Blue Bombers re-sign linebacker Shayne Gauthier

[Blue In BC]

I think we're likely to look at free agency for Sam lb or look to bring in someone new
For some reason Darby hasn't been a priority and little has been said about him

We can't tell what the team's position of Darby is at the moment. He may have said he intends to leave or wants more than we expect to pay. He's no different than knowing what's going on with Demski, Bailey, Sayles or Grant. Each may be the next to re-sign or the 1st to leave.

At the moment there are a lot of potential free agents at nearly every position. IIRC about 175 potential free agents left.

[theaardvark]

I dreaded the tampering period in the past, but I'm thinking it may favour us this year, in defining what the price tag for players like Demski, Couture, Bailey and Darby will be.  Having that information makes heading into FA much more defined. 

And I think Walters is one of the best GM's in the CFL when he has all the information.  And he has the advantage of our culture and our HC...

[TecnoGenius]

Who are all these great SAM's that the Bombers found?  Edmonton found Maston, we traded to get Darby. Rutledge signed in the XFL after getting released.

OTOH Bombers found Santos -Knox and he continues to be a dominant LB. Currently he's moved to MLB but was primarily a WIL in Winnipeg.  Wild was better than you give credit.

BTW, Kramdi is our Canadian back up at SAM.

I listed the very good SAMs WPG has had in the last decade in another thread (or this one?).  Leggett, Maston, Darby, Rutledge: all very very good SAMs.

I forgot about JSK, so you got one on me there.  But I'd posit that JSK and Wilson were our only "league-top-5" WILLs in the last decade.  Wild was good and a fan fave, but never a top-5 guy.  No team was dying to woo Wild away from WPG.

Kramdi is just a NAT kid (for now) and cannot serve in a long-term fill-in role if our starting IMP SAM goes down.

"Finding" players includes scouting other rosters and trading for players.  What we see and what others see is often different.  I have no issue with picking up players other teams originally scouted and recruited, and consider them "found". 

Aards is 100% correct here and I don't know why you are bashing him.  No one (to my knowledge) was trying to make the discussion about "finding raw rookies".  "Find" in this discussion meant brining the right guys into WPG, whether FA, DP, trades, sniping cut players, or (yes) rookies from the USA.  Forgot about "find".  Change it to the word "hire".

And I still contend we have an easier time, and do a better job at "hiring" WILL than SAM, in the last decade.  At the very, very worst, they are equal.  But in no way is "hiring" a good WILL easier than SAM.  The ultimate, main reason for this is SAM is almost a glorified DB who is often slightly bigger than the other DBs.  WILL is a completely different skillset, even with the field change.

Revisionist history. We've found good  rookies at WIL more readily than at SAM which is the opposite of what you said. You can't say we find players we need to replace and then suggest we couldn't find a new player at WIL to support your argument.

Not talking "rookies".  Ignore the word rookies.

We found Bowman, Wild, Knox, Santos-Knox and Wilson to fill the position of WIL.

Last decade only (i.e. mostly MOS/KW tenure).  Wild was decent/good, but only JSK and Wilson were/are great, and coveted by other teams.  Knox was meh, where is he now?  What did he do after leaving here?

My point being it's easier to find a player at WIL than at SAM and that SAM is a more critical position on defence. In the past 2 seasons we've used Briggs, Gauthier and Clements to fill in while Wilson was injured.

Now you're conflating 2 different ideas.  Yes, SAM is a more critical position, except maybe come GC time (see 2022 GC).  Not many would argue that.  But it still doesn't prove your first point.

And no one is talking about just "finding players"... we're talking about finding great players!  I still contend we've had more great SAMs in the last decade than WILLs.  And when we're down a SAM we seem to go off and FA or scout or snipe another great SAM right away.  Look how fast we solved the 2x Maston achilles disasters!

Sure, you can find any old schmoe to fill in at WILL.  Maybe Hurl's available.  That's a meaningless thing to discuss.

Actually forget about all this talk, just look at 2022!  We were short Wilson nearly immediately and we suffered at WILL all year and into the GC!!  We had decent replacements, but no one nearly as good as Wilson, and it may have cost us the GC.  Now compare with SAM: we lost Maston right away for the whole season and we found a very good replacement in Rutledge, who played most of the season games and did nearly as well as Maston would have IMHO.  No one picked on our SAM, which is usually an indication of weakness.  Teams were picking on the weak-side flat all year against us.  So in 2022 what position was it hard for us to excel at... WILL, not SAM.

SAMs and DBs in general seem to "grow on trees" down south and always seem in abundant supply.  The league goes through a whack ton of them every year.  Even the good ones quietly come and go.  I don't see that same kind of churn or overall higher level of talent with WILLs.  When teams find great ones they tend to hang onto them.  They are more like MIKEs that way.

[TecnoGenius]

I think we're likely to look at free agency for Sam lb or look to bring in someone new
For some reason Darby hasn't been a priority and little has been said about him

It's weird.  Darby always looks extremely happy to be here, or be back here, or to be playing here, every time I see him on camera.  I definitely got the impression he was glad to be back in blue&gold last in the season.

It could be that we only have $100k allocated for SAM and Darby wants $130k.  And maybe The Mafia doesn't think that extra $30k buys them their money's worth?  If Rutledge played out this way in 2022, then maybe KW is right!  Except for the abrupt end to his career he was doing great.

But I would hope WPG has another great SAM idea in the hopper (Maston??) for if/when we lose Darby.  Is it worth the savings to not just go with the proven commodity?  If I'm KW, I probably sign Darby and pay the premium.  However, if I was KW I'd probably go $1M over the SMS every year, so...

[Pigskin]

Some talk about Mercy Maston. He's played 3 regular season games with the Bombers in 3 years. In back to back years he's had season ending injuries in TC. I am not sure I would put my money on MM again this season. I like Darby and he is very versatile. But the $$ have to fit into our cap space.

[Throw Long Bannatyne]

I listed the very good SAMs WPG has had in the last decade in another thread (or this one?).  Leggett, Maston, Darby, Rutledge: all very very good SAMs.

I forgot about JSK, so you got one on me there.  But I'd posit that JSK and Wilson were our only "league-top-5" WILLs in the last decade.  Wild was good and a fan fave, but never a top-5 guy.  No team was dying to woo Wild away from WPG.

Kramdi is just a NAT kid (for now) and cannot serve in a long-term fill-in role if our starting IMP SAM goes down.



Last decade only (i.e. mostly MOS/KW tenure).  Wild was decent/good, but only JSK and Wilson were/are great, and coveted by other teams.  Knox was meh, where is he now?  What did he do after leaving here?

Two names forgotten in this debate are Anthony Gaitor and Khalil Bass.  Gaitor played most of 2 seasons at SAM with the Bombers and was adequate to good, he decided to leave the team when O'Shea wanted to move him to another position to accommodate Mercy Maston mid-season 2019. 

Bass was the ying to Wild's yang and had 2 very good years in Wpg. bouncing between WIL and MLB during the Hurl years, before leaving the team in 2017 F.A. for Ottawa.  His career pretty much went downhill once he left the Bombers.

[Throw Long Bannatyne]

Some talk about Mercy Maston. He's played 3 regular season games with the Bombers in 3 years. In back to back years he's had season ending injuries in TC. I am not sure I would put my money on MM again this season. I like Darby and he is very versatile. But the $$ have to fit into our cap space.

Was just looking at that, he's listed as playing 6 games in 2019 plus the 3 playoff games.

[Pigskin]

Was just looking at that, he's listed as playing 6 games in 2019 plus the 3 playoff games.

The CFL has him list as playing for the Bombers on: Aug 8th, Aug 15, and then he sat out until Oct.25. So that would be 3 regular season games. Then he played in the 3 playoff games for a total of 6 games.

The gap between Aug15 and Oct 25, was this another injury???

[the paw]

There is a lot of straw man-ish debate in the WIL vs SAM recruiting issue, and without debunking each of the erroneous claims point by point, I would offer the following observations:

1.  Wild was a great WIL, as good or better than Kyrie Wilson, IMHO.  In addition to three very strong seasons in the 70 tackle range, he was a consistent playmaker.  He leveraged his time here into an offer from the Steelers, something none of our other WILs have seemed to be able to do.  He was also a high performer on ST and longsnapper for a bit.  His time at MLB was less dynamic, and I feel his career tapered off because his smaller size and physical style of play wore him out sooner. 

2.  I think it is "easier" to find WIL players because typically when a player comes out of college as a LB, he fits in as a LB in the CFL.  It's apples to apples as a transition.  In the case of SAM, we are converting DBs, so there is a bit more trial and error.  I think we have been successful at both positions, but we have probably tried more candidates at SAM to arrive at a good place. 

3.  Part of the perception around SAM might flow from Hefney's refusal to play there, and then Gaitor's drama.  These may have contributed to the perception of difficulty.  I thought Clint Kent was very good there, Leggett was probably the best.  Brandon Stewart stunk when tried there, Jovon Johnson did it for a couple of games and it was clearly not his optimal use.  Some DBs fit there, but a lot don't.   

[Blue In BC]

There is a lot of straw man-ish debate in the WIL vs SAM recruiting issue, and without debunking each of the erroneous claims point by point, I would offer the following observations:

1.  Wild was a great WIL, as good or better than Kyrie Wilson, IMHO.  In addition to three very strong seasons in the 70 tackle range, he was a consistent playmaker.  He leveraged his time here into an offer from the Steelers, something none of our other WILs have seemed to be able to do.  He was also a high performer on ST and longsnapper for a bit.  His time at MLB was less dynamic, and I feel his career tapered off because his smaller size and physical style of play wore him out sooner. 

2.  I think it is "easier" to find WIL players because typically when a player comes out of college as a LB, he fits in as a LB in the CFL.  It's apples to apples as a transition.  In the case of SAM, we are converting DBs, so there is a bit more trial and error.  I think we have been successful at both positions, but we have probably tried more candidates at SAM to arrive at a good place. 

3.  Part of the perception around SAM might flow from Hefney's refusal to play there, and then Gainey's drama.  These may have contributed to the perception of difficulty.  I thought Clint Kent was very good there, Leggett was probably the best.  Brandon Stewart stunk when tried there, Jovon Johnson did it for a couple of games and it was clearly not his optimal use.  Some DBs fit there, but a lot don't.  

You're point in item # 2 was my point. That was why I queried whether Wilson could be / should be considered a candidate to move to SAM from WIL. A couple of posters felt that it was more difficult to find a WIL than a SAM and I strongly disagreed.

I don't know whether Wilson would make a good SAM. It was just the thought that if he was capable and we lose Darby, I'd rather have a rookie WIL than a rookie SAM. Wilson is very fast and has a high football IQ. IMO those are critical components for a good SAM although not the only ones.

Very probable we bring in a bunch of candidates in the DB/SAM group. This happens for every TC. We might even find one in free agency since there are some very good ones that might reach free agency.

Again, this is only and issue / question if we don't re-sign Darby.

[the paw]

You're point in item # 2 was my point. That was why I queried whether Wilson could be / should be considered a candidate to move to SAM from WIL. A couple of posters felt that it was more difficult to find a WIL than a SAM and I strongly disagreed.

I don't know whether Wilson would make a good SAM. It was just the thought that if he was capable and we lose Darby, I'd rather have a rookie WIL than a rookie SAM. Wilson is very fast and has a high football IQ. IMO those are critical components for a good SAM although not the only ones.

Very probable we bring in a bunch of candidates in the DB/SAM group. This happens for every TC. We might even find one in free agency since there are some very good ones that might reach free agency.

Again, this is only and issue / question if we don't re-sign Darby.

While I agree that WILs are easier to find, I have seen no evidence that Wilson is a viable SAM candidate.  He's bulkier, and while he's fast for a WIL, he's doesn't have the speed for a SAM.  I can't think of too many players across the league who flip between these positions.

There is the argument that the change in hash marks will make SAMs and WILs more like each other.  But other than the interview with Chris Jones, I don't think we've seen evidence of that happening.  At least not yet.  Maybe it will be a gradual development.

I think moving Wilson to SAM would be like when Jovon Johnson tried it.  You can make it work, but its not a good fit, and you're giving up something by taking a player away from his best position.  All IMHO of course.

[Blue In BC]

While I agree that WILs are easier to find, I have seen no evidence that Wilson is a viable SAM candidate.  He's bulkier, and while he's fast for a WIL, he's doesn't have the speed for a SAM.  I can't think of too many players across the league who flip between these positions.

There is the argument that the change in hash marks will make SAMs and WILs more like each other.  But other than the interview with Chris Jones, I don't think we've seen evidence of that happening.  At least not yet.  Maybe it will be a gradual development.

I think moving Wilson to SAM would be like when Jovon Johnson tried it.  You can make it work, but its not a good fit, and you're giving up something by taking a player away from his best position.  All IMHO of course.

You could very well be correct. My question was somewhat hypothetical and wouldn't be my 1st choice. I did consider that he was a little heavier than I would like but OTOH I have seen him 20 -30 yards downfield in coverage either as a primary or in secondary coverage. In the same sense where we seen Bighill in coverage dropping to safety. Same attributes in speed and football IQ.

[Throw Long Bannatyne]

You could very well be correct. My question was somewhat hypothetical and wouldn't be my 1st choice. I did consider that he was a little heavier than I would like but OTOH I have seen him 20 -30 yards downfield in coverage either as a primary or in secondary coverage. In the same sense where we seen Bighill in coverage dropping to safety. Same attributes in speed and football IQ.

I think if Darby signs elsewhere the Bombers find their next SAM in house, Lawrence, Parker or Maston (if they renew) are all possibilities, as the main qualification for SAM is a smart DB good in pass protection who also has a physical edge too play the run.

[blue_or_die]

I would like to see this forum ban comments about anything that happened in seasons 2012, 2013, 2014 and 2015. They are evoking dark memories and inflicting trauma in me.

Thank you.

[Blue In BC]

I think if Darby signs elsewhere the Bombers find their next SAM in house, Lawrence, Parker or Maston (if they renew) are all possibilities, as the main qualification for SAM is a smart DB good in pass protection who also has a physical edge too play the run.

I'm not expecting Maston to return after missing the last 2 seasons. Parker seems a bit small to be a run support and cover guy but could be in the consideration. Just off the top Lawrence could be a better choice of those two.