NAT MOP should not equal MOC

TecnoGenius · October 08, 2023, 05:41:06 AM

We've had in 2 out of 3 seasons situations where the GC MVP/MOP was a NAT and thus also awarded MVC/MOC. Andrew Harris in '19 and Muamba in '22. (Excuse my ignorance on the precise nomenclature as I've never figured out the difference between MVP/MOP, etc.)

This season could see Brady Oliveira take MOP and MOC in the season awards and/or the GC.

I think it should be decided that if a NAT wins the MOP, they do not win the MOC. The reason is that, at the moment, if a NAT wins MOP, they must invariably also be awarded MOC. If they were the best overall player, then clearly by axiomatic definition they must also have been the best overall NAT.

I think giving both awards to one player is dumb, unfair, and a bad look for the league. I think when AH33 did it it was novel and we all thought it'd never happen again. Then 2 seasons later they do the same for Muamba, who in my mind did nothing whatsoever to merit MOP, and maybe won by default because nobody else did enough to stand out (though I'd argue for Oullette's TDs). In any event, I would have argued for it not to have happened in the AH33 case either once I set aside the blue goggles and nostalgia.

I don't think anyone ever forsaw the possibility of a NAT being better than all the uber-IMPs, especially when the MOP almost always goes to a QB, or maybe WR, and the best of those historically have all been IMPs.

I think if they award MOP to a NAT, that by (a new) rule they have to award MOC to the next best NAT. Alternatively, and maybe more in line with the spirit of the CFL, they should do away with MOP/MOC and make it MOI/MOC: with MOI=most outstanding import. This would make IMP and NAT peers and equals in terms of the awards, not "here's the real award" and "here's the token NAT".

I don't want to see Brady (or anyone) get both (as much as I love Brady) in either the season or GC. I want to see him get MOP in both situations if he deserves it, and the NAT award go to the next best NAT. Giving him both is contrary to the spirit of the MOC concept, and unfair to all the other players, and frankly just looks dumb on stage.

Sir Blue and Gold · October 08, 2023, 12:24:38 PM

The only reason both awards exist is because usually a Canadian isn't going to win Most Outstanding Player and this way they get one too.

Would it make you feel better if they just didn't most award Most Outstanding Canadian in years where one wins Most Outstanding Player?

Jesse · October 08, 2023, 01:13:03 PM

This is just another one of those things that, I think, only you care about.

If a Canadian has the type of season where they are in consideration for MOP, than of course they should get MOC. Same thing if a defensive player was awarded MOP, they would also probably receive the MODP.

Each award has it's criteria. Players are never disqualified from receiving multiple awards in any league I can think of.

bluengold204 · October 08, 2023, 02:51:40 PM

Jesus Techno, do you even think before you post ? Of course winning MOP will win you MOC if you are Canadian. Do you think the ?next guy in line? would even want the award knowing **** well be wasn?t the MOC out there? That?s like giving out a participation ribbon.

TecnoGenius · October 09, 2023, 12:33:20 AM

Quote from: Sir Blue and Gold on October 08, 2023, 12:24:38 PM
The only reason both awards exist is because usually a Canadian isn't going to win Most Outstanding Player and this way they get one too.

Right. MOC was a way to get the sort of token "you're not that good, but you're the best NAT" prize. But for whatever reason CFL NATs have been getting so good that they are now regularly in consideration for MOP/MVP.

Quote from: Sir Blue and Gold on October 08, 2023, 12:24:38 PM
Would it make you feel better if they just didn't most award Most Outstanding Canadian in years where one wins Most Outstanding Player?

Meh, I'd have to think about it. Maybe. Because now we all know that MOC will automatically confer MOP, so it's not really a surprise or any question. They might as well hand out both trophies simultaneously to the one NAT, because otherwise it's just silly.

TecnoGenius · October 09, 2023, 12:43:02 AM

Quote from: Jesse on October 08, 2023, 01:13:03 PM
This is just another one of those things that, I think, only you care about.

Maybe. We'll see. It certainly wouldn't be the first time.

Quote from: Jesse on October 08, 2023, 01:13:03 PM
If a Canadian has the type of season where they are in consideration for MOP, than of course they should get MOC. Same thing if a defensive player was awarded MOP, they would also probably receive the MODP.

Good point. That would be equally as lame. Has MOP or MVP ever been a NAT D?

My main beef is there's only 2 awards given out at a GC, and every player is dying to win one, and the fans are interested in guessing who will get what. When you give them both to the same guy (which was never intended when conceived) then it's a bit of a letdown, for both fans (or just me?) and players (almost certainly).

I think the fact that NAT MOP=MOC also puts extra pressure on the pickers to *not* pick a NAT for MOP. So in that sense it might even harm a NAT's chances of getting MOP, because people will just say "well he'll still get MOC so we'll give MOP to an IMP".

At least with the season awards there's a lot more awards to go around so one guy getting two awards isn't as noticeable, because in that case it's more like "here's a slew of the best guys, one for each category, and then we pick the best of the absolute best". However, even there, if it's a NAT then there will be no award whatsoever for the league's best IMP QB/WR/RB.

TecnoGenius · October 09, 2023, 12:47:58 AM

Quote from: bluengold204 on October 08, 2023, 02:51:40 PM
Jesus Techno, do you even think before you post ? Of course winning MOP will win you MOC if you are Canadian. Do you think the ?next guy in line? would even want the award knowing **** well be wasn?t the MOC out there? That?s like giving out a participation ribbon.

That's a good point. I guess you can't give the MOC to the "2nd place" NAT then.

That's why having separate MOC / MOI categories might be the best solution. Then they can pick one of those to be the MOP. That way there's no token prize for 2nd place anyone. It's an award for the best NAT and the best IMP and the best man wins MOP.

And now that we have Ambrosie's love child GLOB program, and 3+ GLOBs on every roster, why not a MOG prize? At the moment they aren't eligible for anything. They're not good enough to ever win MOP and they don't qualify as MOC, even if by some miracle they have a better game/season than the best NAT.

MOC/MOI/MOG: 3 prizes, and MOP gets selected from one of them. No one deserving gets snubbed and no token consolation prizes.

TecnoGenius · October 09, 2023, 12:51:03 AM

Aside: have they ever given GC MOP to to player from the losing team? Conceivably you could have the loser QB or RB or WR playing lights out better than everyone, especially if the winning team distributes the ball evenly so no one stands out.

What if the losing RB had 200Y on the ground, 100Y in the air and scores 2 TDs? Just a thought exercise.

Jesse · October 09, 2023, 12:51:10 AM

Quote from: TecnoGenius on October 09, 2023, 12:47:58 AM
MOC/MOI/MOG: 3 prizes, and MOP gets selected from one of them. No one deserving gets snubbed and no token consolation prizes.

Thanks but no thanks.

1chad · October 10, 2023, 12:46:08 PM

Quote from: TecnoGenius on October 09, 2023, 12:43:02 AM
Maybe. We'll see. It certainly wouldn't be the first time.

Good point. That would be equally as lame. Has MOP or MVP ever been a NAT D?

My main beef is there's only 2 awards given out at a GC, and every player is dying to win one, and the fans are interested in guessing who will get what. When you give them both to the same guy (which was never intended when conceived) then it's a bit of a letdown, for both fans (or just me?) and players (almost certainly).

I think the fact that NAT MOP=MOC also puts extra pressure on the pickers to *not* pick a NAT for MOP. So in that sense it might even harm a NAT's chances of getting MOP, because people will just say "well he'll still get MOC so we'll give MOP to an IMP".

At least with the season awards there's a lot more awards to go around so one guy getting two awards isn't as noticeable, because in that case it's more like "here's a slew of the best guys, one for each category, and then we pick the best of the absolute best". However, even there, if it's a NAT then there will be no award whatsoever for the league's best IMP QB/WR/RB.

perhaps we should go back to this:

Between 1974-1990, the Offensive Player of the Game & Defensive Player of the Grey Cup game were awarded rather than one MVP award to one player

blue_gold_84 · October 10, 2023, 02:25:43 PM

Quote from: Jesse on October 09, 2023, 12:51:10 AM
Thanks but no thanks.

Agreed.

A player winning MOP and MOC should be and is a thing. Same with the GC MVP/MOC.

TecnoGenius · October 11, 2023, 02:27:02 AM

Quote from: blue_gold_84 on October 10, 2023, 02:25:43 PM
Agreed.

A player winning MOP and MOC should be and is a thing. Same with the GC MVP/MOC.

But it wasn't "a thing". It only became a thing in 2019. I bet we all thought it was a one-off. But then they shafted all the IMPs in the '22 GC by giving both to Henoc for basically doing nothing compared to what AH33 did in '19.

Oh well, I guess at least as a consolation that if it happens again this season it'll be our Brady doing it.

blueandgoldguy · October 11, 2023, 04:18:19 AM

If there is any justice, Brady will win both the MOC and MOP for the Bombers. It O'Shea is saying Collaros should be the MOP...well, I just have to shake my head.