Sask at BC - GDT

[theaardvark]

Pocket injuries do include getting a leg rolled up on, but tend to be more "smacking you hand on a helmet when passing", or blow to the head, or rib injures, or injuries from getting crushed in a gang sack.  Running with the ball can result in some of these (not the hand/helmet), but i would say much more leg issues happen when running.  Even non contact injuries when changing direction.

[pjrocksmb]

From Farhan:

Good news for @VernonAdamsJr8 & @BCLions. His knee is structurally stable & no ligament damage. Will see how he responds over next 1-2 days. Hasn?t been ruled out for this week?s game vs #Elks, but team has been very cautious with injuries all year. Having a capable backup helps

Great new, hope they don't rush him.

[Pete]

Pocket injuries do include getting a leg rolled up on, but tend to be more "smacking you hand on a helmet when passing", or blow to the head, or rib injures, or injuries from getting crushed in a gang sack.  Running with the ball can result in some of these (not the hand/helmet), but i would say much more leg issues happen when running.  Even non contact injuries when changing direction.

have to say i do think  pocket passers are more prone to injury for two reasons ..
1..the sheer mass  of tacklers around them either rolling up or bearing down on them
2. running qbs have a better feel for how to protect themselves,, they tend to be hit while moving rather than stationary where you absorb the full impact of the hit
Of course there will be some variation , for instance Fajarno tends to put himself in more danger by  not avoiding contact enough. Looking at this year Bo levi, Shiltz, Adams were all injured in the pocket, Masoli was an outlier with the achillies. and no contact.

[TecnoGenius]

Haha, well, then why do we all, and everyone watching regardless of city, hold our breath when Zach takes off down the field?  If that stat is correct, then Zach is safer when he runs up the gut!  Amiright?

Anyone buying that?? 

[Sir Blue and Gold]

It's an interesting question with a lot of factors.

Perhaps body type and stature has more to do with it than the type of play. Or maybe not. Might be play style more so than anything. One would think a guy like Ben Roethlisberger would stand a better chance to stay heathy than Lamar Jackson but I'm not sure that was the case in reality.

I think, generally speaking, the act of throwing the football puts you in a vulnerable position. You've got a leg planted, you're stationary, and you're usually looking at where the ball is going as opposed to who is coming at you. This opens the possibility of a lot of bad things happening if you get contact while going through that. You've also got the issue where you don't always see the pressure coming at you in the pocket. On the other hand, a run seems to open the door to a lot of tackling type injuries which can sometimes be more minor in nature, but not always. Often, you're worried about a cumulative effect there.

In general, just based on watching the game for a long time, the healthiest QBs tend to be the ones who play very fast from the pocket, examples would be Drew Brees, Tom Brady, Anthony Calvillo (especially later in his career). That style tends to benefit from avoiding having to run and also avoiding a lot of the contact while throwing. Not many guys can do it successfully though.

[Jesse]

It's an interesting question with a lot of factors.

Perhaps body type and stature has more to do with it than the type of play. Or maybe not. Might be play style more so than anything. One would think a guy like Ben Roethlisberger would stand a better chance to stay heathy than Lamar Jackson but I'm not sure that was the case in reality.

I think, generally speaking, the act of throwing the football puts you in a vulnerable position. You've got a leg planted, you're stationary, and you're usually looking at where the ball is going as opposed to who is coming at you. This opens the possibility of a lot of bad things happening if you get contact while going through that. You've also got the issue where you don't always see the pressure coming at you in the pocket. On the other hand, a run seems to open the door to a lot of tackling type injuries which can sometimes be more minor in nature, but not always. Often, you're worried about a cumulative effect there.

In general, just based on watching the game for a long time, the healthiest QBs tend to be the ones who play very fast from the pocket, examples would be Drew Brees, Tom Brady, Anthony Calvillo (especially later in his career). That style tends to benefit from avoiding having to run and also avoiding a lot of the contact while throwing. Not many guys can do it successfully though.

Unfortunately, naming the handful of guys who played into their 40's means nothing statistically to the thousands of people who have played the position. How many pocket passers never made pro because they got injured and never got their shot?

Same thing with Techno using Zach to prove his point.

If you are using individual names to disprove the findings of a study that tracked 5140 starts across 10 years, you aren't proving a point, you're identifying outliers.

[Sir Blue and Gold]

Unfortunately, naming the handful of guys who played into their 40's means nothing statistically to the thousands of people who have played the position. How many pocket passers never made pro because they got injured and never got their shot?

Same thing with Techno using Zach to prove his point.

If you are using individual names to disprove the findings of a study that tracked 5140 starts across 10 years, you aren't proving a point, you're identifying outliers.

I'm not trying to disprove anything. Just discussing. 

However, in the report that was linked. The very first summary item is:

NFL quarterbacks that run most are not injured most. NFL quarterbacks that run the least are injured the least. Middle-of-the road running quarterbacks are injured most frequently.

[bunker]

It's an interesting question with a lot of factors.

Perhaps body type and stature has more to do with it than the type of play. Or maybe not. Might be play style more so than anything. One would think a guy like Ben Roethlisberger would stand a better chance to stay heathy than Lamar Jackson but I'm not sure that was the case in reality.

I think, generally speaking, the act of throwing the football puts you in a vulnerable position. You've got a leg planted, you're stationary, and you're usually looking at where the ball is going as opposed to who is coming at you. This opens the possibility of a lot of bad things happening if you get contact while going through that. You've also got the issue where you don't always see the pressure coming at you in the pocket. On the other hand, a run seems to open the door to a lot of tackling type injuries which can sometimes be more minor in nature, but not always. Often, you're worried about a cumulative effect there.

In general, just based on watching the game for a long time, the healthiest QBs tend to be the ones who play very fast from the pocket, examples would be Drew Brees, Tom Brady, Anthony Calvillo (especially later in his career). That style tends to benefit from avoiding having to run and also avoiding a lot of the contact while throwing. Not many guys can do it successfully though.

SB&G: I think you may be correct. From the article:

Ravens offensive coordinator Greg Roman, who has coached some of the league?s most frequent running quarterbacks, explained why designed runs aren?t as dangerous after he was asked about potentially opening Jackson up to injury by running him too much.

?I think it?s a little overrated, the whole danger thing,? Roman said in February 2019. ?Why? Because, and this is empirical data here, over the years, you kind of realize that when a quarterback decides to run, he?s in control. So now [if] he wants to slide, he can slide. If he wants to dive, he can dive, get out of bounds, all of those different things. He can get down, declare himself down.

?A lot of the time, the situations that [have] more danger are when he doesn?t see what?s coming ? my eyes are downfield, I?m standing stationary from the pocket, somebody is hitting me from the blind side. My experience, and I kind of learned this, is that when the quarterback takes the ball and starts to run, there?s not a lot of danger involved in that relative to other situations.?

Of course don't try convincing Trevor Harris of this.
Maybe QBs who rarely take off are less adept at this, and at higher risk?

[TecnoGenius]

Same thing with Techno using Zach to prove his point.

If you are using individual names to disprove the findings of a study that tracked 5140 starts across 10 years, you aren't proving a point, you're identifying outliers.

Again, I would have liked to see it broken up by injury type.  Throw away the non-contacts, as they were going to happen anyhow.  Now sift by concussion, leg/ankle/knee, arm, etc.  I have my hunches but to be honest I'm not sure what you'd find.  I also am more interested in seeing the results for the CFL, not NFL.

I would also discount the "in control" / sliding aspect because how many CFL QBs have we seen get injured, or at least mega-whacked, sliding?  Zach is the perfect example there, but there are more.  CFL QBs get whacked sliding all the time because there's too much grey area and interpretation, and the penalty is only 15y to take out a QB, unless your name is Simoni.  When you're running up the gut you have a massive blind spot, and that is directly behind you, and it's those behind tackles that often get you rolled up on.

Another way to look at it is look at the injuries to RBs.  Do they get injured more than QBs?  What type of injuries are most common?  If the QB is just becoming a RB, then you'd expect the same kind of damage as RBs get.  The problem is, the smaller, compact, beefy RBs are designed and used to the punishment.  Lanky/tall/wimpy QBs are not.  If RBs see a lot of lower body injuries then you'd expect running QBs to eventually see the same -- or worse.

Again, it will be easy to have some early hints to this debate when we watch what happens to the CFL running QBs over the course of this season.

[Pete]

I actually think that a running quarterback is one that meets certain criteria ie % of downs they run on, yards gained etc.
Simply being injured when running isnt a great indicator as some qbs, Collaris included, don't have a real knack or technique for it. I cringe every time Zac crosses the line of scrimmage as hes not fast enough to avoid getting tackled from behind .

[pjrocksmb]

The great ones dangle there way to freedom.  Mr Gretzky proved that in the 80s.  Helps if you have a few hit man on your side

[buckzumhoff]

Collaros is no threat to run the ball . Can't buy time so the offensive line has to be good all the time. Defenses know he has to drop back or quick hand offs to demski and Bailey. So they don't have to worry about our QBs breaking a tackle and running it 20 yards.  Pigrome was a threat he could outrun defensive players. As long as collaros doesn't throw picks we should be ok. And the running game has to be a lot better.

[TecnoGenius]

As long as collaros doesn't throw picks we should be ok. And the running game has to be a lot better.

Collaros is the new Ricky Ray.  And Ricky had a great career after he became pocket-bound.  Zach might even be able to one-up him because Zach is still great a rolling out, bootlegging and scrambling... he just needs to keep it behind the LoS.