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Author Topic: Mike O'Shea  (Read 21423 times)
Waffler
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« Reply #15 on: August 21, 2020, 02:51:56 AM »

He didn't have the greatest start and he can be stubborn but he also learned and got better. There is no one in the CFL I would want more right now to be HC.
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pjrocksmb
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« Reply #16 on: August 21, 2020, 03:51:26 AM »

I still don't like O'Shea.
We're just slightly above .500 with him at HC over his 7 year tenure.
It took him 6 years to win a playoff game.
He's now 1 game above .500 in the playoffs because he won 3 last year. 
His best regular season finish is 2nd in the West and that only happened once.
We were 3rd in the West, 4th in the league last year, one win better than Montreal under a rookie HC
Our Grey Cup win was much like the way the Stamps beat us in 2001, came from 3rd in the West to beat the #1 team. 
If we hadn't won a playoff game last year, I think he would have been fired. If he'd only won 1 playoff game he might have been fired.
You are wrong.  He turned this team around, brought stability, success and respect back to this club.  Wow.

The anti MOS and Hall movement on this forum over the last 3 year by some was about as nauseating as it gets.

Great coach!

He didn't have the greatest start and he can be stubborn but he also learned and got better. There is no one in the CFL I would want more right now to be HC.

Sums it up nicely.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2020, 03:59:57 AM by pjrocksmb » Logged

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TecnoGenius
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« Reply #17 on: August 21, 2020, 09:32:57 AM »

TB is 100% right on the facts.  No argument.  However, that doesn't define what MOS now means to this club.

TB: don't you agree it was likely that 2020 Bombers were going to have a great record and go deep in the playoffs, had there been a normal season?  I do.  MOS finally has the team where he wants it, and we all get the covid shaft.  Argh.

MOS has grown a lot.  When our QB and D were lousy (pre-Nichols for one, pre-Bighill for the other) WPG was the "trick play" team.  We also relied on the risky turnover play by our D.  There's the still the residual of the "trick play" paradigm when the commentators commentate on our games.  Even in the 2019 playoffs and GC the color guys would mention it.  Funny, because I think we did all of 1 or 2 trick plays in the entire 2019.  But in '14-'17 we did trick plays all the time on ST and O.  We had to or we had no hope.  It was high risk, high reward -- or a loss.

Slowly, piece by piece, MOS (with KW) built a team modelled after 2010-2019 CGY.  Very few tricks.  Just hard-nosed straight-laced football.  Just beat teams by the book.  Sure, Lapo would come up with wacky X/O's, but instead of high-risk, they were mostly low-risk, mostly run plays and short passes.  But very little you'd call "tricks".

The difference in MOS, the players, and the play calls from early MOS to now is astounding.  (I have the early-MOS years on PVR and I watch them once in a while.)

I think they out-CGY'd CGY in 2019, and if we can resemble the 2019 team in 2021, and if the CFL isn't a whole new world, we can probably carry the momentum.
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TBURGESS
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« Reply #18 on: August 21, 2020, 12:25:32 PM »

I expect we'd have been a middle of the road team again this season if there were one and it could go to lousy if Collaros got injured again and he's always injured. No Streveler to bail us out this year either. That's what we've been under MOS. A middle of the road team that had a great playoff run last year. We were not the dominant team that the fans like to think we were in 2019. We were just dominant in the playoffs.

Walters deserves more of the credit than he gets IMO. Without the last minute Collaros trade, we're one and done in the playoffs again last year. PLAP deserves more of the credit too. His boring, low risk offence put points on the board when it mattered despite having to use 3 different starting QB's.

MOS is way better now than when we first hired him. He's learned a lot over 7 years. He's still well down the list of best Bomber HC's IMO.
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the paw
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« Reply #19 on: August 21, 2020, 12:52:54 PM »

No question that Lapo, Hall and Walters deserve much of the credit for the success, at least as much as O'Shea. 

Where I would differ with TBurg is that I believe the 2019 Bombers were not middle of the road, they were a championship caliber team whose starting QB went MIA half way through the year.  But agree that without the trade for Collaros, it likely ends dismally.

The 2020 team was shaping up nicely, but there were still some major unanswered questions:  would Collaros hold up, can we transition to a new OC, can the secondary be reconstructed to account for Sayles and Rose?  We could have been anywhere from middle of the pack to top dog. 

I am a fan of the culture O'Shea has built, it is clear it helps to attract players. 

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« Reply #20 on: August 21, 2020, 12:56:19 PM »

Agree he is better and has learned a-lot in the past few years. Anyway you spin it. I think if the stamps bounced us in the playoffs. We would be have a new coach. Mgt couldn't keep telling fans, "wait to next year".
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Sir Blue and Gold
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« Reply #21 on: August 21, 2020, 01:37:24 PM »

I expect we'd have been a middle of the road team again this season if there were one and it could go to lousy if Collaros got injured again and he's always injured. No Streveler to bail us out this year either. That's what we've been under MOS. A middle of the road team that had a great playoff run last year. We were not the dominant team that the fans like to think we were in 2019. We were just dominant in the playoffs.

Walters deserves more of the credit than he gets IMO. Without the last minute Collaros trade, we're one and done in the playoffs again last year. PLAP deserves more of the credit too. His boring, low risk offence put points on the board when it mattered despite having to use 3 different starting QB's.

MOS is way better now than when we first hired him. He's learned a lot over 7 years. He's still well down the list of best Bomber HC's IMO.

How far down?

He's got 1 Grey Cup and a .519 winning percentage. That's a better win percentage than every coach after Dave Richie (1999 - 2004). Of course Dave doesn't have the Grey Cup. Want to find a coach with a better win percentage and Grey Cup win? You have to go all the way back to Mike Reilly (1987-1990, .556, 2 GCs) and Cal Murphy (1983-1986, .659, 1 GC).

He ranks 2nd all time in the franchise's head coaching wins next to only Bud Grant. As much as you wanted to paint his playoff winning percentage in a bad light, it's actually 4th best in franchise history looking at the modern era onward (Jan 1958 to today). He has a better playoff winning percentage than Mike Reilly.

Factually, he's an easy case for top 5, and not an unreasonable case for top 3. Certainly the most successful head coach we've had in 20 years and to find someone who's done significantly better you have to go back 30.

Those are just the straight facts.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2020, 01:48:40 PM by Sir Blue and Gold » Logged
TBURGESS
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« Reply #22 on: August 21, 2020, 05:42:01 PM »

I'd put O'Shea at 6th in the Bomber HC list, behind Bud Grant, Ray Jauch, Cal Murphy, Mike Riley and Dave Richie (In chronological order). I watched most of those teams to come to my conclusion. (I only saw the tail end of the Bud Grant era and I was young at the time, but his GC wins speak for themselves.)

Stats, especially cherry picked stats, don't tell the whole story.

MOS is 2nd in wins because he's 2nd in games coached. Most of our coaches didn't last more than a couple of years. Even the good ones only lasted 4 or 5 years. O'Shea has 7 years. Richie is only 4 wins behind him and he only had 4.5 years behind the bench.

It's not about raw number of wins anyway. O'Shea is 9th in win percent in your 'modern era' starting in '58. All 5 of my choices have better winning %'s than MOS. 3 of them have better playoff win %. Two have more GC's and Cal ties him at 1.

O'Shea's playoff win % went from 16% in 2018 to 57% last year. That's indicative of one great playoff run, not an overall great playoff coach.

Quite frankly, Doug Berry got more out of sub par talent than MOS ever did. MOS got better at the same pace as the players and coaches got better. He likely asked for the players he wanted, but it's Walters job to get them and fit them in the SMS. He stuck by under performing coaches and players longer than he should. He was rewarded with a magical playoff run last year.
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Sir Blue and Gold
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« Reply #23 on: August 21, 2020, 09:12:38 PM »

Cherry picked stats? They were the most logical ones to look at when evaluating the success of a head coach. They were: winning percentage, playoff winning percentage, games won and championship wins. Nothing "cherry picked". What else is more important and tells a more complete story? Hint: there isn't any.

Coaching for a longer length of time should be seen as an achievement and not an asterix. Dave Richie was fired because he started the 2004 season 2-5 and was last in the West division. He would have kept coaching if we'd let him, but we didn't, because the results weren't there. You mentioned Doug Berry. He finished with a 27-26-1 record and had no longevity because players don't like getting screamed at from golf carts forever.

I get you don't like O'Shea for whatever reason, that's fine. But I stand by the stats that he's easily a top 5 coach and most neutral observers can at least see why a case could be made for top 3.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2020, 10:51:18 PM by Sir Blue and Gold » Logged
pjrocksmb
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« Reply #24 on: August 21, 2020, 10:16:53 PM »

Cherry picked stats? They were the most logical ones to look at when evaluating the success of a head coach. They were: winning percentage, playoff winning percentage, games won and championship wins. Nothing "cherry picked". What else would is more important that tells a more complete story? Hint: there isn't any.

Coaching for a longer length of time should be seen as an achievement and not an asterix. Dave Richie was fired because he started the 2004 season 2-5 and was last in the West division. He would have kept coaching if we'd let him, but we didn't, because the results weren't there. You mentioned Doug Berry. He finished with a 27-26-1 record and had no longevity because players don't like getting screamed at from golf carts forever.

I get you don't like O'Shea for whatever reason, that's fine. But I stand by the stats that he's easily a top 5 coach and most neutral observers can at least see why a case could be made for top 3.


Excellent post.  I loved Dave and I love MOS. 

We would have been a very good ball club this year.
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TecnoGenius
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« Reply #25 on: August 22, 2020, 04:57:05 AM »

Quite frankly, Doug Berry got more out of sub par talent than MOS ever did. MOS got better at the same pace as the players and coaches got better. He likely asked for the players he wanted, but it's Walters job to get them and fit them in the SMS. He stuck by under performing coaches and players longer than he should. He was rewarded with a magical playoff run last year.

Again, you're looking at the past.  Did MOS do that in 2019?  Nope.  MOS was ruthless with underperformers last year.  Look at the quick dumping or benching of Matthews, Hume, Gaitor, Fenner, Hecht, Rios, etc. -- and the ultimate non-loyalty move of going with Collaros over Strev and McGuire.  It's even more remarkable because many of those guys were playing good ball.  But MOS was quick to put "even better" on the field.  Heck, at times I thought MOS was insane as he was benching guys right when it looked like they were really starting to shine: e.g. Fenner, Gaitor.

(And don't say he was too loyal to Hecht and played him too long... that was a ratio thing.)

Nope, MOS made none of the "loyalty mistakes" in 2019 that he did in prior years.  KW kept hauling the talent in all year and MOS kept tweaking the lineup until it was perfection.  And our D certainly was perfection by the post-season.

Like I said, MOS learned and now has it pretty nailed down.  I think he listened to all his (constructive) critics and criticism over these years and took it all to heart.  That plus emulating "the CGY method" created the best Bomber team we've had in 20+ years, IMHO.

If CFL returns to normal, I would wager you that MOS will be in your top-3 WFC coaches before he moves on.
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TBURGESS
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« Reply #26 on: August 22, 2020, 01:21:57 PM »

Again, you're looking at the past.  Did MOS do that in 2019?  Nope.  MOS was ruthless with underperformers last year.  Look at the quick dumping or benching of Matthews, Hume, Gaitor, Fenner, Hecht, Rios, etc. -- and the ultimate non-loyalty move of going with Collaros over Strev and McGuire.  It's even more remarkable because many of those guys were playing good ball.  But MOS was quick to put "even better" on the field.  Heck, at times I thought MOS was insane as he was benching guys right when it looked like they were really starting to shine: e.g. Fenner, Gaitor.

(And don't say he was too loyal to Hecht and played him too long... that was a ratio thing.)

Nope, MOS made none of the "loyalty mistakes" in 2019 that he did in prior years.  KW kept hauling the talent in all year and MOS kept tweaking the lineup until it was perfection.  And our D certainly was perfection by the post-season.

Like I said, MOS learned and now has it pretty nailed down.  I think he listened to all his (constructive) critics and criticism over these years and took it all to heart.  That plus emulating "the CGY method" created the best Bomber team we've had in 20+ years, IMHO.

If CFL returns to normal, I would wager you that MOS will be in your top-3 WFC coaches before he moves on.
I'm looking at MOS's entire career, not just last year. That's how you properly assess a career. If you're arguing that MOS had a good year last year, then I agree. If the argument is that MOS is a great coach, then I don't.

Last year was the first time that they didn't just go with the guys that had been with the team for the entire year. They actually kept bringing players in until the final day, which is one of the big reasons that they turned the corner in the playoffs. Notice that I'm saying they, not MOS, because it's Walters who brought them in.

MOS went with Collaros when Streveler got injured. McGuire didn't have a single start under his belt. That's not the ultimate non-loyalty move. It's the only move to make if you want to win. MOS wouldn't have won any playoff games and would likely have been fired if he didn't make that move.

Cherry picked stats? They were the most logical ones to look at when evaluating the success of a head coach. They were: winning percentage, playoff winning percentage, games won and championship wins. Nothing "cherry picked". What else is more important and tells a more complete story? Hint: there isn't any.

Coaching for a longer length of time should be seen as an achievement and not an asterix. Dave Richie was fired because he started the 2004 season 2-5 and was last in the West division. He would have kept coaching if we'd let him, but we didn't, because the results weren't there. You mentioned Doug Berry. He finished with a 27-26-1 record and had no longevity because players don't like getting screamed at from golf carts forever.

I get you don't like O'Shea for whatever reason, that's fine. But I stand by the stats that he's easily a top 5 coach and most neutral observers can at least see why a case could be made for top 3.
The raw, non cherry picked stats with some context:

Winning % - MOS is 9th in the modern era.

Playoff Win % - MOS is 4th after last year's 3 wins. He was 16% before that which was the worst playoff record of any bomber HC.

I'd expect that the 2nd most games coached would equal the 2nd most wins. There would be something terribly wrong if that wasn't true. It speaks to management having MOS' back more than MOS having a great coaching career.

MOS has 2 missed playoffs, 3 3rds and a 2nd on his resume. That doesn't speak of dominant teams.

Now you know the story behind the stats.
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Sir Blue and Gold
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« Reply #27 on: August 22, 2020, 02:33:50 PM »

I'm looking at MOS's entire career, not just last year. That's how you properly assess a career. If you're arguing that MOS had a good year last year, then I agree. If the argument is that MOS is a great coach, then I don't.

Last year was the first time that they didn't just go with the guys that had been with the team for the entire year. They actually kept bringing players in until the final day, which is one of the big reasons that they turned the corner in the playoffs. Notice that I'm saying they, not MOS, because it's Walters who brought them in.

MOS went with Collaros when Streveler got injured. McGuire didn't have a single start under his belt. That's not the ultimate non-loyalty move. It's the only move to make if you want to win. MOS wouldn't have won any playoff games and would likely have been fired if he didn't make that move.
The raw, non cherry picked stats with some context:

Winning % - MOS is 9th in the modern era.

Playoff Win % - MOS is 4th after last year's 3 wins. He was 16% before that which was the worst playoff record of any bomber HC.

I'd expect that the 2nd most games coached would equal the 2nd most wins. There would be something terribly wrong if that wasn't true. It speaks to management having MOS' back more than MOS having a great coaching career.

MOS has 2 missed playoffs, 3 3rds and a 2nd on his resume. That doesn't speak of dominant teams.

Now you know the story behind the stats.

Lol, "the story behind the stats". Whenever someone has to say that, they're doing their best to discredit raw stats. You might think he's not a good coach, but the fact is he's accomplished more than any Bomber coach in 30 years. The only other guys of note that won Grey Cups are: Bud Grant (4), Mike Reilly (2), Cal Murphy (1) and Mike O'Shea (1).

That's a pretty good list to be on. And by the way, your bias is showing big time when you want to credit Walters for all the good stuff. Grant, Reilly and Murphy all had really good teams to work with too. But their GMs don't get all the credit, right? You need good coaching and managing to be successful in any professional sport.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2020, 02:37:54 PM by Sir Blue and Gold » Logged
TBURGESS
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« Reply #28 on: August 22, 2020, 04:33:25 PM »

I'm not discrediting the stats. I'm explaining them.

I'm not giving Walters credit for everything. I'm giving him credit for bringing in the players and fitting them in under the SMS, because that's his job. I'm not giving credit to any of the other HC's for their GM work either.

We're not that much apart actually. Your love and bias for MOS puts him at 4th based on his Grey Cup win. My bias and hate puts him at 6th based on everything, including the Grey Cup win.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2020, 04:37:10 PM by TBURGESS » Logged

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TecnoGenius
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« Reply #29 on: August 23, 2020, 05:43:03 AM »

I'd guess during the season KW doesn't make too many acquisition moves without major consultation with MOS and the appropriate coord.  I bet MOS points out positional weaknesses and maybe even potential candidates and KW makes it happen.

KW doesn't just suddenly bring in a Maston or a Taylor for no reason and tell MOS to play them.

My point about placing more emphasis on 2019 is that I think the choices and methodology we saw in 2019 is MOS.  It wasn't the aberration: it's the cumulative result of all his years of growth and study.  You make it sound like 2020 could have been another 2014 MOS.  I'm saying that's impossible.  One thing you notice studying MOS and KW is that it's +1 every single year.  I think they are brilliant at it.
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