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Author Topic: Receivers  (Read 10554 times)
Austin85
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« on: August 21, 2021, 11:07:17 PM »

Our recievers our not as good as everyone thinks. Lawler average,  Demski good but injured, Bailey shouldn't be on the team, McKnight should take Bailey's spot.  Woli is under used  Adam's is our best. We need taller recievers.
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blue_or_die
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« Reply #1 on: August 21, 2021, 11:13:52 PM »

- Adams and Lawler both had very uncharacteristic drops/misses. Inexcusable but this can be cleaned up- they weren?t on today
- Demski?s versatility, speed and break-away capabilities are very valuable and noticed when absent
- Love Bailey as a person but I agree he isn?t good enough. Sorry bud.
- McKnight is is ok as a backup/fill in I guess. Haven?t seen enough
- Woli plays field side which isn?t supposed to get thrown to often. He?s very good in a limited role but you?re not going to see him get 10+ targets again. Great role player though.

Bottom line, get Demski back healthy, Adams gets the first game jitters over with, and Lawler gives his head a shake, and this core is very capable. Need to support them with a run game, too, btw.
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The Zipp
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« Reply #2 on: August 21, 2021, 11:16:20 PM »

It isn't a tallness thing - they had a bad game, it was Darvins first game since the Grey Cup.  Lawler has been very good. I thought we had a practice roster guy who was really good but injured. 

Toronto is a good team

We can win with this bunch - Demski back along with Harris...

The offensive game plan was an issue as well some really bad drops.  Darvin hangs on to the catch at the one and it may be a different game
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DM83
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« Reply #3 on: August 21, 2021, 11:16:50 PM »

Why would Mcknight be on the team. That group need something else

Where's the guy that played for BC last yr they played.  Carter?
We do need help at receiver....

Was Jefferson injured?
« Last Edit: August 21, 2021, 11:26:21 PM by ModAdmin » Logged
TBURGESS
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« Reply #4 on: August 21, 2021, 11:24:23 PM »

Demski being out was huge today.
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blue_or_die
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« Reply #5 on: August 21, 2021, 11:28:52 PM »

It isn't a tallness thing - they had a bad game, it was Darvins first game since the Grey Cup.  Lawler has been very good. I thought we had a practice roster guy who was really good but injured. 

Toronto is a good team

We can win with this bunch - Demski back along with Harris...

The offensive game plan was an issue as well some really bad drops.  Darvin hangs on to the catch at the one and it may be a different game

Ardarius Stewart. I was so excited to see him play. Unfortunate about the injury. Same with Cam Merideth (injured since like day 1 of TC and released earlier this week)
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dd
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« Reply #6 on: August 22, 2021, 12:39:46 AM »

Lets face it, having Demski and Harris out is like taking 70% of your offense away. The guys we have playing clearly aren?t capable of picking up the slack, especially in demski?s place, the dude is under appreciated. Olivera had a good first week but has been silent since then.
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DM83
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« Reply #7 on: August 22, 2021, 12:56:41 AM »

We all pretty much agree.......we need some quality receivers also.
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pjrocksmb
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« Reply #8 on: August 22, 2021, 01:41:58 AM »

One bad game and our receivers suck.  Right.

We have a good group and decent depth.

But yes they struggled today and agree we miss Demski and Harris.

Our recievers our not as good as everyone thinks. Lawler average,  Demski good but injured, Bailey shouldn't be on the team, McKnight should take Bailey's spot.  Woli is under used  Adam's is our best. We need taller recievers.
Bailey is fine.  Lawler shows signs he could be very good. Huge over simplifying asking for taller receivers. 
Why would Mcknight be on the team. That group need something else

Where's the guy that played for BC last yr they played.  Carter?
We do need help at receiver....

Was Jefferson injured?
Mcknight playing because of injury, can't write him off this early.  Looks ok for backup, let him learn before crap on him.  Carter, terrible idea,.
Lets face it, having Demski and Harris out is like taking 70% of your offense away. The guys we have playing clearly aren?t capable of picking up the slack, especially in demski?s place, the dude is under appreciated. Olivera had a good first week but has been silent since then.
70%, nope way overstated.  Yes they both key parts but they don't get 70% of plays, not even close.  Last season everyone contributed, expect same this year.  Demski and Harris are almost impossible to replace as they are both exceptional vets with specific skills and special gifts.
We all pretty much agree.......we need some quality receivers also.
Nah, we have good group that will continue to grow and develop.  Good mix of Canadians, Americans, vets and prospects.
Ardarius Stewart. I was so excited to see him play. Unfortunate about the injury. Same with Cam Merideth (injured since like day 1 of TC and released earlier this week)
Big early season setbacks

And yes give Toronto credit, they out played and out coached us and are a good club.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2021, 01:54:38 AM by pjrocksmb » Logged

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Pigskin
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« Reply #9 on: August 22, 2021, 02:32:13 AM »

Stewart is practicing now so you mite get to see him soon.
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TecnoGenius
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« Reply #10 on: August 22, 2021, 09:14:17 AM »

Bailey isn't great, but he's fine.  He made a clutch 2nd down grab before garbage time.  2 drops make him look worse than he is, but even Adams had more drops than that.

Don't forget, Bailey had a TD, beauty where he called his own play to Zach when he knew he beat coverage.  2 TDs in 2 weeks... that's not a garbage receiver.

McKnight actually looked very good in his limited action.  Breaking tackles and getting YAC on every touch.  But silent later, probably means couldn't get open; rookies never get the slick routes right away.

Adams is fine.  He's not Rogers, he doesn't climb the ladder to 11 feet like Rogers.  No way he makes that catch anytime in his career.  That's fine though, he's great at what he does.  He's awesome at beating the one defender after catch to go get the TD.

Lawler had a bad day.  He'll fix that.  I guarantee it.

Hey, what's the common aspect here: Zach.  He was pressed all night and later on he was really zipping those balls!  He was also not on target sometimes, especially in H1.  Quite a few were just behind rather than just in front of crossers.  Those were dropped.

That said, Zach stayed composed and almost pulled off a comeback in garbage time.  But the D was too gassed.  Should have onside kicked even though it's against the book.  That D wasn't going to stop a JV team late in the 4th.
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DM83
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« Reply #11 on: August 22, 2021, 01:50:57 PM »

You sound like a cheerleader.
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pjrocksmb
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« Reply #12 on: August 22, 2021, 06:24:16 PM »

Bailey isn't great, but he's fine.  He made a clutch 2nd down grab before garbage time.  2 drops make him look worse than he is, but even Adams had more drops than that.

Don't forget, Bailey had a TD, beauty where he called his own play to Zach when he knew he beat coverage.  2 TDs in 2 weeks... that's not a garbage receiver.

McKnight actually looked very good in his limited action.  Breaking tackles and getting YAC on every touch.  But silent later, probably means couldn't get open; rookies never get the slick routes right away.

Adams is fine.  He's not Rogers, he doesn't climb the ladder to 11 feet like Rogers.  No way he makes that catch anytime in his career.  That's fine though, he's great at what he does.  He's awesome at beating the one defender after catch to go get the TD.

Lawler had a bad day.  He'll fix that.  I guarantee it.

Hey, what's the common aspect here: Zach.  He was pressed all night and later on he was really zipping those balls!  He was also not on target sometimes, especially in H1.  Quite a few were just behind rather than just in front of crossers.  Those were dropped.

That said, Zach stayed composed and almost pulled off a comeback in garbage time.  But the D was too gassed.  Should have onside kicked even though it's against the book.  That D wasn't going to stop a JV team late in the 4th.

Agree with all buy onside kick.  We sent the house and could have caused a turn over, it didn't work and we got beat bad, happens.
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ichabod_crane
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« Reply #13 on: August 22, 2021, 06:46:59 PM »

Why would Mcknight be on the team. That group need something else

Where's the guy that played for BC last yr they played.  Carter?
We do need help at receiver....

Was Jefferson injured?

Duron Carter? AH NO THANKS! Wink Talented, but he has been through many teams in the CFL for a reason.
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Pigskin
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« Reply #14 on: August 22, 2021, 06:49:59 PM »

Duron Carter? AH NO THANKS! Wink Talented, but he has been through many teams in the CFL for a reason.

I agree, I couldn't see MOS putting up with his crap. NFL cutting down to 80 players on August 24, 53 players on August 31.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2021, 07:35:54 PM by Pigskin » Logged

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DM83
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« Reply #15 on: August 22, 2021, 07:17:37 PM »

Pigskin, so you are in Favor of giving him a look.?

I would agree he is an ego maniac.  I do believe Wade Or OShea would kick his *** is he still was a ME. guy.
He's the size we need
But of course there are tons of unknowns out there"

I thought Darin's catch at the one was a catch, and he wasn't down by contact as he landed on the DB, and the ball flew out of bounds but after he established possession.

The ref showed no integrity, or understanding of. What possession is.  So the easy call, - incomplete.
The other call had three interference possibilities.  The first was the Toronto receiver grabbing our guy, then we pushed the Rec away and caught the ball.

I would have called the first act the receiver grabbing our arm.

Why didn't OShea challenge Adams play?  OSjea was insert  your word.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2021, 07:19:15 PM by DM83 » Logged
Pigskin
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« Reply #16 on: August 22, 2021, 07:36:57 PM »

Hard no on any thing to do with DC.
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DM83
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« Reply #17 on: August 22, 2021, 07:53:43 PM »

Got it.
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dd
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« Reply #18 on: August 22, 2021, 08:00:55 PM »

Ya, I think Carter has played himself out of the league
« Last Edit: August 22, 2021, 09:18:49 PM by dd » Logged
Blue In BC
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« Reply #19 on: August 22, 2021, 09:03:09 PM »

Pigskin, so you are in Favor of giving him a look.?

I would agree he is an ego maniac.  I do believe Wade Or OShea would kick his *** is he still was a ME. guy.
He's the size we need
But of course there are tons of unknowns out there"

I thought Darin's catch at the one was a catch, and he wasn't down by contact as he landed on the DB, and the ball flew out of bounds but after he established possession.

The ref showed no integrity, or understanding of. What possession is.  So the easy call, - incomplete.
The other call had three interference possibilities.  The first was the Toronto receiver grabbing our guy, then we pushed the Rec away and caught the ball.

I would have called the first act the receiver grabbing our arm.

Why didn't OShea challenge Adams play?  OSjea was insert  your word.

You have to survive contact and / or with the ground and he didn't. Fans tend to blame the refs when calls don't go their way. O'Shea saw the replay and didn't deem it a reception either.
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dd
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« Reply #20 on: August 22, 2021, 09:20:09 PM »

Ya it was a no brainers drop, no sense challenging the obvious
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Horseman
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« Reply #21 on: August 22, 2021, 10:39:19 PM »

Hard no on any thing to do with DC.

Duron Carter is a cancer on any team. Hard no.
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DM83
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« Reply #22 on: August 23, 2021, 12:06:01 AM »

Adams landed on the tackler, I,don't think he touched the field.
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TecnoGenius
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« Reply #23 on: August 23, 2021, 06:37:14 AM »

Agree with all buy onside kick.  We sent the house and could have caused a turn over, it didn't work and we got beat bad, happens.

The funny thing is, we're sending Jones16 on blitz and he's got straight path to QB... but he jinks/jukes just a little bit and that literally delays him the 1/10 second to allow the pass.  It's really weird, like he was trying to anticipate QB running, or something.

If Jones just goes full speed straight ahead, that's probably a fumble or an errant toss.

Watch the play, you'll see.  Weird.  Too bad.  We'll never know.
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TecnoGenius
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« Reply #24 on: August 23, 2021, 06:39:03 AM »

You have to survive contact and / or with the ground and he didn't.

Only if you don't have possession on your feet.  If you have possession on your feet (Adams did) and take a step then "survive the ground" doesn't apply.  "Survive" is for jumping/diving/falling catches.  See my post on the other thread.

If you're running with the ball (i.e. steps) and guy tackles you and you lose it after DBC, then it's just that, DBC and you move the chains.
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Blue In BC
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« Reply #25 on: August 23, 2021, 12:10:48 PM »

Only if you don't have possession on your feet.  If you have possession on your feet (Adams did) and take a step then "survive the ground" doesn't apply.  "Survive" is for jumping/diving/falling catches.  See my post on the other thread.

If you're running with the ball (i.e. steps) and guy tackles you and you lose it after DBC, then it's just that, DBC and you move the chains.


The refs disagree with you, O'Shea choose not to challenge after looking at the review. That should tell you all you need to know but you continue to argue a rule you don't understand.
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3rdand1.5
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« Reply #26 on: August 23, 2021, 04:26:29 PM »

As a collective our receivers did not play well enough. It was one week, we looked good in the first two games let's hope they bounce back, everyone has bad games.
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Pigskin
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« Reply #27 on: August 23, 2021, 04:38:54 PM »

I know on CJOB after the game Doug and Bob were talking about adding a game breaking receiver like Daniels. I am think Lawler still could be that guy. That catch he made well battling for the ball was pretty amazing.
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DM83
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« Reply #28 on: August 23, 2021, 05:08:28 PM »

AgAin, like last year, we DO NOT have a game breaker receiver.

We,do need a dominating guy.
I mean come on.  When the ball goes up, as fans we kind of hope and pray our guy catches it.

Admit it.  For four years now McManus has been unable to find us a dominating receiver.

We have an excellent group, but not one guy that can dominate.

Lawler and Adams are awesome as second and third guys.  They don't have break away speed, and that in itself prevents some easy scores.  Demski is probably the fastest.  Everything else are sub par.

Here is an interesting question. Who would be our version of the Tampa Bay's "Gronk" ?

Buck aint Lapo.  Our motion game ain't the same..
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Sir Blue and Gold
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« Reply #29 on: August 23, 2021, 05:50:44 PM »

AgAin, like last year, we DO NOT have a game breaker receiver.

Edmonton has two on paper but Ellingson has had one good game and Walker hasn't done much all year. Shaq Evans is on the 6-game. Collaros is 3rd in passing yards and 1st in passing TDs. Lucky Whitehead, Bryan Burnham and Kenny Lawler are 1, 2 and 3 in receiving yards so for this season.

We're chucking the ball just fine. We have more than enough talent at wide receiver.
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DM83
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« Reply #30 on: August 23, 2021, 05:55:32 PM »

Lol! Ooookayyyyy!
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blue_gold_84
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« Reply #31 on: August 23, 2021, 06:04:22 PM »

Gronkowski isn't even the Bucs' best receiver. What a weird comment.

Lawler definitely has the tools to be a legitimate #1 receiver. He's on pace for 1,000 yards and has made some beautiful receptions through three games (his catch on Saturday was unreal). He can be a game breaker, IMO.
Bailey runs a great route and has some speed and elusiveness, but he needs to work on his hands. He's got the potential to be an inside threat but needs to be more consistent.
Adams is an all-around solid 1B receiver and has demonstrated his reliability over the years.
Then there's Demski and Wolitarsky. Plus some new unproven faces in McKnight and Tyrell.

This is three games into the season without a pre-season after no CFL in 2020. Despite those hurdles, the offense has been mostly successful in two of those games.

The sky isn't falling and if anything, it's a young rookie OC that has to learn to make adjustments in-game. Which is to say nothing about the dismal performance by the O-line.
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3rdand1.5
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« Reply #32 on: August 23, 2021, 06:54:01 PM »

Gronkowski isn't even the Bucs' best receiver. What a weird comment.

Lawler definitely has the tools to be a legitimate #1 receiver. He's on pace for 1,000 yards and has made some beautiful receptions through three games (his catch on Saturday was unreal). He can be a game breaker, IMO.
Bailey runs a great route and has some speed and elusiveness, but he needs to work on his hands. He's got the potential to be an inside threat but needs to be more consistent.
Adams is an all-around solid 1B receiver and has demonstrated his reliability over the years.
Then there's Demski and Wolitarsky. Plus some new unproven faces in McKnight and Tyrell.

This is three games into the season without a pre-season after no CFL in 2020. Despite those hurdles, the offense has been mostly successful in two of those games.

The sky isn't falling and if anything, it's a young rookie OC that has to learn to make adjustments in-game. Which is to say nothing about the dismal performance by the O-line.

I think what appeared to be dismal performance by the o-line had a-lot to do with us not countering the blitzes and pressure. We really did not have a game plan to succeed on offence with the pressure they threw at us, T.O picked up on it and that we didn't really adjust and they just straight up beat us down.
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DM83
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« Reply #33 on: August 23, 2021, 07:15:48 PM »

Yup and a big inside receiver would not only aide in blocking, but would be difficult to defend on short crosses, hooks, and he can. Also catch.

But, I guess that concept was over the head of some.  Let's. Cheer for the poor receivers, who are marginal at best. Lol!
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Horseman
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« Reply #34 on: August 23, 2021, 07:42:06 PM »

Don't forget the Toronto DC was with us for a few years and knows all about our offence's strengths and weaknesses.
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blue_gold_84
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« Reply #35 on: August 23, 2021, 07:43:35 PM »

I think what appeared to be dismal performance by the o-line had a-lot to do with us not countering the blitzes and pressure. We really did not have a game plan to succeed on offence with the pressure they threw at us, T.O picked up on it and that we didn't really adjust and they just straight up beat us down.

Adjustments weren't made and there were several missed assignments in terms of blocking, timing, and missed plays. A few really nice receptions aside, the offense collectively had a lousy game.
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Sir Blue and Gold
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« Reply #36 on: August 23, 2021, 09:05:13 PM »

Lol! Ooookayyyyy!

Lawler has 229 yards in three games which averages to 76.3 yards a game. If he were to keep that up over an 18 game season that's 1373.4 yards.

Lawler lead the team in receiving yards last year with 637 in 16 games. That's a 39.8 yard average in the LaPo/Nichols offense.

It's early but statistically we're doing a better job passing the ball this year (even considering one of the three games was a pretty poor effort all around). And if Lawler were to remain on pace to net 1373 yards, that's elite receiver production.

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Ridermania
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« Reply #37 on: August 23, 2021, 09:14:25 PM »

Duke Williams just released in NFL.

https://3downnation.com/2021/08/23/buffalo-bills-release-former-cfl-all-star-receiver-duke-williams/
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DM83
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« Reply #38 on: August 23, 2021, 10:11:08 PM »

We need to spend money on maybe a receiver and a kicker.
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pjrocksmb
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« Reply #39 on: August 23, 2021, 10:34:02 PM »

AgAin, like last year, we DO NOT have a game breaker receiver.

We,do need a dominating guy.
I mean come on.  When the ball goes up, as fans we kind of hope and pray our guy catches it.

Admit it.  For four years now McManus has been unable to find us a dominating receiver.

We have an excellent group, but not one guy that can dominate.

Lawler and Adams are awesome as second and third guys.  They don't have break away speed, and that in itself prevents some easy scores.  Demski is probably the fastest.  Everything else are sub par.

Here is an interesting question. Who would be our version of the Tampa Bay's "Gronk" ?

Buck aint Lapo.  Our motion game ain't the same..

Lawler and Adams are both very good and can be game breakers.

No we don't pray that they will catch it like you said, our starting receivers all can catch, have shown that in past.

Agree, excellent group, disagree as Adams and Lawler are game breakers.  Just not as dominant as say top 5 in league.  But that's fine, our strength is our depth, consistency and ability to spread the ball around.

Disagree about Adams being a 2nd or 3rd guy, he has been a very good primary for us for years.  Demski isn't the fastest.

Buck has been fine in his 1st year, get Harris and Demski back and we will see last years magic return.  But yes Lapo was top tier.  Buck average and will find his way.

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dd
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« Reply #40 on: August 24, 2021, 12:30:48 AM »

Go get Sir Duke!!!
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pjrocksmb
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« Reply #41 on: August 24, 2021, 12:46:57 AM »

Go get Sir Duke!!!
Anyone know if he's hurt or what the price tag would be? Any team have his rights?
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TecnoGenius
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« Reply #42 on: August 24, 2021, 02:42:33 AM »

Lawler definitely has the tools to be a legitimate #1 receiver. He's on pace for 1,000 yards and has made some beautiful receptions through three games (his catch on Saturday was unreal). He can be a game breaker, IMO.

Lawler is for sure our #1 right now.  Lawler has GREAT hands, the best in our team, probably in years.  And I don't agree that he's slow (someone else said), he's probably up there with Demski.  Not Grant speed, but good enough for a SB.

Lawler could very well become a top-5 receiver in the CFL, if he isn't already.

Our receiving corps is pretty good, seriously.  Yes, we don't have a Rogers or Burnham monster, but that's just not really our M.O. anyhow.
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Pigskin
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« Reply #43 on: August 24, 2021, 02:56:30 AM »


Every team in the CFL will want this guy. We should get in line.
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TecnoGenius
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« Reply #44 on: August 24, 2021, 03:19:11 AM »

The refs disagree with you, O'Shea choose not to challenge after looking at the review. That should tell you all you need to know but you continue to argue a rule you don't understand.

I fully understand the rule.  Do you?  You say "boo" but don't elaborate on how my elaboration was wrong?  I laid out points, refute the points.  Which point am I wrong?  You think the refs don't botch calls?  You think MOS chose not to challenge because it was still early in the 3rd quarter and he needs to keep those refs honest?

Before starting, I will grant you one thing, the live shot and angle really looks like incomplete.  That was my first impression (and the refs).  Not until the replays at better angles do you see that there's a good case for a completion and fumble here.

Section 3. Paragraph 1: Possession means having the ball firmly held in hand or hands, arm or arms, leg or legs, or under the body.

Adams had possession of the ball "firmly held" the entire time from the moment the ball hits him, it's actually a thing of beauty to see how well he controlled that ball.  Only when he's already down by contact (DBC), with his knee touching first, then his butt hits, does the ball pop up out of possession.

Section 4. Article 5: Complete forward pass: (e) When a receiver of either team, who is in the air and has complete control of the ball, has their feet or another part of their body hit the ground, the player must retain possession for the pass to be ruled complete, with or without contact by an opponent.

That's the "survive the ground" rule.  This is the only questionable point.  Adams, when running, does this little long-stride hop thing, 1 foot off the ground tops while in-stride.  I'm not even sure you can call it a jump.  Does this count as "in the air"?  In some angles you can't really even tell he's "hopping".  I didn't even notice his hop until scrutinizing the 2nd replay.

I can find no other rule pertaining to this situation.  If you can find more, quote it here.

The 2nd replay (3rd angle, from the sideline) is probably best to judge this play.  Adams catches it perfectly in 2 hands against his chest.  Zero doubt he instantly has possession.  He then shifts to 1 hand against his chest without the ball ever appearing to not be in possession.

He takes 2 more steps after possession, while fully upright, before being tackled.  When he goes down his knee/leg hit the ground early, and only later does the ball pop out with his butt hit.

I guess in hindsight Adams could have done 2 things to help the situation:
1. Not hopped at all.
2. Kept the ball tucked with 2 arms and not fumbled.  But I think he was hoping to take it and run as he was not falling at that point.

I'm not saying it's 100%.  But MOS had a 50/50 chance at least, IMHO.  Even Duane Forde, who knows these things, said on replay that MOS might have a case and elaborates quite a bit.  And since the fumble went OOB without further touches, it's our ball at that position.

All hinges on the definition of "in the air".  Every player when at full sprint is "in the air" (i.e. no feet touching) on every stride for a brief moment.  How much of a "hop" is permitted in-stride?
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« Reply #45 on: August 24, 2021, 09:39:50 AM »

A hop? ***?

Was possession established? Or was there ball movement I.e. He never fully secured the ball? From the tv replay he did, even took two steps with the ball firmly in his hands.

Now his inability to hang onto,the ball upon contact and landing in the DB, screwed up possession.  A great play by the DB. The ball went flying out of bounds, and from the TV replay it didn't look like it was touched by the DB.

So, I would have called it a catch, fumbled out of bounds and Bombers ball at the two yard line.

The problem now is with the booth on replays and the ref who made the call immediately.  He was definite that the ball was never secured long enough, and therefore incomplete. The booth could find no evidence to overturn the call, at that point.

The rule in the CFL is......
It's different in the NFL, it's different in different levels of amateur.
These CFL refs also ref amateur, and University.  I do ref with some of these refs, and the two guys I know, rarely make a controversial call on Pass I.  They readily admit they are confused on a call involving possession.

If as we are discussing possession, as we are, we can't agree.
Your comment about possession is awesome.  I agree that someone should call up the supervisor of CFL officials, for the quote of the actual rule.  It has changed in the last three years, it seems.

Someone get a CFL rule book or casebook that provides examples.

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« Reply #46 on: August 24, 2021, 12:21:41 PM »

I fully understand the rule.  Do you?  You say "boo" but don't elaborate on how my elaboration was wrong?  I laid out points, refute the points.  Which point am I wrong?  You think the refs don't botch calls?  You think MOS chose not to challenge because it was still early in the 3rd quarter and he needs to keep those refs honest?

Before starting, I will grant you one thing, the live shot and angle really looks like incomplete.  That was my first impression (and the refs).  Not until the replays at better angles do you see that there's a good case for a completion and fumble here.

Section 3. Paragraph 1: Possession means having the ball firmly held in hand or hands, arm or arms, leg or legs, or under the body.

Adams had possession of the ball "firmly held" the entire time from the moment the ball hits him, it's actually a thing of beauty to see how well he controlled that ball.  Only when he's already down by contact (DBC), with his knee touching first, then his butt hits, does the ball pop up out of possession.

Section 4. Article 5: Complete forward pass: (e) When a receiver of either team, who is in the air and has complete control of the ball, has their feet or another part of their body hit the ground, the player must retain possession for the pass to be ruled complete, with or without contact by an opponent.

That's the "survive the ground" rule.  This is the only questionable point.  Adams, when running, does this little long-stride hop thing, 1 foot off the ground tops while in-stride.  I'm not even sure you can call it a jump.  Does this count as "in the air"?  In some angles you can't really even tell he's "hopping".  I didn't even notice his hop until scrutinizing the 2nd replay.

I can find no other rule pertaining to this situation.  If you can find more, quote it here.

The 2nd replay (3rd angle, from the sideline) is probably best to judge this play.  Adams catches it perfectly in 2 hands against his chest.  Zero doubt he instantly has possession.  He then shifts to 1 hand against his chest without the ball ever appearing to not be in possession.

He takes 2 more steps after possession, while fully upright, before being tackled.  When he goes down his knee/leg hit the ground early, and only later does the ball pop out with his butt hit.

I guess in hindsight Adams could have done 2 things to help the situation:
1. Not hopped at all.
2. Kept the ball tucked with 2 arms and not fumbled.  But I think he was hoping to take it and run as he was not falling at that point.

I'm not saying it's 100%.  But MOS had a 50/50 chance at least, IMHO.  Even Duane Forde, who knows these things, said on replay that MOS might have a case and elaborates quite a bit.  And since the fumble went OOB without further touches, it's our ball at that position.

All hinges on the definition of "in the air".  Every player when at full sprint is "in the air" (i.e. no feet touching) on every stride for a brief moment.  How much of a "hop" is permitted in-stride?


I don't need to quote anything. It was called incomplete and O'Shea didn't challenge. You don't think a HC is going to challenge a possible reception on the 2 yard line if he thought he'd win it? Adams didn't end up with the ball.

Ending up with the ball is simple explanation of a reception. You're just being a homer.
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« Reply #47 on: August 24, 2021, 01:25:33 PM »

The call could have gone either way IMO. Once the ref made it tho, it wasn't going to be overturned. That's why MOS likely didn't throw his flag.
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DM83
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« Reply #48 on: August 24, 2021, 01:31:04 PM »

Lol!
Thanks I don't think I have never been called a " homer"...maybe a critical S.O.B. And a pot stirrer. And much worse.

And I don't think MOS knows the definition.  Period.
And even if he did, throwing a flag might mean losing, and losing a time out, which looked like he didn't, want to, as he wanted to keep the time out.

Your definition might just be the best, by the way.Smiley
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Blue In BC
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« Reply #49 on: August 24, 2021, 02:38:56 PM »

Lol!
Thanks I don't think I have never been called a " homer"...maybe a critical S.O.B. And a pot stirrer. And much worse.

And I don't think MOS knows the definition.  Period.
And even if he did, throwing a flag might mean losing, and losing a time out, which looked like he didn't, want to, as he wanted to keep the time out.

Your definition might just be the best, by the way.Smiley

I was quoting Techno's comment.
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« Reply #50 on: August 24, 2021, 04:25:06 PM »

Lol!
Ok, ok , call me stupid, as well!
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« Reply #51 on: August 25, 2021, 03:52:16 AM »

I don't need to quote anything. It was called incomplete and O'Shea didn't challenge. You don't think a HC is going to challenge a possible reception on the 2 yard line if he thought he'd win it? Adams didn't end up with the ball.

Ending up with the ball is simple explanation of a reception. You're just being a homer.

Agree no catch 100%, agree case of the Homers lol,if the pros thought otherwise you would have seen a challenge

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« Reply #52 on: August 25, 2021, 04:25:00 AM »

I think you naysayer guys are relying on the "bang bang", fast timing aspect of it all.  You could possibly argue he held it too short a time (though it was 2 steps and a fall).

But there is actually zero rules in the book about "bang bang" or "not held long enough".  There simply isn't.  See my actual CFL rulebook definitions of catch quoted previously.  The only mention of fumble with a definition is the person in possession losing possession.  So was Adams in possession?  The only possible rule that would make him not is his "hop".

Searching through every reference to "fumble" I found this interesting bit not in the rules but in the "command review examples" section:

I.R.A.R. 18 Pass rule incompleted:  Team A first and ten at their 38 yard line throw a forward pass to A77, who catches the ball, is hit immediately and fumbles the ball, which is recovered by Team B.  Officials rule the pass incomplete.
RULING Reviewable play.  However, if the pass is ruled complete followed by a fumble, Team B can be awarded possession provided the ball is recovered immediately.


That is the only thing in the whole book I see that hints at "bang bang", and funny it's not in the actual rules.  So the refs are going on precedent, but are saying if not deemed "immediately" then it can be overturned to a completion+fumble.

So it's a gray area and hinges not only on vague rulebook rules, but on league precedent where "bang bang" is taken into account.  To me it can't be "bang bang" here because Adams a) secures the ball, b) "football moves" the ball into a better one-handed tuck, takes 2 steps, maintains possession all the way down onto his knees, and only loses the ball when his butt hits the turf from the impact.

I bet you dollars to donuts that if TOR had recoverable the fumble, their Dinwiddie is throwing his challenge flag to call it a completion!!  I still say 50/50 it's overturned.

The booth could find no evidence to overturn the call, at that point.

Command didn't look at it as it wasn't a scoring play, not in the last 3 mins, and wasn't a turnover.  But I bet you command was getting ready saying "we might have a challenge here, let's start looking at it".

It all just went by what the ref saw.  And at full speed and being so confusing a situation, I completely understand why the ref called it incomplete.  I thought that at first also.

I'm not being a homer here.  This could be any team's ball and I'd argue the same thing.  Heck, we weren't going to win anyhow!  I like the minutiae of the rules and new/odd situations (like the MTL last second not-TD game-losing catch).
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« Reply #53 on: August 25, 2021, 05:07:07 AM »

Great effort to,find somethings resembling a fumble.
The question not determined is what constitutes possession..

What would make it possessions?  And therefore if the specifics of possession were not met it would be not possessed, or incomplete. Apparently, is That what the ref saw.?

No other view was. Deemed better or was inconclusive, so as they sat in tv they went with. The refs call.
Good work!  I hope it didn't. Keep you working on it for the last 17 hours?
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Blue In BC
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« Reply #54 on: August 25, 2021, 02:03:20 PM »

Great effort to,find somethings resembling a fumble.
The question not determined is what constitutes possession..

What would make it possessions?  And therefore if the specifics of possession were not met it would be not possessed, or incomplete. Apparently, is That what the ref saw.?

No other view was. Deemed better or was inconclusive, so as they sat in tv they went with. The refs call.
Good work!  I hope it didn't. Keep you working on it for the last 17 hours?

Making a football move with possession ( control ) of the ball is required to deem a reception. A receiver could have the ball in his hands but not have it in control before or after making a football move. Yes it's a grey area somewhat but the rulings are generally fairly consistent. There aren't a huge number of challenges and when there are the overturn rate is probably about 50% or less?
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« Reply #55 on: August 25, 2021, 04:03:50 PM »

Making a football move with possession ( control ) of the ball is required to deem a reception. A receiver could have the ball in his hands but not have it in control before or after making a football move. Yes it's a grey area somewhat but the rulings are generally fairly consistent. There aren't a huge number of challenges and when there are the overturn rate is probably about 50% or less?
Agree.

Having accurate stats on that success rate would help the pros decide, I bet they have some numbers on what has worked for the club and perhaps across the league.  Would be interesting to see. 
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« Reply #56 on: August 25, 2021, 09:59:36 PM »

I think at that point of the game it was worth a challenge. Were down by 8 points early in the 3rd quarter. Could have totally swung the game momentum. Considering what happened later, they could have been tied at the end of regulation (pure speculation, just doing the math). A BIG gain like that very near the goal line you have to think 2 or 3 times about risking a challenge. Somebody in the booth should have been quicker on requesting one to O'Shea. A first down play late in the game or a big gainer near the goal line you just don't give up easily on.

Tack on your field goal kicker can't make a 37 yard field goal right after that, you go for it I say until your field goal kicking improves.

As crappy as the Bombers played, they still almost tied it up. Argos did move the ball a lot, but had to settle for 3 field goals and turned the ball over more than the bombers. 3 other fumbles the Bombers did not recover either. Sound familiar?....See Edmonton Elks their first two games.

The run stopping game must improve. If they hold the Argos to a two and out late after they pull within 7 points, they still got a shot at another touchdown with about a buck thirty left on the clock. Could not stop a guy up the middle run several times. Not what they demonstrated back in 2019 as the best rushing against defence. Missing our nose tackle and two outer LB'ers is not helping for sure. Need Jake Thomas, Sayles and Kongbo to step up better on the run and whomever else they rotate in there.

Calgary does not have much of a run game, so they might get away with it this coming weekend. Still needs to be shored up and hopefully those injured defensive players are back soon or some better subs need to slot in.
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« Reply #57 on: August 25, 2021, 11:39:57 PM »

I think at that point of the game it was worth a challenge. Were down by 8 points early in the 3rd quarter. Could have totally swung the game momentum. Considering what happened later, they could have been tied at the end of regulation (pure speculation, just doing the math). A BIG gain like that very near the goal line you have to think 2 or 3 times about risking a challenge. Somebody in the booth should have been quicker on requesting one to O'Shea. A first down play late in the game or a big gainer near the goal line you just don't give up easily on.

Tack on your field goal kicker can't make a 37 yard field goal right after that, you go for it I say until your field goal kicking improves.

As crappy as the Bombers played, they still almost tied it up. Argos did move the ball a lot, but had to settle for 3 field goals and turned the ball over more than the bombers. 3 other fumbles the Bombers did not recover either. Sound familiar?....See Edmonton Elks their first two games.

The run stopping game must improve. If they hold the Argos to a two and out late after they pull within 7 points, they still got a shot at another touchdown with about a buck thirty left on the clock. Could not stop a guy up the middle run several times. Not what they demonstrated back in 2019 as the best rushing against defence. Missing our nose tackle and two outer LB'ers is not helping for sure. Need Jake Thomas, Sayles and Kongbo to step up better on the run and whomever else they rotate in there.

Calgary does not have much of a run game, so they might get away with it this coming weekend. Still needs to be shored up and hopefully those injured defensive players are back soon or some better subs need to slot in.
Calculated risk vs. Reward
Don't want to waste it
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« Reply #58 on: August 25, 2021, 11:59:56 PM »

 Definitely worth a shot at challenging. Close enough to a catch to warrant it. A single time out in the CFL is really not that significant. Win the challenge, new ball game. Lose it, so what? Our kicking woes made it more worthwhile throwing the flag. I watched the replay a few times. Thought he had control.
 As to the receiver debate, I thing one dynamic guy, the so called game breaker, would make a huge difference. Would open up a lot of space for our other, very capable receivers. Not impressed with Bailey or McKnight.

 Really had high hopes for Meridith. He was that guy with da Bears.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2021, 12:02:34 AM by longtimeblue » Logged
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« Reply #59 on: August 26, 2021, 09:00:56 PM »

Calculated risk vs. Reward
Don't want to waste it

I guess I am bigger risk taker than O'Shea then! Smiley Go for points when they are there for the taking. If Medlock was in tow, then for sure you get the easy 3. Right now though it's a crap shoot for field goals.
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« Reply #60 on: August 26, 2021, 09:22:42 PM »

Definitely worth a shot at challenging. Close enough to a catch to warrant it. A single time out in the CFL is really not that significant. Win the challenge, new ball game. Lose it, so what? Our kicking woes made it more worthwhile throwing the flag. I watched the replay a few times. Thought he had control.
 As to the receiver debate, I thing one dynamic guy, the so called game breaker, would make a huge difference. Would open up a lot of space for our other, very capable receivers. Not impressed with Bailey or McKnight.

 Really had high hopes for Meridith. He was that guy with da Bears.


DITKA!....Da Bulls, Da Bears!!    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBnnon_iZOM
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« Reply #61 on: September 06, 2021, 12:16:51 AM »

Watch last game 3 times and report back please lol
DA Bombers
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« Reply #62 on: September 06, 2021, 12:40:24 AM »

Glad the Bombers are pretty deep in this category now. Pierce may be a good reliable OC but he isn't the killer type that stomps on their opponents non stop.
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« Reply #63 on: September 06, 2021, 12:53:43 AM »

DA BOMBERS!! DA JETS!!! Wink SWAGGERVILLE #2! Cheesy
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« Reply #64 on: September 06, 2021, 02:32:08 AM »

DA BOMBERS!! DA JETS!!! Wink SWAGGERVILLE #2! Cheesy
Pretty classic moment there Smiley
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« Reply #65 on: September 06, 2021, 04:05:12 PM »

Terrific performance by our WRs yesterday. Big rebound from the Stamp game. Bravo!
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« Reply #66 on: September 06, 2021, 08:20:18 PM »

Collaros with a perfect Throw and Demski with a great catch. The receivers are getting open and few dropsies this game. That bodes well if it continues into the future.
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« Reply #67 on: September 06, 2021, 10:17:56 PM »

Why do the bombers have such a hard time finding real good receivers, the ones we have are good but are so hot and cold. The best we have is Lawler but has been dropping a lot lately and Adams was real good a couple years ago but not the same receiver he was. Demski is one you could count on and Wolitarsky is good but not used enough. As for Bailey, he is above average but not a game breaker so far and will he be in his 2nd year? The other guys that are marked in as receivers are Nelson and McKnight, both haven't showed that they should be here as receivers. You may say that Nelson is not a receiver but was put in when Demski went down. The rest of the receivers that were brought in beginning of the year are mostly gone. So i'm wondering if that is why Roosevelt was brought in. Zach needs a Rodgers, Lewis or a Burnham when you need a guy he could count on that holds on when you need it.
 You look at Zach when he comes off the field, he doesn't look happy with all the drops.
 You may say that we have good receivers but maybe it time to turn it up a notch and find better or a game breaker other teams seem to find them.
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« Reply #68 on: September 07, 2021, 01:49:18 AM »

Why do the bombers have such a hard time finding real good receivers, the ones we have are good but are so hot and cold. The best we have is Lawler but has been dropping a lot lately and Adams was real good a couple years ago but not the same receiver he was. Demski is one you could count on and Wolitarsky is good but not used enough. As for Bailey, he is above average but not a game breaker so far and will he be in his 2nd year? The other guys that are marked in as receivers are Nelson and McKnight, both haven't showed that they should be here as receivers. You may say that Nelson is not a receiver but was put in when Demski went down. The rest of the receivers that were brought in beginning of the year are mostly gone. So i'm wondering if that is why Roosevelt was brought in. Zach needs a Rodgers, Lewis or a Burnham when you need a guy he could count on that holds on when you need it.
 You look at Zach when he comes off the field, he doesn't look happy with all the drops.
 You may say that we have good receivers but maybe it time to turn it up a notch and find better or a game breaker other teams seem to find them.

Kenny Lawler is second in the CFL for receiving yards and tied for second with receiving touchdowns. That's pretty good. And he's a Winnipeg find.
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« Reply #69 on: September 07, 2021, 01:57:10 AM »

The receivers got a bad rap last game against the Stamps and I noticed 3 key receptions by 3 different receivers.    The first great catch was Lawler's catch after the interception....that was a difficult catch to make and it resulted in our first major early in the game and took the Rider fans out of the game.   The second big catch was Wolitarski's lay out diving catch which was pretty spectacular and got us into scoring range.    The other big catch was Demski's  end zone TD which was a gorgeous throw by Zach who took a hit to deliver that one.....that play pretty much sealed the deal for us.   Adams had a pretty good outing despite his fumble which was an equally good play by Gainey to punch it out from behind.    I'm still happy we signed Roosevelt because of his sure hands and vast body of work and experience behind him.   Receivers get nicked up often and Adams is known to go down once or twice a season.    Hopefully Andrew Harris gets thrown into the mix as he's a great receiver out of the backfield and downfield as well!    Bailey is rounding into form as well and if we can get Grant back he's capable of making plays on offence to keep opposing Ds honest with his blinding speed!
« Last Edit: September 07, 2021, 01:59:13 AM by Lincoln Locomotive » Logged

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« Reply #70 on: September 07, 2021, 03:41:51 AM »

Having Roosevelt may allow us to rest a receiver for a game to allow them to get fully healthy, as O'Shea said they are all nicked up and most have been limited or dnp on tpractice days. If we DI one we can also rotate them in game which has been a key part in our defensive schemes. Also Roosevelt has always been clutch on second downs.
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Blue In BC
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« Reply #71 on: September 07, 2021, 12:14:08 PM »

Kenny Lawler is second in the CFL for receiving yards and tied for second with receiving touchdowns. That's pretty good. And he's a Winnipeg find.

Technically he was found by the Lions in 2018. We added him to TC and kept him.
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« Reply #72 on: September 07, 2021, 12:15:21 PM »

Kenny Lawler is second in the CFL for receiving yards and tied for second with receiving touchdowns. That's pretty good. And he's a Winnipeg find.

Lawler is a stud.
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« Reply #73 on: September 07, 2021, 01:03:11 PM »

Lawler is a great receiver. Had some bad drops in a couple games but he is an elite receiver. No worries about him at all. Bailey is an enigma. He is hot an cold. Adams just hasn't found his groove yet, and if he doesn't do so soon that will be tough production to lose. Mitchell would have helped us a lot. Woli/Demski are as good as it gets in this league for NAT receivers. No worries there. We could use one more IMP stud receiver imo. Personally, I would like to see an upgrade on Bailey.
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« Reply #74 on: September 07, 2021, 01:04:41 PM »

Maybe we should get Lawler's eyes checked... maybe he needs some Lazix... fixed Bowman up...
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« Reply #75 on: September 07, 2021, 01:10:06 PM »

I like how Zach is putting in a sneaky game stats wise. Leads the league in active QB's. And not even much of a whimper of MOP talk yet..
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Blue In BC
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« Reply #76 on: September 07, 2021, 01:21:32 PM »

Having Roosevelt may allow us to rest a receiver for a game to allow them to get fully healthy, as O'Shea said they are all nicked up and most have been limited or dnp on tpractice days. If we DI one we can also rotate them in game which has been a key part in our defensive schemes. Also Roosevelt has always been clutch on second downs.

You lost me.

If we DI Roosevelt we have to take one of the defensive DI's out.

The idea of letting a veteran sit for a game and get healthy has some merit. We don't get enough injury information about exactly how healthy each receiver is at the moment.

Clearly they are all nicked and could use some time to heal but that is the nature of pro sport. No veteran will want to sit. Most are not practising much due to being nicked.

It's an interesting question for the coaches this week as they juggle the roster.
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« Reply #77 on: September 07, 2021, 02:11:17 PM »

Technically he was found by the Lions in 2018. We added him to TC and kept him.

Thanks for that. Didn't know!
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« Reply #78 on: September 07, 2021, 03:53:06 PM »

Thanks for that. Didn't know!

No big deal. It's not unusual for players from one TC or PR to end up on another roster even in their 1st season. Overall the Bombers haven't been great at finding receivers directly and them still with team for an extended time.

This TC was no exception. I thought we'd at least find one that was really challenging Nelson, Grant and possibly Bailey.  At the moment the sole import survivor is McKnight and he could be on thin ice after adding Roosevelt and once Grant returns.

Bailey has shown some talent at times but we're 5 games in and he has 220 yards. I wouldn't consider him a lock and think there is a chance that Roosevelt bumps him this week.

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« Reply #79 on: September 09, 2021, 03:48:42 AM »

Wolitarsky made a phenomenal diving grab against the Riders.....here's a great shot of it

https://3downnation.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/Drew-Wolitarsky.jpg




« Last Edit: September 09, 2021, 04:13:29 AM by Lincoln Locomotive » Logged

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« Reply #80 on: October 27, 2021, 12:31:58 PM »

Our recievers our not as good as everyone thinks. Lawler average,  Demski good but injured, Bailey shouldn't be on the team, McKnight should take Bailey's spot.  Woli is under used  Adam's is our best. We need taller recievers.

Fortunately, this comment hasn't aged well.
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« Reply #81 on: October 27, 2021, 12:35:57 PM »

Fortunately, this comment hasn't aged well.

LOL. No kidding. We've seen the continued improvement game to game of all of our receivers. I'm particularly happy to see Bailey live up to what we saw briefly in 2019. He's now being used more in the game plan by Pierce.

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Jesse
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« Reply #82 on: October 27, 2021, 12:54:40 PM »

I absolutely hate when people go looking for old takes like this just to rub a random comment in someone's face.

Grow up, people.
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« Reply #83 on: October 27, 2021, 12:56:50 PM »

I absolutely hate when people go looking for old takes like this just to rub a random comment in someone's face.

Grow up, people.

Oh, give it a rest. Some posters have pretty laughably bad takes.

Try not to fall off your high horse, BTW.
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« Reply #84 on: October 27, 2021, 01:25:15 PM »

Oh, give it a rest. Some posters have pretty laughably bad takes.

Try not to fall off your high horse, BTW.
I agree with Jessie on this one what?s the point of taking pot shots at all posts?

A lot has happened since then.

Best to Move on?
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blue_gold_84
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« Reply #85 on: October 27, 2021, 01:36:16 PM »

I agree with Jessie on this one what?s the point of taking pot shots at all posts?

A lot has happened since then.

Best to Move on?

A lot has happened since then.

Barely a few weeks into a compressed season with no pre-season was clearly a bad time to start a thread crapping all over the receiving corps.

Losing Collaros to injury is a "garbage thread" but let's tell someone else to grow up because another crummy thread didn't age well. Pointing out the latter is hardly taking pot shots.
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« Reply #86 on: October 27, 2021, 02:56:35 PM »

A lot has happened since then.

Barely a few weeks into a compressed season with no pre-season was clearly a bad time to start a thread crapping all over the receiving corps.

Losing Collaros to injury is a "garbage thread" but let's tell someone else to grow up because another crummy thread didn't age well. Pointing out the latter is hardly taking pot shots.
ok ok 84 all good

I agree the Collaros injury praying thread is idiotic and should be deleted as well.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2021, 03:50:49 PM by GOLDMEMBER » Logged

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« Reply #87 on: October 27, 2021, 04:31:58 PM »

When one posts ridiculous things for example:
Fire MOS now after a bad game or two
Fire Hall now after we get roasted on D
Our receivers suck, worst in league etc.

They are setting themselves up to be roasted in the moment and on occasion reminded of the past LOL
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Jesse
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« Reply #88 on: October 27, 2021, 04:55:20 PM »

We all say a million things throughout the season. Most of everything we all say is wrong.

But people want to bring up old posts trashing people for specific things; or even worse, bring up their old takes as something that accidently happened.

Lets just live in the moment.
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« Reply #89 on: October 27, 2021, 06:22:34 PM »

We all say a million things throughout the season. Most of everything we all say is wrong.

But people want to bring up old posts trashing people for specific things; or even worse, bring up their old takes as something that accidently happened.

Lets just live in the moment.

I agree, most of that stuff is from 2018, early 2019, but there are a few still looking in there rearview mirror. 
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« Reply #90 on: October 27, 2021, 06:23:18 PM »

I absolutely hate when people go looking for old takes like this just to rub a random comment in someone's face.

Grow up, people.

As a general rule so do I, but it depends on circumstance. If someone has a particularly bad take and is condescending with it or is just stirring the pot by making it in the first place then I see no issue calling them out on it. Most posters after a loss are simply venting though and it does not need to be revisited.
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« Reply #91 on: October 27, 2021, 06:57:10 PM »

As a general rule so do I, but it depends on circumstance. If someone has a particularly bad take and is condescending with it or is just stirring the pot by making it in the first place then I see no issue calling them out on it. Most posters after a loss are simply venting though and it does not need to be revisited.

You have to realize where it's coming from.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2021, 03:44:50 AM by Pigskin » Logged

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