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Author Topic: CBA negotiations  (Read 15896 times)
theaardvark
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« Reply #120 on: May 15, 2022, 07:43:16 PM »

Improved health care/disability needs to be part of any CBA, regardless padded practices.  Why the CFL balks at this, I have no idea.  Its one thing I will hold their feet to the fire on.

Revenue sharing, sure, if you're willing to take a pay cut when revenue isn't there.  But no, sounds like they want extra if one team makes money, even if the rest lose.  and they want the "billionaires" that own some of the teams to reach into their deep pockets.  I have no respect for that part of the negotiations.

The league has offered a seat on the board of the new partnership with that marketing group.  So they can see what is going on and be involved in the decisions.  Totally unexpected and benefits the CFLPA.

SMS and min salary increases, even if the league loses money.  How can the PA not love this? 

We know the privately owned by bilionaires teams are not cash cows, by any stretch.  Were it not for a billionaire's kindness (thank you Mr. Braley), we'd have 7 teams right now, and who knows where MTL would be if not for another angel investor.   The league is broke, and getting broker.  The concessions the CFLPA has gotten in this contract offer seem optomistic at best, and they are crazy to let it pass. 

If healthcare and such are the concern, the CFL should introduce a comprehensive healthcare package, like I had outlined previously, and take the SMS increases and min salary increases back. 

Again, $$$ should not be an issue. I would love to pay players more, but they are getting at least "what they are worth", and probably more, as a component in the product that is the CFL.   The fact that the league is turning away hundreds of players each TC says the wages are fair, and that there are plenty of players willing to come play for that.   So, if they players are gonna die on the "get what we deserve" thinking the league is flush with cash, I have zero respect for that.

Will the product be inferior if the pay structure decreases / remains the same?  I don't think it will appreciably change.  Can the league bring in scabs and bust the union?  I m certain that would be an easy task.  Anyone remember "The Replacements"?  Except in this case, many of the replacements may actually be better players... its the last thing I'd like to see happen, but the union has to understand it does not have the bargaining power the NHL. MLB, NFL, MLS PA's do.  These leagues employ the best of the best.  The CFL is the best of the rest, and there are tonnes of players out there in that category. 

No business wants to union bust... no team wants to field replacement players.  Just saying, the players have to realize that is a real possibility in this instance.  I bet every team could field a competitive roster of players willing to take $50k for the season, most teams will have a list they can comb right now and assemble that. 







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Sir Blue and Gold
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« Reply #121 on: May 15, 2022, 08:23:05 PM »

Lol -- Aardvark. "Every team could field a competive roster of players willing to play for $50,000"

That's crazy even for you.

For starters, teams could not find one quality starting national each let alone seven that isn't already under contract.

Playing with a field of brand new QBs who are willing to come to Canada for $50,000 and learn the game in two weeks? You'd be watching a game worse than American high school. Speaking of which, that's about what you could expect from replacement imports too.

It's fine if you want to be on team owners but you cannot possibly believe what you're saying or you are just so incredibly incorrect in your assessment it borders on delusion.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2022, 08:25:07 PM by Sir Blue and Gold » Logged
theaardvark
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« Reply #122 on: May 15, 2022, 09:07:31 PM »

Lol -- Aardvark. "Every team could field a competive roster of players willing to play for $50,000"

That's crazy even for you.

For starters, teams could not find one quality starting national each let alone seven that isn't already under contract.

Playing with a field of brand new QBs who are willing to come to Canada for $50,000 and learn the game in two weeks? You'd be watching a game worse than American high school. Speaking of which, that's about what you could expect from replacement imports too.

It's fine if you want to be on team owners but you cannot possibly believe what you're saying or you are just so incredibly incorrect in your assessment it borders on delusion.

Of course I'm not talking a ratio based, CFL roster rules team... I'm talking purely scabs / replacement players.  Put out a cattle call promising $50 for the season, with $10k up front, and you will have have a line out the door... yes, it will be horrible football, akin to USFL, and might end up with a cigarette smoking englishman kicking field goals and a convict running back, but hey... it'll be football.

My point wasn't that the CFL *should* do it, but rather that they *could* do it.  The CFLPA is no where near as strong in their bargaining position, and bargaining to put the league deeper into the red is stupid. 
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Sir Blue and Gold
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« Reply #123 on: May 15, 2022, 09:20:32 PM »

Of course I'm not talking a ratio based, CFL roster rules team... I'm talking purely scabs / replacement players.  Put out a cattle call promising $50 for the season, with $10k up front, and you will have have a line out the door... yes, it will be horrible football, akin to USFL, and might end up with a cigarette smoking englishman kicking field goals and a convict running back, but hey... it'll be football.

My point wasn't that the CFL *should* do it, but rather that they *could* do it.  The CFLPA is no where near as strong in their bargaining position, and bargaining to put the league deeper into the red is stupid. 

I'm sure fans and sponsors will love that! It would also certainly help with the legitimacy optics of the league too. Definitely a solid option, Aardvark.
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Jesse
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« Reply #124 on: May 15, 2022, 10:37:37 PM »

Adding back a few (or even many) padded practices just takes us back to the way we were a few short years ago.  Why this would be a big problem is beyond me.

1. Play quality and scoring went down precisely when they reduced/dropped padded practice.  Not proof of causation, but it's easy to put 2 & 2 together.  It would seem the league agrees as they did a complete 180 on this now that they are emphasizing scoring.

2. 2021 had the worst rash of achilles and other injuries the CFL has ever seen in TC.  Zero padded practices.  I doubt the return of padded practice will affect injury rate compared to 2021.  In other words, if you want better health coverage, it should be its own demand, not tied to pads or not.

CFL needs pads back.


At the start of this, the PA said injuries had reduced by 31%
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Mikerahl
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« Reply #125 on: May 15, 2022, 11:14:26 PM »

Scabs are prohibited by labour laws in BC and Quebec so right away you are down two teams.

That is one of many problems with that 'solution'
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3rdand1.5
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« Reply #126 on: May 16, 2022, 01:33:00 AM »

All this is fine and dandy.....but riddle me this, isn't half the league (+/-) losing money and facing drops in attendance numbers?



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the paw
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« Reply #127 on: May 16, 2022, 02:07:08 AM »

All this is fine and dandy.....but riddle me this, isn't half the league (+/-) losing money and facing drops in attendance numbers?





We only know the finances of the three community owned teams (which pre Covid were all making modest surpluses.  The private owners want to claim losees, but don't want to open the books to verify either their historical losses or even the actual revenues going forward. 

The league also has the new joint venture tied to gambling revenues.  They are offering a board seat, but including that as revenue in a revenue-sharing formula used to set SMS would be better.

The players aren't asking for all the increases up front, but if they base them on revenue growth, they have a right to ask for audits.  Remember, this is a league whose history of private owners includes Nelson Skalbania, Bruce McNall, Murray Pezim and the Gliebermans.
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DM83
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« Reply #128 on: May 16, 2022, 04:42:27 AM »

Oh you mean thieves!
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Blue Bombers and Fans


« Reply #129 on: May 16, 2022, 05:18:07 AM »

Negotiations are necessary but the bottom line is the league cannot afford a prolonged strike after coming off a cancelled season and a shortened season in consecutive seasons. A further loss of revenue and fan interest at this stage would be hard to recover from.  They have to settle and very quickly or the league may not recover.
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Blue In BC
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« Reply #130 on: May 16, 2022, 12:17:00 PM »

Improved health care/disability needs to be part of any CBA, regardless padded practices.  Why the CFL balks at this, I have no idea.  Its one thing I will hold their feet to the fire on.

Revenue sharing, sure, if you're willing to take a pay cut when revenue isn't there.  But no, sounds like they want extra if one team makes money, even if the rest lose.  and they want the "billionaires" that own some of the teams to reach into their deep pockets.  I have no respect for that part of the negotiations.

The league has offered a seat on the board of the new partnership with that marketing group.  So they can see what is going on and be involved in the decisions.  Totally unexpected and benefits the CFLPA.

SMS and min salary increases, even if the league loses money.  How can the PA not love this? 

We know the privately owned by bilionaires teams are not cash cows, by any stretch.  Were it not for a billionaire's kindness (thank you Mr. Braley), we'd have 7 teams right now, and who knows where MTL would be if not for another angel investor.   The league is broke, and getting broker.  The concessions the CFLPA has gotten in this contract offer seem optomistic at best, and they are crazy to let it pass. 

If healthcare and such are the concern, the CFL should introduce a comprehensive healthcare package, like I had outlined previously, and take the SMS increases and min salary increases back. 

Again, $$$ should not be an issue. I would love to pay players more, but they are getting at least "what they are worth", and probably more, as a component in the product that is the CFL.   The fact that the league is turning away hundreds of players each TC says the wages are fair, and that there are plenty of players willing to come play for that.   So, if they players are gonna die on the "get what we deserve" thinking the league is flush with cash, I have zero respect for that.

Will the product be inferior if the pay structure decreases / remains the same?  I don't think it will appreciably change.  Can the league bring in scabs and bust the union?  I m certain that would be an easy task.  Anyone remember "The Replacements"?  Except in this case, many of the replacements may actually be better players... its the last thing I'd like to see happen, but the union has to understand it does not have the bargaining power the NHL. MLB, NFL, MLS PA's do.  These leagues employ the best of the best.  The CFL is the best of the rest, and there are tonnes of players out there in that category. 

No business wants to union bust... no team wants to field replacement players.  Just saying, the players have to realize that is a real possibility in this instance.  I bet every team could field a competitive roster of players willing to take $50k for the season, most teams will have a list they can comb right now and assemble that. 








What exactly do you think needs improving in health care? It never hurts to improve health care but I don't see exactly what your sticking point is at the moment. The league has a number of season ending injuries for players that end up on 6 game IR at full pay. Those include achilles, broken legs or torn up knees. Some of those could be career ending and create some movement or pain issues for life.

Long term damage from concussions is difficult to assess or point directly to cognitive issues.

It's not unusual for a rookie to get cut in TC after a hamstring or generally minor injury that prevents him from continuing. Short term sports injury. The team has medical staff to deal with any of those issues.

Give me an example of any player any team that didn't get treated well medically to better explain your point of view.



« Last Edit: May 16, 2022, 12:27:58 PM by Blue In BC » Logged

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theaardvark
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« Reply #131 on: May 16, 2022, 12:48:57 PM »

What exactly do you think needs improving in health care? It never hurts to improve health care but I don't see exactly what your sticking point is at the moment. The league has a number of season ending injuries for players that end up on 6 game IR at full pay. Those include achilles, broken legs or torn up knees. Some of those could be career ending and create some movement or pain issues for life.

Long term damage from concussions is difficult to assess or point directly to cognitive issues.

It's not unusual for a rookie to get cut in TC after a hamstring or generally minor injury that prevents him from continuing. Short term sports injury. The team has medical staff to deal with any of those issues.

Give me an example of any player any team that didn't get treated well medically to better explain your point of view.





Johnathon Hefney

https://winnipegsun.com/sports/football/cfl/winnipeg-bluebombers/former-bombers-teammates-lament-severe-injury-that-led-jonathan-hefney-down-road-to-prison-sentence-for-cocaine-trafficking

We see players cut every TC due to injury, how are they cared for?  Once the season starts, and you get injured, there is the IR, but not in TC.

My concern is that heath care in the US is horrible, worse if you don't have insurance.  If we wanted to truly show we cared about the players, we would proposed extending their heath care after their careers, by a set amount (say 5 years), with a rehab rider that may even extend further, or at least for a number of years based on seasons played.

They want health coverage due to potential injury from padded practices.  Big sticking point apparently.  This fills that, and more. 

We have no idea
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Sir Blue and Gold
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« Reply #132 on: May 16, 2022, 12:52:07 PM »

What exactly do you think needs improving in health care? It never hurts to improve health care but I don't see exactly what your sticking point is at the moment. The league has a number of season ending injuries for players that end up on 6 game IR at full pay. Those include achilles, broken legs or torn up knees. Some of those could be career ending and create some movement or pain issues for life.

Long term damage from concussions is difficult to assess or point directly to cognitive issues.

It's not unusual for a rookie to get cut in TC after a hamstring or generally minor injury that prevents him from continuing. Short term sports injury. The team has medical staff to deal with any of those issues.

Give me an example of any player any team that didn't get treated well medically to better explain your point of view.






Jonathan Hefney is the most egregious recent example.

I do need to clarify and apologize on one point with you. I incorrectly stated that medical player insurance only covers one year. That was true Hefney played and was injured in 2017 but is now three years (two were added in the last round of negotations) and the current offer from the league would increase it to four years. So it's not as bad as I was making it out before and three or four years of comprehensive medical coverage is a lot easier to stomach than one. Sorry about that!
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Blue In BC
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« Reply #133 on: May 16, 2022, 01:12:37 PM »

Johnathon Hefney

https://winnipegsun.com/sports/football/cfl/winnipeg-bluebombers/former-bombers-teammates-lament-severe-injury-that-led-jonathan-hefney-down-road-to-prison-sentence-for-cocaine-trafficking

We see players cut every TC due to injury, how are they cared for?  Once the season starts, and you get injured, there is the IR, but not in TC.

My concern is that heath care in the US is horrible, worse if you don't have insurance.  If we wanted to truly show we cared about the players, we would proposed extending their heath care after their careers, by a set amount (say 5 years), with a rehab rider that may even extend further, or at least for a number of years based on seasons played.

They want health coverage due to potential injury from padded practices.  Big sticking point apparently.  This fills that, and more. 

We have no idea

Horrible situation but you also mention the horrible US health care system which is true.  Fortunately this isn't something that happens often. As mentioned the CFL has extended the coverage to 4 years in the current deal. Hefney was more the exception than the rule regarding long term injury.  Leading to a life of drug trafficking I can't respond to.

I don't know the CFL can be held to account for the lack of US health care. Like any type of insurance doesn't some of the responsibility fall to the player to insure himself?

How much does this kind of insurance cost?

It was already mentioned how many extensive injuries happened in TC without padded practices. The veterans were protected as far as I can tell. The injuries to rookies being released might be worth a further discussion. 

This is not something that has not just come up in the 100 year existence of the CFL.

« Last Edit: May 16, 2022, 01:15:47 PM by Blue In BC » Logged

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Jesse
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« Reply #134 on: May 16, 2022, 01:40:08 PM »

Horrible situation but you also mention the horrible US health care system which is true.  Fortunately this isn't something that happens often. As mentioned the CFL has extended the coverage to 4 years in the current deal. Hefney was more the exception than the rule regarding long term injury.  Leading to a life of drug trafficking I can't respond to.

I don't know the CFL can be held to account for the lack of US health care. Like any type of insurance doesn't some of the responsibility fall to the player to insure himself?

How much does this kind of insurance cost?

It was already mentioned how many extensive injuries happened in TC without padded practices. The veterans were protected as far as I can tell. The injuries to rookies being released might be worth a further discussion. 

This is not something that has not just come up in the 100 year existence of the CFL.



I wonder how often a player gets injured in TC, cut, and left to his own devices.

But we simply don't hear about it because they're not an all-star like Hefney.
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