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Author Topic: CBA negotiations  (Read 12459 times)
theaardvark
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« Reply #15 on: May 06, 2022, 07:07:56 PM »

I really hope, in the end, neither group is 100% happy with the deal, because that means it is fair. 

I hope that it is 10 years, I hope that ratios do not get obliterated, I hope padded practice returns, and that post injury/career health protocols improve.

I hope the health care includes free health care for one additional year for every year completed, and cost sharing for health care for 5 years after that for those without in their post CFL careers.  THAT is something worth fighting for.

As to SMS levels and revenue sharing.  This is a league on a budget to start with, and coming off some very hard times.  Suggesting they have money to spare or that someone is getting rich off the players is crazy talk.  Do the players want a flat pay scale like the USFL?  Or do they want to opportunity to earn what they are worth?  As to non-TSN revenue, any work stoppage puts a big dent in that, both lost revenue from any gates that are missed, and lost fans.  Less of something is more than lots of nothing. 

This is not the NFL, but it is also not the USFL/XFL.  It is tradition, it is history and it is exciting.  The greatest game on a grid. 

As to ratios, yes, they maintain the Canadian part of the game... ratio at 7 is about right... might adjust the DI's a bit, but ratios make this league unique and they make GM'ing a real job.  EE will be a good example of that this year...  we have seen the benefits of a long term GM and coach building our NAT talent pool...

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Throw Long Bannatyne
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« Reply #16 on: May 06, 2022, 07:35:24 PM »

The loss of the ratio will sacrifice the main competitive advantage that the CFL has, and the gradual diluting of the ratio any further that it already has been, will just make it a lingering death.  

Its a real short term view, based on some misguided belief that a faster, higher scoring game with gimmicky rules will hold fan interest more than national identity.  It's deluded thinking and not based on the evidence of many years.

Think, if you will, about what the extinguishing of the ratio would have meant to earlier eras.  Ask yourself the following questions:

1.  Statistically, James Murphy was a better and more productive receiver than Joe Poplawski.  I love James Murphy and the fact that he settled in Winnipeg and made a home here.  But does anyone truly believe that he enjoys a higher regard with the fans than Joe Pop?

2.  Without the ratio, I doubt anyone would have invested the time and effort to convert a defensive lineman from Div 2 Dickinson State into an offensive lineman.  Chris Walby went on to become one of the best OTs in the history of the CFL, but without the ratio he probably doesn't get to start his storied career.

3.  Does anyone really think Nic Demski would have been able to stick around to develop after his first 3 years in the league?  He is a top notch talent now, but without the ratio, he most likely goes the way of Charles Nelson or a thousand other receivers who were moved on from after a slow start.  

4.  Rick House put up 8000 yards as a CFL receiver.  He was buried on special teams until he developed.  No way he has that career without the ratio.

5.  Estimate the percentage of fan discussion dedicated to ratio management, projecting the 7 starters, the draft, which player may "go home" in free agency etc.  Probably at least half of the off-season discussion revolves around that.  Heck, with no ratio, is there even a reason to have a Canadian draft?  Probably not.  

6.  Do Kyle Walters and Mike O'Shea become football executives/coaches at the professional level without the ratio?  Probably not, as neither of them would likely have had a professional football career without it.  Without that entry into the league, both those guys are probably selling insurance or real estate.  

I could go on, but I'm either preaching to the choir or talking past people who don't accept the premise.  But I think it is an absolute disgrace that Wade Miller is leading a negotiating committee that takes this stance.  If he has convinced himself that fans want to relinquish the leagues national identity so we can get a couple more NFL cuts who can run a 4.4 40, then he has forgotten where he came from.  

If this CBA guts the ratio, that finishes me.  I kept my season tickets last year, even though I didn't attend a single game, because I wanted to support the team.  A game that relegates Canadian content to special team duty has no interest for me.  If I want to watch all Americans, I'll watch the best Americans.  Giving up the "game day event" isn't a huge sacrifice for me, I go to 9 games in person a year, but I watch about 60.  I can convert my ticket spend into a speciality channel that will give me as much NFL content as I can handle.  Maybe I'm a relic, but I think if the CFL believes that they can replace a fan like me with some Gen-Z kid who wants to bet the over-under on sacks from his phone, I think they are going to be disappointed.  

Good post, problem is the CFL is asking people who don't currently follow, support or care about the league what changes they would like to see made to make the game more appealing to them.  Even if the CFL follows up with these changes, the disinterested people who offered suggestions are unlikely to step up and support the league anyway, they will probably keep on ignoring it, just as they always have.  Meanwhile the long-term supporters will be pissed-off with the arbitrary rules changes, it's very close a no-win situation.
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Throw Long Bannatyne
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« Reply #17 on: May 06, 2022, 07:43:23 PM »

And nobody wants to read a rehashing of this so I won't respond again but my rebuttal would be:

1. James Murphy and Joe Pop are entirely irrelevant to the game today. Even more so to future fans who need to come on board. Who cares who you think should be in higher regard (I don't mean that rudely).

2. It may have not worked out for Walby but it would have worked out for someone else. A star is a star and every football team can celebrate talented offensive lineman.

3. Demski probably would not have developed now, but someone else would have and they would be a recognizable name/face. If we're playing the 'what if' game 'what if' that player was even better?

4. There are plenty of players who develop into stars in all professional sports. The story of a player earning his dues is not unique to the CFL. The NFL makes entire reality shows about them and they have no ratio. But yes, if you have a deep connection with Rick House that could be alarming. New fans don't care or potential new fans don't care one wink who or what is a Rick House.

5. If eliminating the ratio made the Canadian draft irrelevant, then oh boy is that not the biggest incitement of talent I have ever seen. In addition, every single popular sports league has a TON of rumors and speculation around free agency. You absolutely do not need a country of origin rule to generate that.

6. Speculation at best. You could be right. Maybe Walters isn't a GM which would be a shame because he is good at it. However, other than that he is good at it, what else would be a loss that it wasn't 'him' specifically. Basically zero.

Your post comes across as if you don't care about the CFL's past history, is this correct?  What do you think we will be left with when they've wiped the CFL clean of all it's tradition?
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Nic16
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« Reply #18 on: May 06, 2022, 08:27:08 PM »

The CFL runs on a tight budget and is in the business to make money. And how do they do that?

The majority of the young fans don?t follow the game close enough to know how the ratio works and who is Canadian or American. All they want to know is who is good and what name & number do I put on my jersey.

So why not keep the ratio rules rather simple?

1. Add more exciting players. And unfortunately for the CFL diehards that means more Americans.

2. Drop the ratio down to 5 Canadian starters. And if you want to start more go ahead, but with no advantages.

3. Americans who remain on the same team for 2 yrs are an adopted Canadian in yr 3 - unless they leave the team.

4. Americans in the league for 5 yrs on different teams are an adopted Canadian in yr 6.

5. Split backups 50/50.

6. Specialty positions - Kicker, Punter and LS can be whomever you want with zero effect to the ratio.

7. Get rid of the territorial pick in the draft.

8. Supplemental drafts should only take place if a player didn?t register until after the draft.

9. A rule change should be no single is awarded for a missed FG within 30 yards unless conceded by the team.

10. Punts must be conceded or go thru the back of the end zone from more than 40 yds to count as a single point.

11. Highest salary 400G

12. Entry level 70G

13. Guaranteed salary in your 5th yr but with a 2 yr max.

14. Minimum 2 yr contracts with an NFL tryout escape clause. Team retains rights.

15. Reduce the 6 game IR to 4 game IR. If player is removed early his salary counts against the cap.

Bottom line is takes the needed steps to help improve the game, fan to player connection and the overall entertainment value.
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Waffler
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« Reply #19 on: May 06, 2022, 08:54:03 PM »

A strike in preseason would surprise me. It's a part of how teams decide on final rosters It's not something you want to decide completely just in TC. It also prepares veterans for the regular season.

That gives them roughly 2 weeks to make a deal or lose preseason games. Rookie camp is what? A few days from now.They are that close? I don't see it.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2022, 09:00:55 PM by Waffler » Logged

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theaardvark
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« Reply #20 on: May 06, 2022, 09:00:45 PM »

That gives them roughly 2 weeks to make a deal. They are that close? I don't see it.

If the asks on both sides are even close to what they think they are going to get, we're not even in the same area codes.  This season has no chance of starting on time.. which is very, very sad, because they've had forever to work this out.
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Blue In BC
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« Reply #21 on: May 06, 2022, 10:25:00 PM »

That gives them roughly 2 weeks to make a deal or lose preseason games. Rookie camp is what? A few days from now.They are that close? I don't see it.

It would be suicide to lose the pre season 2 years in a row. OTOH, they could delay a few weeks and have play offs later as in 2022. Not what I want to see but could be an end result.
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Blue In BC
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« Reply #22 on: May 06, 2022, 10:31:01 PM »

The CFL runs on a tight budget and is in the business to make money. And how do they do that?

The majority of the young fans don?t follow the game close enough to know how the ratio works and who is Canadian or American. All they want to know is who is good and what name & number do I put on my jersey.

So why not keep the ratio rules rather simple?

1. Add more exciting players. And unfortunately for the CFL diehards that means more Americans.

2. Drop the ratio down to 5 Canadian starters. And if you want to start more go ahead, but with no advantages.

3. Americans who remain on the same team for 2 yrs are an adopted Canadian in yr 3 - unless they leave the team.

4. Americans in the league for 5 yrs on different teams are an adopted Canadian in yr 6.

5. Split backups 50/50.

6. Specialty positions - Kicker, Punter and LS can be whomever you want with zero effect to the ratio.

7. Get rid of the territorial pick in the draft.

8. Supplemental drafts should only take place if a player didn?t register until after the draft.

9. A rule change should be no single is awarded for a missed FG within 30 yards unless conceded by the team.

10. Punts must be conceded or go thru the back of the end zone from more than 40 yds to count as a single point.

11. Highest salary 400G

12. Entry level 70G

13. Guaranteed salary in your 5th yr but with a 2 yr max.

14. Minimum 2 yr contracts with an NFL tryout escape clause. Team retains rights.

15. Reduce the 6 game IR to 4 game IR. If player is removed early his salary counts against the cap.

Bottom line is takes the needed steps to help improve the game, fan to player connection and the overall entertainment value.

Some good ideas and some are not.

Creating more loopholes as in items 3, 4,5  and 6 to water down what a NI means or how it qualifies is a cop out. Change the ratio, change the number starting or on the roster are fair game.

This is the KISS principle. The CFL already has too many designations and work around rules to the ratio.

You say make the ratio rules simple than you suggest otherwise.

Suggestion # 11 might be illegal. Raising the minimum only works if you can afford it. It doesn't prevent players from leaving. Lawler, Richardson and Whitehead to name a few.

The rouge is an important aspect of the Canadian game. Leave that suggestion off the table.

EDIT: Bombers on our current roster that have been with the team discussed in suggestion 3: Bryant, Hardrick, Bailey, Collaros, Alexander, Bighill, Jefferson, Jeffcoat, Wilson, Maston, Rose, Taylor and Grant

That's 13 players at the moment that suggestion # 3 would convert to NI's on the roster. Even if you kept 5 NI starters that would eliminate nearly all Canadian back ups.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2022, 03:19:19 PM by Blue In BC » Logged

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« Reply #23 on: May 08, 2022, 04:40:18 AM »

Scary?  This may be just in reference to the ratio issue but it is clearly important to the players.

Adam Bighill
@Bighill44
Bob, the CFLPA negotiating team works on behalf of the members, who are the ones that actually vote to approve a CBA. There is a reason why we don?t have a deal yet. There?s nothing there we can recommend our members even consider.
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« Reply #24 on: May 08, 2022, 11:43:23 AM »

Your post comes across as if you don't care about the CFL's past history, is this correct?  What do you think we will be left with when they've wiped the CFL clean of all it's tradition?

Tradition can and will always be celebrated by most businesses in some way or another. Lots of advantages to that. What doesn't and shouldn't last is persisting with the status quo for the sake of tradition itself. What worked 20, 30 and 50 years ago may not work now. The current results are the results.

Again, not going to rehash it until next off season when we're all bored and looking for something to chat about but since you asked directly I wanted to briefly respond.
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Lincoln Locomotive
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« Reply #25 on: May 08, 2022, 01:57:01 PM »

Strong arm tactics?   The owner/player relationship, which was slowly improving,  is in serious jeopardy according to this article.   

https://3downnation.com/2022/05/07/the-cfl-is-threatening-to-fundamentally-change-canadian-football-cflpa-leadership-sounds-alarm-over-leagues-cba-proposal-negotiation-tactics/
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Blue In BC
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« Reply #26 on: May 08, 2022, 03:16:05 PM »

I doubt a total elimination of the ratio will come to pass. We're not getting details of exactly what the proposal looks like over a 10 year span. A shorter agreement with some reductions to the ratio might be the end result. Any change to the ratio would need to be gradual.

Can't imagine any 10 year deal comes together and no increase in the SMS over that time is not reasonable.

It appears Wednesday and the start of TC will be tipping points. Pandora's box more or less. Once it's open it will be difficult to close.

I've already commented earlier in this thread string what I'd like to see as the end result over a 3 year deal.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2022, 04:59:28 PM by Blue In BC » Logged

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theaardvark
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« Reply #27 on: May 08, 2022, 07:18:25 PM »

I get the "initial offer" part of negotiating, and I've done it myself many times, knowing that there is no way the opening offer will be considered, let alone accepted.  They are meant to create an ability to come down from the opening, and meet in the middle.

The CFL did open at a ridiculous level, and in retrospect, probably did so in error, not realizing it would end up causing this backlash.

I don't think the CFLPA did themselves any favours by releasing details of that initial offer.  They have created an adversarial aspect that was un-necessary.

So both parties need to restart this at a lower level of aggression. 

We know that there will not be a blanket guaranteed contract capability, but there should be some option for longer term players to be allowed to negotiate a fully guaranteed contract (not just the veteran cutdown assurance).  Say, 5 years CFL or 3 with the same team, and you can have the option of asking the team for a fully guaranteed contract.  But only in resigning with your current team...

We know there will never be an elimination of ratio / Nat roster spots.  Instead of a 10 year plan to zero, maybe a reduction...

We know there will not be a zero SMS increase over 10 years.  Just as we know there will never be true revenue sharing (players would probably shortchange themselves if that happened with the CFL revenue streams) 

Padded practices are part of football, as are injuries.  If injuries are a concern re:padded practice, address that.  I am all for increasing the health care / rehab portion of the CBA.  I really think that players need to be protected, especially INT players, who may not have any health care after the game.  There should be provisions for extending health care after a career is over, and for as long as they are rehabbing injuries sustained when under contract.  THAT is what the players deserve, not more cash.  Life insurance, health insurance, educational support... if the CFLPA cared about its members, it would be demanding these items for ALL, not just a way to make more cash.

I really want the "we want the pay we deserve" argument to end, because this is not MLB, NHL, NBA and especially not the NFL.  Players currently are compensated better than any other non-NFL football league.  And the CFL has had a few very, very lean years that are going to be tough to recover from.   

With the financial transparency opening up, if the CFLPA takes a more reasonable stance, and the CFL comes down off the ledge they have walked out onto, there is a deal here to be made where all parties can survive, and none be 100% happy.

The CFL did not do themselves any favours starting with what they did.  But the CFLPA did not help their cause running to the media.  Its time for both parties to put on their big boy pants and make a deal.
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theaardvark
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« Reply #28 on: May 08, 2022, 07:42:44 PM »

OK, talk about unnecessarily inflammatory...

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FSQitKiXMAAixh-?format=jpg&name=4096x4096

We have instructed all veteran quarterbacks not to attend voluntary sessions held this week and to align with the decisions our Association will make regarding training camps.   The directive has been given across the league with the exception of one club, where there is a concern by our association over the pattern of retribution toward players by team management"

What the fizzie?  Singling out a team for a "pattern of retribution" without mentioning which team?  Or referencing grievances? 

One way to instantly lose 1/9th of the potential support votes you need to ratify an agreement.

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Blue In BC
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« Reply #29 on: May 08, 2022, 09:12:58 PM »

Why is the CFLPA negotiating in the media?  That leads to nothing good.

Starting QB's not attending voluntary sessions is not unusual or that big a deal.
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