overcome talent.  TOR proved that in the GC.  We didn't have the hunger anymore (2 rings will do that to ya) and morale went to pot when we didn't just trash them.

Since culture helps a team gel, and helps recruit good players for less $$, of course it's important.  It could even be that this means, in a way, culture == talent.  At the very least culture -> talent.

The final piece in our always-changing-roster league is consistency.  That has been critical these last 3 seasons, allows us to get out of the gate fast and bank the early wins.  In 2023 consistency will be king once again, and we win that category hands down.

[TBURGESS]

Talent beats Team every day of the week & thanks to Walters and company, we've assembled the best talent in the league.

Culture is grossly overrated around here. Our culture was in place for years before we got Collaros and we were a mid-tier team at best.

Consistency is only good when you're a good team. Consistently bad isn't what anyone wants.

[dd]

Our loss in the recent grey cup didn?t have anything to do with team, or culture. We lost because our talented players didn?t execute and play well. Plain and simple. Sxhoen dropping the long post pattern pass is an example of  poor play. Missing a block on a field goal is another example of poor execution. Collaros was totally off in this game. So when talent has an off day at the park, team and culture can help deal with the aftermath, but you still lose the game because talent didn?t play well.

[TecnoGenius]

Our loss in the recent grey cup didn?t have anything to do with team, or culture. We lost because our talented players didn?t execute and play well. Plain and simple. Sxhoen dropping the long post pattern pass is an example of  poor play. Missing a block on a field goal is another example of poor execution. Collaros was totally off in this game. So when talent has an off day at the park, team and culture can help deal with the aftermath, but you still lose the game because talent didn?t play well.

I'm not sure you can say the rookie, low-paid Schoen is the "talent".  To me the "talent" is the huge-$$ FAs like Willie, Zach, (now) Lawler, Demski, Biggie.  Jeffcoat too, but Jeffcoat did make a big-game play.

Who made the great plays for us?  The ELC and mid-tier guys: Hallett, Grant, even Ellingson with one great catch.

Who botched it the most, if you want to pin it on 3-5 plays?  Strangely, except for Zach it wasn't the "talent" (big $$).  Yes, Schoen, set the tone, badly.  Sayles botching the FG block, inexcusable, but he wasn't big-$$ "talent" in 2022 (though apparently he is in 2023).  Our WILL (and FS, and less so MLB) botching the two Oullette TD runs.  The same on the Kelly explosion.  The missed PAT.  It was the ELC and mid-tier guys blowing the "critical" plays.  Those are the plays that lost the game.

So I wouldn't pin the loss on the "talent".  I do pin it on the "team" and the preparation, mindset and morale.  If you want to say something about the talent, it's that they were asleep.  Maybe they were frozen.  They got shellshocked that TOR was actually playing well and our O couldn't move the ball.  The morale was low, and even with the freebie "bump up" by Grant in the 4th, the morale sagged again nearly instantly.

In 2019 the hunger is what won the game.  TOR's hunger won 2022.  They just wanted it more.  Their talent was sucking pretty bad too, and it was prior-year-unknown Oulette and noboby-Kelly that basically won it for them.  I won't really credit Muamba with much, as the INT was basically a freebie from Zach and in any event he was in that position solely because their DC called the perfect play.  MBT was playing like garbage and AH didn't do much after 1Q.

No, in the end talent didn't determine the GC, it was hunger and morale.  The hope now is that the sting of the loss will let the Bombers get their heads on straight for the 2023 rematch.  (And maybe wake up Buck and Hall, too; both called a poor game.)

[DM83]

Cute discussion.  Full of nonscence, but, in reality, if any of these can't run, they won't earn a checque for very long.
Great "rudy" type dreaming.  But as they say, you can't teach speed.  If guys can run they can be coached up.  i.e. Bob Hayes, Dallas Cowboys.

[drahgon]

Would be cool to see Charlie Ringland in blue and gold! Winnipeg kid and an Oak Park alum...