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Poll
Question: Will the CFL survive in it's current form?
yes - 16 (53.3%)
no - 9 (30%)
Maybe - 5 (16.7%)
Total Voters: 30

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Author Topic: Will the CFL survive in it's current form?  (Read 18588 times)
pjrocksmb
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« on: August 17, 2020, 10:48:02 PM »

Nothing is more depressing than a season lost than the possibility of the CFL folding.  Thoughts?
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blue_or_die
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« Reply #1 on: August 18, 2020, 01:50:47 AM »

I wish I had some useful insight to offer. Overall I think the CFL will survive but I can?t guarantee that?s more than just my wishful thinking.

One thing I?m pretty sure of: the fate will heavily depend on what?s going on in the minds of private owners. I hope that if there are hearts not fully committed to their teams, that those teams can somehow transition to a community ownership model. I think that route might be the only thing that makes the CFL as we know it viable. It works well for Winnipeg, Sask and Edmonton.
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dd
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« Reply #2 on: August 18, 2020, 02:33:04 AM »

The league isn't going anywhere. Ya it sucks the season is formally cancelled, but we knew this was coming. No surprise here at all. We'll get through this
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TecnoGenius
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« Reply #3 on: August 18, 2020, 09:19:07 AM »

Need a "maybe" option.  Too early to tell.  Based on their "working together" and "finding solutions" so far, I'd say it doesn't look good.
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« Reply #4 on: August 18, 2020, 10:00:14 AM »

At the very least there will be a huge turn over of players. Will enough people feel ok in a large crowd? That can only be answered next year. Will the salary cap have to go down? If it did would the players strike? Giant question marks are all I see right now and I feel sick about it.
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Sec223
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« Reply #5 on: August 18, 2020, 11:04:43 AM »

Fold the league. Come back with no union and a smaller salary cap. Raise the minimum salary however no player should be making over 300K. There are enough players to fill teams.
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bigbuff33
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« Reply #6 on: August 18, 2020, 11:57:19 AM »

Not in its present format...

If there is going to be a CFL, something must be done about the big market teams...Montreal, Toronto and Vancouver...the so called smaller seats love their teams...and if necessary, I'd play a 6 team league until the big cities show they ccare.
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TBURGESS
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« Reply #7 on: August 18, 2020, 12:08:10 PM »

All I can say is I hope it survives in any form.
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Winnipeg Blue Bombers - 2019 Grey Cup Champs.
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« Reply #8 on: August 18, 2020, 01:58:09 PM »

Fold the league. Come back with no union and a smaller salary cap. Raise the minimum salary however no player should be making over 300K. There are enough players to fill teams.

The minimum salary was already going up. I'd be surprised if there was no CFLPA but they are going to have to be willing to adjust to the new reality.

If they do that I wouldn't expect it would be necessary to actually fold and start from scratch.

OTOH, if we find out all contracts are null and void then in effect that's what happens I suppose.
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blue_gold_84
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« Reply #9 on: August 18, 2020, 03:03:19 PM »

Fold the league. Come back with no union and a smaller salary cap. Raise the minimum salary however no player should be making over 300K. There are enough players to fill teams.

No way the league folds, at least not without a serious fight. We're barely 24 hours into the cancelation of the 2020 season, anyway. Let's see how things go over the next few months.

Also, there's no way to have a CFL without a CFLPA. A union is an integral part of the league and ensuring players' rights are respected.

Needless to say, the CFL will need to retool and restructure itself to stay afloat. How that comes to fruition is beyond me at this point but I still don't see the CFL dying on account of this missed season.

Not in its present format...

If there is going to be a CFL, something must be done about the big market teams...Montreal, Toronto and Vancouver...the so called smaller seats love their teams...and if necessary, I'd play a 6 team league until the big cities show they ccare.

Without the three major urban centres, how can there be a reasonable TV deal? Like it or not, the CFL needs those three big cities, even if they struggle to fill seats.
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#forthew

Slava Ukraini!
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« Reply #10 on: August 18, 2020, 03:29:51 PM »

The league has had its fair share of ups and downs over the years. There was the failed US expansion, the dark days of the late 90s and the folding of the Ottawa franchise (twice). Prior to the current iteration of the CFL, the league survived two world wars, several large identity crises and a host of other challenges.

I think the federal government will eventually come to the aid of the league in 2021 and they'll get a full season in. Whether they have to change the business model is probably the biggest question mark but if they do, and they get it right, there is every chance the league comes back stronger.

The answer to the question largely comes down to your definition of "current form". There will be changes to players, the CBA and likely a bunch of other things we can't anticipate yet. Do I think we'll have nine teams play 18 games and a playoffs next year? Yes.

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Blue In BC
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« Reply #11 on: August 18, 2020, 03:58:44 PM »

I said it before but I'll make a few comments and suggestions based on poor financial viability of CFL teams mentioned in the news.

1. 2019 was the wrong time to implement a Global player into the roster. Technically he replaced a # 3 QB or a Canadian in the 46man roster. However he added 1 additional cost to salary spend ( outside SMS ).
 
In 2020 we were to add another Global player ( outside SMS ) which meant 1 less Canadian space available on the 46 man roster. 

Additionally we would have needed to increase the PR for Global players to have some injury depth and development. That would also increase the total expenses.

2. In 2020 there was another odd change with the grandfathered import ratio change but needing to start 3 of them. Didn't make any sense to me.

My thoughts going into 2021 and beyond:

1. Eliminate the global player roster inclusion. Or at the very least put them inside the SMS and make them qualify as imports. If the 2nd player is actually eliminating 1 Canadian spot, who are we kidding about the ratio anyway? Yes I liked Hansen but he was effectively just another DI. That would be true if a 2nd was added.

2. Eliminate the grandfathered import suggestion. Since they could only replace another import, they'd already be starting. At best a DI might qualify but he'd still only replace another import which is what DI's do.

All of that is finding ways to side step Canadians as back ups IMO.

3. Reduce the roster from 46 to 42.  1 less QB leaves a question on the other 3 player reductions. Eliminating the 1st global would be one and is somewhat of a trade off in the off set of no # 3 QB. Eliminating the proposed 2nd global player is another trade off of the Canadian spot that was going to be lost anyway?

Now the question is do we actually reduce the one more Canadian or do we eliminate 1 DI? IMO we eliminate another Canadian.

4. Reduce the SMS to $4.5M. Eliminating 4 ELC's and 2 global salaries outside the SMS is 6 X $65K = $390K Reducing the SMS by the $700K means about $1.1M total reduction. It's a start.

All the toying around with the new ratio ideas wasn't going to help the Canadians retain roster spots and get playing time.

The CFL could suggest more radical changes to the roster but I'd start with what I've said above.

Obviously I'd like to retain 46 players if possible. However reducing the roster is a significant way to reduce spend. It will come down to how much reduction is really needed and which is the less painful way to achieve it. Less players, lower SMS, a combination of both or one or the other. Pick your poison.

« Last Edit: August 18, 2020, 04:10:55 PM by Blue In BC » Logged

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Donny C
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« Reply #12 on: August 18, 2020, 04:37:18 PM »

The CFL will survive!

It will look different (though nobody knows exactly what that will look like).

The business model must change. Crisis causes organizations to make changes that they should have earlier but previously had every excuse not to make. Don't waste a crisis.
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TBURGESS
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« Reply #13 on: August 18, 2020, 04:42:05 PM »

I'm not sure the business model will or even should change. It mostly works during normal times. Businesses don't need their plan to work in pandemic years that come about a hundred years apart.
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« Reply #14 on: August 18, 2020, 04:53:02 PM »

I'm not sure the business model will or even should change. It mostly works during normal times. Businesses don't need their plan to work in pandemic years that come about a hundred years apart.

The CFL is the only Winnipeg sports league that couldn't afford to play this year. NHL, CPL, IPB (Goldeyes) all made it work. The gate driven business was under a lot of stress even before the pandemic. It might continue to work here but that model was already struggling in BC, Montreal and Toronto which represents 33% of the league. How an year off affects vulnerable markets remains to be seen. Hopefully we have a COVID solution by next spring, but if we don't then what? The league surely needs to start planning for that today. If they couldn't make the finances work for a shortened 6-game outing this year then an 18-game season is mathematically about three times more difficult should fans not be able to attend or decide to mostly stay away.
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the paw
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« Reply #15 on: August 18, 2020, 04:53:31 PM »

I'm not sure the business model will or even should change. It mostly works during normal times. Businesses don't need their plan to work in pandemic years that come about a hundred years apart.

The CFL needs to continue revenue diversification.  Whether CFL 2.0 is  the best way to do that is an open question, but if we don't see some way to rely less on the gate and more on new revenues like streaming, it can't last.  Right now, teams can break even or make a modest profit on $25-$30 million per year in revenues.  But with gate attendance falling off in many major sports, including the CFL, this is an urgent matter.

I don't know if the private owners have as much success in raising sponsorship dollars.  It is a significant revenue source for the community owned teams.  I presume it is a lot easier to talk a local business into a sponsorship for a community team than it is to have them improve the bottom line for David Braley, but I don't know that for a fact.  

Some sort of revenue sharing seems logical, but it would mean more transparency and less Hollywood accounting from the private owners.  Maybe a national sponsorship program that shares revenue would be helpful.  I can't see teams sharing gate revenue.  
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blue_gold_84
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« Reply #16 on: August 18, 2020, 05:14:03 PM »

I'm not sure the business model will or even should change. It mostly works during normal times. Businesses don't need their plan to work in pandemic years that come about a hundred years apart.

The CFL lost $20M in 2019. How is that "mostly working" during normal times?
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Slava Ukraini!
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« Reply #17 on: August 18, 2020, 05:21:27 PM »

The CFL lost $20M in 2019. How is that "mostly working" during normal times?

I've heard that report but I'd like to know a lot more about how that broke down. The league carried the Als for all or most of 2019. I don't know if the new owners paid any sort of franchise fee to offset that fact.

Even with that I find it hard to believe the $20M figure without more explanation.
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blue_gold_84
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« Reply #18 on: August 18, 2020, 05:29:23 PM »

I've heard that report but I'd like to know a lot more about how that broke down. The league carried the Als for all or most of 2019. I don't know if the new owners paid any sort of franchise fee to offset that fact.

Even with that I find it hard to believe the $20M figure without more explanation.

This is true. I'd also like to know what its gains and losses were for previous years to get a clearer picture on its profitability.

Needless to say, I'm not sure how well its business model works during normal times. There just isn't enough transparency from the CFL to get a objective view, IMO.
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Slava Ukraini!
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« Reply #19 on: August 18, 2020, 05:45:33 PM »

Does anyone believe some of these clubs don't know what their "business" model is?
The. Montreal situation of losing $20 million is in my opinion unbelieveable.

How are they still,operating?
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Blue In BC
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« Reply #20 on: August 18, 2020, 05:50:17 PM »

What's clear is that attendance is down for a multitude of reasons. I'd expect that trend to continue and be even more apparent in 2021.

Not just because of the previous trending. Covid uncertainty and the financial recovery period for many fans around the country. There is going to be hardship for many people for quite a while.

IMO I think in some of the bigger markets the marketing isn't helping their cases. BC is the perfect example. A stadium that seats 55K and can only get 25K on a good day.

To some degree they've over priced their tickets. We'd have to see the books but are less fans better than more fans at the same net revenue? Financially you might say that works but take a deeper dive.

More fans in the stands are building the fan base for the future. Advertisers will are always going to want to reach more people than less people.

40K - 50K in BC Place is better than 20K even if it generates the same revenue IMO. However IMO a different ticket cost structure would increase revenue.

BC seemed to think that by closing the upper level seating to reduce capacity improved the supply / demand and desire for tickets at higher prices. That proved to be false.
« Last Edit: August 18, 2020, 05:52:07 PM by Blue In BC » Logged

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the paw
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« Reply #21 on: August 18, 2020, 06:15:05 PM »

I've heard that report but I'd like to know a lot more about how that broke down. The league carried the Als for all or most of 2019. I don't know if the new owners paid any sort of franchise fee to offset that fact.

Even with that I find it hard to believe the $20M figure without more explanation.

Each team paid over $600k to the league to repay the 2018 losses that the CFL absorbed. That would show on each teams books for 2019. So that is a little under $5 million of the $20 m.

That means the 6 private teams lost a total of about $15 m, or about $2.5 million each.  When teams like the Argos and Lions fire head coaches, they may be incurring some of that loss rather than using their mulligan. 

Bombers averaged $1.2m - $1.3 million per game on average attendance of 26,000+, and they broke even.  BC and Montreal had about 65% of the attendance figures, which means each of those teams probably lost about $3.8 million.  Argos only had attendance at 50% so they probably lost $5.6 million.  Those three teams (with worst attendance) add up to $13 million. 

So, $13 million for poor attendance, $5 million for Alouettes fiasco, and you are basically there. 

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TBURGESS
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« Reply #22 on: August 18, 2020, 06:19:57 PM »

Some teams make money. Some teams lose money. Some teams only make money when the team is realistically in the hunt for the Grey Cup. IMO that's mostly working in normal times as it's remained mostly viable for 100 years or more.

I'm not sure I believe the 20 Mil loss is real money because no one has come out and said exactly how they got to that number. In any case, 2019 is the first year that I've heard that the CFL was losing that much money.

It's great to say that the CFL has to move away from reliance on gate revenues, but the question is how? (I don't have the answers, just a bunch of questions)

Costs:  
Reduce the SMS? Would the CFLPA be on board?
Cap the players salaries? Would either the CFLPA or the owners be on board?
Cap the coaches and other staff salaries? CFLPA would be on board, but would the coaches or owners go for it?
Reduce the number of players per team? Would any of the CFLPA, the owners or coaches be on board? How many would you have to reduce it to make 20 mill of difference anyway?

Revenues:
TSN pays the most, would they be willing to pay even more or would the fill the air time with cheaper alternatives?
Advertisers pay more for more eyes, so you need to increase the number of people who watch. How?
CFL 2.0? Maybe in a decade or two if it works.
Revenue sharing? It's hard enough trying to get owners without telling them if you do well, you'll have to share your profits and if you don't, you'll get money from the other owners. It's the opposite of fostering a competitive environment that sports relies on.  
Analyze more fans at less per ticket vs less fans at more per ticket. (Likely already has been done.)

Rules:
Reduce or remove the number required NI's? Less NI's = Less competition for their services = Less pay per player. More imports = Less cost than NI's due to supply. How many less eyes on the product with less NI's considering that more Imp's = better football?
Go to NFL rules? Some think this would work better and would allow for a US TV contract. The CFL is already a feeder league for the NFL.
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« Reply #23 on: August 18, 2020, 06:42:00 PM »

Each team paid over $600k to the league to repay the 2018 losses that the CFL absorbed. That would show on each teams books for 2019. So that is a little under $5 million of the $20 m.

That means the 6 private teams lost a total of about $15 m, or about $2.5 million each.  When teams like the Argos and Lions fire head coaches, they may be incurring some of that loss rather than using their mulligan. 

Bombers averaged $1.2m - $1.3 million per game on average attendance of 26,000+, and they broke even.  BC and Montreal had about 65% of the attendance figures, which means each of those teams probably lost about $3.8 million.  Argos only had attendance at 50% so they probably lost $5.6 million.  Those three teams (with worst attendance) add up to $13 million. 

So, $13 million for poor attendance, $5 million for Alouettes fiasco, and you are basically there. 



Thanks. That's good information.
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Blue In BC
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« Reply #24 on: August 18, 2020, 06:45:46 PM »

Some teams make money. Some teams lose money. Some teams only make money when the team is realistically in the hunt for the Grey Cup. IMO that's mostly working in normal times as it's remained mostly viable for 100 years or more.

I'm not sure I believe the 20 Mil loss is real money because no one has come out and said exactly how they got to that number. In any case, 2019 is the first year that I've heard that the CFL was losing that much money.

It's great to say that the CFL has to move away from reliance on gate revenues, but the question is how? (I don't have the answers, just a bunch of questions)

Costs:  
Reduce the SMS? Would the CFLPA be on board?
Cap the players salaries? Would either the CFLPA or the owners be on board?
Cap the coaches and other staff salaries? CFLPA would be on board, but would the coaches or owners go for it?
Reduce the number of players per team? Would any of the CFLPA, the owners or coaches be on board? How many would you have to reduce it to make 20 mill of difference anyway?

Revenues:
TSN pays the most, would they be willing to pay even more or would the fill the air time with cheaper alternatives?
Advertisers pay more for more eyes, so you need to increase the number of people who watch. How?
CFL 2.0? Maybe in a decade or two if it works.
Revenue sharing? It's hard enough trying to get owners without telling them if you do well, you'll have to share your profits and if you don't, you'll get money from the other owners. It's the opposite of fostering a competitive environment that sports relies on.  
Analyze more fans at less per ticket vs less fans at more per ticket. (Likely already has been done.)

Rules:
Reduce or remove the number required NI's? Less NI's = Less competition for their services = Less pay per player. More imports = Less cost than NI's due to supply. How many less eyes on the product with less NI's considering that more Imp's = better football?
Go to NFL rules? Some think this would work better and would allow for a US TV contract. The CFL is already a feeder league for the NFL.


I understand your point about players or owners not being on board possibly to some SMS changes etc.

The hard reality is there may not be better alternatives if they are losing money. It's just business 101.
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pjrocksmb
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« Reply #25 on: August 19, 2020, 02:07:46 AM »

Need a "maybe" option.  Too early to tell.  Based on their "working together" and "finding solutions" so far, I'd say it doesn't look good.


Added

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/cfl-analysis-covid19-fans-revenue-1.5690149
« Last Edit: August 19, 2020, 02:16:53 AM by pjrocksmb » Logged

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Go Big Blue
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« Reply #26 on: August 19, 2020, 04:26:56 AM »

Once there is a tested and proven COVID 19 vaccine available there will definetley be changes to what is safe and what venues can open so a pandemic reoccurrence can be mitigated. There will have to be discussions on what to do for those that choose not to have the vaccine. Hoping that early 2021 is the the time frame we are looking at as 2020 CFL season has now been officially cancelled. There will be new normals we will have to deal with so the CFL will have changes implemented but you would sure hope that the basic on field experience of 3 down Canadian football with fans in the stands is what we end up with.
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TecnoGenius
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« Reply #27 on: August 19, 2020, 07:01:25 AM »


Good article.  Dude must read the Bombers Forum!  Cheesy

Quote
"What we're going to do is figure out a way to live with COVID and and get our fans back in stadiums," Miller said.

"June is a long time away and we'll cross that bridge when we get to it. But our focus is having our fans back in the stadium for 2021."

Just what I've been saying.  No guarantee of a vaccine.  No guarantee it fizzles out on its own.

All of you who said put a fork in 2020 because of covid, do you want to put a fork in 2021 also?  What about 2022?  Spanish Flu took 3 years to burn out.  Covid could do the same.

WM is the smartest man in that room.  Need to find a way to get fans in the stands even if covid is exactly the same as it is today.  Government needs to get out of the way and let grown adults make their own decisions based on their own risk factors if covid is for 1, 2, 3 more years.  Is this a free country or not?

If the financials said CFL can't afford to play even just a 6-game 2020 without fans, then how on earth can they play without fans in 2021, if that's what it comes to?  Feds wouldn't lend $30M for 2020, but we're to expect they'll lend us $60M (or whatever) to play a full season fan-less in 2021?  Pffffttt.

The CFL and owners need to come out immediately and say they will have a 2021 season, and that season will have fans in the stands.  Period.  If the hide-in-your-basement government wants to stand in their way come April 2021, let everyone see who the real impediment is.

And now what about the teams that already said they couldn't afford to miss even just 2020?  Were they lying, or are a couple of teams about to fold for good?
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« Reply #28 on: August 19, 2020, 07:05:00 AM »

The CFL is the only Winnipeg sports league that couldn't afford to play this year. NHL, CPL, IPB (Goldeyes) all made it work.

That's really pathetic that we were out-leagued by the Goldeyes league.  Beaten by Goldeyes and soccer.  Hell, we were even beaten by the bankrupt defunct XFL because they'll take to the field long before the CFL does.  We worried about XFL talent-drain before?  Now CFL players have a legit reason to bail for the XFL as at this moment in time the XFL looks more stable and financially viable!!

Sad.  Pathetic.
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Blue In BC
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« Reply #29 on: August 19, 2020, 01:04:33 PM »

Good article.  Dude must read the Bombers Forum!  Cheesy

Just what I've been saying.  No guarantee of a vaccine.  No guarantee it fizzles out on its own.

All of you who said put a fork in 2020 because of covid, do you want to put a fork in 2021 also?  What about 2022?  Spanish Flu took 3 years to burn out.  Covid could do the same.

WM is the smartest man in that room.  Need to find a way to get fans in the stands even if covid is exactly the same as it is today.  Government needs to get out of the way and let grown adults make their own decisions based on their own risk factors if covid is for 1, 2, 3 more years.  Is this a free country or not?

If the financials said CFL can't afford to play even just a 6-game 2020 without fans, then how on earth can they play without fans in 2021, if that's what it comes to?  Feds wouldn't lend $30M for 2020, but we're to expect they'll lend us $60M (or whatever) to play a full season fan-less in 2021?  Pffffttt.

The CFL and owners need to come out immediately and say they will have a 2021 season, and that season will have fans in the stands.  Period.  If the hide-in-your-basement government wants to stand in their way come April 2021, let everyone see who the real impediment is.

And now what about the teams that already said they couldn't afford to miss even just 2020?  Were they lying, or are a couple of teams about to fold for good?


You're sounding a bit unhinged lately. You're wanting to jump the hurdles needlessly at this point. There are many sports and large entertainment business's that don't know what will happen in 2021.

NHL and MLB bubbles may not be realistic for entire 2021 seasons. Neither have guaranteed a return of fans in the stands either. That may make full seasons unrealistic financially.

Schools / colleges across Canada and USA are struggling to see whether it's safe to send people back to class. High school sports activities have been curtailed as well.

Obviously some are saying re-start everything and let the chips fall where they may. Bars, nightclubs, beaches are quickly becoming new hot spots.

Relax, put on your mask when necessary and be part of the solution. Convince your friends to do the same. Let the science and progress made as we move forward help make new decisions.

No it's not a free country where an individuals rights overrule those set by society for the benefit of the whole. That's been discussed at length.

Your argument sounds like one we might hear from an anti vaxxer or those refusing to wear masks etc.

« Last Edit: August 19, 2020, 02:55:56 PM by Blue In BC » Logged

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pjrocksmb
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« Reply #30 on: August 21, 2020, 10:48:36 PM »

You're sounding a bit unhinged lately. You're wanting to jump the hurdles needlessly at this point. There are many sports and large entertainment business's that don't know what will happen in 2021.

NHL and MLB bubbles may not be realistic for entire 2021 seasons. Neither have guaranteed a return of fans in the stands either. That may make full seasons unrealistic financially.

Schools / colleges across Canada and USA are struggling to see whether it's safe to send people back to class. High school sports activities have been curtailed as well.

Obviously some are saying re-start everything and let the chips fall where they may. Bars, nightclubs, beaches are quickly becoming new hot spots.

Relax, put on your mask when necessary and be part of the solution. Convince your friends to do the same. Let the science and progress made as we move forward help make new decisions.

No it's not a free country where an individuals rights overrule those set by society for the benefit of the whole. That's been discussed at length.

Your argument sounds like one we might hear from an anti vaxxer or those refusing to wear masks etc.



Agree with what you are saying
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« Reply #31 on: August 22, 2020, 02:00:13 AM »

That's really pathetic that we were out-leagued by the Goldeyes league.  Beaten by Goldeyes and soccer.  Hell, we were even beaten by the bankrupt defunct XFL because they'll take to the field long before the CFL does.  We worried about XFL talent-drain before?  Now CFL players have a legit reason to bail for the XFL as at this moment in time the XFL looks more stable and financially viable!!

Sad.  Pathetic.

I get you?re frustrated but the XFL starting up in the virus plagued US of A, never.
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blue_or_die
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« Reply #32 on: August 22, 2020, 11:18:02 AM »


All of you who said put a fork in 2020 because of covid, do you want to put a fork in 2021 also?  What about 2022?  Spanish Flu took 3 years to burn out.  Covid could do the same.

WM is the smartest man in that room.  Need to find a way to get fans in the stands even if covid is exactly the same as it is today.  Government needs to get out of the way and let grown adults make their own decisions based on their own risk factors if covid is for 1, 2, 3 more years.  Is this a free country or not?

If the financials said CFL can't afford to play even just a 6-game 2020 without fans, then how on earth can they play without fans in 2021, if that's what it comes to?  Feds wouldn't lend $30M for 2020, but we're to expect they'll lend us $60M (or whatever) to play a full season fan-less in 2021?  Pffffttt.

The CFL and owners need to come out immediately and say they will have a 2021 season, and that season will have fans in the stands.  Period.  If the hide-in-your-basement government wants to stand in their way come April 2021, let everyone see who the real impediment is.

And now what about the teams that already said they couldn't afford to miss even just 2020?  Were they lying, or are a couple of teams about to fold for good?


You've said this before (multiple times, actually), and so I'll quote myself from another thread where you did not address my response:

Then those adults who made that decision would also be directly responsible for putting themselves in a position to contract the virus and unknowingly spread it to others they interact with. That's how outbreaks happen.

It always baffles me that people think the reason to take precaution is about your own personal health and should therefore be left for you to decide, but in reality it's the fact that in making such a decision you're directly affecting others.

It's like me saying I feel perfectly comfortable and safe pounding back 10 whiskeys and driving home, and so it should be my personal decision to do so. But that decision will not affect only me if things don't go as pretty as I originally expected.

from: http://forums.bluebombers.com/index.php?topic=52865.45
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Blue In BC
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« Reply #33 on: August 22, 2020, 02:29:15 PM »

My head is exploding today with this mornings announcement allowing players to opt out of contracts as of Monday.

A very sad day. IMO we'll be back but it's going to be something new and uncomfortable in at least the 1st season.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2020, 12:53:45 PM by Blue In BC » Logged

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buckzumhoff
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« Reply #34 on: August 22, 2020, 02:48:12 PM »

Montreal will be looking for handouts . Toronto  the same. Bc overspend and overpay one player. They like player auctions.   Like to see the CFL join with another league. Or have it the same but no paying out at the end of the year. They should have played. Would have cut losses . Just like the NHL had done.  Let teams like montreal toronto sink and look to other cities in the states to join.
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Blue In BC
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« Reply #35 on: August 22, 2020, 03:52:44 PM »

Montreal will be looking for handouts . Toronto  the same. Bc overspend and overpay one player. They like player auctions.   Like to see the CFL join with another league. Or have it the same but no paying out at the end of the year. They should have played. Would have cut losses . Just like the NHL had done.  Let teams like montreal toronto sink and look to other cities in the states to join.

The SMS is the same for every team so paying too much for any player is a nearly irrelevant comment.

Playing  a shortened season would have cost more than not playing. At least that's true in the short term. Whether that was a good idea in the long term is and will be discussed in the next few months. The ultimate outcome is TBD?

The NHL played to complete a season already in progress and has deeper pockets and previous revenue streams.

I'm not completely certain any version of the CFL could survive losing 2 of the largest Canadian cities.

There is no other league to join. The XFL isn't going to be interested in a forced ratio to retain a bunch of Canadian players. The XFL rosters will be built on open competition. I'm not sure what you meant about no paying out at the end of the year?

We know another American CFL franchise idea is a bad idea. Especially if we lose 1 or 2 of Vancouver, Toronto or Montreal. However I could see Montreal not returning in 2021 if there actually is a CFL.

IIRC the previous experience with teams in the US allowed them to play with no ratio requirements. Lose an existing team ( or more ) and adding US teams with no ratio? YIKES!!!!!!!!!!! Baltimore made the Grey Cup in both of their only seasons.



« Last Edit: August 22, 2020, 04:06:36 PM by Blue In BC » Logged

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buckzumhoff
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« Reply #36 on: August 22, 2020, 04:09:36 PM »

The largest city doesnt show up. They're attendance is 10,000. That's why Toronto doesnt have the want to play. They dont have fans telling them to play. TV will always pay no matter which cities are in it. Less money wont matter because wont have to bail teams out . CFL should have played but between Toronto and some players complaining .they should have decided to play with the players who were willing and the cities who would play and let the others sit. In fact it might have been an improvement . Could have had 6 or 7 teams on a 6 game season .would have functioned even better.
 
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Blue In BC
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« Reply #37 on: August 22, 2020, 05:13:12 PM »

The largest city doesnt show up. They're attendance is 10,000. That's why Toronto doesnt have the want to play. They dont have fans telling them to play. TV will always pay no matter which cities are in it. Less money wont matter because wont have to bail teams out . CFL should have played but between Toronto and some players complaining .they should have decided to play with the players who were willing and the cities who would play and let the others sit. In fact it might have been an improvement . Could have had 6 or 7 teams on a 6 game season .would have functioned even better.
 

That's true about live attendance figures. TV advertising is about big audiences watching - potentially. Therein lies the difference. Those watching may be declining but I believe still significant numbers.

What is the total population of Vancouver, Toronto and Montreal greater surrounding area? TSN isn't going to be as interested in capturing Saskatoon, Kenora or Moncton audiences . TV doesn't always pay when those watching goes away.

I'll disagree with your suggestion. It's more desperation than a reality check. A few games with some teams not playing or other teams playing losing a bunch of players from their rosters?

That's an even worse idea than a 6 game season with all 9 teams.

Canadian and US colleges/ universities for the most part are choosing to NOT PLAY due to Covid concerns.

We have no idea how many CFL players would decline playing a partial season. The salaries for most are not high enough unlike the major US leagues.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2020, 05:29:33 PM by Blue In BC » Logged

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Blue In BC
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« Reply #38 on: August 22, 2020, 05:16:39 PM »

2019 CFL TV numbers.

A bit of a struggle to start. These are TSN ratings taken from 3DownNation through the first four weeks and do not include any RDS numbers

    Week One - the four games averaged 523,400 down 10% from Week One 2018

    Week Two - the four games averaged 409,000 down 16% from Week 2 last year
2019 CFL viewership 1st 4 games.

    Week Three - the four games averaged 529,000 - with a boost from the 764,000 post-lightning delay on Canada Day for Argos @ Riders. Before the delay the telecast had been averaging 502,600 for an overall average for that game of 633,700.

    Week Four - the four games averaged 511,175. The great - 722,000 for Stamps - Riders. The good - 545,200 for Bombers - Redblacks. The not so good - 399,000 for Cats @ Als (I would assume 500,000+ once RDS numbers were included). The ugly - the Lions - Argos game - 378,500.

Overall through four weeks the TSN average is 493,362. That is down from 524,462 through 4 weeks of 2018 but is fairly close to the 498,312 through 4 weeks in 2017.

Clearly there are more watching games on TV than live.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2020, 05:18:44 PM by Blue In BC » Logged

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DM83
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« Reply #39 on: August 22, 2020, 07:08:48 PM »

I have always wondered how a dump like Toronto can't attract fans, Same with BC.  Their facilities require a university degree to get to.  Think of planning for a family vacation.

Why bother, if it's on TV.  What essentially is a day trip vs. Sitting at home in comfort.  Both are Located in a concrete jungle.

Certainly, if you make a day of it or live downtown, maybe that could be fun, otherwise, parking has to be a planned event in itself.  Obviously why pay for a crappy product, when staying home could be free.  The other cities are easy to get to, and the game itself could be a nice evening out.

Quite frankly, is there a market for the CFL product?  Not in those two cities....at least not in attending.
I have been to games in both cities.  One of the first questions was ....how do I get in? In both cases I was staying in a hotel downtown, so the walk to the facility was five minutes.  That's the point driving in from The burbs?  In Toronto we came the day before.  In BC we had o walk blocks and blocks.  I seem to remember the go train. Stop was blocks and blocks away.

With a. Group of over 30 yr old males, no prob.
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BlueInCgy
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« Reply #40 on: August 22, 2020, 08:28:31 PM »

I have always wondered how a dump like Toronto can't attract fans, Same with BC.  Their facilities require a university degree to get to.  

Simple answer is they have way more entertainment options available for people to spend their disposable income on, and CFL doesn't rank high enough on the list.  Both have NHL, CFL, MLS teams, add to that NBA and MLB in Toronto.  Couple that with more games/teams available just across the border in Washington/New York, and the CFL product just can't draw against those.  And that's ignoring the relative size of the arts options available, which also draws from the disposable income fund.  It will be interesting to see if the Seattle NHL franchise has an impact on Canucks attendance.

As far as location goes, BC Place is right beside Rogers Centre, and you don't need a university degree to get there.  It's accessible by Skytrain fairly easily, it's not too great a walk from downtown, and it's not hard to find.  I've never parked there, but I imagine it doesn't suck a whole lot more than anywhere else.

Reality is in Vancouver, the Whitecaps, Lions, and Canucks all average out very similar numbers of attendance, between 18K-19K per year.  Now, in the case of the Canucks that's pretty close to sell out, but it would seem to indicate that live sports crowd in Vancouver is definitely in the sub 20K range.
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dd
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« Reply #41 on: August 23, 2020, 01:52:50 AM »

You?re right, the bigger market BC and Toronto have a lot more sporting options for the almighty fan dollar. The CFL gets lost in the wash there
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buckzumhoff
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« Reply #42 on: August 23, 2020, 04:29:11 AM »

Winnipeg has a NHL team. An AHL team, a CFL team, baseball team and a soccer team. . I dont see more teams. I see less sports fans in Toronto and Vancouver. That's why the NFL wont go to Toronto not even for an exhibition game anymore. .
 
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« Reply #43 on: August 23, 2020, 01:50:49 PM »

Interesting comment by Cohon in the article on 3downnation.  He sees a  sports betting platform as an unexploited potential revenue source. 

I think he may be onto something.  Imagine a league wide shared revenue stream that contributed $2-3 million to each teams revenues and took some pressure off ticket sales.  A betting platform would also generate significant opportunities for additional sponsors and advertisers.
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DM83
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« Reply #44 on: August 23, 2020, 11:45:42 PM »

The paw makes a good point.
New ideas for generating revenue is needed.
Why don't the Bombers ask the government to,set up a casino like addition to the lounge, like the Jets have at the Shark Club.?  Make it work.
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« Reply #45 on: August 31, 2020, 01:42:59 AM »

The paw makes a good point.
New ideas for generating revenue is needed.
Why don't the Bombers ask the government to,set up a casino like addition to the lounge, like the Jets have at the Shark Club.?  Make it work.
Shark club works because of its location.  I don't think it wpuld work for the Bombers.
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Sec227
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« Reply #46 on: August 31, 2020, 02:10:40 PM »

Winnipeg has a NHL team. An AHL team, a CFL team, baseball team and a soccer team. . I dont see more teams. I see less sports fans in Toronto and Vancouver. That's why the NFL wont go to Toronto not even for an exhibition game anymore. .
 
NBA is the new juggernaut in the Toronto region. Tons and Tons of kids play more and more rec leagues. While football, in general terms is getting smaller. I wonder if say moving the argos to a less dense city of lets say London, would draw more fans?
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66 Chevelle
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« Reply #47 on: August 31, 2020, 02:56:21 PM »

praying for better news and the survival of the CFL...  hated it when I saw that the 2020 season was lost... hope all of my Canadian friends are doing well, the Chevelle is chugging along down here in the states but thinks about you guys all of the time... stay safe my friends...
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blue_or_die
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« Reply #48 on: August 31, 2020, 03:12:50 PM »

praying for better news and the survival of the CFL...  hated it when I saw that the 2020 season was lost... hope all of my Canadian friends are doing well, the Chevelle is chugging along down here in the states but thinks about you guys all of the time... stay safe my friends...

Great to see you around, and glad you are well.
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« Reply #49 on: August 31, 2020, 09:46:35 PM »

Great to see you around, and glad you are well.
Echo echo
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« Reply #50 on: September 01, 2020, 06:46:42 PM »

Shark club works because of its location.  I don't think it wpuld work for the Bombers.

Actually, given that there are no casinos in the south part of the city, and there's a large parking lot, it might work. I'm not sure how they would coordinate it with university classes, but perhaps if it was only open in the evenings and weekends.
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Sir Blue and Gold
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« Reply #51 on: September 02, 2020, 02:28:16 PM »

Actually, given that there are no casinos in the south part of the city, and there's a large parking lot, it might work. I'm not sure how they would coordinate it with university classes, but perhaps if it was only open in the evenings and weekends.

The U of M isn't going to allow a casino on their property. No way. Never.
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Throw Long Bannatyne
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« Reply #52 on: September 02, 2020, 02:38:04 PM »

The U of M isn't going to allow a casino on their property. No way. Never.

You never know, turn back time and I'm sure you might hear the following proclamation.  "The Manitoba government is not going to run casinos and use gambling revenue to help prop itself up. No way. Never."
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« Reply #53 on: September 02, 2020, 03:59:37 PM »

Shark club works because of its location.  I don't think it wpuld work for the Bombers.
put a casino on the U of M campus. I think that will work! Cheesy
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TecnoGenius
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« Reply #54 on: September 03, 2020, 05:13:05 AM »

praying for better news and the survival of the CFL...  hated it when I saw that the 2020 season was lost... hope all of my Canadian friends are doing well, the Chevelle is chugging along down here in the states but thinks about you guys all of the time... stay safe my friends...

Hey 66!  Finally, nice to hear from you!  How about that CUP man!!!  Were you there?
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66 Chevelle
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« Reply #55 on: September 03, 2020, 11:46:32 AM »

Hey 66!  Finally, nice to hear from you!  How about that CUP man!!!  Were you there?


what up! did not make it to the game, lost my passport when my truck burned up, but still have the game saved on my DVR and watch it from time to time... I was considering buying season tickets for this season until COVID hit... was thinking that maybe things would have cleared up by the time that the CFL season started and I have a huge credit with the airline right now as I had to cancel all my flights for the balance of the XFL season...  oh well... maybe the 2021 season, fingers crossed!
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GCn19
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« Reply #56 on: September 03, 2020, 02:46:26 PM »

what up! did not make it to the game, lost my passport when my truck burned up, but still have the game saved on my DVR and watch it from time to time... I was considering buying season tickets for this season until COVID hit... was thinking that maybe things would have cleared up by the time that the CFL season started and I have a huge credit with the airline right now as I had to cancel all my flights for the balance of the XFL season...  oh well... maybe the 2021 season, fingers crossed!

I actually like the XFL and thought with better QBing they might be onto something there. I am hopeful for the resumption of both the XFL and CFL in the near future.
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Sec227
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« Reply #57 on: September 03, 2020, 02:58:44 PM »

Maybe something like the NAFL, North America Football League. Combine the XFL and CFL, just the strongest teams. I get the ratio would have to go. But, if they end up getting some marquee names in some mid/big markets. Combine with the history of the CFL. It might be on to something. But, I get it looks like the US CFL 2.0. And thats not what Im talking about. Just make bigger moves for the survival of the game. CDN division, US division maybe even a Mexico Division. Mexico has 120 million people. Have to assume they can find players
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DM83
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« Reply #58 on: September 07, 2020, 02:47:59 PM »

U of M doesnt do anything. Oh sure maybe some research.  Doesn't do anything for the profile of Winnioeg.m what is it, second worst university  in themWorld according to McCleans?.

No casino in south part of city?, didn't know that....lots of. People out here.
Seems to be a lot of in the box thinking..

You have to accept out of the box thinking.
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Blue In BC
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« Reply #59 on: September 07, 2020, 03:38:07 PM »

Maybe something like the NAFL, North America Football League. Combine the XFL and CFL, just the strongest teams. I get the ratio would have to go. But, if they end up getting some marquee names in some mid/big markets. Combine with the history of the CFL. It might be on to something. But, I get it looks like the US CFL 2.0. And thats not what Im talking about. Just make bigger moves for the survival of the game. CDN division, US division maybe even a Mexico Division. Mexico has 120 million people. Have to assume they can find players

That's a complicated suggestion.  Playing fields in the USA and probably Mexico are not configured to the size of CFL fields.  Whose rules would be used? Ratio, roster size, SMS and even the CFLPA are all factors couldn't necessarily be applied in 2 other countries.

Generally your idea is basically another version of the NFL with a lower budget. That's what the XFL is already. Can't see how incorporating the CFL would work and still retain Canadian flavor.

Really this seems more whether a few Canadian teams could be " expanded " into the XFL.

IMO it's a not a good idea but an interesting conversation.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2020, 03:40:15 PM by Blue In BC » Logged

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blue_or_die
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« Reply #60 on: September 08, 2020, 12:27:57 AM »

U of M doesnt do anything. Oh sure maybe some research.  Doesn't do anything for the profile of Winnioeg.m what is it, second worst university  in themWorld according to McCleans?.


Another one of your gem comments
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blue_gold_84
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« Reply #61 on: September 08, 2020, 01:35:10 AM »

Another one of your gem comments

LOL

"Maybe some research." Cheesy
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Blue In BC
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« Reply #62 on: September 09, 2020, 03:23:38 PM »

Has anyone heard of any discussions on a go forward plan for 2021? My question is not about the Covid impact but a possible new business model and what that would mean.

I'd hope both sides are considering what needs to be done and what it takes to make it work.. Time flies.
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blue_or_die
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« Reply #63 on: September 09, 2020, 04:37:28 PM »

Has anyone heard of any discussions on a go forward plan for 2021? My question is not about the Covid impact but a possible new business model and what that would mean.

I'd hope both sides are considering what needs to be done and what it takes to make it work.. Time flies.

Crickets from the CFL
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Sec227
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« Reply #64 on: September 10, 2020, 01:00:00 PM »

Maybe it's a wait and see how the NFL does first. We know the CFL cant survive without fans VS the monster TV contract of the NFL. Even then, I keep reading that their Cap, the NFL's, is going to be flat next few years. No fans in stands, Way less money.
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Blue In BC
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« Reply #65 on: September 10, 2020, 01:25:07 PM »

Maybe it's a wait and see how the NFL does first. We know the CFL cant survive without fans VS the monster TV contract of the NFL. Even then, I keep reading that their Cap, the NFL's, is going to be flat next few years. No fans in stands, Way less money.

That's a Plan B question which they need to taken into account. My question was more about Plan A questions. I will be watching NFL non bubble format to see what happens from a safety point of view. Some teams will have fans initially and that may change up or down.

1. Is the financial business plan viable or does the SMS need to be adjusted.
2. Does that impact the roster size with a reduction in the AR.
3. What results from either 1 or 2 in regard to ratio.

Plan B is not being able to have fans in the stands for some or all of 2021 season. Can they make it work with other financing and / or covid solutions?

I've made earlier suggestions of what changes might be possible / feasible for Plan A. However, this was based on comments about league financial problems. Whether those are accurate only the league knows the extent for sure.

In a perfect world I'd like an increase in roster size and more money for players.  Pretty sure that is off the table.

I haven't seen too many ideas yet of what posters think might need to change except for broad stokes.

« Last Edit: September 10, 2020, 01:27:40 PM by Blue In BC » Logged

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the paw
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« Reply #66 on: September 10, 2020, 03:35:50 PM »

Based on the recent comments from Bob Young, Jim Hopson in 3down articles, and past comments from Braley and others, there is no clear consensus among the owners upon a different business model.  Don't expect to hear anything right away, they have a lot of work to figure this out.

In the meantime, here is my take on it:

1.  While we may see a reduction in roster sizes, there is little room to shrink the salary cap by any sizeable amount.  Arguments can be made for better distribution of earnings within the current cap, but such a small percentage of league revenues go to player already, large reductions really mean it would cease to be a professional league. 

2.  Revenue sharing has to be part of the new model, but with that comes a higher level of transparency. 

3.  The league has to maintain its recent cap on football operations staff, but now has to extend that to other departments.  The team presidents, VPs, marketing people, front office all have to tighten their belts.  I would argue this is the cost center that has grown exponentially over the past 25 years.

4.  The league needs to stay the course on Global players, and try to link this to new streaming services.  Global players will mean global fans, and they aren't coming to games, but they might subscribe to an internet feed to watch Panzer Boi blow people up. This also opens new avenues of sponsorship. 

5.  The league needs to monetize some kind of gaming platform, to allow sports betting that they get a piece of.  This is NOT vlts are the stadium, we are talking about football betting.  This could be substantial new revenue.

6.  All this will help reduce some costs and provide new revenue streams, and reduce reliance on gate revenues.  But at the end of the day, they have to find a way to get each team in the neighbourhood of 19k to 20k attendance.
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Blue In BC
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« Reply #67 on: September 10, 2020, 04:20:24 PM »

If there is a roster size reduction ( I had proposed 42 AR instead of 46 ) + global players inside the SMS, not outside the SMS. That could result in a direct offsetting reduction to the SMS. I had only suggested a 10% reduction to the SMS even if the AR remains at 46 players.

Adding a 2nd Global player eliminates 1 Canadian from the roster whether it stays at 46 or not. That defeats the Canadian ratio content expectation previously held. It's just a way of adding 2 more DI's IMO.

As much as I liked Hansen he was the exception not the rule. Adding a 2nd player and additional PR players just adds cost. At the moment it's a long term plan and not a luxury we can currently have if the financial issues are true.

I'm not expecting any responses soon but would like to hear they are in discussions. Could be a bitter series of talks.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2020, 04:32:56 PM by Blue In BC » Logged

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« Reply #68 on: September 10, 2020, 06:32:30 PM »

Based on the recent comments from Bob Young, Jim Hopson in 3down articles, and past comments from Braley and others, there is no clear consensus among the owners upon a different business model.  Don't expect to hear anything right away, they have a lot of work to figure this out.

In the meantime, here is my take on it:

1.  While we may see a reduction in roster sizes, there is little room to shrink the salary cap by any sizeable amount.  Arguments can be made for better distribution of earnings within the current cap, but such a small percentage of league revenues go to player already, large reductions really mean it would cease to be a professional league. 

2.  Revenue sharing has to be part of the new model, but with that comes a higher level of transparency. 

3.  The league has to maintain its recent cap on football operations staff, but now has to extend that to other departments.  The team presidents, VPs, marketing people, front office all have to tighten their belts.  I would argue this is the cost center that has grown exponentially over the past 25 years.

4.  The league needs to stay the course on Global players, and try to link this to new streaming services.  Global players will mean global fans, and they aren't coming to games, but they might subscribe to an internet feed to watch Panzer Boi blow people up. This also opens new avenues of sponsorship. 

5.  The league needs to monetize some kind of gaming platform, to allow sports betting that they get a piece of.  This is NOT vlts are the stadium, we are talking about football betting.  This could be substantial new revenue.

6.  All this will help reduce some costs and provide new revenue streams, and reduce reliance on gate revenues.  But at the end of the day, they have to find a way to get each team in the neighbourhood of 19k to 20k attendance.

Speaking to point 3, take a look at the Riders revenues compared to most of the teams in the league, and they managed to lose money last year before Covid. They were spending huge money outside of football operations.
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« Reply #69 on: September 11, 2020, 12:31:50 AM »

Speaking to point 3, take a look at the Riders revenues compared to most of the teams in the league, and they managed to lose money last year before Covid. They were spending huge money outside of football operations.

Its a little deceiving.  Their loss was nominal, if not for the Alouettes bailout, they would have been in the black.

They do have much higher non-operations expenses, but those are inflated by the COGS related to March sales.  They net about $500k on $6 million in merch sales, which is a lousy margin but great promotion. 

I think if you cut their merch revenues and expenses back to where the rest of the league is (say $1 mill) their financial profile is very similar to the bombers.
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« Reply #70 on: September 11, 2020, 11:07:27 AM »

Its a little deceiving.  Their loss was nominal, if not for the Alouettes bailout, they would have been in the black.

They do have much higher non-operations expenses, but those are inflated by the COGS related to March sales.  They net about $500k on $6 million in merch sales, which is a lousy margin but great promotion. 

I think if you cut their merch revenues and expenses back to where the rest of the league is (say $1 mill) their financial profile is very similar to the bombers.

Perhaps, but at the end of the day they spend a ton on promotion and non-football operation no matter how it's sliced. Whether its blowing out merch for pennies on the dollar to keep every yokel in a Brendan Labatte jersey or not, it's a big slice of pie that has to be factored in.
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« Reply #71 on: September 12, 2020, 12:41:46 PM »

What I'd like to see them do is finally figure out a way to get all or most of the games on the primary ESPN network. Work out a deal with TSN as a partner to give rebroadcasting rights to ESPN for pennies for the first 3 years and use that period to get a critical mass of American fans consistently watching, and use this to leverage a future contract that is fair and provides a significant new revenue stream and also rewards TSN for playing along. That massive, football-hungry US market is where it's at. ESPN doesn't have NFL TV rights, and Americans don't have good football to watch before September.

No doubt I'm oversimplifying and myself nor anyone else on this board knows the ins and outs of broadcast rights and negotiations, but I think that's the golden goose to getting new revenue aside from trying to get butts in the seats, which, today, isn't even possible.
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« Reply #72 on: September 12, 2020, 03:03:32 PM »

What I'd like to see them do is finally figure out a way to get all or most of the games on the primary ESPN network. Work out a deal with TSN as a partner to give rebroadcasting rights to ESPN for pennies for the first 3 years and use that period to get a critical mass of American fans consistently watching, and use this to leverage a future contract that is fair and provides a significant new revenue stream and also rewards TSN for playing along. That massive, football-hungry US market is where it's at. ESPN doesn't have NFL TV rights, and Americans don't have good football to watch before September.

No doubt I'm oversimplifying and myself nor anyone else on this board knows the ins and outs of broadcast rights and negotiations, but I think that's the golden goose to getting new revenue aside from trying to get butts in the seats, which, today, isn't even possible.

An interesting idea.
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« Reply #73 on: September 12, 2020, 04:14:01 PM »

. ESPN doesn't have NFL TV rights

Not totally true because they have Monday Night Football. However I agree with Blue In BC that your idea is interesting.
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« Reply #74 on: September 15, 2020, 01:43:30 PM »

An interesting idea.

It's not realistic nor the issue. The reason the CFL isn't on ESPN's primary network is not because the CFL wants too much money for the property. In those negotiations, ESPN has all leverage. They have the eyes. They have the audience. The problem is their audience doesn't want to watch the CFL. Networks want people watching so they can charge more to advertisers. That's why sports rights are valuable and why they pay a ton of money to obtain them. If ESPN goes with the CFL over college football on Saturday and whatever other sports they have on Thursday or Friday they're going to miss out on buckets of dollars as the eyes go elsewhere.

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« Reply #75 on: September 15, 2020, 03:26:47 PM »

It's not realistic nor the issue. The reason the CFL isn't on ESPN's primary network is not because the CFL wants too much money for the property. In those negotiations, ESPN has all leverage. They have the eyes. They have the audience. The problem is their audience doesn't want to watch the CFL. Networks want people watching so they can charge more to advertisers. That's why sports rights are valuable and why they pay a ton of money to obtain them. If ESPN goes with the CFL over college football on Saturday and whatever other sports they have on Thursday or Friday they're going to miss out on buckets of dollars as the eyes go elsewhere.



What I proposed was for the CFL to offer it up for very cheap at first to entice adoption.

Having it available to watch will gain viewership. People may ?not watch the CFL? because it?s not brought to them as an option, at least at the forefront.

Judging by what I?ve seen ESPN play other than a few big ticket items like NCAA ball, giving the American market gridiron football to watch will win every time.

If the bottleneck is the CFL being sticklers about what they want to license their product for, then that?s exactly the problem that needs to be rectified.
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« Reply #76 on: September 15, 2020, 03:52:15 PM »

What I proposed was for the CFL to offer it up for very cheap at first to entice adoption.

Having it available to watch will gain viewership. People may ?not watch the CFL? because it?s not brought to them as an option, at least at the forefront.

Judging by what I?ve seen ESPN play other than a few big ticket items like NCAA ball, giving the American market gridiron football to watch will win every time.

If the bottleneck is the CFL being sticklers about what they want to license their product for, then that?s exactly the problem that needs to be rectified.

They can delay broadcasts so as to not interfere with American college games if necessary. That shouldn't be an issue.

If the CFL wants too much money that is a problem. Some money is better than no money.

I'd rather see the CFL gain more interest in the USA than Europe. Realistically that would draw more players and interest IMO than Europe and this Global concept.
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« Reply #77 on: September 15, 2020, 04:48:34 PM »

Why not delay the live cast of CFL games in the home market? If the bombers play at 7 start the live stream at 730 or something. Try and get the butts in the stands. I get everyone pays for TSN already. Makes CFL and extra 2 bucks a mth or something. Or a season ticket holder get rights to the stream at game time etc  I get that these aren't the popular ideas. Just sick fo people using the excuse of the game being on TV as the excuse NOT the come out. However, tru winnipeggers will find any excuse..lol


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« Reply #78 on: September 15, 2020, 07:15:46 PM »

What I proposed was for the CFL to offer it up for very cheap at first to entice adoption.

Having it available to watch will gain viewership. People may ?not watch the CFL? because it?s not brought to them as an option, at least at the forefront.

Judging by what I?ve seen ESPN play other than a few big ticket items like NCAA ball, giving the American market gridiron football to watch will win every time.

If the bottleneck is the CFL being sticklers about what they want to license their product for, then that?s exactly the problem that needs to be rectified.

What I'm saying is the CFL could offer it for free or they could offer to pay ESPN to put it on the main network and it wouldn't matter. ESPN isn't going to do it.
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« Reply #79 on: September 15, 2020, 11:11:30 PM »

What I'm saying is the CFL could offer it for free or they could offer to pay ESPN to put it on the main network and it wouldn't matter. ESPN isn't going to do it.

I don?t understand why, when they don?t seem to have much competition.
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« Reply #80 on: September 16, 2020, 12:21:53 AM »

I don?t understand why, when they don?t seem to have much competition.

Go through the list and see what is on the main ESPN channel these days: https://www.espn.com/watch/schedule/_/type/upcoming/channel/e748f3c0-3f7c-3088-a90a-0ccb2588e0ed/startDate/20200917/country/us

It's all major properties. The CFL would be in huge "competition" for airtime with many other major sports leagues. Three hours dedicated to a CFL game is three hours that could be an MLB game or whatever else viewers actually want to watch in the US.

Pretend for a second the mighty AFL (Australian Football League) wanted to expand viewership in Canada. They get 25-35k fans out in Australia with a $12M-ish salary cap and the game is sort of similar to North American football (a little). The AFL figures, they just need Canadian fans to watch their games. They call up TSN and say, hey, we've got a deal for you. You can have the rights to all our games, no need to pay us. All you have to do is put it on the air. We've got the Brisbane Lions, Adelaide, Essendon. Lots of history (in Australia of course). Many great players too, Dustin Martin, Nat Fyte, Gary Ablett Jr.

TSN says, that sounds great but we've got targets to hit and ads space to sell. How many people are going to watch AFL in Canada? The AFL goes...probably very few but we want you to play it anyway for a bunch of years and we're sure more people will watch. How many more will watch then? No idea. But a bunch! TSN goes...you know what? We've got some NHL, CFL, NBA, Golf, SportsCentre and a ton of other properties that we know people watch and therefore can sell. Why don't you call us when people actually want to watch your product in Canada.

That's how it works. Obviously the CFL has a little more crossover as many players are from the US but it obviously hasn't been much of a hook over the years. At least in the mainstream... which is what you need to be to get on ESPN.
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« Reply #81 on: September 16, 2020, 11:36:24 AM »

Go through the list and see what is on the main ESPN channel these days: https://www.espn.com/watch/schedule/_/type/upcoming/channel/e748f3c0-3f7c-3088-a90a-0ccb2588e0ed/startDate/20200917/country/us

It's all major properties. The CFL would be in huge "competition" for airtime with many other major sports leagues. Three hours dedicated to a CFL game is three hours that could be an MLB game or whatever else viewers actually want to watch in the US.

Pretend for a second the mighty AFL (Australian Football League) wanted to expand viewership in Canada. They get 25-35k fans out in Australia with a $12M-ish salary cap and the game is sort of similar to North American football (a little). The AFL figures, they just need Canadian fans to watch their games. They call up TSN and say, hey, we've got a deal for you. You can have the rights to all our games, no need to pay us. All you have to do is put it on the air. We've got the Brisbane Lions, Adelaide, Essendon. Lots of history (in Australia of course). Many great players too, Dustin Martin, Nat Fyte, Gary Ablett Jr.

TSN says, that sounds great but we've got targets to hit and ads space to sell. How many people are going to watch AFL in Canada? The AFL goes...probably very few but we want you to play it anyway for a bunch of years and we're sure more people will watch. How many more will watch then? No idea. But a bunch! TSN goes...you know what? We've got some NHL, CFL, NBA, Golf, SportsCentre and a ton of other properties that we know people watch and therefore can sell. Why don't you call us when people actually want to watch your product in Canada.

That's how it works. Obviously the CFL has a little more crossover as many players are from the US but it obviously hasn't been much of a hook over the years. At least in the mainstream... which is what you need to be to get on ESPN.

I looked at the schedule and saw NBA, which would not be playing during most of the CFL season under normal conditions, and college football, which was already said to not be a no-go. However, they only play during the second half of the CFL season and there are still open opportunities in the fall going off traditional CFL game times at that time of year.

The disconnect between you and me is our assumptions of ratings. I don't think that most of the sports or sports talk/highlights shows draw such a number that they outweigh their costs to acquire/produce compared to the CFL giving away their rights for pennies, and it sounds like you do.
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