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Author Topic: CBA negotiations  (Read 18513 times)
Blue In BC
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« Reply #60 on: May 13, 2022, 03:00:29 PM »

I like this.  Might give teams cap room to convince quality globals like Hansen who take regulars reps to stick around for the long term.

Having non cap SMS for global players flies in the face of declining revenues and wanting to have no SMS increases for a new 10 year deal. Globals directly take the place of Canadians on the roster. That flies in the face of pro ratio people wanting to protect Canadians on the roster.

I'm tired of all the loopholes created that just add to the confusion. I never did figure out what the " American Veteran Ratio " really meant. It seems that is another exception the CFL wants to eliminate after its 1st year.

I agree that players should be considered as Nationals or Non Nationals. 

« Last Edit: May 13, 2022, 03:23:48 PM by Blue In BC » Logged

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Sir Blue and Gold
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« Reply #61 on: May 13, 2022, 03:09:24 PM »

There is no chance that any part of player salaries fall outside the SMS. If they wanted to pay players more, they would just raise the cap. The players who are voting for the deal will look to enrich themselves so they aren't going to vote for 'globals can get paid more and outside the cap but we don't'. It makes no sense.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2022, 03:11:24 PM by Sir Blue and Gold » Logged
Blue In BC
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« Reply #62 on: May 13, 2022, 03:15:48 PM »

There is no chance that any part of player salaries fall outside the SMS. If they wanted to pay players more, they would just raise the cap. The players who are voting for the deal will look to enrich themselves so they aren't going to vote for 'globals can get paid more and outside the cap but we don't'. It makes no sense.

The global players both on the AR and PR have been paid outside of the SMS. The level of pay was a lower ELC as well.  Whether that is proposed to continue in the new agreement is unknown.
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theaardvark
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« Reply #63 on: May 13, 2022, 03:17:16 PM »

Having non cap SMS for global players flies in the face of declining revenues and wanting to have no SMS increases for a new 10 year deal. Globals directly take the place of Canadians on the roster. That flies in the face of pro ratio people wanting to protect Canadians on the roster.



There is no chance that any part of player salaries fall outside the SMS. If they wanted to pay players more, they would just raise the cap. The players who are voting for the deal will look to enrich themselves so they aren't going to vote for 'globals can get paid more and outside the cap but we don't'. It makes no sense.

The global player initiative is limited and tiny.  The non-SMS portion is designed to separate their development cycle from the mainstream players.  The non-SMS nature of their salary is already established.  The key is what to do with them after they have developed.  My idea was to keep them in that niche after development, but upon reflection, I think a better way of addressing the issue is by allowing a Global player to renounce his special status after 2 years on a roster, and be treated as an INT, and allowed to win a spot and salary commensurate with his abilities, regardless of status.  

2 years of a "free ride" should be more than enough to get them to the make or break moment.
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Sir Blue and Gold
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« Reply #64 on: May 13, 2022, 03:24:20 PM »

Whether a young man is a football player or not, he has to pay rent and expenses wherever he is living. $50K usd for a 22 - 26 year old male is not bad. Let him tell his sob story to a young person working in McDonalds in Alabama for $8 and hour. In the US, the minimum wage often falls below $10 / hour range. Only a few hit the $15 / hour mark. All of those are essentially below the poverty level.

The football player can get another job during the off season to increase his income.

Players in their 1st contact mostly get the CFL minimum but it can increase quite quickly in their next contact. Those that become starters are likely to earn $90K+ by year 3. The outcry to get them " decent " pay and benefits is over the top. I know many young people working 3 jobs for minimum wage. I know someone that worked for the Bay for 20+ years and was never a " full time " employee getting benefits.

So cry me a river.

While I agree the CFL can only pay so much based on what they bring in (Edmonton posted its third consecutive loss this year, losing $1.1M) your rationale is terrible and your lack of compassion is at 'old man screams at clouds' levels of bad.

For one, we shouldn't compare a professional athlete to a front line service worker. For two, just because the US has an abhorrently low working-poor wage for some front line service worker positions (in some states) does not strengthen your argument or win you any favours. The vast majority of CFL players come to the league with degrees from great colleges and are delaying the start of their career to pursue the game and provide us with entertainment. So show some contrition and put down your onion belt. It would be great if we could pay them more. They certainly deserve it based on their level of commitment to get to this point and the toll it takes on their bodies, at a bare minimum.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2022, 03:26:05 PM by Sir Blue and Gold » Logged
theaardvark
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« Reply #65 on: May 13, 2022, 03:51:33 PM »

What surprises me is the debate over the fact that CFL salaries are too high or too low.  The league has an SMS, based on revenue, that prevents haves/havenots.  Without NFL revenue sharing (or NFL revenue, for that matter), this is the system that works. 

That said, you can't raise SMS without raising revenue.  And for those suggesting a revenue split where the players get x% of total revenue, like 50/50, economies of scale factor in.  Overhead (stadium, management, facilities, travel, etc) for an NFL team as a % of total revenue is tiny compared to CFL.  So while the NFL or NBA could offer such a split, the CFL would go broke doing so.  And trying to find that % number would actually be embarrassing.

Regardless what the SMS is, and want ELC's pay, and what the minimum salary is, there will be a line up of players waiting to sign a CFL contract.  If they dropped the wages to $1500/game flat across the board regardless position, I have no doubt we could find 700 players to take the field.  Would one of those players be Bo Levi, or Willie Jefferson?   Probably not.  But this is why the present system works. 

Every fan, every player, wishes there were more $$$ for salaries.  And every CFL beancounter wishes there were too.  But the reality is, there are only so many beans to count.  No one is getting rich off the CFL.  Players or owners.  So painting the CFL as cheap on salaries is patently false.  Some team might be able to pay more, but most are struggling to pay current salaries. 

Sure, comparing CFL to NFL, CFL salaries are a joke.  When on NFL player makes more than the 700 players in the CFL combined, you can take any comparisons and throw them away.  But compared to AFL, XFL, USFL, NCAA, the CFL pays a fair wage, and allows "stars" to develop and make very good money, as well as get noticed by the NFL and get those opportunities.  Only a handful get those shots, but none of the rest are forced to accept contracts offered, and all get paid at the end of the day their agreed upon amounts. 

Fighting for a few extra duckets today at the expense of killing 700 CFLPA jobs is shortsighted.   Fight the fight you can win, go after benefits, healthcare, retirement, education... the CFLPA needs to serve the majority of their members who are not $100k+ earners. 
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Blue In BC
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« Reply #66 on: May 13, 2022, 03:53:11 PM »

While I agree the CFL can only pay so much based on what they bring in (Edmonton posted its third consecutive loss this year, losing $1.1M) your rationale is terrible and your lack of compassion is at 'old man screams at clouds' levels of bad.

For one, we shouldn't compare a professional athlete to a front line service worker. For two, just because the US has an abhorrently low working-poor wage for some front line service worker positions (in some states) does not strengthen your argument or win you any favours. The vast majority of CFL players come to the league with degrees from great colleges and are delaying the start of their career to pursue the game and provide us with entertainment. So show some contrition and put down your onion belt. It would be great if we could pay them more. They certainly deserve it based on their level of commitment to get to this point and the toll it takes on their bodies, at a bare minimum.


Poverty exists in Canada as well. Minimum wage in BC raised to just over $15 / hour. That's below the poverty level.

Nearly five million people in Canada ? that?s one out of every seven individuals ? currently live in poverty. Poverty is a widespread issue across the country and the world, but vulnerable groups such as people living with disabilities, single parents, elderly individuals, youth, and racialized communities are more susceptible. The effects of poverty can be expressed in different aspects of a person?s life, including food security, health, and housing. The following statistics show the different manifestations of poverty in Canada.

Football players are well paid. The fact they are professional athletes is their choice and deserves no special consideration.  Lots of jobs take severe physical and mental tolls on people in many industries.

As I said, players going into their 3rd season make more and can rapidly increase to substantial money. Take Oliveria or Augustine as examples who move from $64K to $90K in their new deals.  That's the reward for the risk they take to chase the dream. How about Lawler getting $300K in his 3rd year in the CFL.

Your comment about " old man that screams at clouds " is absurd and not founded.  My rationale is fine.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2022, 03:59:47 PM by Blue In BC » Logged

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Blue In BC
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« Reply #67 on: May 13, 2022, 03:59:11 PM »

What surprises me is the debate over the fact that CFL salaries are too high or too low.  The league has an SMS, based on revenue, that prevents haves/havenots.  Without NFL revenue sharing (or NFL revenue, for that matter), this is the system that works. 

That said, you can't raise SMS without raising revenue.  And for those suggesting a revenue split where the players get x% of total revenue, like 50/50, economies of scale factor in.  Overhead (stadium, management, facilities, travel, etc) for an NFL team as a % of total revenue is tiny compared to CFL.  So while the NFL or NBA could offer such a split, the CFL would go broke doing so.  And trying to find that % number would actually be embarrassing.

Regardless what the SMS is, and want ELC's pay, and what the minimum salary is, there will be a line up of players waiting to sign a CFL contract.  If they dropped the wages to $1500/game flat across the board regardless position, I have no doubt we could find 700 players to take the field.  Would one of those players be Bo Levi, or Willie Jefferson?   Probably not.  But this is why the present system works. 

Every fan, every player, wishes there were more $$$ for salaries.  And every CFL beancounter wishes there were too.  But the reality is, there are only so many beans to count.  No one is getting rich off the CFL.  Players or owners.  So painting the CFL as cheap on salaries is patently false.  Some team might be able to pay more, but most are struggling to pay current salaries. 

Sure, comparing CFL to NFL, CFL salaries are a joke.  When on NFL player makes more than the 700 players in the CFL combined, you can take any comparisons and throw them away.  But compared to AFL, XFL, USFL, NCAA, the CFL pays a fair wage, and allows "stars" to develop and make very good money, as well as get noticed by the NFL and get those opportunities.  Only a handful get those shots, but none of the rest are forced to accept contracts offered, and all get paid at the end of the day their agreed upon amounts. 

Fighting for a few extra duckets today at the expense of killing 700 CFLPA jobs is shortsighted.   Fight the fight you can win, go after benefits, healthcare, retirement, education... the CFLPA needs to serve the majority of their members who are not $100k+ earners. 

Even the NFL is unfair. The players at the bottom get $700K while those at the top get $45M. The level of any SMS is tied to revenue but only partially relevant. Obviously the bottom end of NFL salaries is significant but its the scale from top to bottom that makes no sense. Most pro sports have similar issues.

In a perfect world the minimum salaries are raised but the top end is clipped lower within a given SMS in any league. Unfortunately that's not what happens in a free market.

Just for the sake of argument, a new SMS could raise the minimum in 2022 without actually increasing the amount of the SMS. That forces the top salaries down to keep the spend within the SMS.

Where you draw that line is debatable as to a given view on how much you think what ELC players should earn. IIRC even players that are not starters get scaled increases going into year 3? The downside it that those players may lose their jobs to the new 1st year players.

« Last Edit: May 13, 2022, 04:06:59 PM by Blue In BC » Logged

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Sir Blue and Gold
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« Reply #68 on: May 13, 2022, 04:04:59 PM »

Poverty exists in Canada as well. Minimum wage in BC raised to just over $15 / hour. That's below the poverty level.

Nearly five million people in Canada ? that?s one out of every seven individuals ? currently live in poverty. Poverty is a widespread issue across the country and the world, but vulnerable groups such as people living with disabilities, single parents, elderly individuals, youth, and racialized communities are more susceptible. The effects of poverty can be expressed in different aspects of a person?s life, including food security, health, and housing. The following statistics show the different manifestations of poverty in Canada.

Football players are well paid. The fact they are professional athletes is their choice and deserves no special consideration.  Lots of jobs take severe physical and mental tolls on people in many industries.

As I said, players going into their 3rd season make more and can rapidly increase to substantial money. Take Oliveria or Augustine as examples who move from $64K to $90K in their new deals.  That's the reward for the risk they take to chase the dream. How about Lawler getting $300K in his 3rd year in the CFL.

Your comment about " old man that screams at clouds " is absurd and not founded.

The entire thesis of your first post on this matter was that young Americans who come to Canada for our entertainment and take home extremely modest compensation after conversion and tax should be lucky because you know McDonalds workers in Alabama make less, and other people you know work 'three jobs' or have to take even more drastic measures to make a living. You even used the ol' 'cry me a river' because someone else has got it 'worse'. It is an out of touch position likely reinforced by your own privilege.

 I agree with you that the CFL can't afford to pay any more. That doesn't mean that it should sit well with anyone. I've never met a McDonalds worker who got CTE or lost the use of their arm permenately as a result of working there (Jonathan Hefney)
« Last Edit: May 13, 2022, 04:10:20 PM by Sir Blue and Gold » Logged
Blue In BC
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« Reply #69 on: May 13, 2022, 04:19:19 PM »

The entire thesis of your first post on this matter was that young Americans who come to Canada for our entertainment and take home extremely modest compensation after conversation and tax should be lucky because you know McDonalds workers in Alabama make less, and other people you know work 'three jobs' or have to take even more drastic measures to make a living. You even used the ol' 'cry me a river' because someone else has got it 'worse'.

It is an out of touch position likely reinforced by your own privilege. I agree with you that the CFL can't afford to pay any more. That doesn't mean that it should sit well with anyone. I've never met a McDonalds working who got CTE or lost the use of their arm permenately as a result of working there (Jonathan Hefney)

Ever hear of Workers Compensation? Workers in construction and manufacturing jobs lose their lives or suffer permanent injuries all too often. While they may not get CTE, some will end up unable to ever work again. Police, firemen, military, healthcare workers all can be severely injured or killed.

I recall working for a candy company in the mid 70's. First week on the job a worker cut 3 fingers on off her hand. In my 1st job the person I replaced lost an arm in a large printing press accident.

One of my staff nearly killed another employee by careless operation of a forklift.

After a lifetime of work I remember many life altering accidents to friends and co-workers.

In fact I've worked for a very large company where deaths occurred at work. Paint vapour explosion in a truck manufacturing plant paint booth in the mid 1980's. IIRC 4 people died.

Ask around. I would think somebody you know, knows somebody that has had a serious life changing injury at work.





« Last Edit: May 13, 2022, 04:32:52 PM by Blue In BC » Logged

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Sir Blue and Gold
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« Reply #70 on: May 13, 2022, 04:30:53 PM »

Ever hear of Workers Compensation? Workers in construction and manufacturing jobs lose their lives or suffer permanent injuries all too often. While they may not get CTE, some will end up unable to ever work again. Police, firemen, military, healthcare workers all can be severely injured or killed.

I recall working for a candy company in the mid 70's. First week on the job a worker cut 3 fingers on off her hand. In my 1st job the person I replaced lost an arm in a large printing press accident.

One of my staff nearly killed another employee by careless operation of a forklift.

After a lifetime of work I remember many life altering accidents to friends and co-workers.

In fact I've worked for a very large company where deaths occurred at work. Paint vapour explosion in a truck manufacturing plant paint booth in the mid 1980's. IIRC 4 people died.

Ask around. I would think somebody you know, knows somebody that has has a serious life changing injury at work.





...CFL players don't get 'workers compensation'. Just because you had to walk to school uphill both ways is no reason why someone else should too. When you were growing up you could buy a brand new house in Winnipeg for $65,000. Times change.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2022, 04:32:32 PM by Sir Blue and Gold » Logged
Blue In BC
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« Reply #71 on: May 13, 2022, 04:41:00 PM »

...CFL players don't get 'workers compensation'. Just because you had to walk to school uphill both ways is no reason why someone else should too. When you were growing up you could buy a brand new house in Winnipeg for $65,000. Times change.

Times change? Nothing like deflecting the discussion.

Injured players get their full salary on the IR. That may be as an ELC salary or a veteran salary like Collaros in 2019 after 3 plays. Teams have medical and rehab people to assist those players during and post season.

Could benefits be better? Certainly but just listen to the news. Numerous strikes going on in BC at the moment. Workers wanting the same thing. More money and better benefits.
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Sir Blue and Gold
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« Reply #72 on: May 13, 2022, 04:42:43 PM »

Times change? Nothing like deflecting the discussion.

Injured players get their full salary on the IR. That may be as an ELC salary or a veteran salary like Collaros in 2019 after 3 plays. Teams have medical and rehab people to assist those players during and post season.

Could benefits be better? Certainly but just listen to the news. Numerous strikes going on in BC at the moment. Workers wanting the same thing. More money and better benefits.

Deflecting? You are out to lunch man!
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Blue In BC
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« Reply #73 on: May 13, 2022, 04:44:01 PM »

Deflecting? You are out to lunch man!

You pay. I pay for the beer.
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theaardvark
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« Reply #74 on: May 13, 2022, 05:07:51 PM »

Yes, top to bottom, salaries in any league make no sense.  It has come back a little in QB's in the CFL, although Lawler's contact last year shows the position players moving up a bit into that range.

Minimum salaries in the NFL change, PR eligibility changes... it cycles through players that are working their way into a lineup, vs. the fringe players that just hang on..  once you start having to pay them "veteran's" salary, they become a lot less interesting than younger players with potential. 

Do we end up with ELC/min salary and min vet salary at different levels?  Do we have to have a matrix of PR + IR + AR games = Min Vet Salary, and if that is less than 24 any contract can be at ELC rate? 



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