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Author Topic: CBA negotiations  (Read 22298 times)
Blue In BC
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« Reply #180 on: May 17, 2022, 04:09:16 PM »

Could be that some of the private owners are opposed to opening their books up to audit, especially if they're not single entities and integrated with other businesses as in the case of the Stamps and Argos.

The union has no right to see the books of private owners. Doesn't matter if they are making millions or not. The leagues isn't intended as a non profit organization. All indications are that making any money is not easy on a yearly basis. The reno's to BC Place in 2010-2011 were about $630M. While that was absurd and the stadium is used for other functions, stadium costs and maintenance fall in some part to each team.

I haven't heard anyone comment on whether the players were required to vote on the offer or whether that happened.

Dead silence at the moment including nothing about new discussions planned.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2022, 04:15:20 PM by Blue In BC » Logged

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Jesse
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« Reply #181 on: May 17, 2022, 04:20:08 PM »

Could be that some of the private owners are opposed to opening their books up to audit, especially if they're not single entities and integrated with other businesses as in the case of the Stamps and Argos.

That must be it, but man, there has to be a way to show just the one aspect of the business.


I didn't see the $100K increase to the SMS in year 2.. My impression was that none of the increases would be done until 2023. Since the increase was $18M over that 6 years that's $300K increase on average 2023-2027. You may be correct.

Now that's just an average and it there may have been a proposed smaller increase in 2022?  I'm not sure it really matters, since player contracts are in place already. It would give teams more room to add NFL returnees at the end of the year but it's after the fact at the moment.

If the $100K is an actual fact and they agreed to use that to increase the ELC in 2022 that's a different option. I'd guess most teams only have a dozen or so ELC's? That would consume that $100K and I'd have no issue with some explanation of the increase on a year to year basis. However I assumed an equal amount each year.

What you're saying is that the annual increase starts off on a smaller curve and rises through the agreement length. Previous CBA only had $50K increases in the last 2 years IIRC. So $100K in year 2 seems to follow that path except for nothing in 2021.

In theory the SMS could increase by $1M in 2021. It doesn't mean teams will spend any or all of it. That's a catch 22.

Even if the duration is reduced to 5 years from 7, then the total would reduced proportionately. $300K X 5 instead of $300K X 7

I'm having some trouble understanding the math as well (Which might be a problem the players are having as well).

18.9 works out to 350k increase per year.

But Naylor says it's 100k (which only amounts to 5.4 million)

https://www.tsn.ca/dave-naylor-a-closer-look-at-the-cfl-s-latest-cba-offer-1.1800031
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Blue In BC
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« Reply #182 on: May 17, 2022, 04:56:27 PM »

The guaranteed contract issue is interesting. ELC's are 2 year contracts and the trend for players now is towards 1 year deals. I think 1st rounders sign 3 year ELC's?. Even on 2 year deals there is an NFL opt out in the 2nd year.

So this is a little like wanting your cake and eating it too.

If a 2nd contact is another 2 years, then asking for a 50% guarantee in the 4th year is not out of the question on one hand. On the other hand there are already veteran cut down dates that cover this to some degree.

The downside for a team is that that they can't release a player in TC that is going into year 4 without a 50% cost and SMS hit as well. That's a function no go IMO. It reduces the chance of a veteran player being released because of the associated costs.

Players should win or lose their roster spots based on performance.  They lose their roster spots relative to performance / over cost decisions.

The link doesn't mention the $18.9M. It only mentions the SMS to increase a minimum increase of $100K starting in 2023.

$18.9 divided by 9 teams = $2.1M / per team divided by 7 years = $300K?
« Last Edit: May 17, 2022, 05:03:57 PM by Blue In BC » Logged

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theaardvark
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« Reply #183 on: May 17, 2022, 05:06:21 PM »

$100k/per year SMS increase per team. 

So, from the base point, 100k in 2023, 200k in 2024, 300k in 2025, 400k in 2026, 500k in 2027, 600k in 2028.

1+2+3+4+5+6= 2.1million per team over 7 years

2.1mil * 9 = $18.9million league wide.

There's the math for you... that's guaranteed, not including any other money that may come into play.

As some players have mentioned, that 100k in 2023 will not cover the added $5k in the minimum salaries for those players on minimum, so some vets will take a small haircut... tiny really.. yo have to have 20 players making minimum to use up all the SMS increase year one, and for the next few years, the increases more than cover it until 2027, when it goes up another $5k...  so overall, there might be a little penny pinching at the top, but nothing like some players are suggesting.

Were I a CFLPA player, this is NOT something I'd quibble about... in the face of probable declining revenue, a guarantee raise every year in $$$ available is a no doubt slam dunk "Yes please".
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Jesse
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« Reply #184 on: May 17, 2022, 05:19:22 PM »

$100k/per year SMS increase per team. 

So, from the base point, 100k in 2023, 200k in 2024, 300k in 2025, 400k in 2026, 500k in 2027, 600k in 2028.

1+2+3+4+5+6= 2.1million per team over 7 years

2.1mil * 9 = $18.9million league wide.

There's the math for you... that's guaranteed, not including any other money that may come into play.

As some players have mentioned, that 100k in 2023 will not cover the added $5k in the minimum salaries for those players on minimum, so some vets will take a small haircut... tiny really.. yo have to have 20 players making minimum to use up all the SMS increase year one, and for the next few years, the increases more than cover it until 2027, when it goes up another $5k...  so overall, there might be a little penny pinching at the top, but nothing like some players are suggesting.

Were I a CFLPA player, this is NOT something I'd quibble about... in the face of probable declining revenue, a guarantee raise every year in $$$ available is a no doubt slam dunk "Yes please".

THAT was it!

It's the accumulative difference of the cap.

100k in year 1 + 100k in year 2 doesn't cost 200k, it costs 300k. That's how the math works to 18.9.
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theaardvark
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« Reply #185 on: May 17, 2022, 05:26:24 PM »

https://www.tsn.ca/dave-naylor-a-closer-look-at-the-cfl-s-latest-cba-offer-1.1800031

Term ? The CFL is proposing a seven-year term for the new collective agreement. The players have requested that the deal expire 30 days before the opening of training camp in 2029, as opposed to the day before the opening of camps.

Roster changes beginning in 2023 ? There will be seven (7) National Starters, one (1) of whom can be a Nationalized American as defined as any American player who has three years with the same team or four in the CFL. Teams have a choice between 20 or 21 nationals and one or two global players. Each team will have three quarterbacks.

Guaranteed Contracts ? A player who has completed a CFL contract with his team may have the final year of his next contract 50 per cent guaranteed if he re-signs with existing team. If a player is released before final season of that contract, can collect 50 per cent guarantee and still sign with another CFL team.

Not sure how a "Nationalized
Salary Cap ? Beginning in 2023, cap will go up a minimum of $100,000 per season (double that of previous CBA). If 25 per cent of revenue growth sharing formula amount is greater than $100,000 then that number will be applied to cap annually.

Community appearances ? Each team commits $110,000 per season to players for community appearances (in addition to salary cap).

Definition of revenue ? Will use definition from previous CBA which gives union audit rights. The union and accountant have access to all financial records for review and audit.

Minimum Salary ? Goes from $65,000 to $70,000 in 2023. Goes to $75,000 in 2027.

Padded Practices ?  Teams may have one hour of padded practice per week in one day during the Club?s regular season to a maximum of twelve.

Player Rehab and Medical Costs ? League will extend coverage from three years post-playing to four years, beginning in 2025.

Timing of season ? The CFL can start the season up to 30 days earlier, commencing with the 2023 season.

Canadians Returning from the NFL ? Any Canadian player returning from the NFL after three or more seasons collecting a salary would not be restricted to the CFL rookie scale and have full rights to negotiate a contract with team owning his CFL rights. Each year in the NFL counts for one year on the CFL rookie contract grid. (Three years).

Flexible Practice times ? Teams may hold longer practices at certain times of the week, balanced by shorter sessions at other times. No overall increase in total practice time.

Increases in pre-season and post-season compensation based on hitting revenue threshold of $300 million. Increases of $100 per week for pre-season, $500 for post-season participation, $2,000 for Grey Cup losers and $4,000 for winners.


Truly, I don't see anything here to quibble with, maybe term, and maybe rehab/medical to 5 from 4, or 4 plus an additional year for every season competed in over 5...

The return from NFL looks good, no mention of changes to GLB status... would like to have seen that, might be in the CBA, just not mentioned here

50% guarantee of final year sounds great for the PA... again, designed to reward players for team loyalty.  

Not sure how "Nationalized American" works, is it a designation done one time for an entire contract length, or can it be a designation that changes week to week?  If a "Nationalized American" goes to the IR, can a team designate another?

As to the tweets I see out there that "The players just want to be respected" and "get what they deserve", I'm really sorry, but that's your agent's job.  This is a business, there are budgets, its up to you to take "what you deserve" from that.  The teams are "respecting you" by giving you a contract.  If you do not feel no team is offering what you deserve, you are free to seek employment elsewhere.
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Blue In BC
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« Reply #186 on: May 17, 2022, 05:33:41 PM »

THAT was it!

It's the accumulative difference of the cap.

100k in year 1 + 100k in year 2 doesn't cost 200k, it costs 300k. That's how the math works to 18.9.

Yes and no. Year 1 is 2022 and there is no raise currently. The 2nd year of the deal is the 1st year with a raise and so on. That's math too. lol

That said, no raise in 2022 but $600K in the last year? That could be spread out something closer to an average over the length of the contract. Most of the players in the league in 2022 won't be in the league at the back end of the contract.

Even the $5K 2nd increase in ELC in 2027 won't impact very many on current rosters. Any player that survives into their 5th year won't be on an ELC level salary.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2022, 05:37:02 PM by Blue In BC » Logged

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Jesse
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« Reply #187 on: May 17, 2022, 05:37:08 PM »

Yes and no. Year 1 is 2022 and there is no raise currently. The 2nd year of the deal is the 1st year with a raise and so on. That's math too. lol

I just meant year 1 of raises.
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theaardvark
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« Reply #188 on: May 17, 2022, 06:31:18 PM »

Yes and no. Year 1 is 2022 and there is no raise currently. The 2nd year of the deal is the 1st year with a raise and so on. That's math too. lol

That said, no raise in 2022 but $600K in the last year? That could be spread out something closer to an average over the length of the contract. Most of the players in the league in 2022 won't be in the league at the back end of the contract.

Even the $5K 2nd increase in ELC in 2027 won't impact very many on current rosters. Any player that survives into their 5th year won't be on an ELC level salary.

Its not $600k *in* the last year, it is a cumulative $600k as of the last year.  Just another $100k, so each year they get $100 raise in SMS, $5.5mil in 2022 up to $6.1mil total SMS in 2028

As to the min salaries, its not ELC, but the minimum you can pay.  ELC prevent you from paying more on first contracts, but the min salary is for any player in any year of their contract... there are many players that are ST specialists or NAT veterans who will get that minimum.  Yo can play 15 years and never get a contract over the minimum... but you will always get at least the minimum.

The changes to the "return from NFL" clauses means players coming in from the NFL are not subject to ELC's, which could have prevented guys from even bothering with the CFL after the NFL...  not sure which players it has affected, but I'm sure it has in the past.   
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Blue In BC
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« Reply #189 on: May 17, 2022, 07:43:45 PM »

Its not $600k *in* the last year, it is a cumulative $600k as of the last year.  Just another $100k, so each year they get $100 raise in SMS, $5.5mil in 2022 up to $6.1mil total SMS in 2028

As to the min salaries, its not ELC, but the minimum you can pay.  ELC prevent you from paying more on first contracts, but the min salary is for any player in any year of their contract... there are many players that are ST specialists or NAT veterans who will get that minimum.  Yo can play 15 years and never get a contract over the minimum... but you will always get at least the minimum.

The changes to the "return from NFL" clauses means players coming in from the NFL are not subject to ELC's, which could have prevented guys from even bothering with the CFL after the NFL...  not sure which players it has affected, but I'm sure it has in the past.  


It's $2.1M increase over 7 years per team. Not a $600K increase over 7 years. Even you said it the quoted line below this.

1+2+3+4+5+6= 2.1million per team over 7 years

 $18.9 million in total guaranteed increases to the salary cap league-wide.


Obvious comment about the ELC but I doubt anybody would ever get less than an ELC after their 1st contact. I also doubt many wouldn't be getting more after their 1st contract. An ELC doesn't prevent you from paying more. It's the floor not the ceiling.

I'm not sure that any player that managed 3 years in the NFL was going to sign at rock bottom prices. Even if that was true, so be it.

EDIT: $600K over 7 years would make more sense. That number X 9 teams is $5.4M. So it's not accumulating to a $6.1 SMS in year 7 according to that unless the $18.9 M was a large typo.

« Last Edit: May 17, 2022, 08:19:18 PM by Blue In BC » Logged

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theaardvark
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« Reply #190 on: May 17, 2022, 07:53:15 PM »


It's $2.1M increase over 7 years per team. Not a $600K increase over 7 years.


? $18.9 million in total guaranteed increases to the salary cap league-wide.


Obvious comment about the ELC but I doubt anybody would ever get less than an ELC after their 1st contact. I also doubt many wouldn't be getting more after their 1st contract.

I'm not sure that any player that managed 3 years in the NFL was going to sign at rock bottom prices. Even if that was true, so be it.

You can't get less than an ELC, except by being on the PR.

When you pay players like Collaros, Jefferson, and the like, you also have to have players making league minimums.  So, either players on ELCs or vets glad to have a job, even at $65k/yr.

In past CBA's, players had to sign ELC's if they had no CFL experience.  I remember there being issues with players interested in coming to the league, but balking at the allowed salaries.  I don't remember specifics, I'm sure someone out there knows.  This change allows teams to recruit players and start them at a reasonable "star" salary rather than an ELC, based on their NFL time.  There have been ex-NFL players interested in just playing, regardless salary, but this opens things up a little for CFL teams to pay "twilight" NFL players more than ELC to finish up here...
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Blue In BC
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« Reply #191 on: May 17, 2022, 07:58:41 PM »

You can't get less than an ELC, except by being on the PR.

When you pay players like Collaros, Jefferson, and the like, you also have to have players making league minimums.  So, either players on ELCs or vets glad to have a job, even at $65k/yr.

In past CBA's, players had to sign ELC's if they had no CFL experience.  I remember there being issues with players interested in coming to the league, but balking at the allowed salaries.  I don't remember specifics, I'm sure someone out there knows.  This change allows teams to recruit players and start them at a reasonable "star" salary rather than an ELC, based on their NFL time.  There have been ex-NFL players interested in just playing, regardless salary, but this opens things up a little for CFL teams to pay "twilight" NFL players more than ELC to finish up here...


I don't think that is correct. Even Mourtada was listed as earning more than the minimum salary as a 1st CFL player.

Wednesday was the deadline needed in order to start pre season on time. No talks today so scratch the 1st pre season game.

5 games would have been played by May 28th so that's looking like those will be gone in a few days as well.


Strong possibility of no pre season games 2 years in a row.

Tick, tick, tick.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2022, 08:05:10 PM by Blue In BC » Logged

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theaardvark
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« Reply #192 on: May 17, 2022, 08:36:18 PM »

OK, just looked at the CBA, and the entry contract is for NAT players... they are required to sign for 2 + 1 at $65 plus a modest optional bonus based on draft round selection.   If, for instance, Laurent Duvernay-Tardif flamed out in the NFL and came north in 2021, he would have to sign a 2+1 year deal at $65k max, plus $12.5k bonuses for the first 2 years (based on being drafted in the 3rd round).  Now, with his NFL experience, he would be free to sign whatever deal he wanted, with Calgary, his drafted team.


https://media.cfldb.ca/documents/cfl-cflpa-collective-agreement-2019.pdf


Section 9
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the paw
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« Reply #193 on: May 17, 2022, 08:39:03 PM »

The union has no right to see the books of private owners. Doesn't matter if they are making millions or not. The leagues isn't intended as a non profit organization. All indications are that making any money is not easy on a yearly basis. The reno's to BC Place in 2010-2011 were about $630M. While that was absurd and the stadium is used for other functions, stadium costs and maintenance fall in some part to each team.

I haven't heard anyone comment on whether the players were required to vote on the offer or whether that happened.

Dead silence at the moment including nothing about new discussions planned.

The union has a right to see the books if they negotiate a CBA with the provision included.  In fact, the old CBA requires clubs to provide financial stmts to he CFLPA (some audited, some not) although that was more for SMS verification than examining revenues.

But if owners want to base SMS raises on revenue growth, they have to be willing to have those revenues verified.  Otherwise its a meaningless provision.  If the owners don't want to provide financial transparency, then they should shorten the deal length and commit to more substantial concrete additions to cap.
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Blue In BC
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« Reply #194 on: May 17, 2022, 09:26:18 PM »

The union has a right to see the books if they negotiate a CBA with the provision included.  In fact, the old CBA requires clubs to provide financial stmts to he CFLPA (some audited, some not) although that was more for SMS verification than examining revenues.

But if owners want to base SMS raises on revenue growth, they have to be willing to have those revenues verified.  Otherwise its a meaningless provision.  If the owners don't want to provide financial transparency, then they should shorten the deal length and commit to more substantial concrete additions to cap.

The weren't basing SMS raises on revenue growth. They offered $2.1M per team over 7 years. The CFLPA essentially wanted revenue / profit sharing info too as far as I can tell. It's been discussed that you can't have a share of the good times if you aren't willing to take a cut in bad times. Nor should you have that compete access which is not what they had previously. You even said so.

Also, sports players or not, players are employees and not partners as they would have you believe. The why has been spoken about several times.  They've taken the position that the CFL lies to them in their financial statements.

As you said that provision was more about verification for SMS than looking at revenues owned by private business.

I'll ask again. How much did each team have to spend to pay coaches and their admin in 2020 ( Coaching SMS was $2.2M IIRC ). How much player SMS was spent in signing bonus's going into the expected 2020 season? The list of losses goes on and on in 2020.



« Last Edit: May 17, 2022, 09:31:14 PM by Blue In BC » Logged

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