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Author Topic: Official Game Day Thread - 108th Grey Cup Game December 12, 2021  (Read 19549 times)
dd
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« Reply #405 on: December 20, 2021, 03:21:20 AM »

Hey Oskee, you must be down losing a close one like that, especially at home and after 22 years, we all know about losing in the grey cup and how heartbreaking it is, and we went through our drought here as well.

You have a great coach and a good nucleus of players, I m sure retaining them will be a challenge but it?s obvious your coach loves his players, so I m sure things will work out for you guys.stay steel city strong!!
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TecnoGenius
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« Reply #406 on: December 24, 2021, 08:33:11 AM »

Finished the first rewatch of the GC.  A couple of general points for possible discussion:

1. Our DTs had a heck of a game and were pivotal.  That's a good thing as our DE's were much more muted than in 2019.  It was clear HAM gameplanned on stopping the 2 J's.  That opened up more space for Stove/Fatboi/Sayles to do their thing.  Both Fatboi and Stove were great at shedding blocks to get the runners in the A/B gap.  And they got push up the middle to keep Masoli uncomfortable.  If we had weaker DTs, this game may not have turned out as it did.

2. HAM clearly learned from 2019 and all the 2 J's trouble.  Masoli, especially, was getting the ball out in under 2.7s nearly every play.  There was none of the way-too-long ball-holding that Evans did in that last GC.  They were often packing extra blockers on the J's.  HAM actually ran a fair number of 6 & 7 man OL/blockers, even when they didn't show it, they'd slot them in on pre-snap motion or bring them across at the snap.  The 2 HAM O-tackles were vastly improved over 2019.  Like night & day.  Our blitzes, which we sent a fair number, were basically fruitless.

3. HAM going max-pro led to a lot of coverage sacks and checkdowns / throwaways, especially later in the game.  They fared much better when playing stock OL, with maybe a RB blocking then sneaking out.  I'm not sure why they stuck with this set.  It really wasn't working for them.  They have such a strong receiving corps, I would have just let all 5 loose most of the time.  Very strange, as they did almost no max-pro in 2019; of course, that didn't work for them either.  Cheesy Cheesy

4. HAM D was running a lot of stunts and blitzes.  Must have been tough for Zach's reads, and could be part of why he didn't get into a groove for 3 quarters.  Even though they didn't get many sack stats, they were forcing checkdowns and throwaways way more than our O is used to.  Our OL was getting fooled and beat much more than usual.  Though they did improve a fair bit after halftime so someone was making adjustments and someone was letting them know they needed to improve.

5. HAM's Don Jackson run game was almost exclusively outside the tackles.  They fooled Willy a bunch of times when he was the only contain man.  Our aggressive pass rush worked against us here, along with wrong play action read guesses and just bad luck.  When HAM could clear out or block up the only LB on that side (usually Wilson), they often made hay.  That was really the only part of the HAM O game that was super successful.  I give them a ton of credit coming up with a great run plan that often had our near-top run D on the ropes.  And that they did it with such a sparse frequency, yet methodical and exquisitely timed, made it all the more impressive.  Even with a performing Don, I'm not sure I agree with the choice to not play STE even once.  Maybe STE on his way out of HAM?
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TecnoGenius
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« Reply #407 on: December 27, 2021, 01:31:55 AM »

Demski: He was really dinged up in the 4th Q when he had to have help off the field.  He came back on a few plays later and just ran a decoy route and when he tried to cut, his body just kind of slumped over.  He didn't play at all after that, and O'Leary#84 actually got a few live GC game reps!  He was open a couple of times too, because HAM D just ignored him.

That's why when Demski won MVC he looked pretty subdued.  He was in major pain.

I wonder if he broke/bruised a rib, or some muscle tear in his core.  I'm sure he'll be fine for next year.  But it's a good thing this didn't happen earlier in the game!  We needed that little "can't catch me" TD of his.  After all those useless sweeps and screens for negative yards, I was happy to see Demski make the key TD.

Just thought I'd document it here, as it may have been overlooked while watching live.
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Blue In BC
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« Reply #408 on: December 27, 2021, 01:31:47 PM »

Demski: He was really dinged up in the 4th Q when he had to have help off the field.  He came back on a few plays later and just ran a decoy route and when he tried to cut, his body just kind of slumped over.  He didn't play at all after that, and O'Leary#84 actually got a few live GC game reps!  He was open a couple of times too, because HAM D just ignored him.

That's why when Demski won MVC he looked pretty subdued.  He was in major pain.

I wonder if he broke/bruised a rib, or some muscle tear in his core.  I'm sure he'll be fine for next year.  But it's a good thing this didn't happen earlier in the game!  We needed that little "can't catch me" TD of his.  After all those useless sweeps and screens for negative yards, I was happy to see Demski make the key TD.

Just thought I'd document it here, as it may have been overlooked while watching live.


Why do you need to jump to these conclusions?
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dd
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« Reply #409 on: December 27, 2021, 04:10:33 PM »

Wildly speculative, much like the spiel about the career ending injury to Harris. Too much time on a cold winters day
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theaardvark
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« Reply #410 on: December 27, 2021, 05:35:37 PM »

The "Why not Speedy B returning" question kinda got me thinking.  He hasn't really been a threat in a while, maybe from even before last GC.  Occasional flashes, but not the terror we once feared.  Not sure if Reinbold is on that same page.  Sure, veteran hands and brain ready for the kick with the wind, but Banks has been Crown Royal XO of late, expensive and goes down too easy. 

Ham needed field position, they needed to get into scoring range.  If they get nailed deep... now, did he get the "If you have to field it in the endzone, don't try to run it out" speech, and not realize that they meant deep in the endzone, not just barely into the endzone.... because our endzones are deeep.  And sure, there were 15-20 yards of clear field ahead of him when he downed his knee, but he was at a standing start, and the Bombers excellent cover team was coming downhill full steam.  I can't imagine what runs through a players mind when they see Miller, Hansen and company bearing down on them...

I'm not 100% sure Ham gets into FG range in time without that head start, and they have to like their chances in OT, at home in a game they have been dominating most of the time. 

Does Orlando bring back Reinold?  Probably take more than on GC miscall to end their relationship...   
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TecnoGenius
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« Reply #411 on: December 28, 2021, 03:13:30 AM »

Why do you need to jump to these conclusions?

Because I have eyes.

And which conclusion precisely am I "jumping" to that you are taking umbrage with??

Did you rewatch the play I am referencing where he can't even stand up straight anymore?  Didn't think so.  Do I really have to make a little video of it for you?  Demski busted up something in his torso, of that I have no doubt.  I missed it on first watch, as did you, obviously.  I did not miss it on second watch.

You're welcome.
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TecnoGenius
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« Reply #412 on: December 28, 2021, 03:29:53 AM »

The "Why not Speedy B returning" question kinda got me thinking.  He hasn't really been a threat in a while, maybe from even before last GC.  Occasional flashes, but not the terror we once feared.  Not sure if Reinbold is on that same page.  Sure, veteran hands and brain ready for the kick with the wind, but Banks has been Crown Royal XO of late, expensive and goes down too easy.
[...]
Does Orlando bring back Reinold?  Probably take more than on GC miscall to end their relationship...   

I agree.  It's clear "Speedy B" might have to be renamed to "UsedTaBeSpeedy B" because he's not nearly as fast as he used to be.  Old age, or always beat up, who knows precisely why.  He was less effective than our #3/#4 read Bailey all year.

He had that one nice juke-out run in the GC for his TD, but then again, so did Demski, and Demski's was arguably more impressive because he had less free space.

Our D tracked down Speedy a number of times, and not even our fastest guys.  Speedy never busted one on us with his speed.

Here's the thing, though: HAM was putting their #2 and #3 and #4 returner options back there all game after Papi got hurt.  I mean, Adeleke?  Really?  Ungerer?  Pfft.  And T.White botching things multiple times?

And they don't put Speedy back there for a 2014 instant-win scenario?  That means they have no faith in him at all.  Or they know he'll be broken like a China doll upon tackle.  Either way, 1:30 left and they don't go for it with him?  Says a lot.  I really don't see Speedy B being back with HAM next year, or any other team.  Dude is too proud to take a big pay cut that his performance demands.

Reinbold is probably safe.  He didn't lose the game.  If they really gave White the choice, or worse, told him to bring it out and he didn't, then it's White screwup.  Now, you could argue Reinbold screwed up by putting White back there at all, but I'm sure coach O had a say in that as well.

It's funny, upon rewatch you realize HAM lost it due to a surfeit of tiny errors: penalties at the wrong time, multiple rouges, little brain farts in D coverage, weird personnel choices.  If HAM had been more disciplined to avoid even a couple of those things, in all likelihood they win that game.  It's so odd that a team could be that prepared vs 2019, and play that well, yet blow it all due to coaches' oversight.  It's also a testament to the Bombers preparedness in the same.
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DM83
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« Reply #413 on: December 28, 2021, 07:42:13 AM »

Techno,

I find some of your points sensationalistic and opinion. I read your posts only sometimes as I think they lack credibility,

The diff between your posts and others  seem to be they lack a foundation or basis of. Fact..  All of us. Speculate but because a guy is dinged, does not necessarily mean much. I mean if ya get kicked in the shin,  or winded, it feels like death.

Stating an opinion as. Some sort,of knowledgeable comment is fun, but we should all try and offer. The asks of facts, of some sort.. 
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TecnoGenius
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« Reply #414 on: December 28, 2021, 09:32:37 AM »

Techno,

I find some of your points sensationalistic and opinion. I read your posts only sometimes as I think they lack credibility,

The diff between your posts and others  seem to be they lack a foundation or basis of. Fact..  All of us. Speculate but because a guy is dinged, does not necessarily mean much. I mean if ya get kicked in the shin,  or winded, it feels like death.

Stating an opinion as. Some sort,of knowledgeable comment is fun, but we should all try and offer. The asks of facts, of some sort.. 

Thanks DM for the constructive reply.  I guess the problem in my post then was my guess as to the injury?  "I wonder if he broke/bruised a rib, or some muscle tear in his core."

I was merely throwing out some ideas as to what can cause the crazy reaction Demski had on the field.  I am totally open to other ideas that can cause such a reaction.  I listed the ones I could think of, and they might be good guesses.  Bruised rib is very common in football.  I'm not quite sure how this is sensationalistic?

But I would really hope that before saying "Tecno is speculative / jumping to conclusions" that interested people would really check the clip I'm referencing.  They might also speculate and jump to conclusions after seeing the clip!

I noticed very few people are interested in going back and/or taking a "deep dive".  Doesn't mean what I'm saying isn't or can't be true.  I bet a) no one complaining bothered to find the clip on their PVR, b) no one complaining saw what I'm talking about live (I didn't either).  I was truly shocked when I saw Demski keel over when he came back on the field.  Comparing this (bruised rib) to my AH33 ACL season-ender speculation is hardly the same thing.  I never once said I get them all right, I just document what I see and make my best informed guess to spark conversation.

P.S. I found the clip, it's in OT right as Zach throws that TD to Adams.  Demski slips out of blocking duty to the LoS after barely touching the HAM pass rusher and he instantly kneels down in the most bizarre way I've never seen before, then staggers and bobs a few times with hands on/near stomach/hip.  He does not celebrate with the guys and Adams in the EZ when everyone else does.  He's running right off the field in the background.  He does not return for the 2pt, OLO takes his place (OLO could have scored too, wide open, and OL was impenetrable, BTW).
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TecnoGenius
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« Reply #415 on: December 28, 2021, 09:50:37 AM »

Another topic: Was the OT hold on Fatboi that moved HAM back 10 instead of forward 13 a good call?  HAM fans would probably say no.

I know many already discussed it here.  There were mixed feelings.  But watching it a few times again, especially the excellent EZ camera angle slow-mo, leaves me wondering.

There's 2 officials standing behind the QB.  In the EZ angle Proulx is to the left (right of the QB).  Some other ref is to the right, and it's this other ref that threw most of the backfield flags that game (like HTTF).  Proulx was keeping his nylon in his pants for the most part, except I think on that RTP on Willie (Proulx's fave is RTP, he loves that call!).

So if you think it's a legit penalty, what precisely makes it more so than some of the stuff they let ride earlier in the game?  We all know "there's holding every play".  So what pushed this one over the top?  The big complaint on Riderfans and ticats forum is "WPG did that hold all night" (of course), but I rewatched with a focus on the lines and I'm not sure we got away with any that egregious.

I personally think for sure it was a hold, but it makes me a bit uncomfortable that the refs weren't more like 2019 when they really really just "let them play".  I guess this could be this year's "2019 Kalinic hold on Willie" equivalent.  Though, funny thing, I think this hold was more a hold than the one on Willie.

The reason this hold is so important is going to 1st and 20 is basically statistically dooming HAM to losing.  How many 1st & 20s are made in OT against a good D...  We almost certainly win anyhow even without this hold (TD+2pt match is also never accomplished), so it's a tiny bit of a bummer that HAM can point to some iffy call as the reason they lost.  (P.S. penalties WPG 4-40, HAM 8-65... be more disciplined HAM.)
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theaardvark
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« Reply #416 on: December 28, 2021, 01:13:26 PM »

I agree.  It's clear "Speedy B" might have to be renamed to "UsedTaBeSpeedy B" because he's not nearly as fast as he used to be.  Old age, or always beat up, who knows precisely why.  He was less effective than our #3/#4 read Bailey all year.

He had that one nice juke-out run in the GC for his TD, but then again, so did Demski, and Demski's was arguably more impressive because he had less free space.

Our D tracked down Speedy a number of times, and not even our fastest guys.  Speedy never busted one on us with his speed.

Here's the thing, though: HAM was putting their #2 and #3 and #4 returner options back there all game after Papi got hurt.  I mean, Adeleke?  Really?  Ungerer?  Pfft.  And T.White botching things multiple times?

And they don't put Speedy back there for a 2014 instant-win scenario?  That means they have no faith in him at all.  Or they know he'll be broken like a China doll upon tackle.  Either way, 1:30 left and they don't go for it with him?  Says a lot.  I really don't see Speedy B being back with HAM next year, or any other team.  Dude is too proud to take a big pay cut that his performance demands.

Reinbold is probably safe.  He didn't lose the game.  If they really gave White the choice, or worse, told him to bring it out and he didn't, then it's White screwup.  Now, you could argue Reinbold screwed up by putting White back there at all, but I'm sure coach O had a say in that as well.

It's funny, upon rewatch you realize HAM lost it due to a surfeit of tiny errors: penalties at the wrong time, multiple rouges, little brain farts in D coverage, weird personnel choices.  If HAM had been more disciplined to avoid even a couple of those things, in all likelihood they win that game.  It's so odd that a team could be that prepared vs 2019, and play that well, yet blow it all due to coaches' oversight.  It's also a testament to the Bombers preparedness in the same.


Reinbold put him there.  His decision.  If he told him not to bring it out, his decision.

If a player was told to bring it out and didn't, that is on the coach as well.  A well coached player doesn't question what he's told to do... especially in a situation he isn't familiar with. 

Reinbold did lose them the game in a way... but the ultimate responsibility is on Steinhauer...
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Blue In BC
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« Reply #417 on: December 28, 2021, 01:28:49 PM »

Because I have eyes.

And which conclusion precisely am I "jumping" to that you are taking umbrage with??

Did you rewatch the play I am referencing where he can't even stand up straight anymore?  Didn't think so.  Do I really have to make a little video of it for you?  Demski busted up something in his torso, of that I have no doubt.  I missed it on first watch, as did you, obviously.  I did not miss it on second watch.

You're welcome.



We all have eyes. You're the only one wildly speculating.  Go ahead send your video. Is there at least one other poster that remotely agrees with your speculation?

EDIT: Just re-watched the end of the game. Demski gets tackled on a short run and has about 5 players land on him with the ball underneath his body. At 2:28 he walks off the field on his own steam. He runs routes and is on the field for every down in OT. Collaros throws him a very low pass at his feet which is incomplete.

Demski runs, blocks and or runs routes and doesn't appear to show any sort of limitation.

O'Shea does not, would not send in any player with a severe injury. Nor would the team medical staff allow that to happen.

So yeah. Pure speculation with squat to substantiate your view. Having the wind knocked out of you by landing on the ball with weight in the cold after 58 minutes of football. Nothing to see here.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2021, 04:31:59 PM by Blue In BC » Logged

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Throw Long Bannatyne
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« Reply #418 on: December 28, 2021, 05:02:12 PM »


We all have eyes. You're the only one wildly speculating.  Go ahead send your video. Is there at least one other poster that remotely agrees with your speculation?

EDIT: Just re-watched the end of the game. Demski gets tackled on a short run and has about 5 players land on him with the ball underneath his body. At 2:28 he walks off the field on his own steam. He runs routes and is on the field for every down in OT. Collaros throws him a very low pass at his feet which is incomplete.

Demski runs, blocks and or runs routes and doesn't appear to show any sort of limitation.

O'Shea does not, would not send in any player with a severe injury. Nor would the team medical staff allow that to happen.

So yeah. Pure speculation with squat to substantiate your view. Having the wind knocked out of you by landing on the ball with weight in the cold after 58 minutes of football. Nothing to see here.

Are you forgetting the game Strev. played in late 2019 were he was hobbling so badly he could hardly walk?  It was painful to watch and a little embarrassing that O'Shea allowed him to continue to play.
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Pigskin
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« Reply #419 on: December 28, 2021, 05:47:49 PM »

Are you forgetting the game Strev. played in late 2019 were he was hobbling so badly he could hardly walk?  It was painful to watch and a little embarrassing that O'Shea allowed him to continue to play.

There is no way MOS was stopping Strev. playing the GC. Just watch the interview with Sara O after the game. She asks him did you ever think you were not going to play and he says,  NO.

ND10 was injured late in the 4th. quarter. He had the wind knocked out of him. If he told MOS he was fine, MOS lets him back into the game. If he had a serious injury there is no way he's going back in.

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