Winnipeg Jets Discussion - 2021/2022 Season

[Jesse]

In the three games you quote, no one was a +.  No one.

Player     G   A   +/-
MA22       0    1    0
JH12       0    0     0
NE27       1    1    -1
AL17       0   1     -1
KC81      1    1    -2
ZS12       0    0    -2
NS88      0    0    -2
NP4        0      2    -3
BD5        0     0    -3
PS25       1      1    -4
PLD80     1      1    -4
MB36      0      0    -7
BW26      1      0    -8

I have been a MS55 and BW26 fan in the past, and I do not discount that they have talent / ability.  I just think if we are going to make changes, if we are going to have a completely new coaching staff, now is the ideal time to turn the keys over to the new guard. 

Start fresh.  Because if they stumble out of the blocks next season... what do you do?

Whether you like it or not, we function as a draft and develop team.

MS is the epitome of that philosophy who was drafted, developed, and signed to a long-term, team friendly contract.

Whatever his warts are, he's the best option we have or will have.

He and BW are not tradeable.

[theaardvark]

Whether you like it or not, we function as a draft and develop team.

MS is the epitome of that philosophy who was drafted, developed, and signed to a long-term, team friendly contract.

Whatever his warts are, he's the best option we have or will have.

He and BW are not tradeable.

Yes, you are correct, we draft and develop, mainly because due to our market, we are a hard sell to a lot of players to come here voluntarily. 

Yes, MS is a great example of draft and develop, and is on a long term team friendly contract.  And he does produce points.  But there are big holes in his game that people seem content to overlook due to point production.  Is he the best option we have?  Is he better than PLD80?  I really don't think so.  And with only 1 #1C spot available, which would you rather keep?  With CP91 champing at the bit, and AL17 in slot 3 and a large number of prospects / veterans for the 4th line, isn't it is good roster management to move an asset at its most valuable when you can?

And BW26 is not moveable on his own, without retaining a lot of his current deal, which is why the package makes sense.  Move the younger guy with the attractive contract along with the older guy... and giving them an opportunity to move to a new team that is looking for that final move to make them a contender might be attractive enough for the duo to shelve their NM/NT clauses.   Getting back a young winger and some DP/prospects opens up the vault for PLD80 and maybe a vet FA that fits well. 

Draft and develop only works if you can move on from parts that didn't work out... we traded Kane, Trouba and Laine because they were not a good fit or going to sign here long term.  I think if you move MS55 and BW26, PLD80 signs long term.  And we start the new iteration of the Jets.   Who doesn't want a younger, faster, more defensively responsible team?  Sure, we have CH37, but what are the win/loss stats when we score less than 2 goals? 

BW26 just fell on his sword for the club's dismal performance this year... but had no response for how to change it, other than he hopes there are other guys in the room that want to do better too.  Sure, kudos for admitting his role, but is it possible now to remove his "C" and keep him in the room?  Isn't it kinder to just move him along to a new opportunity, where he can assume a support role he really can't here? 

Some pundits are saying Lowry is the right guy to coach next year.  But, he came out and said they are running with their present lineup for the rest of the year, and not "auditioning" players.  I'm sorry, but that disqualifies him in my eyes right there.  Once you are eliminated, the most important thing you can do is get your young players some NHL level ice time and give them a chance to develop.  Draft and develop, right?  Here are 4 free games of development where you can give these young guys a chance to show they belong, that they deserve a chance at the next step.  What possible good comes from playing BW26, PS25, NS88, DD2, DT21, BD5... he's sitting CH37.. why stop there...



 

[Jockitch]

Terrific start, 2-0,  with finish on minimal chances while Calmly is playing great in goal

[Jockitch]

and reality sets in, Com can?t stop everything and the Jets lose again

[Pigskin]

Yes, EC had another very good game tonight.

[theaardvark]

Comrie stood on his head... and I think the guys in front started to take that for granted...

Not sure how much BW26's presser factored into the great start, but it sure let up quick.


Not counting the empty netter:

BW26 0g, 0A, -1 2PIM 1SOG
PLD80 1G, 1A, +/-0 2PIM (no PP, co-incedental minors) 2SG
KC81 1G, 0A  +/-0 0PIM  3SOG

[blue_or_die]

Silver lining lesson learned this year is that Comrie is a very capable backup. We literally gave up on him in the past but we drafted and developed him into a quality goalie I think. No one expected anything from him yet he impressed. Happy to have him around on a more permanent basis.

[blue_gold_84]

Yes, you are correct, we draft and develop, mainly because due to our market, we are a hard sell to a lot of players to come here voluntarily. 

Yes, MS is a great example of draft and develop, and is on a long term team friendly contract.  And he does produce points.  But there are big holes in his game that people seem content to overlook due to point production.  Is he the best option we have?  Is he better than PLD80?  I really don't think so.  And with only 1 #1C spot available, which would you rather keep?  With CP91 champing at the bit, and AL17 in slot 3 and a large number of prospects / veterans for the 4th line, isn't it is good roster management to move an asset at its most valuable when you can?

And BW26 is not moveable on his own, without retaining a lot of his current deal, which is why the package makes sense.  Move the younger guy with the attractive contract along with the older guy... and giving them an opportunity to move to a new team that is looking for that final move to make them a contender might be attractive enough for the duo to shelve their NM/NT clauses.   Getting back a young winger and some DP/prospects opens up the vault for PLD80 and maybe a vet FA that fits well. 

Draft and develop only works if you can move on from parts that didn't work out... we traded Kane, Trouba and Laine because they were not a good fit or going to sign here long term.  I think if you move MS55 and BW26, PLD80 signs long term.  And we start the new iteration of the Jets.   Who doesn't want a younger, faster, more defensively responsible team?  Sure, we have CH37, but what are the win/loss stats when we score less than 2 goals? 

BW26 just fell on his sword for the club's dismal performance this year... but had no response for how to change it, other than he hopes there are other guys in the room that want to do better too.  Sure, kudos for admitting his role, but is it possible now to remove his "C" and keep him in the room?  Isn't it kinder to just move him along to a new opportunity, where he can assume a support role he really can't here? 

Some pundits are saying Lowry is the right guy to coach next year.  But, he came out and said they are running with their present lineup for the rest of the year, and not "auditioning" players.  I'm sorry, but that disqualifies him in my eyes right there.  Once you are eliminated, the most important thing you can do is get your young players some NHL level ice time and give them a chance to develop.  Draft and develop, right?  Here are 4 free games of development where you can give these young guys a chance to show they belong, that they deserve a chance at the next step.  What possible good comes from playing BW26, PS25, NS88, DD2, DT21, BD5... he's sitting CH37.. why stop there...  

The above commentary is what an echo chamber looks like.

What I find interesting is how you listed the +/- of basically the entire team but fail to see the glaringly obvious trend or how the team's issues go beyond two players for whom you have an obvious and irrational dislike. You're either failing or refusing to see the bigger picture here and it's clouding your ability to look at the situation objectively and irrespective of several other factors that led to this season being a failure for the team.

At this moment in time, Scheifele is better than Dubois. It's not up for debate and the statistics bear out that fact: https://stathead.com/hockey/pcomp_finder.cgi?player_id2=duboipi01&player_id1=scheima01&sum=0&request=1
Even this season, Scheifele was the more productive forward. The statistics - again - bear out that fact.
You can even compare them on equal terms (first five seasons) and see Scheifele being the better player over that time:
Scheifele: 355 GP, 112 G, 174 A, 286 P, +73, 15.0 S%, 18:59 ATOI, 45.0 FO%
Dubois: 357 GP, 101 G, 136 A, 237 P, +6, 12.6 S%, 17:27 ATOI, 44.7 FO%
Also, it's not an either or in terms of which should be kept and it never was at any point. That's a false narrative you've created and it has no basis in reality.

Scheifele and Wheeler are going nowhere and your trade suggestion brimming with horrendously bad ideas to "make it work" will not happen.
Dubois re-signing has nothing to do with Scheifele or Wheeler's contracts. This is another false narrative you've created. How his re-signing shakes out is between him and management.

Wheeler holds himself accountable for the season being a failure - something a captain should do - and you still manage to crap on him. Also, it's neither his responsibility nor his place right now to tell anyone what needs to be changed. That's up to management and the organization in the off-season. Players play.
He's not losing his captaincy because the team failed to make the post-season. Imagine the optics of an organization demoting the team's captain after he struggled with injuries and getting COVID-19 but still finished 4th in team scoring.

I'm not sure what hockey pundits you follow but I've yet to come across any claiming Lowry is the right coach going forward. It's plain as day to anyone in the game he's not the answer, so you should probably find new and better pundits to follow.

Silver lining lesson learned this year is that Comrie is a very capable backup. We literally gave up on him in the past but we drafted and developed him into a quality goalie I think. No one expected anything from him yet he impressed. Happy to have him around on a more permanent basis.

Goaltending is a strength for this team right now, IMO. Hellebuyck and Comrie make a very good tandem going forward. It'd be nice to see the latter take on more games next season.

Now that the Jets are officially out, it should be time to evaluate some of the younger players and prepare for fixing the issues with the team.

[theaardvark]

Again, no irrational dislike for MS55 or BW26.  They are talented players, but have been the leadership core for this team and have dropped the ball.  Quoting MS55's stats from 5 years ago don't factor into a "what have you doe from me lately" league.

Every player's contract is related to every other players contract in some way.  If PLD80 is OK with sharing the spotlight with MS55, that's pretty dynamite, sure.  And by the time CP91 has an opportunity to shop the market, space will have opened up, no doubt.  In the meantime, we lose AC9... who is now showing what a lot of people saw in him.  Some here commented that he wasn't a #2C worth even $4mil, looks like he's gonna more than that, easily.  And be a solid #2C.

What do you do with MS55, PLD80, CP91, AL17, JH12, MB36, ME23, DG19 and CJS25?  The first three are all top 2C, #1C potential, AL17 is solid #3 who can move up when needed, and the last 5 are all capable NHL #4's who could move up as well.  From a stats point, does losing MS55's points for outweigh his points against?  There is a logic there... but the main one being:

The team has stalled, and even reverted.  We were on an upswing, and have added more talent than lost, and had diminishing results.  Changing the management and coaching, but keeping the same core (that are frustrated, even BW26 is...) is saddling the new management and coaches with a dynamic that has proven it is broken. 

The team has a lot of unselfish players, who have signed deals to stay here, including MS55... but this team is not greater than its parts right now.  Sure, "an off season" is the excuse this year, and COVID last year... what might it be next year? 

Ticket sales are bottoming out, something needs to be done to bring back excitement.  Moving MS55 and BW26, and then bringing in a new leader, maybe a Toews, as a bridge to the new guys might accomplish a lot from a marketing perspective too.  Last year, I would never have suggested trading MS55 or BW26, it would be talent and marketing suicide.  But I do not think those players have the cachet they had last year.  MS55's "identity" comment, however misunderstood, cost him followers.  This season's results are a black mark on the "C". 

I just think it is better for everyone, MS55 and BW26 included, to start fresh...

[theaardvark]

You just keep repeating the some old BS over and over and over again. Did you paste and copy this from last week.

Didn't you notice I added in marketing this time?  More reason for change?  

[Pigskin]

Didn't you notice I added in marketing this time?  More reason for change?  

Your marketing idea, is the same idea as you had last week. Trading for JT19 is a very bad idea.

[blue_gold_84]

The mental gymnastics are astonishing. They're riddled with inconsistencies and contradictions.

Again, no irrational dislike for MS55 or BW26.  They are talented players, but have been the leadership core for this team and have dropped the ball. 

You've spent the majority of the season crapping on almost every aspect of their game, peddling this absurd narrative they're the two players responsible for the team's failings, whilst making excuses for other players (Dubois, Connor, Morrissey, etc.) guilty of the same issues. There is zero objectivity in your views when you display favoritism based on nothing substantial when there is a consistent problem across the roster, regardless of who's got a letter on his jersey.

What's particularly noteworthy is how you praised Dubois for calling out his team the other night, gushing over his "leadership" qualities in doing so, but lambasted Scheifele when he made similar remarks earlier in the season, lamenting his lack of leadership in doing so. That's another self-own.

Quoting MS55's stats from 5 years ago don't factor into a "what have you doe from me lately" league.

Thanks for proving my point regarding your fanboyish bias. You've claimed Dubois is the better player (and leader) numerous times. Statistics - and your own contradiction - fly in the face of your audacious claim. By looking at cumulative statistics over a broadened time frame, you can better evaluate players when comparing them objectively. It's not rocket appliances.

And I did point out how Scheifele has been the more productive forward this season, so read it again:

At this moment in time, Scheifele is better than Dubois. It's not up for debate and the statistics bear out that fact: https://stathead.com/hockey/pcomp_finder.cgi?player_id2=duboipi01&player_id1=scheima01&sum=0&request=1
Even this season, Scheifele was the more productive forward. The statistics - again - bear out that fact.
You can even compare them on equal terms (first five seasons) and see Scheifele being the better player over that time:
Scheifele: 355 GP, 112 G, 174 A, 286 P, +73, 15.0 S%, 18:59 ATOI, 45.0 FO%
Dubois: 357 GP, 101 G, 136 A, 237 P, +6, 12.6 S%, 17:27 ATOI, 44.7 FO%
Also, it's not an either or in terms of which should be kept and it never was at any point. That's a false narrative you've created and it has no basis in reality.

It's right there in bold. But let's take a look at the numbers because, as you pointed out, what have you done for me lately:

Scheifele (https://www.hockey-reference.com/players/s/scheima01.html): 67 GP, 29 G, 41 A, 70 P (1.04 PPG), -17, 18.2 S%, 21:08 ATOI, 50.7 FO%
Dubois (https://www.hockey-reference.com/players/d/duboipi01.html): 77 GP, 27 G, 31 A, 58 P (0.75 PPG), -8, 11.9 S%, 19:01 ATOI, 47.1 FO%

The only stat in your "favour" is the +/- but we both know that's a piddly argument when you consider both are in the minus (and again speaks to a broader issue with the team itself and not just individual players). FWIW, Dubois is on pace for career season, which bodes well for him and the team, not to mention his contract aspirations. But to suggest he's better than Scheifele is patently false.

What have you done for me lately, indeed.

Every player's contract is related to every other players contract in some way.  If PLD80 is OK with sharing the spotlight with MS55, that's pretty dynamite, sure.  And by the time CP91 has an opportunity to shop the market, space will have opened up, no doubt.  In the meantime, we lose AC9... who is now showing what a lot of people saw in him.  Some here commented that he wasn't a #2C worth even $4mil, looks like he's gonna more than that, easily.  And be a solid #2C.

What do you do with MS55, PLD80, CP91, AL17, JH12, MB36, ME23, DG19 and CJS25?  The first three are all top 2C, #1C potential, AL17 is solid #3 who can move up when needed, and the last 5 are all capable NHL #4's who could move up as well.  From a stats point, does losing MS55's points for outweigh his points against?  There is a logic there... but the main one being:

The team has stalled, and even reverted.  We were on an upswing, and have added more talent than lost, and had diminishing results.  Changing the management and coaching, but keeping the same core (that are frustrated, even BW26 is...) is saddling the new management and coaches with a dynamic that has proven it is broken. 

The team has a lot of unselfish players, who have signed deals to stay here, including MS55... but this team is not greater than its parts right now.  Sure, "an off season" is the excuse this year, and COVID last year... what might it be next year? 

Ticket sales are bottoming out, something needs to be done to bring back excitement.  Moving MS55 and BW26, and then bringing in a new leader, maybe a Toews, as a bridge to the new guys might accomplish a lot from a marketing perspective too.  Last year, I would never have suggested trading MS55 or BW26, it would be talent and marketing suicide.  But I do not think those players have the cachet they had last year.  MS55's "identity" comment, however misunderstood, cost him followers.  This season's results are a black mark on the "C". 

I just think it is better for everyone, MS55 and BW26 included, to start fresh...

The only "relation" is how all the players' contracts fit into the team's salary cap. And with Scheifele, who has one of the most cap friendly deals in the entire league, his contract has no bearing on what happens with Dubois' pending free agency. It's not about "sharing a spotlight" or making baseless assumptions about prospects; it's about having a skilled top 6 with two centres leading the charge right now. Those two players address that need and the Jets are fortunate to have both going forward.

The Jets had a season riddled with COVID issues, significant injuries, postponed games, and a coaching staff whose message became stagnant, leading to inconsistent performances on the ice. But it's not like it was some abject failure where it didn't compete at all. They are projected to miss the playoffs by 10 points or, which in reality, is a difference of a handful of games going the other way. Their five-game skids in November and January are pretty glaring at the moment.
Moreover, it's not like they were a juggernaut last season, the season before, or the season before that. The same deficiencies existed, regardless of the roster. There was no upswing. You can look at the 2019 off-season and see how the loss of talent, especially on the blue line, changed the complexion of this team and the type of game it plays. That wasn't addressed until last off-season, anyway. And even then, it wasn't enough to surmount the other challenges I've already listed. To try and suggest all that's wrong with this team is due to two players is not reasonable at all, and a letter on their jersey being even less reasonable and pretty irrelevant.

Trading away two of team's top scorers doesn't make the roster better, especially if the team has to retain salary for the remainder of each player's contract in order to do so. That's not how one improves a hockey roster and it's "marketing suicide" no matter when or how you slice it. The logistics are nonsensical and the optics would reek of desperation. If anyone at TNSE made that suggestion to management, they'd be laughed out of the room and probably fired.

Trading for Toews wouldn't increase ticket sales. This isn't the CFL. In fact, it'd make the team objectively worse both in terms of roster and salary cap implications.

Your ideas were bad when you first suggested then. You know what's changed since then? Nothing.

This season's results reflect on literally everyone in the organization (management, coaches, players). That's how it works in reality and you don't adequately address widespread issues by singling out individuals. That's why Maurice resigning didn't fix anything or improve the team.

So, a full audit needs to be conducted, but I think it goes without saying the first step in addressing the failures of 2021-22 should be a new coaching staff. The team needs coaches who can implement better systems to address the deficiencies we've seen with this team going back roughly three seasons. But this pseudo-rebuild narrative is utter nonsense; the team doesn't need to be blown up.

Last thing: Copp wasn't going to re-sign here, hence his being treaded at the deadline. You should just accept that.

[theaardvark]

Players have been traded regularly because they have no place to move into, and therefore no chance of re-signing them.

Trouba, Laine, Copp...  all traded because they could not get the minutes or position they needed to stay.  Trouba, he had other reasons as well, but Laine and Copp, we moved on from two very good players because of other players on the team. 

I'm just saying, addition by subtraction, opening up opportunity for new players (that we know have the ability and potential) to achieve more by removing obstacles above them. 

And at the same time, creating a new leadership dynamic to replace the one that has failed to produce any real results.

Guaranteed to get better?  Of course not.  But will we get better with the current group?  Haven't in the last 5 years... change s good.

[Pigskin]

Players have been traded regularly because they have no place to move into, and therefore no chance of re-signing them.

Trouba, Laine, Copp...  all traded because they could not get the minutes or position they needed to stay.  Trouba, he had other reasons as well, but Laine and Copp, we moved on from two very good players because of other players on the team. 

I'm just saying, addition by subtraction, opening up opportunity for new players (that we know have the ability and potential) to achieve more by removing obstacles above them. 

And at the same time, creating a new leadership dynamic to replace the one that has failed to produce any real results.

Guaranteed to get better?  Of course not.  But will we get better with the current group?  Haven't in the last 5 years... change s good.

Copp also wants $$$$ that the Jets were not willing to pay him.

[blue_gold_84]

Players have been traded regularly because they have no place to move into, and therefore no chance of re-signing them.

Trouba, Laine, Copp...  all traded because they could not get the minutes or position they needed to stay.  Trouba, he had other reasons as well, but Laine and Copp, we moved on from two very good players because of other players on the team. 

I'm just saying, addition by subtraction, opening up opportunity for new players (that we know have the ability and potential) to achieve more by removing obstacles above them. 

And at the same time, creating a new leadership dynamic to replace the one that has failed to produce any real results.

Guaranteed to get better?  Of course not.  But will we get better with the current group?  Haven't in the last 5 years... change s good.

What good are false equivalencies to an already feeble argument rife with inconsistent points and logical fallacies? Your imaginary trade involving two players you don't like anymore has absolutely no correlation to any of those players who are no longer here, much less your revisionist history which seems like nothing more than a sad attempt to put management in a bad light (and probably Scheifele and Wheeler, too - somehow).

1. Trouba was averaging over 22 minutes per game in his final two seasons with this team. The only defenseman getting more ice time than him over that stretch was Byfuglien. Trouba never seemed interested in wanting to stay long term (which is unfortunate because he and Morrissey had solid chemistry as a pairing) and that's sometimes how it shakes out in today's NHL despite the best efforts of the team to retain that player. You can't fault management for that situation and the Jets were able to get Pionk in return.
2. Laine is an interesting situation because the full story never seemed to come to light. He wanted a top line role but struggled with consistency when the opportunities were presented. Bringing up Laine is also somewhat hilarious not only considering you're the biggest fan of who the team got in the trade but also because his being traded didn't negatively affect this team's offensive prowess (Connor has since stepped up and the powerplay has neither improved nor worsened). Cheveldayoff himself admitted last January that he opted to make the trade because getting Dubois would solidify the team down the middle, but at the price of losing a lethal winger. Again, that's sometimes how it goes, so it's a bit disingenuous to claim Laine was traded because of other players on this team. Unless you're the type to believe unfounded rumours and hearsay, but that should have no place in this discussion.
3. Copp is a pending UFA who made no indication he wanted to re-sign here past this season. His playing time steadily increased over the past few seasons and he fit his role extremely well with the Jets. He was a solid top 9 player here. Just so you know, he is averaging less ice team with the Rangers since being traded, so you're wrong to state he was moved because of other players on this team.

There are no obstacles keeping players from realizing their potential on this team and there is plenty of opportunity for the players in this organization. But feel free to substantiate your argument; I'm all ears at this point. I anticipate the details being as entertaining as those in your trade idea where the Jets would be forced to negotiate from a point of weakness, retain salary, and become considerably worse as a team. I'll say it for the last time: you don't improve a roster in the NHL by subtraction.

I won't even entertain the "new leadership dynamic" commentary, as it hinges entirely on a trade that makes absolutely no logical, rational, credible sense whatsoever. I'm also not sure what "real results" haven't been produced outside of this season. The Jets have made the playoffs the last four* seasons, winning three rounds during that time. This isn't Stanley Cup or bust; that's not realistic.

Guaranteed to get worse - immediately. Change for the sake of change alone is not good. Assumptions, what ifs, and conjecture do not change that fact.

* qualifiers in 2020

Copp also wants $$$$ that the Jets are not willing to pay him.

He's in his prime as a pending UFA and can maximize his value on the market, so the Jets would have been required to pay a premium to retain him. Same as Tanev back in 2019.