In our week 1 game: 2Q0:36 (right before halftime) Adeleke is trying to take a safety instead of punt out of his EZ. He backpedals a few yards, then right before Gauthier reaches him he takes off running to kill clock.
Refs blow the play dead right before he takes off because he does a little downward movement that they construed as conceding / taking a knee.
Proulx says it's "objectionable conduct" "by rule" and applies a 10Y penalty. HAM players and coaches are shown perplexed and freaking out.
Bomber fans didn't get excited, because hey, this helps us ssshhh. But Riderfans forum GDT went mental (because we live rent-free in their heads). So I'm diving into the rulebook, but I can't find really anything that applies. Are the Riderfans right? Is this another one of Proulx's fever dreams?
He says OC, so I look at OC rules and the only possible applicable part is "baiting... and opponent by act...". Adeleke is baiting Gauthier, in a way. In fact, Gauthier is going to paste Adeleke but eases up and diverts left just a little bit once he sees him "go down" so as not to draw a UR penalty. This allows some blocker to get in and disrupt Gauthier.
But in the past "baiting / taunting" has usually meant some after-the-whistle thing, not an in-play thing. A Riderfan makes the comparison of the QB "baiting" a player with a fake handoff or ride & decide. I guess he has a point: QB is baiting the DL to bite on the fake.
Now, I'm still working off the 2021 rulebook, so maybe something was added since then in this regard? (Anyone have the link to the 2023 rulebook?)
Did Proulx mess this one up? Or is it legit per the actual rules? Sounds like a good rule to add if it's not already there. I remember plays where "kickers" fake going down a couple of times and when they finally do go down a coverage guy pastes them hard (for no penalty on either player).
I don?t believe he made it up, lol. The reasons rider fans are made is that they don?t believe the player ?faked? giving himself up - it was pretty subtle.
I only saw it live at the game and haven?t seen a replay, but in real time I thought he was trying to take out the Bombers.
You can't fake slide...which is what they interpreted this as..
Quote from: Jesse on June 13, 2023, 12:36:46 AM
I don?t believe he made it up, lol. The reasons rider fans are made is that they don?t believe the player ?faked? giving himself up - it was pretty subtle.
I only saw it live at the game and haven?t seen a replay, but in real time I thought he was trying to take out the Bombers.
Yes, some did say they didn't see any fake. Yes, it was subtle. In fact, if Gauthier hadn't held up, maybe Proulx doesn't call it. Gauthier seems to have thought he was taking a knee. I bet he'd say so if you asked him.
The problem with Saskfans arguing there was no fake is that Adeleke stayed facing the LoS the entire time, and just backpedaling. If you didn't want to fake a knee, why would you not start turning to run? We've seen this many times before and the players usually get the ball and soon after start running to the other side of the EZ.
You could argue Adeleke's kneeling-slightly was just him winding up for the sudden run. But you can't ask the refs to guess if the "wind up" is taking a knee or not. I could get a good screen shot to show how low Adeleke lowers his body: it is substantial. Knees are at best 1 foot off the ground.
Maybe more importantly, Gauthier instantly does the "you gonna allow this refs?" shrug right at Proulx after the blocker whacks him, pointing at Adeleke. But the whistle had already blown by then.
As for "not making it up", the problem remains: find it in the rulebook :D I searched every synonym for fake, concede, knee, etc. to no avail.
I believe its a good call, with all the emphasis on player "safety" (pardon the pun) when a tackler sees a returner is going to concede they should let up, If you allow the fakes in any form then its a free shot at any returner if you get him before knee touches
I imagine this has come up in referee discussions in the past, I agree that Prouix isn't just making it up on his own.
I was watching with three other guys. The rule makes sense, but none of us thought that there was a legitimate intent to fake-concede (i.e. we all agreed that it was a bad call).
Quote from: The Zipp on June 13, 2023, 12:40:53 AM
You can't fake slide...which is what they interpreted this as..
Also known as the Cody Fajardo rule.
Quote from: The Zipp on June 13, 2023, 12:40:53 AM
You can't fake slide...which is what they interpreted this as..
Ahh... Thanks for that extra info! You're the man! That indeed seems to be what they used here. And as I suspected, it was a rule they added since the 2021 copy of the rulebook I'm using. (Again: anyone have links to the 2023 version?)
New in 2022 from a cfl announcement:
Change: Introduction of a new objectionable conduct penalty for quarterbacks who "fake" giving themselves up by pretending to initiate a slide while carrying the football. The ball would also be spotted where the fake occurred. The safety of all quarterbacks is jeopardized when measures to protect them are instead used to gain an advantage.Proulx is taking some liberties by applying it to "punters" though (unless it was again modified in 2023?), but it does stand to reason as in a punt situation the punter is the de facto "QB". The safety issue would be precisely the same. And Adeleke did for sure gain an advantage.
Clearly the HAM players and coaches studied the new rule changes about as much as I did... ;D ;D :D :D
Quote from: pdirks67 on June 13, 2023, 01:17:54 AM
I was watching with three other guys. The rule makes sense, but none of us thought that there was a legitimate intent to fake-concede (i.e. we all agreed that it was a bad call).
It could for sure be taken that way. But I see Proulx's way too.
For me the tell is how Gauthier reacts, and that may be what Proulx ultimately keys on. Watch it again, especially in the slow-mo replay, which is a great angle. I think it's without a doubt that Gauthier eases up and diverts left. No way Gauthier doesn't paste the guy had he not thought he was conceding. It would have been a great hit to witness :D Adeleke should be happy both Gauthier and Proulx thought he was faking.
The league might have to clarify that the rule also applies to punters. And they should clarify that it applies to "fake knees" as well as sliding (or just delete the "by pretending..." clause: it's superfluous.
As an interesting (bonus!) aside: When the safety was taken, it was within the 3 minute warning, yet WPG still was able to elect to take the ball rather than a forced kickoff. This stems from the safety rules not taking into account the 3 minute warning (perhaps an oversight?).
Another interesting tidbit: They placed the ball at the 35. Again, this is clearly spelled out in the safety rules. However, in 2022 the CFL moved up nearly every starting position by 5 yards to "make more O". Did they overlook the safety rules? I guess not as many teams would take a safety knowing it starts on the 40? Anyhow, yet another exception to the general rule that makes memorizing it all difficult. (Credit to the head refs who do so!)
It was conduct that was objectional, and by very definition is a foul. You don?t fake taking a knee and then run around. Same would apply if a Qb took the snap on the last play and faked taking a knee and ran around. Refs are trying to protect players in vulnerable positions- fielding a kick when you?re going to give up the rouge , and game ending kneel down plays to save people from getting hurt on a nothing play. If you want to play the goofball, then you?re going to get tagged. Right on Andre, hammer the loser!!
Quote from: TecnoGenius on June 13, 2023, 01:55:35 AMNow, I'm still working off the 2021 rulebook, so maybe something was added since then in this regard? (Anyone have the link to the 2023 rulebook?)
As an interesting (bonus!) aside: When the safety was taken, it was within the 3 minute warning, yet WPG still was able to elect to take the ball rather than a forced kickoff. This stems from the safety rules not taking into account the 3 minute warning (perhaps an oversight?).
Another interesting tidbit: They placed the ball at the 35. Again, this is clearly spelled out in the safety rules. However, in 2022 the CFL moved up nearly every starting position by 5 yards to "make more O". Did they overlook the safety rules? I guess not as many teams would take a safety knowing it starts on the 40? Anyhow, yet another exception to the general rule that makes memorizing it all difficult. (Credit to the head refs who do so!)
2022 Rule Book (https://www.dropbox.com/sh/848xcto61lv1gxy/AADp9DepHN6crqp-7pSokWBqa/2022%20CFL%20Stats?dl=0&preview=2022+Rule+Book.pdf&subfolder_nav_tracking=1)
2023 Rule Book (https://d3ham790trbkqy.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2050/11/2023_Rule-Book.pdf)
The option after a safety touch is always
a) scrimmage from own 40
b) kickoff from own 30
c) have opposition kickoff from the 20
This rule does not change after the 3 minute warning of the 4th quarter (as it does for a FG)
The ball was actually placed at the 50 yard line following the safety touch. It will be obvious after you watch it for the 12th time.
69 2 HAM-3-3-H8 Kneel down at HAM00 for loss of 8 yards. Winnipeg Blue Bombers SAFETY TOUCH, clock 00:50
70 2 WPG-1-10-W40 (00:26) PENALTY HAM Objectionable conduct (#2 T.Adeleke) 10 yards from WPG40 to WPG50, 1ST DOWN. NO PLAY
71 2 WPG-1-10-W50 #20 B.Oliveira rush middle for 3 yards gain to the WPG53 (#44 C.Sayles)
An extra play was required to enter the penalty because Genius
Quote from: Stats Junkie on June 13, 2023, 03:22:12 AM
2023 Rule Book
Thanks so much Junkie!! I reference the rulebook weekly; so happy to get my hands on the newest one.
Quote from: Stats Junkie on June 13, 2023, 03:22:12 AM
The option after a safety touch is always
a) scrimmage from own 40
b) kickoff from own 30
c) have opposition kickoff from the 20
This rule does not change after the 3 minute warning of the 4th quarter (as it does for a FG)
The ball was actually placed at the 50 yard line following the safety touch. It will be obvious after you watch it for the 12th time.
Ah, you are totally right, they did start at the 50 meaning it was the 45. For some reason I was looking at where Zach was standing in the pistol and doing the math from there, doh.
As for the updated safety starting points in the rulebook, it helps that I have the 2023 rulebook now :D
I still find it a bit odd the forced-kickoff-after-3-min-warning doesn't apply to safeties, though.
Quote from: dd on June 13, 2023, 02:37:25 AM
Right Andre, hammer the loser!!
Andre "The Hammer" Proulx. His new nickname. His explanation of this penalty should make good fodder for the next Andre Proulx Sings instalment on youtube. ;D
Quote from: TecnoGenius on June 13, 2023, 05:48:24 AM
Andre "The Hammer" Proulx. His new nickname. His explanation of this penalty should make good fodder for the next Andre Proulx Sings instalment on youtube. ;D
Correction - it would be Andre ?De Ammer? Proulx. If we?re assigning nicknames, let?s get it right.
As far as the call goes, I thought it was weak. He barely flexed his knee. That being said, I thought the refs were a little flag happy with the objectionable conduct and misconduct penalties in week 1, with the exception of the splash that was called.
It was subtle but the refs are setting the precedent. There were a few "odd" calls in week one;
The fake knee
The celebration roll into a ref
The "glancing blow" no call to a QB's head
As long as they are consistent all year it's good, I do think the "Head swipe" will be the most difficult to keep consistent, as the head did actually move slightly.
That was a BS call. He just stood there then took off. He didn't fake taking a knee.
Quote from: TBURGESS on June 13, 2023, 02:18:10 PM
That was a BS call. He just stood there then took off. He didn't fake taking a knee.
I thought he faked it watching live, but I haven?t seen a replay.
Quote from: BlueInCgy on June 13, 2023, 11:55:03 AM
Correction - it would be Andre ?De Ammer? Proulx. If we?re assigning nicknames, let?s get it right.
As far as the call goes, I thought it was weak. He barely flexed his knee. That being said, I thought the refs were a little flag happy with the objectionable conduct and misconduct penalties in week 1, with the exception of the splash that was called.
I rewatched the play and can see why Proulx called it, after he received the ball he backed up slowly in a half crouch for a few seconds were he could have dropped to his knee in an instant, he was definitely sending mixed messages about his intentions.
Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on June 13, 2023, 03:52:39 PM
I rewatched the play and can see why Proulx called it, after he received the ball he backed up slowly in a half crouch for a few seconds were he could have dropped to his knee in an instant, he was definitely sending mixed messages about his intentions.
He backed up slowly. He could have dropped to knee, but didn't. You can't throw the flag on what he could have done.
He's not a kicker, his intention was clearly to waste time by running around. There were no mixed messages, just a BS call.
Quote from: TBURGESS on June 13, 2023, 03:59:27 PM
He backed up slowly. He could have dropped to knee, but didn't. You can't throw the flag on what he could have done.
He's not a kicker, his intention was clearly to waste time by running around. There were no mixed messages, just a BS call.
Isn't the very definition of a fake indicating you're about to do something, then not doing it?
Quote from: TBURGESS on June 13, 2023, 03:59:27 PM
He backed up slowly. He could have dropped to knee, but didn't. You can't throw the flag on what he could have done.
But they didn't throw the flag on "what he could have done". They threw the flag on the fake. He did the fake. He didn't "could have done it"... he done it! I know what you're saying, but you'll have to refine your logic and wording.
Ok, you made me go make a screenshot. At this point in time he has not moved laterally even one inch. He has only backpedaled. Gauthier is going to cream him. Looking at it more times, I really think Proulx was trying to blow the play dead as soon as it remotely appeared to be a concession, before Adeleke got hurt.
https://fsi.ca/tec/fake-conceding.jpg (https://fsi.ca/tec/fake-conceding.jpg)
How low do the head & knee have to go before you say it's a fake knee? Who knows. But the precedent has been set. If the league doesn't like it, they can clarify. Moral of the story is, if you want to dink around in the EZ to kill time, stay upright at all times.
P.S. This isn't a who-cares call because you could argue the time saved for us led directly to the FG score a few clock seconds later.
Quote from: BlueInCgy on June 13, 2023, 11:55:03 AM
with the exception of the splash that was called.
The beauty of that belly-flop is that a) we got to hear the name "King Kong Bundy" again, and b) it will go down in the history of CFL folklore, never to be forgotten, and oft-referenced. A true classic.
The best part of it all is Gray is laying there like "ho hum, who cares, I'm 350, you're only 300, nya nya". It's like 2 walruses fighting in a mating ritual.
Quote from: 3rdand1.5 on June 13, 2023, 12:11:41 PM
The celebration roll into a ref
I liked that call. It could have gone either way. The thing is, it says "before you celebrate, take into account where the refs are". That's reasonable. It was easily avoidable. Besides the nads whack, Kroeker could have been seriously injured (concussion if his head hits the turf).
IMO He didn't fake taking a knee. He just waited until we got close and took off. It's something you see several times a season & I can't remember the last time it was called. We've all seen way worse cases of faking going down that weren't flagged. Why did the choose this play to set a new precedence?
As for the roll into the ref. That's a penalty every time.
Quote from: TecnoGenius on June 13, 2023, 07:06:05 PM
The beauty of that belly-flop is that a) we got to hear the name "King Kong Bundy" again, and b) it will go down in the history of CFL folklore, never to be forgotten, and oft-referenced. A true classic.
The best part of it all is Gray is laying there like "ho hum, who cares, I'm 350, you're only 300, nya nya". It's like 2 walruses fighting in a mating ritual.
I saw the incident that riled Diallo up, it was the play just before Piggy came in on the first short yardage plunge at the goal line, I think this was just before halftime. Diallo was laying face down on the ground and Hardrick rolled over him while untangling himself from the pile, it "looked" totally unintentional but Diallo jumped up ready to fight, while Yoshi lumbered away oblivious to the chaos left in his wake.
Quote from: TBURGESS on June 13, 2023, 08:06:47 PM
IMO He didn't fake taking a knee. He just waited until we got close and took off. It's something you see several times a season & I can't remember the last time it was called. We've all seen way worse cases of faking going down that weren't flagged. Why did the choose this play to set a new precedence?
He didn't just wait then take off. He took the snap and instantly was backpedaling. As in walking backwards. As in not turning to either direction. When a P is backing up, it basically means they are going to take a knee. That's already sending signals to the rushers.
In many other instances the P takes the snap and instantly turns and starts running, even if to the back of the EZ. Not all, but many. That is making it more obvious you are not going to take a knee and are trying to screw around (this could be useful for a new rule: if you're dancing around you must turn your body immediately; taking knees you can only backpedal).
Can you dispute in the pic I sent that his knee is getting mighty close to the field? Is it halfway down? Again, does the ref start measuring knee-height, or leg angle in a split second?
You can't remember the last time it was called because the rule was added in 2022 and this situation hadn't arisen yet. I watch all the CFL games and I'm pretty sure this is the first occurrence. There was the play, probably in 2019(?) or 2021(?) in one of our games where some guy is dancing around and faking going down like 3 times and finally our guy comes over and just pastes him the final time he takes a knee. The pasting was pretty rough and some were looking for a UR, but no flag was thrown, because the clown deserved it. This new rule is trying to avoid that hellacious pasting the faker can get.
I get what you're saying, and it
is a marginal call, and that's why it would be nice to get more CFL clarification. But I also see the point of the new rule.
Watch it again and focus on Gauthier, and put yourself in his shoes, because not only does he not get the tackle because he thought the P was conceding, but he in turn gets pushed roughly by the blocker who has time to catch up due to him holding up on the hit (probably a IB to boot). Allowing a lot of fakery is not fair to a guy like Gauthier because he's damned-if-he-does (potential UR) and damned-if-he-doesn't (P gets away / kills more clock, or worse, escapes the EZ for a TD).
Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on June 13, 2023, 08:14:01 PM
I saw the incident that riled Diallo up, it was the play just before Piggy came in on the first short yardage plunge at the goal line, I think this was just before halftime. Diallo was laying face down on the ground and Hardrick rolled over him while untangling himself from the pile, it "looked" totally unintentional but Diallo jumped up ready to fight, while Yoshi lumbered away oblivious to the chaos left in his wake.
Not just that. Gray especially loves to cruise the pile. It's just what he does. Within the whistle he can usually get away with it. Other players too, including Yoshi, like to do the ol' "I'm just getting up and happen to be using you as my step stool" dominance / demoralization display.
Every team does it. The key is to be subtle and within the whistles. Otherwise you are taking 15's and hurting your team. Nothing subtle about a belly flop!
Diallo clearly had had enough and felt demoralized and that coupled with his poor impulse control gave us 15 and some great camera footage. Kudos to his vet team mate(s) like Davis(?I think?) trying to slap some sense into him. Not a good look that they had massive in-fighting on the bench. That'll kill them throughout the year if they don't get players in line. Think Marino.
My main question now is, when do find out what the fine is? Can this warrant a suspension, or because no one was hurt they'll just drop it?
Clearly the Hamilton players have no discipline at all... The bellyflop was the worst ... it was funny though..
Quote from: TecnoGenius on June 14, 2023, 12:12:24 AM
He didn't just wait then take off. He took the snap and instantly was backpedaling. As in walking backwards. As in not turning to either direction. When a P is backing up, it basically means they are going to take a knee. That's already sending signals to the rushers.
In many other instances the P takes the snap and instantly turns and starts running, even if to the back of the EZ. Not all, but many. That is making it more obvious you are not going to take a knee and are trying to screw around (this could be useful for a new rule: if you're dancing around you must turn your body immediately; taking knees you can only backpedal).
Can you dispute in the pic I sent that his knee is getting mighty close to the field? Is it halfway down? Again, does the ref start measuring knee-height, or leg angle in a split second?
You can't remember the last time it was called because the rule was added in 2022 and this situation hadn't arisen yet. I watch all the CFL games and I'm pretty sure this is the first occurrence. There was the play, probably in 2019(?) or 2021(?) in one of our games where some guy is dancing around and faking going down like 3 times and finally our guy comes over and just pastes him the final time he takes a knee. The pasting was pretty rough and some were looking for a UR, but no flag was thrown, because the clown deserved it. This new rule is trying to avoid that hellacious pasting the faker can get.
I get what you're saying, and it is a marginal call, and that's why it would be nice to get more CFL clarification. But I also see the point of the new rule.
Watch it again and focus on Gauthier, and put yourself in his shoes, because not only does he not get the tackle because he thought the P was conceding, but he in turn gets pushed roughly by the blocker who has time to catch up due to him holding up on the hit (probably a IB to boot). Allowing a lot of fakery is not fair to a guy like Gauthier because he's damned-if-he-does (potential UR) and damned-if-he-doesn't (P gets away / kills more clock, or worse, escapes the EZ for a TD).
He isn't a punter, back peddling isn't kneeling, there is no rule that says you have to instantly start running or that you can't 'dance'.
What the rushers are thinking doesn't matter either, nor does any other play where no flag was thrown.
The only thing that matters is... Did he fake taking a knee or not? Some folks contend that you can see he did in slow motion or in a single frame. I say it's like PI, if you can't tell at real speed, then it's not a penalty.
Quote from: TBURGESS on June 14, 2023, 02:41:33 PM
He isn't a punter, back peddling isn't kneeling, there is no rule that says you have to instantly start running or that you can't 'dance'.
What the rushers are thinking doesn't matter either, nor does any other play where no flag was thrown.
The only thing that matters is... Did he fake taking a knee or not? Some folks contend that you can see he did in slow motion or in a single frame. I say it's like PI, if you can't tell at real speed, then it's not a penalty.
Sure you could argue all that. Then I would ask you: Then why did Proulx blow the whistle? Clearly Proulx saw something that was enough for him "at real speed". Keep in mind Proulx is the CFL ref with the most experience at this moment. IMHO he's also the best.
Many of my points were suggestions on how the rule should be amended to disambiguate things and
protect player safety, which after all is the entire point of these things.
We may learn more as early as today if the CFL deems it worth of clarification. If they don't clarify, then punter-dancers will need to be coached up on how to avoid the perception of fake-conceding given the new precedent.
For what it's worth (not much), I was at the game and when I first saw the play in real time, I saw the play unfold and was outraged at the returner and thought it was a fake. I was relieved when the flag got thrown. I can't confirm I saw him bend his leg (what I think it would take in order to call it a fake) but at least at the time, I felt like I saw that happen. If he was just "looking like he might take a knee but backpeddles and then takes off", I agree that should be fair game.
Anyone got a replay of that moment, or screenshots? This sounds like a job for Techno at 3 am
Quote from: blue_or_die on June 14, 2023, 06:47:09 PM
Anyone got a replay of that moment, or screenshots? This sounds like a job for Techno at 3 am
I did the screenshot already in an earlier post:
https://fsi.ca/tec/fake-conceding.jpg (https://fsi.ca/tec/fake-conceding.jpg)
I had the same impression as you @IGF when it first happened. But I didn't know about the new rule so I was confused for a bit. The part that stood out to me live was Gauthier easing off: I could see it clearly from my seats. He would only ease off if he thought the P was taking a knee.
Quote from: blue_or_die on June 14, 2023, 06:47:09 PM
For what it's worth (not much), I was at the game and when I first saw the play in real time, I saw the play unfold and was outraged at the returner and thought it was a fake. I was relieved when the flag got thrown. I can't confirm I saw him bend his leg (what I think it would take in order to call it a fake) but at least at the time, I felt like I saw that happen. If he was just "looking like he might take a knee but backpeddles and then takes off", I agree that should be fair game.
Anyone got a replay of that moment, or screenshots? This sounds like a job for Techno at 3 am
Waders27 had the full game replay up on YouTube for a few days, but now I see it's been taken down.
Quote from: TecnoGenius on June 14, 2023, 06:59:38 PM
I did the screenshot already in an earlier post:
https://fsi.ca/tec/fake-conceding.jpg (https://fsi.ca/tec/fake-conceding.jpg)
I had the same impression as you @IGF when it first happened. But I didn't know about the new rule so I was confused for a bit. The part that stood out to me live was Gauthier easing off: I could see it clearly from my seats. He would only ease off if he thought the P was taking a knee.
Oops sorry- TLDR'd a lot of this thread.
I rewatched it just now here; the play develops at 58:55 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENx2vk0TaTQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENx2vk0TaTQ)
Wow that is very close. I do think the play was made in bad faith (since knees, hook slides, running for out-of-bounds are done for player safety) and there was baiting but to throw a flag....I'll chalk it up as chintzy. Not as black and white as TBurg wants to believe.
Quote from: blue_or_die on June 14, 2023, 07:11:05 PM
Wow that is very close. I do think the play was made in bad faith (since knees, hook slides, running for out-of-bounds are done for player safety) and there was baiting but to throw a flag....I'll chalk it up as chintzy. Not as black and white as TBurg wants to believe.
But there's the conundrum. Proulx can't have the play whistled dead unless he throws the flag. Option matrix (assuming no one thought Adeleke's knee actually touched the ground, which no one is claiming):
1. Don't blow whistle, no flag <--- valid as per rules
2. Blow whistle, no flag <--- not a valid rule
3. Blow whistle, throw flag <--- valid as per rules; this is what happened
To blow the play dead he had to have already decided there was a penalty, otherwise he cannot blow it dead. The only way to blow it dead is if a fake occurred (in his opinion) or the knee touched the ground. If he did and admits to #2 then he's saying he screwed up (as some Riderfans proffer).
Now, Proulx or command could have done one last option:
4. Blow whistle, throw flag, picked the flag up after further review, and still saved face (for command, less for Proulx) <--- valid a per rules
But I'm happy with what happened. I think it sets a good precedent (hopefully they'll be consistent), and "dancers" will "be less sneaky". Even better would be league clarification or rule amendments, but we rarely get that.
Quote from: TecnoGenius on June 14, 2023, 06:59:38 PM
I did the screenshot already in an earlier post:
https://fsi.ca/tec/fake-conceding.jpg (https://fsi.ca/tec/fake-conceding.jpg)
I had the same impression as you @IGF when it first happened. But I didn't know about the new rule so I was confused for a bit. The part that stood out to me live was Gauthier easing off: I could see it clearly from my seats. He would only ease off if he thought the P was taking a knee.
That screen shot shows him changing direction, not taking a knee. What else you got?
I watched the video too and remain convinced that it was a crappy call.
Live, I was happy to take the call and consider it the right one.
Looking at the video a few times though, I don't think he got close enough to taking a knee to make it a penalty. I have no doubt Edeleke was trying to sell the bombers on his about to be taking a knee to buy more time. I think Proulx had the right intention, but made the call prematurely. I think he got lured in by Edeleke sitting waiting for a few seconds, which often proceeds taking a knee, and by a slight dip down as he takes off to his left. I understand the thinking behind not wanting players to fake taking a knee, but I don't think this rose to the threshold of a penalty. Having said that, I had to look at the video several times before making my mind up and obviously Proulx does not have that luxury. I don't think its a slam dunk either way.
Quote from: TBURGESS on June 14, 2023, 09:00:06 PM
That screen shot shows him changing direction, not taking a knee. What else you got?
I watched the video too and remain convinced that it was a crappy call.
The screen shot shows him bending his knee slightly and then him changing direction instead of following through on the knee bend. There?s no need to bend your front knee to change direction, so he was doing it to bait the Bombers that he?d follow through and got called out. It?s no worse than the 10ish calls every single game that are close to 50/50.
Quote from: blue_or_die on June 14, 2023, 10:09:13 PM
The screen shot shows him bending his knee slightly and then him changing direction instead of following through on the knee bend. There?s no need to bend your front knee to change direction, so he was doing it to bait the Bombers that he?d follow through and got called out. It?s no worse than the 10ish calls every single game that are close to 50/50.
Try changing direction without bending your knee. It's not easy.
The call was worse than 90+% of the calls that are made every game. Not close to a 50-50 call.
Bunker's way closer to right than you are.
2 of the 3 people involved in the play -- Proulx and Gauthier -- thought he was taking a knee before he didn't. If Gauthier is fooled, then it's reasonable Proulx is fooled too. The key to the new rule is you cannot try to fool anyone. So by the result of them being fooled, is it not a breaking of the rule?
For those watching the video, especially the live (not slowmo) shot, wouldn't you agree Gauthier had a chance to paste Adeleke but holds up and veers left? It's subtle, but I think Adeleke left his cut too late and would have been creamed. Let me know if you disagree.
Since this Proulx call has 2 different fan forums (probably more) roughly evenly split on good call / marginal call / bad call, the league should clarify. I'm a bit miffed no one asked the question of MOS on the coaches show (I forgot it was on so couldn't call in). If there's a cat forum, someone go check what they think (haha, maybe not).
Since there's usually one "dancer" every couple of weeks, we may not have to wait long before seeing how the teams/players are going to interpret this new precedent.
Quote from: TBURGESS on June 14, 2023, 09:00:06 PM
That screen shot shows him changing direction, not taking a knee. What else you got?
I watched the video too and remain convinced that it was a crappy call.
I would say it qualifies as an unnecessary call as many weak penalty calls turn out to be, Proulx should have just let them play football with so little time remaining on the clock. He certainly drew attention to himself needlessly by making a controversial call at a bad time, if he hadn't blown the play dead nobody would have thought twice about that play.
Looks like B.A. received a fine for the helmet to helmet hit he laid on the Ti-Cat receiver immediately prior to this controversial call. I noticed that one too and thought it should have been called on the spot.
@EdTaitWFC
CFL has issued its Week 1 discipline report. Two notes as it relates to the
@Wpg_BlueBombers
: -Brandon Alexander was fined for a high hit on Ticat receiver Kiondr' Smith -Ticat DT Mohammed Diallo was fined for unnecessary roughness on Geoff Gray.
Another question: if this new rule is applied correctly, are the refs supposed to whistle the play dead immediately upon the "fake", or are they supposed to let the play continue and apply the penalty after?
The answer to that would be important in this case, as the whole point of the exercise was to kill clock. Most in-play penalties are not immediate-blow-dead penalties. Illegal procedure is one of the only ones.
Glad belly-flop Diallo got fined. BA's one is unfortunate. The way he plays, even if he tries to avoid H2H it's going to happen sometimes. That new SSK Dalke FS had at least one H2H in his hellacious-hitful first game... he didn't get fined.
Objectionable conduct is not a kill play, the play goes on despite the objectionable conduct. It?s just like if a player swears obscenaties at the ref, he gets flagged but the play goes on. It just so happens most objectionable conduct penalties happen after the play is dead, but in cases where the play is still live, the play plays out then yardage applied.
Quote from: TBURGESS on June 14, 2023, 10:54:37 PM
Try changing direction without bending your knee. It's not easy.
The call was worse than 90+% of the calls that are made every game. Not close to a 50-50 call.
Bunker's way closer to right than you are.
You most certainly do not, with your knees already slightly bent, need to do another duck forward in order to change direction like Adeleke did. That?s why it looked out of place if that was in fact all he was doing. Proulx and Gauthier and other viewers saw it that way to at least some extent. I never said this was cut and dry, and I already called it chintzy. You saying it?s ?worse than 90% of the close calls made in every game? is going just as far in the other direction.
Quote from: dd on June 15, 2023, 01:42:11 AM
Objectionable conduct is not a kill play, the play goes on despite the objectionable conduct. It?s just like if a player swears obscenaties at the ref, he gets flagged but the play goes on. It just so happens most objectionable conduct penalties happen after the play is dead, but in cases where the play is still live, the play plays out then yardage applied.
Good point. So unless the new rules stipulate something about blowing the play dead, Proulx should have let the play continue.
I don't see how the league can not clarify these situations. It would seem to me that, from a safety standpoint, both a QB or kicker faking this and getting this OC penalty
should result in the play being blown dead. If you let it continue, how is it any safer, other than discouraging said fake in the future?
Found the actual rule in the 2023 rulebook:
Rule 7 - Fouls & Penalties
Section 4 - OC
(f) a
qb or p or k faking giving themself up by
faking a slideSo, a few interesting points:
1. They do have the change to add p or k, which is the new 2022 change. This is correct.
2. They use the verbiage "faking a slide". Clearly a dancing p/k are not going to slide. No p/k ever slides, they either run out of bounds or finally take an awkward knee while their body still has momentum and usually topple over. This verbiage will have to change. It also doesn't take into account a qb trying to fake a knee (say in victory or if he's the guy in the EZ on 3rd down?). I would just change (f) to "a
qb or p or k faking giving themself up" period. No mention of "how", because it doesn't matter.
3. It says nothing about blowing the play dead. That too will have to be added, or Proulx will forever be embarrassed he botched it.
I don't see how the league can sit there and not clarify soon, and/or amend the rule in the off-season.
Quote from: TecnoGenius on June 15, 2023, 06:35:33 AM
Good point. So unless the new rules stipulate something about blowing the play dead, Proulx should have let the play continue.
I don't see how the league can not clarify these situations. It would seem to me that, from a safety standpoint, both a QB or kicker faking this and getting this OC penalty should result in the play being blown dead. If you let it continue, how is it any safer, other than discouraging said fake in the future?
Found the actual rule in the 2023 rulebook:
Rule 7 - Fouls & Penalties
Section 4 - OC
(f) a qb or p or k faking giving themself up by faking a slide
So, a few interesting points:
1. They do have the change to add p or k, which is the new 2022 change. This is correct.
2. They use the verbiage "faking a slide". Clearly a dancing p/k are not going to slide. No p/k ever slides, they either run out of bounds or finally take an awkward knee while their body still has momentum and usually topple over. This verbiage will have to change. It also doesn't take into account a qb trying to fake a knee (say in victory or if he's the guy in the EZ on 3rd down?). I would just change (f) to "a qb or p or k faking giving themself up" period. No mention of "how", because it doesn't matter.
3. It says nothing about blowing the play dead. That too will have to be added, or Proulx will forever be embarrassed he botched it.
I don't see how the league can sit there and not clarify soon, and/or amend the rule in the off-season.
Looking at the penalty, I don't see why they blew the play dead and gave us the extra seconds to work with. Mistake #1.
You're right that the verbiage doesn't include faking taking a knee. That in itself means it shouldn't have been called. Mistake #2.
I'm just guessing here, but I would assume a player who attempts a fake slide would be considered down by contact at the point of the fake slide, which would stop the clock.
Quote from: The Fresh Prince Of Belair, MB on June 15, 2023, 02:53:52 PM
I'm just guessing here, but I would assume a player who attempts a fake slide would be considered down by contact at the point of the fake slide, which would stop the clock.
But the refs are trained to blow the whistle when they see actual DBC, like the QB butt hitting the turf, or the P's knee. I'm not sure a ref has ever blown it dead on the fake itself, because nothing touches the turf.
But you make an interesting point in that even if they don't blow it dead, the ref would probably ask the clock official to set the clock to the time of the fake. However, there are also rules governing that: we'd have to see if the definition of dead ball is when the fake occurs or not. The upshot is, if Proulx let the play run, he may have given us the clock back anyhow.