Poll
Question:
Rate your confidence in Leggs
Option 1: High - mistakes happen, he is our longer term kicker
votes: 17
Option 2: Medium - let the kid learn, give him some more rope
votes: 27
Option 3: Low - can't miss 2 in a row like that, put him on short leash
votes: 15
Option 4: Zero -Look for a new place kicker now
votes: 10
Hot topic
I rated him high. Yes he has some more development and maturity to add to his skill set. The question about any player is do you have someone that is better. The answer is clearly not at the moment.
Now if the Stamps want to trade Paredes to us for a six pack of Pepsi and are willing to absorb most of his 2022 SMS, I'd be interested.
Liegghio could focus on punting as he learns from him etc etc.
Not really a fair question as you can have confidence in him to do ok in most regular season games, and confidence he'll improve, but simultaneously question his ability in last-play kicks and playoff situations...
AND still think we need to look for a playoff kicker.
You know who will probably be somewhat available come playoff time? Castillo. If all else fails, you could trade for Castillo right at the deadline. EDM won't be in the playoffs. EDM can have him back next year and we keep dev'ing Leggs.
My impression before the first miss that Leggs was feeling the pressure , I think generally he has been kicking well but what he has to improve on is the metal part of the pressure kicks.
And I am not sure anyone else would agree but it seemed to me the holding was not very good. I am not sure what the issue was but on the one it seemed to me the ball came down late.
And on the other the holder held the ball differently than I what I am used to seeing at the same time I would be looking for the best FA PKs if I was the Bombers GM.
Leggs got away fairly easy Thurs. night, the game ended abruptly and the fans were shocked into silence by disbelief. If he makes the unfortunate mistake of flubbing multiple makeable kicks again this season at home, IGF fans will be waiting to voice their displeasure for this loss.
Quote from: BBFANDM on August 13, 2022, 04:12:13 AM
My impression before the first miss that Leggs was feeling the pressure , I think generally he has been kicking well but what he has to improve on is the metal part of the pressure kicks.
And I am not sure anyone else would agree but it seemed to me the holding was not very good. I am not sure what the issue was but on the one it seemed to me the ball came down late.
And on the other the holder held the ball differently than I what I am used to seeing at the same time I would be looking for the best FA PKs if I was the Bombers GM.
It looks like the hold was a little slow. I think it threw Leggs off, but next time I would expect he'll be ready. The holder could pull the ball away if it's not going to work. He'll learn from his mistakes like everybody does, I'm sure.
You will never regret the ones you fire.
Why? well there is a reason for it.
Historically, this guy has sucked as a pro. Historically he. Has proven to be not reliable.
It's a simple Question.
Do you want this guy kicking the ? field goal when something coveted is on the line?
You all will probably say no.
This isn't Day care, or pop warner where everyone plays. Or everyone gets a participation medal.
When he chokes, he costs his teammates potential bonuses and playoff money.
Bring that guy back. Who was here but walked out during training camp. Never mind the crappy indoor guy, either. One of the teams must have a. Kicker on the PR. Get him. Or trade for Castillo .
The team has a potential three more years to contend with their ancient roster. Do you want to see management piss it away, like. The Jets did.?
Cut 8 times. Who you ask? Justin Medlock. Also cut 8 times, Bob Cameron.
Myself I remain convinced we have a good kicker, the snap and hold I am not sold on. Needs to be consistent and bullet like speed. I think we could benefit from bringing in a specialist, perhaps even Medlock himself, for a few days to break down what we are doing right and what needs work.
From an old article on Bluebombers.com
Watching Justin Medlock at any Bomber practice this past season is a bit like peering over the shoulder of a master craftsman. He spent hours working with long snapper Chad Rempel and also with holders Weston Dressler and Matt Nichols on the art of holding.
And yes, all of this is like art to Medlock. It?s his craft and he will not settle. Get this: Even after all he?s done this season, he still figures there?s more to learn, more room for improvement.
?I just think in order to be a true pro you?ve got to take your craft seriously,? he said. ?I?m very knowledgeable with the kicking game and special teams in general. Just the knowledge of kicking helps me? some people just think about the kicking and it comes down to everybody, from the snap to the hold, but those guys have really helped me.
https://www.bluebombers.com/2016/11/22/long-read-the-medlock-story/
The hold was messed up on the first kick. Benson snapped the ball off and Prucop had to reach. When leggs kicked the ball the timing was thrown off. Benson was off all night snapping the ball all over the place. The overtime kick was unlucky it hit the post. Move on. The whole team played terrible. We needed to lose and it happened. The team wanted this game over so they could get a by week.
Quote from: Waffler on August 13, 2022, 12:58:48 PM
Cut 8 times. Who you ask? Justin Medlock. Also cut 8 times, Bob Cameron.
Myself I remain convinced we have a good kicker, the snap and hold I am not sold on. Needs to be consistent and bullet like speed. I think we could benefit from bringing in a specialist, perhaps even Medlock himself, for a few days to break down what we are doing right and what needs work.
From an old article on Bluebombers.com
Watching Justin Medlock at any Bomber practice this past season is a bit like peering over the shoulder of a master craftsman. He spent hours working with long snapper Chad Rempel and also with holders Weston Dressler and Matt Nichols on the art of holding.
And yes, all of this is like art to Medlock. It?s his craft and he will not settle. Get this: Even after all he?s done this season, he still figures there?s more to learn, more room for improvement.
?I just think in order to be a true pro you?ve got to take your craft seriously,? he said. ?I?m very knowledgeable with the kicking game and special teams in general. Just the knowledge of kicking helps me? some people just think about the kicking and it comes down to everybody, from the snap to the hold, but those guys have really helped me.
https://www.bluebombers.com/2016/11/22/long-read-the-medlock-story/
He was not well liked. Aggressive with the snapper holder. I guess being a vet makes it OK. Leggs needs to work with Benson and holder ? That keeps changing. They need time to work it out.
Quote from: TecnoGenius on August 13, 2022, 03:59:53 AM
Not really a fair question as you can have confidence in him to do ok in most regular season games, and confidence he'll improve, but simultaneously question his ability in last-play kicks and playoff situations...
AND still think we need to look for a playoff kicker.
You know who will probably be somewhat available come playoff time? Castillo. If all else fails, you could trade for Castillo right at the deadline. EDM won't be in the playoffs. EDM can have him back next year and we keep dev'ing Leggs.
Nope, nope and nope. Barring injury Liegghio will be our kicker all of 2022. We won't be trading for a kicker out of the play offs because of your perceived need for a " play off " quality kicker.
Liegghio has a better current success rate than Castillo at the moment BTW.
Quote from: DM83 on August 13, 2022, 12:11:54 PM
You will never regret the ones you fire.
Why? well there is a reason for it.
Historically, this guy has sucked as a pro. Historically he. Has proven to be not reliable.
It's a simple Question.
Do you want this guy kicking the ? field goal when something coveted is on the line?
You all will probably say no.
This isn't Day care, or pop warner where everyone plays. Or everyone gets a participation medal.
When he chokes, he costs his teammates potential bonuses and playoff money.
Bring that guy back. Who was here but walked out during training camp. Never mind the crappy indoor guy, either. One of the teams must have a. Kicker on the PR. Get him. Or trade for Castillo .
The team has a potential three more years to contend with their ancient roster. Do you want to see management piss it away, like. The Jets did.?
Geez. Step back from the ledge.
Holders
Prukop:
FG 4 of 7, convert 12 of 13 80%
Mancusco:
FG 14 of 16, convert 13 of 16 84%
Still think the whole operation needs work. Not sure we have the coaches here to do it.
Quote from: Blue In BC on August 13, 2022, 01:19:29 PM
Nope, nope and nope. Barring injury Liegghio will be our kicker all of 2022. We won't be trading for a kicker out of the play offs because of your perceived need for a " play off " quality kicker.
Liegghio has a better current success rate than Castillo at the moment BTW.
I'm fine with that as long as the Bombers never put Leggs in a position to determine the outcome of a playoff game.
Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on August 13, 2022, 03:33:50 PM
I'm fine with that as long as the Bombers never put Leggs in a position to determine the outcome of a playoff game.
And how do you propose we do that? We can't determine the outcome on the next play let alone what situation we might be during a playoff game. Add to that weather will also become a factor, wet cold and wind for a game probably played in Winnipeg.
It's no different than being in the position on offence needing to score with 1:30 left in our end on 3rd and 15. Everybody has a role to achieve to avoid tenuous situations.
The best solution is for the rest of the team to wind up with a significant lead.
Quote from: Tee42 on August 13, 2022, 01:02:15 PM
The hold was messed up on the first kick. Benson snapped the ball off and Prucop had to reach. When leggs kicked the ball the timing was thrown off. Benson was off all night snapping the ball all over the place. The overtime kick was unlucky it hit the post. Move on. The whole team played terrible. We needed to lose and it happened. The team wanted this game over so they could get a by week.
So I listened to the post game show on my way home from the game. They interviewed a number of Bombers including O'Shea. None of them mentioned a bad hold. Neither did Doug Brown who was clearly unhappy with Legg's performance but very diplomatic about it. Neither did our new Bob Irving (forget his name). So immediately post game there was no indication of any bad holds.
In today's Free Press there are 3 Bomber articles penned by 3 different sports writers, including one with a Leggs interview. All 3 comment on Leggs two missed kicks and there is absolutely no mention of bad or even slow holds. Including by Leggio (granted he may not want to point the finger).
Maybe the holds weren't absolutely perfect. But none of the media covering the Bombers, the coach or the kicker are mentioning it, unless I missed something.
Love the Bombers. We have the team to win a 3rd Grey Cup. And we have a great punter. Just need a clutch place kicker.
"Although his punting has improved, Liegghio clearly can't be counted on to make the shot when it matters." - Jeff Hamilton Free Press
Quote from: gordo on August 13, 2022, 04:24:51 PM
So I listened to the post game show on my way home from the game. They interviewed a number of Bombers including O'Shea. None of them mentioned a bad hold. Neither did Doug Brown who was clearly unhappy with Legg's performance but very diplomatic about it. Neither did our new Bob Irving (forget his name). So immediately post game there was no indication of any bad holds.
In today's Free Press there are 3 Bomber articles penned by 3 different sports writers, including one with a Leggs interview. All 3 comment on Leggs two missed kicks and there is absolutely no mention of bad or even slow holds. Including by Leggio (granted he may not want to point the finger).
Maybe the holds weren't absolutely perfect. But none of the media covering the Bombers, the coach or the kicker are mentioning it, unless I missed something.
Love the Bombers. We have the team to win a 3rd Grey Cup. And we have a great punter. Just need a clutch place kicker.
? Although his punting has improved, Liegghio clearly can?t be counted on to make the shot when it matters.? - Jeff Hamilton Free Press
I haven't re-watched the game yet.
Even with a bad hold, the kick usually travels further. I'm not sure if there was a bad hold but I think there might have been a timing issue. That caused a poor follow thru I suppose. That's the best I can figure out.
We've seen lots of missed converts, missed FG's and the odd tipped ball at LOS. I can't remember a miss quite like this one recently.
Quote from: gordo on August 13, 2022, 04:24:51 PM
So I listened to the post game show on my way home from the game. They interviewed a number of Bombers including O'Shea. None of them mentioned a bad hold. Neither did Doug Brown who was clearly unhappy with Legg's performance but very diplomatic about it. Neither did our new Bob Irving (forget his name). So immediately post game there was no indication of any bad holds.
In today's Free Press there are 3 Bomber articles penned by 3 different sports writers, including one with a Leggs interview. All 3 comment on Leggs two missed kicks and there is absolutely no mention of bad or even slow holds. Including by Leggio (granted he may not want to point the finger).
Maybe the holds weren't absolutely perfect. But none of the media covering the Bombers, the coach or the kicker are mentioning it, unless I missed something.
Love the Bombers. We have the team to win a 3rd Grey Cup. And we have a great punter. Just need a clutch place kicker.
? Although his punting has improved, Liegghio clearly can?t be counted on to make the shot when it matters.? - Jeff Hamilton Free Press
Not saying the hold was so bad it was not recoverable enough for a VETERAN kicker to hammer it out the back of the end zone but I do agree it caused a hitch in the wind up. Perhaps doubt in Leggs mind. The kicker has to have iron clad confidence the ball is gonna be there on time. Maybe Leggs also needs to work on his focus but I will say what you want is consistency from all 3. Not seeing it.
https://youtu.be/7VOqhnEg5CA?t=466
Here's the play. Lucky Prukop has long arms. Telling to me is that Leggs looks at Prukop right away.
Quote from: Waffler on August 13, 2022, 04:39:51 PM
Not saying the hold was so bad it was not recoverable enough for a VETERAN kicker to hammer it out the back of the end zone but I do agree it caused a hitch in the wind up. Perhaps doubt in Leggs mind. The kicker has to have iron clad confidence the ball is gonna be there on time. Maybe Leggs also needs to work on his focus but I will say what you want is consistency from all 3. Not seeing it.
Good point. Most of the problem still falls on the kicker. When we lined up to kick that seemed like a given that we'd score a single at the very least even on a bad kick.
He needs to learn from this game.
Quote from: Blue In BC on August 13, 2022, 04:18:11 PM
And how do you propose we do that? We can't determine the outcome on the next play let alone what situation we might be during a playoff game. Add to that weather will also become a factor, wet cold and wind for a game probably played in Winnipeg.
It's no different than being in the position on offence needing to score with 1:30 left in our end on 3rd and 15. Everybody has a role to achieve to avoid tenuous situations.
The best solution is for the rest of the team to wind up with a significant lead.
Agreed, nothing is ever guaranteed but if they play well enough during the game they can avoid having to rely on Leggs to pull a win out of the fire in the last minutes. It is doable, for example they've played well enough this season to avoid this scenario up until their 10th game, 10 games away is the Grey Cup, if he self destructs in the playoffs in a similar fashion, he'll never hear the end of it.
The other option, is to relieve Leggs of F.G. and convert duties and only use him for punting and kickoffs, like they did last year.
I can't believe I'm reading that 'argument' that if we'd played better then our kicker wouldn't have had to make a convert length kick. ::)
We pay Leggz to make those kicks. He should be happy that he has a chance to make an 'easy' kick to win the game. Hero time. When he blew it, he should have been happy to get a 2nd chance to be the hero on another short kick. Neither were pressure kicks. Neither were long kicks. Neither were 'hard' kicks. They were kicks that should be almost automatic, but Leggz got a MUFF and a DOINK.
Quote from: TBURGESS on August 13, 2022, 05:47:00 PM
I can't believe I'm reading that 'argument' that if we'd played better then our kicker wouldn't have had to make a convert length kick. ::)
We pay Leggz to make those kicks. He should be happy that he has a chance to make an 'easy' kick to win the game. Hero time. When he blew it, he should have been happy to get a 2nd chance to be the hero on another short kick. Neither were pressure kicks. Neither were long kicks. Neither were 'hard' kicks. They were kicks that should be almost automatic, but Leggz got a MUFF and a DOINK.
That's not the point. There were several mistakes which put us in that position. Obviously if it comes down to a kick, then we expect that kicker to make that FG.
You're right that neither kick should have been difficult. The 1st one was shorter and a chance to avoid OT. Gotta make those.
Quote from: TBURGESS on August 13, 2022, 05:47:00 PM
I can't believe I'm reading that 'argument' that if we'd played better then our kicker wouldn't have had to make a convert length kick. ::)
We pay Leggz to make those kicks. He should be happy that he has a chance to make an 'easy' kick to win the game. Hero time. When he blew it, he should have been happy to get a 2nd chance to be the hero on another short kick. Neither were pressure kicks. Neither were long kicks. Neither were 'hard' kicks. They were kicks that should be almost automatic, but Leggz got a MUFF and a DOINK.
He really missed the game winner badly. He knocked the OT one off the post. Both misses for sure, but context is important. Yes, both kicks are easy. In theory, it also would have been easy to:
1) not line up offside
2) run the ball instead and avoid the risk of fumble on the fourth quarter drive
3) protect Zach better
Quote from: gordo on August 13, 2022, 04:24:51 PM
So I listened to the post game show on my way home from the game. They interviewed a number of Bombers including O'Shea. None of them mentioned a bad hold. Neither did Doug Brown who was clearly unhappy with Legg's performance but very diplomatic about it. Neither did our new Bob Irving (forget his name). So immediately post game there was no indication of any bad holds.
In today's Free Press there are 3 Bomber articles penned by 3 different sports writers, including one with a Leggs interview. All 3 comment on Leggs two missed kicks and there is absolutely no mention of bad or even slow holds. Including by Leggio (granted he may not want to point the finger).
Maybe the holds weren't absolutely perfect. But none of the media covering the Bombers, the coach or the kicker are mentioning it, unless I missed something.
Love the Bombers. We have the team to win a 3rd Grey Cup. And we have a great punter. Just need a clutch place kicker.
"Although his punting has improved, Liegghio clearly can't be counted on to make the shot when it matters." - Jeff Hamilton Free Press
key word being clutch! ;) :D
Quote from: Sir Blue and Gold on August 13, 2022, 07:48:33 PM
He really missed the game winner badly. He knocked the OT one off the post. Both misses for sure, but context is important. Yes, both kicks are easy. In theory, it also would have been easy to:
1) not line up offside
2) run the ball instead and avoid the risk of fumble on the fourth quarter drive
3) protect Zach better
None of those things mattered at the end. We still put ourselves in a position to win the game with an 'easy' FG.
If I were MOS, I'd have had Leggs wait until 5 seconds on the clock and call the timeout (IIRC we still had one). Then Leggz doesn't have to think about getting the ball off quickly, he can focus on simply kicking the FG when he wants to. Reduces any pressure that he may have felt.
My concern is that if leggy misses one we have seen on multiple occasions he misses another...that is a dangerous pattern and one that will sink a kicker. You have to be able to flush the bad one and make the next.
Quote from: The Zipp on August 13, 2022, 09:27:03 PM
My concern is that if leggy misses one we have seen on multiple occasions he misses another...that is a dangerous pattern and one that will sink a kicker. You have to be able to flush the bad one and make the next.
Sure but that's the same for every kicker. The more experienced the kicker is, the easier he can flush the miss. I know he missed a couple of other kicks but don't immediately recall distance or wind impact. But even with the 2 misses this week he's still in the top 3 or 4 in success rating. If the stats are correct he had connected on 19 / 21 before this week + 2 missed converts He was in a position to. So saying " multiple " is a bit overkill.
Two misses at a critical time can't be over looked either. He was in a reasonable position to win the game. I don't think he gets a short leash but every missed kick will come under scrutiny.
If it was another Rider missing either of those, there would be a ton of fertilizer on his front yard. Even the best of them have missed critical kicks.
Quote from: Blue In BC on August 13, 2022, 09:39:38 PM
Sure but that's the same for every kicker. The more experienced the kicker is, the easier he can flush the miss. I know he missed a couple of other kicks but don't immediately recall distance or wind impact. But even with the 2 misses this week he's still in the top 3 or 4 in success rating. If the stats are correct he had connected on 19 / 21 before this week + 2 missed converts He was in a position to. So saying " multiple " is a bit overkill.
Two misses at a critical time can't be over looked either. He was in a reasonable position to win the game. I don't think he gets a short leash but every missed kick will come under scrutiny.
If it was another Rider missing either of those, there would be a ton of fertilizer on his front yard. Even the best of them have missed critical kicks.
And that directly corresponds with I think Dave Ritchie saying how young players can cost you a game...forget the exact phrase...Rutledge too with his penalty...growing pains and no kicker will be perfect...we won in TO cause Bede shanked one...
Inexperience = the greater chance of a loss.
Still stinks as we had that game despite not playing well in the first half.
Quote from: The Zipp on August 13, 2022, 09:27:03 PM
My concern is that if leggy misses one we have seen on multiple occasions he misses another...that is a dangerous pattern and one that will sink a kicker. You have to be able to flush the bad one and make the next.
I was saying this post game as well. He really gets in his own head and I worry about him in high stress situations (like any kick in the play-offs).
Quote from: Blue In BC on August 13, 2022, 01:19:29 PM
Nope, nope and nope. Barring injury Liegghio will be our kicker all of 2022. We won't be trading for a kicker out of the play offs because of your perceived need for a " play off " quality kicker.
Liegghio has a better current success rate than Castillo at the moment BTW.
Quote from: Blue In BC on August 13, 2022, 02:41:50 PM
Geez. Step back from the ledge.
Agreex2
I voted high
I rewatched the end of the game today, I thought the snap was wide left and Prukop had to reach, and was slow to set it.
It for sure messed up the timing.
We all know the kickers we've run out of town in the past, lets not make that same mistake again.
How are you suppossed to learn & grow if you can't make a mistake?
Quote from: NewBlue on August 13, 2022, 10:42:44 PM
I rewatched the end of the game today, I thought the snap was wide left and Prukop had to reach, and was slow to set it.
It for sure messed up the timing.
We all know the kickers we've run out of town in the past, lets not make that same mistake again.
How are you suppossed to learn & grow if you can't make a mistake?
Agree with everything. Many fans including a bunch on here don't have enough patience. This organization has been successful as they build the team through consistency and player development. That's the recipe foe success with Leggs. He will get better if you have faith and allow him to iron out the wrinkles with his snapper and holder. Its too bad we ran those other kickers out of town but sure proud of what they did when they left.
Thank you for taking interest. Game winning kick not his fault. There has never been a game where Leggs has shanked a ball like that. The holding timing and snapping was off. Overtime field-goal hitting post?. bad luck. Leggs can do it, fans need to rally behind him and not add additional pressure. Leggs had the same holder for five years in university. Makes the job much easier when you have confidence in your snapper and holder.
Quote from: Tee42 on August 14, 2022, 02:33:03 AM
Thank you for taking interest. Game winning kick not his fault. There has never been a game where Leggs has shanked a ball like that. The holding timing and snapping was off. Overtime field-goal hitting post?. bad luck. Leggs can do it, fans need to rally behind him and not add additional pressure. Leggs had the same holder for five years in university. Makes the job much easier when you have confidence in your snapper and holder.
I like your attitude son!
Quote from: NewBlue on August 13, 2022, 10:42:44 PM
I rewatched the end of the game today, I thought the snap was wide left and Prukop had to reach, and was slow to set it.
It for sure messed up the timing.
We all know the kickers we've run out of town in the past, lets not make that same mistake again.
How are you suppossed to learn & grow if you can't make a mistake?
Yes, it was slightly wide. However, I'd say 20%+ of CFL FG snaps are that wide. It's the holder's job to recover. He recovered perfectly from what I saw. Looked flawless. Certainly good enough that the
good CFL kickers make that 32 yarder 95%+ of the time or get the single.
Since when have we ever, on this forum, tried so desperately to find excuses for a kicker botching it so badly? No one backed up H{lotsofletters}'s 5 misses in 1 game. No one tried to find evidence of a bad hold that is not remotely visible on screen. Ya, we like this kid Leggs and want him to win, but the lengths some are going through is unprecedented.
And again, don't need to cut Leggs; we can helicopter in someone for playoffs or even right now and dress both (yes, losing a DI). Leggs still might make a good long term prospect but we need playoff insurance.
Leggs is what, 24 games into his career? Not even 2 seasons? And we're expecting him to react to a bad snap without flinching?
Even though Prokup might have gotten the ball into place, it gave Leggs a startle. Yes, he has to learn from this, and no doubt he will. He has been money so far this year, and we are 9-1 with him kicking, many of those games won by the FG's he has kicked.
The more situations he is in like this, the more he will learn, the more conditioned he will be to trust his holder and focus purely on the kick. Its muscle memory for most of kicking, but something out of the ordinary happening can startle any player, and a kid in his sophomore season, c'mon.
He struggled in his rookie season, we brought in Castillo as insurance, and it paid off, and Leggs probably learned a lot in that time. He's been one of the best kickers so far this year, handling all three jobs as a Nat. Gives us roster flexibility.
As to anyone suggesting "we are paying him to..." anything, he's on his ELC. He's not getting Castillo numbers...
So, one game aside, we are getting more than our money's worth, and roster flexibility.
And he's still a darned good kicker with a career ahead of him.
Always felt Legghio would cost us a game or two.. didn't think it would be this important game where he missed two in a row.. If we want to win the Grey Cup.. need a new kicker ASAP.
Quote from: theaardvark on August 14, 2022, 05:36:14 AM
Leggs is what, 24 games into his career? Not even 2 seasons? And we're expecting him to react to a bad snap without flinching?
Even though Prokup might have gotten the ball into place, it gave Leggs a startle. Yes, he has to learn from this, and no doubt he will. He has been money so far this year, and we are 9-1 with him kicking, many of those games won by the FG's he has kicked.
The more situations he is in like this, the more he will learn, the more conditioned he will be to trust his holder and focus purely on the kick. Its muscle memory for most of kicking, but something out of the ordinary happening can startle any player, and a kid in his sophomore season, c'mon.
He struggled in his rookie season, we brought in Castillo as insurance, and it paid off, and Leggs probably learned a lot in that time. He's been one of the best kickers so far this year, handling all three jobs as a Nat. Gives us roster flexibility.
As to anyone suggesting "we are paying him to..." anything, he's on his ELC. He's not getting Castillo numbers...
So, one game aside, we are getting more than our money's worth, and roster flexibility.
And he's still a darned good kicker with a career ahead of him.
Whether they replace Leggs as the FG kicker depends how secure Walters wishes to be going into the playoffs, luckily they have a couple more byes after this one to evaluate and shop for a kicker, so plenty of time left to decide. I trust he will evaluate with the cold rationality he has used to build this team into repeating G.C. champions heading towards their 3rd attempt. No matter his decision Leggs will still hang onto his job as the punter, so he will still have time to develop his craft and overcome his flaws. Unfortunately this last game was not a "one-off", Leggs has demonstrated multiple times in his short career that he gets rattled or confused by earlier misses and has not demonstrated the ability to self-correct quickly enough.
Fact is this season the Bombers have legitimate challengers to their throne, a 3rd G.C. victory is not a given, considering how close the margin of victory has been in multiple games already this season, it will be a challenge even winning the West. Chances R we will see another last minute trial for Leggs, he must prove he can ace his next exam and not be thrown off by any distraction, full stop. If the egg cracks again, it must be replaced.
Quote from: TecnoGenius on August 14, 2022, 04:37:07 AM
Yes, it was slightly wide. However, I'd say 20%+ of CFL FG snaps are that wide. It's the holder's job to recover. He recovered perfectly from what I saw. Looked flawless. Certainly good enough that the good CFL kickers make that 32 yarder 95%+ of the time or get the single.
Since when have we ever, on this forum, tried so desperately to find excuses for a kicker botching it so badly? No one backed up H{lotsofletters}'s 5 misses in 1 game. No one tried to find evidence of a bad hold that is not remotely visible on screen. Ya, we like this kid Leggs and want him to win, but the lengths some are going through is unprecedented.
And again, don't need to cut Leggs; we can helicopter in someone for playoffs or even right now and dress both (yes, losing a DI). Leggs still might make a good long term prospect but we need playoff insurance.
Agree. Two good points bolded.
Saying we need to give the kid time to develop and he will be a good kicker is valid. And if we were the Elks I'd say it doesn't matter this year so let's give him time. Difference is we are favourites to win the Grey Cup and one important thing that could sink the ship is missed field goals in pressure situations in the West Final or Grey Cup game. It's not worth the risk to
not helicopter someone in.
So I think if they can swing it, then let's keep Legs and let him develop but get someone in for playoffs.
Be honest, how nervous are you if Leggs trots out to attempt a 40 yarder to win the West Final? 45 yarder? 50 yarder?
Quote from: gordo on August 14, 2022, 04:35:32 PM
Agree. Two good points bolded.
Saying we need to give the kid time to develop and he will be a good kicker is valid. And if we were the Elks I'd say it doesn't matter this year so let's give him time. Difference is we are favourites to win the Grey Cup and one important thing that could sink the ship is missed field goals in pressure situations in the West Final or Grey Cup game. It's not worth the risk to not helicopter someone in.
So I think if they can swing it, then let's keep Legs and let him develop but get someone in for playoffs.
Be honest, how nervous are you if Leggs trots out to attempt a 40 yarder to win the West Final? 45 yarder? 50 yarder?
I guess the issue is to put games away by the third quarter, let the D shut them down in the 4th, and never put Leggs into the situation where we need him to kick a 55 yarder for the win...
Just one example of short missed FG's from 2022
David Cote MISSES his 1st field goal of the night from 21 yards away in the dying seconds of the 4th quarter.
The Argonauts hang on and win their home opener, 20-19 final.
Note: CFL.CA shows 2 blocked kicks this year. 6 in 2019 and 6 in 2021. Compare that to the number of FG's that are missed for one reason or another versus problems with punts.
EDIT: I'd guess a similar number of roughing or contacting the kicker penalties ( perhaps more ) than blocked punts in a season. Not sure where to track that info.
I gave Leggs a 7 out of 10 in the last Pj rating Leggs system that has now dropped to 5 out of 10. No question he takes a great chunk of the responsibility of losing that game.
Quote from: Blue In BC on August 14, 2022, 05:58:44 PM
Just one example of short missed FG's from 2022
David Cote MISSES his 1st field goal of the night from 21 yards away in the dying seconds of the 4th quarter.
The Argonauts hang on and win their home opener, 20-19 final.
Note: CFL.CA shows 2 blocked kicks this year. 6 in 2019 and 6 in 2021. Compare that to the number of FG's that are missed for one reason or another versus problems with punts.
Just 5 years ago....
https://www.cfl.ca/2017/10/26/medlock-attempting-kick-untimely-slump/
Time for a change. Pressure situation not an excuse. There will be more pressure situations. BB will not win another GC with kicker choking with game on the line. Last night Lions were in similar situation. Time running out, similar FG distance, no problem for Whyte. BB kicker situation has been problematic since Medlock left. Since then 3 established kickers, Bede, Whyte & Castillo have changed teams. Why couldn't BB snag one of those guys? Management asleep?
Redblacks need a lot of help. O'Shea has good connection with Lapo. How about trading somebody to get Lewis Ward here?
Quote from: guyinfla89 on August 14, 2022, 06:37:10 PM
Time for a change. Pressure situation not an excuse. There will be more pressure situations. BB will not win another GC with kicker choking with game on the line. Last night Lions were in similar situation. Time running out, similar FG distance, no problem for Whyte. BB kicker situation has been problematic since Medlock left. Since then 3 established kickers, Bede, Whyte & Castillo have changed teams. Why couldn't BB snag one of those guys? Management asleep?
Redblacks need a lot of help. O'Shea has good connection with Lapo. How about trading somebody to get Lewis Ward here?
And there it is. The same suggestion to trade for Ward which was discussed in length previously. " Time for a change" comment?
Just a question here but will we hear any other posts from this newbie on any other subject?
Or is this new incarnation of our 2022 troll?
Sure as long as we're throwing out garbage ideas. Let's trade Collaros for Ward. In 2 games against the Als, he threw 3 pics, fumbled twice and got sacked 8 times. That's unacceptable. :)
Curious about those in the poll suggesting to have him on a short lease. What would be the immediate solution? Activate Moutada? It's not like we can bench Liegghio during the game and not attempt FG's or not ever kick converts.
trade every player at the first sign of adversity. Abandon development of any player, in exchange for a player at the end of his career. If only Palardy hadn't beaten Paredes out in camp, we might be watching the best kicker in CFL history in Blue and Gold.
And Paredes wasn't that great in his first year... its a wonder CGY stuck with him... oh, I forgot, Huff knows how to develop players...
Quote from: theaardvark on August 14, 2022, 07:05:44 PM
trade every player at the first sign of adversity. Abandon development of any player, in exchange for a player at the end of his career. If only Palardy hadn't beaten Paredes out in camp, we might be watching the best kicker in CFL history in Blue and Gold.
And Paredes wasn't that great in his first year... its a wonder CGY stuck with him... oh, I forgot, Huff knows how to develop players...
Medlock was the best kicker in CFL history, Parades doesn't punt and the Stamps rarely push him beyond 45 yds.
MOS is sticking with Leggs, we ll see how this plays out. One bad hold and we re looking for the axe.
One thing I must say, is I admire and respect how Legs didn?t throw his holder under the bus on this one where it was obvious from the point of contact that there was something wrong with the hold. No way a ball comes out like that properly held.
Quote from: dd on August 14, 2022, 07:23:09 PM
MOS is sticking with Leggs, we ll see how this plays out. One bad hold and we re looking for the axe.
One thing I must say, is I admire and respect how Legs didn?t throw his holder under the bus on this one where it was obvious from the point of contact that there was something wrong with the hold. No way a ball comes out like that properly held.
The hold is clearly visible in the video, a kicking expert needs to step forth and tell us exactly what is wrong with the hold, because to my untrained eye it looks exactly like a good hold should.
Looked to me like he held the ball between his thumb and index finger. Not saying that?s wrong, but I always thought it should just be your index finger on the tip of the ball.
If we want GC this yr there's no time for a kicker development program. Fact is we won't win GC & might not win the West without a kicker who can deliver under pressure. Lions are right behind us, Rourke looking like Tom Brady and they don't have a kicker problem.
Redblacks need help, won't make playoffs with crossover certain, they have time to develop players. Why not Offer Leggs + draft choices for Ward?
Quote from: guyinfla89 on August 14, 2022, 08:31:17 PM
If we want GC this yr there's no time for a kicker development program. Fact is we won't win GC & might not win the West without a kicker who can deliver under pressure. Lions are right behind us, Rourke looking like Tom Brady and they don't have a kicker problem.
Redblacks need help, won't make playoffs with crossover certain, they have time to develop players. Why not Offer Leggs + draft choices for Ward?
In the CFL the RB could be grey cup champions next year. I don't know what year Ward is on in his contract either.
Quote from: guyinfla89 on August 14, 2022, 08:31:17 PM
If we want GC this yr there's no time for a kicker development program. Fact is we won't win GC & might not win the West without a kicker who can deliver under pressure. Lions are right behind us, Rourke looking like Tom Brady and they don't have a kicker problem.
Redblacks need help, won't make playoffs with crossover certain, they have time to develop players. Why not Offer Leggs + draft choices for Ward?
As to BC not having a kicker problem... Sean Whyte is 14 of 16 for 87.5%, Leggs is 19 of 23 for 82.6%. Not a huge difference...
If you are trading for a "rental" the the RB don't want a kicker back, because they will be getting Ward back...
If your kicker is the difference between winning and losing, your O and D aren't doing enough. We have both that should make that difference.
Were are midway through year two with a kicker who has been perfect on FG in 8 of 10 games so far this year. One bad kick, and one near miss and suddenly everyone is panicked. MOS is a great coach, and will get Leggs to where we need him to be. He is light years ahead of last year, and is just getting better.
Quote from: theaardvark on August 14, 2022, 07:05:44 PM
trade every player at the first sign of adversity. Abandon development of any player, in exchange for a player at the end of his career. If only Palardy hadn't beaten Paredes out in camp, we might be watching the best kicker in CFL history in Blue and Gold.
And Paredes wasn't that great in his first year... its a wonder CGY stuck with him... oh, I forgot, Huff knows how to develop players...
Love it, seen that movie play out on the forum 3 years ago. 2 cups later, patience paid off.
Quote from: Blue In BC on August 14, 2022, 06:52:59 PM
Curious about those in the poll suggesting to have him on a short lease. What would be the immediate solution? Activate Moutada? It's not like we can bench Liegghio during the game and not attempt FG's or not ever kick converts.
Exactly, off topic but one of our receivers are the backup kicker can't recall who, cjob had a story about this few games ago, anyone recall?
Quote from: pjrocksmb on August 14, 2022, 09:30:39 PM
Love it, seen that movie play out on the forum 3 years ago. 2 cups later, patience paid off.Exactly, off topic but one of our receivers are the backup kicker can't recall who, cjob had a story about this few games ago, anyone recall?
Ellingson.
Quote from: theaardvark on August 14, 2022, 09:06:23 PM
As to BC not having a kicker problem... Sean Whyte is 14 of 16 for 87.5%, Leggs is 19 of 23 for 82.6%. Not a huge difference...
If you are trading for a "rental" the the RB don't want a kicker back, because they will be getting Ward back...
If your kicker is the difference between winning and losing, your O and D aren't doing enough. We have both that should make that difference.
Were are midway through year two with a kicker who has been perfect on FG in 8 of 10 games so far this year. One bad kick, and one near miss and suddenly everyone is panicked. MOS is a great coach, and will get Leggs to where we need him to be. He is light years ahead of last year, and is just getting better.
The Bombers don't win the 2021 G.C. without Castillo going 5/5. How happy are you with O'Shea now if he rolled into that game with Leggs having to match that output? Now imagine the dark future....
O'Shea can't do anything for Leggs except give him the time and opportunity to improve his worth, he throws his players off the dock and they either sink or swim, his entire mantra is based on self-initiative and accountability to team-mates. If you think he's down there coaching him up on the art of kicking, you're out-to-lunch.
Quote from: gordo on August 14, 2022, 04:35:32 PM
Be honest, how nervous are you if Leggs trots out to attempt a 40 yarder to win the West Final? 45 yarder? 50 yarder?
I'd be most nervous with a 32 yarder, as that's the distance he's missed most this year (when you include PATs). We've seen in the past K's that have trouble with the 32 for some odd reason. They don't usually last long. That one needs to be 95%.
It's funny, but I'd feel better with Leggs doing a 40-45. It's the 30-37 and 50+ range that would make me nervous. The PAT-bug is in his head, and it won't fly out.
Quote from: theaardvark on August 14, 2022, 09:06:23 PM
As to BC not having a kicker problem... Sean Whyte is 14 of 16 for 87.5%, Leggs is 19 of 23 for 82.6%. Not a huge difference...
To be fair, we need to include 1-pt converts:
* Whyte is 14/16 on FGs, and 31/32 on 1-pt converts. That is 45/48 = 93.75%
* Leggs is 19/23 on FGs, and 20/24 on 1-pt converts. That is 39/47 = 82.98%
I'd say that ~10% is a pretty sizable difference; I haven't done the math but within a single game I'd estimate that works out to 2 or 3 points, on average.
If we look other kickers around the league, I've sorted them by overall successful kicking rate and included BC and Wpg:
* Seth Small (HAM) - 12/13 FGs, 9/9 1-pt converts. Total = 21/22 = 95.4%
* Rene Paredes (CGY) - 28/31 FGs, 21/21 1-pt converts. Total = 49/52 = 94.2%
*
Sean Whyte (BC) - 14/16 FGs, 31/32 1-pt converts. Total = 45/48 = 93.75%* David Cote (MTL) - 22/27 FGs, 17/17 1-pt converts. Total = 39/44 = 88.6%
* Lewis Ward (OTT) - 20/24 FGs, 9/10 1-pt converts. Total = 29/34 = 85.3%
* Boris Bede (TOR) - 21/26 FGs, 12/13 1-pt converts. Total = 33/39 = 84.6%
* Brett Lauther (SSK) - 24/28 FGs, 11/13 1-pt converts. Total = 35/42 = 83.3%
*
Leggs (WPG) - 19/23 FGs, 20/24 on 1-pt converts. Total = 39/47 = 83.0%* Sergio Castillo (EDM) - 21/26 FGs, 8/10 1-pt converts. Total = 29/36 = 80.6%
* Michael Domagala (HAM) - 12/16 FGs, 4/5 1-pt converts. Total = 16/21 = 76.2%
I think it's hard to look at these numbers and
not have some concerns (if you combine HAM's two kickers, their combined success rate is 86.0% meaning that as a team, Wpg has the second-lowest kicking success rate in the league).
Source: https://www.cfl.ca/stats/?stat_category=field_goals&season=2022 (Date accessed: Aug 14, 2022)
Why don?t you analyze greater than 30 and less than 30.
Keep in mind teams that cant score touch downs rely on their kicking game. Where Winnipeg really hasn?t had to do that in the past. Winnipeg has played the field position game and we have done it very well with leggs punting game. Our special teams coverage has struggled.
This year Winnipeg doesn?t appear to be as strong. Our team has struggled and let?s be honest we have been very lucky in a lot of games. Do you really believe we should be nine and one? This year is not going to be easy. It?s a team effort. Teams will get stronger week by week. Our weaknesses will be flushed out very easily. Don?t blame the kicking game.
Quote from: Tee42 on August 15, 2022, 02:55:21 AM
Why don?t you analyze greater than 30 and less than 30.
Actually, I'd cut it off at 32 and under vs over-32. 32 PAT was chosen by the league for a reason. Of course, we're asking others to do the work/math for us ;) ;) ;) I think Junkie did distance breakdowns in the past on older threads (maybe last year?). Those types of stats always come up once our K starts costing us...
Quote from: Tee42 on August 15, 2022, 02:55:21 AM
This year Winnipeg doesn?t appear to be as strong. Our team has struggled and let?s be honest we have been very lucky in a lot of games. Do you really believe we should be nine and one? This year is not going to be easy. It?s a team effort. Teams will get stronger week by week. Our weaknesses will be flushed out very easily. Don?t blame the kicking game.
Hmm. Good question. I actually say "yes"! Because in ever case we found a way to win. Maybe we got 1 sheer-luck win, just like MTL just did to us? And the MTL game should have been won putting us 10-0.
I'd liken us to HAM vs TOR, BC vs CGY, and SSK vs EDM this week. TOR was looking very good, CGY was winning bigly, and EDM was doing very well. Then the winning teams found a way to win. You could see it on the field in every case. The team that may have still been ahead started deflating.
HAM, BC and SSK found it in themselves to win. No real luck involved. We are the epitome of that find-the-win team this year. That's all we do. And we do it because everyone from top to bottom expects to.
We'll see how the boys respond after the bye. It will be a great, challenging, test.
Hey, how about going for it more on 3rd down. Did you see what BC did? Holy smokes. They started going 3 down even with 5 minutes left. Ya sure, they were down 2 scores at least for some of the gambles. But they put all their confidence in the O and it paid off.
That first 3rd down gamble mid-pass to Burnham basically won the game. It eviscerated CGY's morale. CGY didn't do squat after that on O, D (with only one lucky score on ST).
If I was MOS in our last game, I'm leaving the O out on 3rd and 5 or whatever in OT when we already knew Leggs' headspace was gone. Say to Zach and his weapons that we know they have this. Go out with a bang rather than a doink.
Campbell left his O out there and sent a message to the league: one that everyone heard. I think all CFL fans would agree right now that BC is hands down the best O, and maybe the best team. It's an unstoppable runaway train. Just our luck we get them 2 more times... those games will determine the West. We're the only ones that can shut them down.
Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on August 15, 2022, 01:46:10 AM
The Bombers don't win the 2021 G.C. without Castillo going 5/5. How happy are you with O'Shea now if he rolled into that game with Leggs having to match that output? Now imagine the dark future....
O'Shea can't do anything for Leggs except give him the time and opportunity to improve his worth, he throws his players off the dock and they either sink or swim, his entire mantra is based on self-initiative and accountability to team-mates. If you think he's down there coaching him up on the art of kicking, you're out-to-lunch.
Good kicker is huge in playoffs. Chance to win 3 consecutive Grey Cups is a generational opportunity. Leggs is our Achilles.
Quote from: pjrocksmb on August 14, 2022, 09:30:39 PM
Love it, seen that movie play out on the forum 3 years ago. 2 cups later, patience paid off.Exactly, off topic but one of our receivers are the backup kicker can't recall who, cjob had a story about this few games ago, anyone recall?
Having to use Ellingson might be something needed to do in game because of an injury. It doesn't fall into the category of a solution per se.
Quote from: Cool Spot on August 15, 2022, 02:15:17 AM
To be fair, we need to include 1-pt converts:
* Whyte is 14/16 on FGs, and 31/32 on 1-pt converts. That is 45/48 = 93.75%
* Leggs is 19/23 on FGs, and 20/24 on 1-pt converts. That is 39/47 = 82.98%
I'd say that ~10% is a pretty sizable difference; I haven't done the math but within a single game I'd estimate that works out to 2 or 3 points, on average.
If we look other kickers around the league, I've sorted them by overall successful kicking rate and included BC and Wpg:
* Seth Small (HAM) - 12/13 FGs, 9/9 1-pt converts. Total = 21/22 = 95.4%
* Rene Paredes (CGY) - 28/31 FGs, 21/21 1-pt converts. Total = 49/52 = 94.2%
* Sean Whyte (BC) - 14/16 FGs, 31/32 1-pt converts. Total = 45/48 = 93.75%
* David Cote (MTL) - 22/27 FGs, 17/17 1-pt converts. Total = 39/44 = 88.6%
* Lewis Ward (OTT) - 20/24 FGs, 9/10 1-pt converts. Total = 29/34 = 85.3%
* Boris Bede (TOR) - 21/26 FGs, 12/13 1-pt converts. Total = 33/39 = 84.6%
* Brett Lauther (SSK) - 24/28 FGs, 11/13 1-pt converts. Total = 35/42 = 83.3%
* Leggs (WPG) - 19/23 FGs, 20/24 on 1-pt converts. Total = 39/47 = 83.0%
* Sergio Castillo (EDM) - 21/26 FGs, 8/10 1-pt converts. Total = 29/36 = 80.6%
* Michael Domagala (HAM) - 12/16 FGs, 4/5 1-pt converts. Total = 16/21 = 76.2%
I think it's hard to look at these numbers and not have some concerns (if you combine HAM's two kickers, their combined success rate is 86.0% meaning that as a team, Wpg has the second-lowest kicking success rate in the league).
Source: https://www.cfl.ca/stats/?stat_category=field_goals&season=2022 (Date accessed: Aug 14, 2022)
Nice work on the stats check. There are so many questions in these sorts of raw fact though. The missed converts might be the most telling issue. FG's are a different story in that we'd have to access the distance of any miss by each kicker. Wind or weather might have been factors in some instances.
Is the trend improving or getting worse as the season progresses?
I only remember 2 of the missed converts early in the season. I have all the games on PVR but probably won't re-watch them again until the post season. I have re-watched each game once after live game time.
The 7 kickers above Liegghio have only missed on converts 5 times.
Cumulatively the Bombers have have played 10 games while other teams are cumulatively 12 games less. A couple teams have played 8 games and some only 9. Since we missed 2 FG's in game 10, that doesn't skew in our favour particularly well. It is still factual. Just wanted to point that out.
Quote from: Cool Spot on August 15, 2022, 02:15:17 AM
To be fair, we need to include 1-pt converts:
* Whyte is 14/16 on FGs, and 31/32 on 1-pt converts. That is 45/48 = 93.75%
* Leggs is 19/23 on FGs, and 20/24 on 1-pt converts. That is 39/47 = 82.98%
I'd say that ~10% is a pretty sizable difference; I haven't done the math but within a single game I'd estimate that works out to 2 or 3 points, on average.
If we look other kickers around the league, I've sorted them by overall successful kicking rate and included BC and Wpg:
* Seth Small (HAM) - 12/13 FGs, 9/9 1-pt converts. Total = 21/22 = 95.4%
* Rene Paredes (CGY) - 28/31 FGs, 21/21 1-pt converts. Total = 49/52 = 94.2%
* Sean Whyte (BC) - 14/16 FGs, 31/32 1-pt converts. Total = 45/48 = 93.75%
* David Cote (MTL) - 22/27 FGs, 17/17 1-pt converts. Total = 39/44 = 88.6%
* Lewis Ward (OTT) - 20/24 FGs, 9/10 1-pt converts. Total = 29/34 = 85.3%
* Boris Bede (TOR) - 21/26 FGs, 12/13 1-pt converts. Total = 33/39 = 84.6%
* Brett Lauther (SSK) - 24/28 FGs, 11/13 1-pt converts. Total = 35/42 = 83.3%
* Leggs (WPG) - 19/23 FGs, 20/24 on 1-pt converts. Total = 39/47 = 83.0%
* Sergio Castillo (EDM) - 21/26 FGs, 8/10 1-pt converts. Total = 29/36 = 80.6%
* Michael Domagala (HAM) - 12/16 FGs, 4/5 1-pt converts. Total = 16/21 = 76.2%
I think it's hard to look at these numbers and not have some concerns (if you combine HAM's two kickers, their combined success rate is 86.0% meaning that as a team, Wpg has the second-lowest kicking success rate in the league).
Source: https://www.cfl.ca/stats/?stat_category=field_goals&season=2022 (Date accessed: Aug 14, 2022)
Great job on the stats and comparisons and thank you.....yes we are near the bottom of the league in the s this stat category and it finally came back to bite us in the a$$ (posterior). Legghio has been punting the ball very well and that's been his saving grace. He makes that game winner from the 32 and he's near the top 5 and we aren't having this convo! Unfortunately he missed AGAIN in OT and his average really hit the skids and whatever goodwill he built up with Bomber fans during the season, was obliterated. And that's where the "what have you done for us lately" mentality is such a significant part of professional sports. It's often brutally unfair at times however that's the reality for kickers because when the game is riding on your toe....you're in the spotlight. Missing the second one, even if he hit the post, puts and exclamation point on season to date!
Again, don't want to harp on it, but Paul McCallum's rookie year he 40/57 including 0/1 in the WSH and 1/3 in the WF (overtime loss), inducing a manure incident. 73% in year one, and repeated that 73% in year 2... and since, he's been 80%+ every year, and over 90% sometimes...
Leggs has had one bad kick, and one unlucky post, which just happened to happen at inopportune times in a game where we were hoping to go 10-0. 9 of the 10 previous games he had been perfect in FGA's.
But yeah, time to airlift in a new kicker...
Yeesh.
It is so easy to attack a kicker... so many other factors happened in that game that should have made that last FG icing on a cake, not the deciding factor. DB's missing coverages, OL missing blocks, QB fumble, coverage lapses on returns. But lets crap on the sophomore kicker... who is doing all three duties as a Nat on an ELC.... if for nothing else, that should make him a favourite in Winnipeg, he's doing three jobs, cheap. ;)
Quote from: theaardvark on August 15, 2022, 07:36:32 PM
Again, don't want to harp on it, but Paul McCallum's rookie year he 40/57 including 0/1 in the WSH and 1/3 in the WF (overtime loss), inducing a manure incident. 73% in year one, and repeated that 73% in year 2... and since, he's been 80%+ every year, and over 90% sometimes...
Leggs has had one bad kick, and one unlucky post, which just happened to happen at inopportune times in a game where we were hoping to go 10-0. 9 of the 10 previous games he had been perfect in FGA's.
But yeah, time to airlift in a new kicker...
Yeesh.
It is so easy to attack a kicker... so many other factors happened in that game that should have made that last FG icing on a cake, not the deciding factor. DB's missing coverages, OL missing blocks, QB fumble, coverage lapses on returns. But lets crap on the sophomore kicker... who is doing all three duties as a Nat on an ELC.... if for nothing else, that should make him a favourite in Winnipeg, he's doing three jobs, cheap. ;)
No one is criticizing his punting or kickoff ability, he can keep that job. It is F.G.'s and converts he is struggling with because of the added mental pressure of altering the outcome of the entire game with one poorly executed kick. If you can't take the heat, don't sign up for that job.
Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on August 15, 2022, 07:47:08 PM
No one is criticizing his punting or kickoff ability, he can keep that job. It is F.G.'s and converts he is struggling with because of the added mental pressure of altering the outcome of the entire game with one poorly executed kick. If you can't take the heat, don't sign up for that job.
That's what we said to Rene Parades. Then Calgary signed him and worked with him.
Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on August 15, 2022, 07:47:08 PM
No one is criticizing his punting or kickoff ability, he can keep that job. It is F.G.'s and converts he is struggling with because of the added mental pressure of altering the outcome of the entire game with one poorly executed kick. If you can't take the heat, don't sign up for that job.
140 1 - N/A (00:33) Timeout Ottawa 17 16
141 2 7 O18 Rush (00:33) B. OLIVEIRA Run (1 yds), Tackle: D. COLEMAN 17 16
142 3 6 O17 Field Goal (00:27) M. LIEGGHIO Field Goal Attempt (25 yds), Good 17 19
143 - - W30 Kickoff (00:06) M. LIEGGHIO Kickoff (61 yds), Returned by T. WILLIAMS from O19 (13 yds), Special Teams Tackle: T. FORD 17 19
144 1 10 O32 Pass (00:01) J. MASOLI Completed Pass to J. ACKLIN, caught at O41 (29 yds, 20 YAC), Lateral to N. BEHAR (7 yds), N. BEHAR Fumble, Lost, Recovered by W. ROSE at W42 (0 yds), Tackle: S. JOHNSON 17 19
Hmmmm... first game of the season, :27 left, Liegghio makes a 25 yard FG to win the game... I guess it wasn't as hot that night...
I am sticking with the kid for now. Young players take a little time to grow and settle into there position. How many people where done with BO20 a few weeks ago?
Quote from: Sir Blue and Gold on August 15, 2022, 08:31:35 PM
That's what we said to Rene Parades. Then Calgary signed him and worked with him.
This. Or even Hajrullahu after his rocky sophomore season, who's also gone on to have a pretty solid career.
Liegghio had a rough night on Thursday but one lousy game doesn't justify kicking him to the curb (no pun intended). It's unfortunate he shanked the potential game winner but the fact the team was even in that position late in what should've been a convincing home win falls at the feet of more than one player.
I won't make excuses for his two misses but there's plenty of blame to go around for that loss, IMO.
Quote from: Sir Blue and Gold on August 15, 2022, 08:31:35 PM
That's what we said to Rene Parades. Then Calgary signed him and worked with him.
I went to training camp almost daily the year Parades was here and the fact is that he got beat out pretty cleanly by Palardy. You could see he had potential, too much to stick on the practice squad. So Calgary picked him up and it worked out but at the time NO ONE would have bet the farm on it. In fact, his first couple games were pretty shaky and he finished the year kicking 77.8 %
Just really tired of the Parades name coming up every time we miss one. But yes, your point of working with talent is correct Sir.
Quote from: theaardvark on August 15, 2022, 07:36:32 PM
Again, don't want to harp on it, but Paul McCallum's rookie year he 40/57 including 0/1 in the WSH and 1/3 in the WF (overtime loss), inducing a manure incident. 73% in year one, and repeated that 73% in year 2... and since, he's been 80%+ every year, and over 90% sometimes...
Leggs has had one bad kick, and one unlucky post, which just happened to happen at inopportune times in a game where we were hoping to go 10-0. 9 of the 10 previous games he had been perfect in FGA's.
But yeah, time to airlift in a new kicker...
Yeesh.
It is so easy to attack a kicker... so many other factors happened in that game that should have made that last FG icing on a cake, not the deciding factor. DB's missing coverages, OL missing blocks, QB fumble, coverage lapses on returns. But lets crap on the sophomore kicker... who is doing all three duties as a Nat on an ELC.... if for nothing else, that should make him a favourite in Winnipeg, he's doing three jobs, cheap. ;)
Yup let?s not airlift in a new kicker and risk key points in a close western final or grey cup. Maybe even another missed convert to lose by a single. Because hey, it will be great experience for Legg?s development. And that is the priority is it not?
Or let?s just put extra pressure on the offence to outscore the other team by enough to compensate for our developing kicker?s misses in a season we are a Grey Cup favorite.
Bottom line - we have a 3-peat Grey Cup team. Let?s not F it up developing a kicker into the playoffs.
Quote from: gordo on August 16, 2022, 08:37:26 AM
Yup let?s not airlift in a new kicker and risk key points in a close western final or grey cup. Maybe even another missed convert to lose by a single. Because hey, it will be great experience for Legg?s development. And that is the priority is it not?
Or let?s just put extra pressure on the offence to outscore the other team by enough to compensate for our developing kicker?s misses in a season we are a Grey Cup favorite.
Bottom line - we have a 3-peat Grey Cup team. Let?s not F it up developing a kicker into the playoffs.
How do you know a new kicker will be better until he plays in a multitude of games?
In 2021 we airlifted Crapigna and Mourtada. How did that work out?
Chances are any new kicker is going to be a rookie that may have looked good in college. That doesn't always translate into the pro leagues.
Quote from: gordo on August 16, 2022, 08:37:26 AM
Yup let?s not airlift in a new kicker and risk key points in a close western final or grey cup. Maybe even another missed convert to lose by a single. Because hey, it will be great experience for Legg?s development. And that is the priority is it not?
Or let?s just put extra pressure on the offence to outscore the other team by enough to compensate for our developing kicker?s misses in a season we are a Grey Cup favorite.
Bottom line - we have a 3-peat Grey Cup team. Let?s not F it up developing a kicker into the playoffs.
No one said to develop a kicker in the playoffs. Give the kid a few more games and see what shakes loose from the NFL. We also mite be able to make a trade with one of the bottom feeders in the CFL.
Quote from: Blue In BC on August 16, 2022, 01:25:59 PM
How do you know a new kicker will be better until he plays in a multitude of games?
In 2021 we airlifted Crapigna and Mourtada. How did that work out?
Chances are any new kicker is going to be a rookie that may have looked good in college. That doesn't always translate into the pro leagues.
I don't remember airlifting them in...they were brought in early as depth and competition when it was clear that Legs couldn't do the job.
We airlifted in Castillio and it worked out fantastic.
Quote from: Waffler on August 15, 2022, 10:02:22 PM
I went to training camp almost daily the year Parades was here and the fact is that he got beat out pretty cleanly by Palardy. You could see he had potential, too much to stick on the practice squad. So Calgary picked him up and it worked out but at the time NO ONE would have bet the farm on it. In fact, his first couple games were pretty shaky and he finished the year kicking 77.8 %
Just really tired of the Parades name coming up every time we miss one. But yes, your point of working with talent is correct Sir.
McCallum was run out of SSK after his sophomore year... BC got the benefit of that...
Not every kicker that gets run out of town turns it around. Maybe sometimes, the change of scenery is what does it for them, lets not make this another case of that happening. Leggs will be fine, and a part of the WFC for years to come, as long as we don't chase him out of town...
Quote from: Jesse on August 16, 2022, 02:42:00 PM
I don't remember airlifting them in...they were brought in early as depth and competition when it was clear that Legs couldn't do the job.
We airlifted in Castillio and it worked out fantastic.
What else are you going to call it when we used 4 different kickers in a shortened 14 game season? As somebody pointed out we traded to get Castillo and he played 3 games.
Regardless. The point was that any new kicker is likely going to be a rookie and unproven. Unless he gets into games you won't really know how he'll do under pressure. Import kickers struggle and take time to develop just the same as Canadian kickers.
How much time would you give Liegghio before replacing him? What do you do if the next kicker misses a couple of kicks?
Quote from: Blue In BC on August 16, 2022, 03:13:13 PM
What else are you going to call it when we used 4 different kickers in a shortened 14 game season? As somebody pointed out we traded to get Castillo and he played 3 games.
Regardless. The point was that any new kicker is likely going to be a rookie and unproven. Unless he gets into games you won't really know how he'll do under pressure. Import kickers struggle and take time to develop just the same as Canadian kickers.
How much time would you give Liegghio before replacing him? What do you do if the next kicker misses a couple of kicks?
Leggs was a raw rookie. Of course you want additional options just in case, and to compete / mentor.
Now he's all of one year older, with a season worth of football under his belt, and this season has been perfect in 8 of 10 games on FG's. With a LS that is not Chad Remple, and various holders. The most important factor for FG kickers is consistency. When you can't field a consistent battery, it affect things.
I still contend that the blame for the 0:00 FG miss goes to Benson. That snap was feildable, but wide and distracting. Should have put it through, Prukop did a great job recovering, but I understand the miss. And it is far from 100% on Leggs.
Quote from: Blue In BC on August 16, 2022, 03:13:13 PM
What else are you going to call it when we used 4 different kickers in a shortened 14 game season? As somebody pointed out we traded to get Castillo and he played 3 games.
Regardless. The point was that any new kicker is likely going to be a rookie and unproven. Unless he gets into games you won't really know how he'll do under pressure. Import kickers struggle and take time to develop just the same as Canadian kickers.
How much time would you give Liegghio before replacing him? What do you do if the next kicker misses a couple of kicks?
I would call it having a bunch of ***** kickers - hence the need to airlift a vet when he became available.
Anyone brought in this year would have to fit the same criteria - you are right that we are not bringing in an untested rookie - that would be silly.
I think the only real option is if Lirim decides he's ready to come back.
Quote from: Jesse on August 16, 2022, 03:26:01 PM
I would call it having a bunch of ***** kickers - hence the need to airlift a vet when he became available.
Anyone brought in this year would have to fit the same criteria - you are right that we are not bringing in an untested rookie - that would be silly.
I think the only real option is if Lirim decides he's ready to come back.
Lirim was winning the kicking battle at Dallas Cowboys training camp according to reports a week ago. He missed his only field goal attempt in their first pre-season game, but it was a 56-yard attempt in the pouring rain. Interestingly, he's competiting against another former CFLer, Brett Maher.
https://3downnation.com/2022/08/09/canadian-kicker-lirim-hajrullahu-winning-competition-for-dallas-cowboys-kicking-job/
Quote from: Jesse on August 16, 2022, 03:26:01 PM
I would call it having a bunch of ***** kickers - hence the need to airlift a vet when he became available.
Anyone brought in this year would have to fit the same criteria - you are right that we are not bringing in an untested rookie - that would be silly.
I think the only real option is if Lirim decides he's ready to come back.
Targeting a specific veteran that may or may not ever be returning to CFL is not an " airlift ". Neither is what some posters suggest in trading for someone like Ward or Castillo at the end of the season. In theory any player could eventually become available on trade although not in the short term loaner some have suggested.
Even if that changes, what is the team willing to give up in order to acquire a given player?
We lucked out getting Castillo last year because he didn't report to the Lions and was essentially excess to them. IIRC he earned $7500 per game. As it turns out it was worth it but there was no guarantee that would be the case.
Walters had an opportunity to make Castillo a new offer. He may have and Castillo may have declined. I'm under the impression that we didn't try to re-sign him.
As I've mentioned kickers are a very small pool of available talent at any time. Bombers brought about 27 DB's and that many receivers to TC. Did we have a 3rd kicker in TC?
If each NFL team has 4 in kicker in TC ( some may be kickers, punters or both ) that's about 130 in total. Each team probably keeps 2, possibly 3. That leaves 65 or less remaining of which most will be rookies and / or not place kickers.
Sure if Lirim comes available speak with his agent. I think he will continue to land a spot somewhere in the NFL if the Cowboys do release him. OTOH it is a function of the ratio with every Canadian player needing time to develop.
Castillo was 10 / 13 FG's and 5/6 for the Bombers in 4 games in 2015. Lirim was 40 / 46 also in 2015. I can't really remember all the circumstances why neither were back in 2016. A general impression was that we wanted a better kicker?
Round and round we go.
Quote from: Jesse on August 16, 2022, 03:26:01 PM
I would call it having a bunch of ***** kickers - hence the need to airlift a vet when he became available.
Anyone brought in this year would have to fit the same criteria - you are right that we are not bringing in an untested rookie - that would be silly.
I think the only real option is if Lirim decides he's ready to come back.
Considering he's currently the starter in Dallas, with only Maher behind him on the DC, not seeing him return any time soon... but who knows. Maybe a better kicker shakes loose elsewhere and Dallas makes a change. But its hard to think a team would go through TC with a guy pencilled in as a starter and no one competing, and not open game one with him starting.
https://www.espn.com/nfl/team/depth/_/name/dal/dallas-cowboys
Quote from: theaardvark on August 16, 2022, 03:03:45 PM
McCallum was run out of SSK after his sophomore year... BC got the benefit of that...
Not every kicker that gets run out of town turns it around. Maybe sometimes, the change of scenery is what does it for them, lets not make this another case of that happening. Leggs will be fine, and a part of the WFC for years to come, as long as we don't chase him out of town...
Paul McCallum was a rookie in 1993, not 2004 as it appears you,re suggesting.
By 2004, McCallum had been with:
BC Lions
Ottawa Rough Riders
BC Lions
Saskatchewan Roughriders
BC Lions (practice roster)
Saskatchewan Roughriders
Scottish Claymores (WLAF)
Saskatchewan Roughriders
Las Vegas Outlaws (XFL)
Saskatchewan Roughriders
Fun facts: Paul McCallum scored the first points (FG) in XFL1 history. He finished the season with "CFL Reject" on the back of his jersey.
Quote from: Stats Junkie on August 16, 2022, 04:07:10 PM
Paul McCallum was a rookie in 1993, not 2004 as it appears you,re suggesting.
By 2004, McCallum had been with:
BC Lions
Ottawa Rough Riders
BC Lions
Saskatchewan Roughriders
BC Lions (practice roster)
Saskatchewan Roughriders
Scottish Claymores (WLAF)
Saskatchewan Roughriders
Las Vegas Outlaws (XFL)
Saskatchewan Roughriders
Fun facts: Paul McCallum scored the first points (FG) in XFL1 history. He finished the season with "CFL Reject" on the back of his jersey.
Funny, the CFL database starts him in 2004... my bad... still, even more to the point... even veterans miss kicks and get run out of town and go on to become HOF'ers
If you guys got your way I guarentee in a few years we'll be posting about how we could trade for Leggs, as we move on from yet another kicker.
He did just fine before lastgame, he deserves more slack.
Quote from: NewBlue on August 16, 2022, 05:01:10 PM
If you guys got your way I guarentee in a few years we'll be posting about how we could trade for Leggs, as we move on from yet another kicker.
He did just fine before lastgame, he deserves more slack.
Totally agree. Always looking to throw someone under the bus. There are so many plays in a game. If ZC8 doesn't fumble, if our OL played better, if our OL doesn't take those IP's. If we didn't go offside on the goal line. We are 9-1, the bombers as a team will grow from this. Let's have a little faith in our coach and management. In the end they always seem to make the right moves.
Quote from: Pigskin on August 16, 2022, 07:03:38 PM
Totally agree. Always looking to throw someone under the bus. There are so many plays in a game. If ZC8 doesn't fumble, if our OL played better, if our OL didn't take those IP's. If we didn't go offside on the goal line. We are 9-1, the bombers as a team will grow from this. Let's have a little faith in our coach and management. In the end they always seem to make the right moves.
Thumbs up.
Quote from: theaardvark on August 16, 2022, 03:03:45 PM
McCallum was run out of SSK after his sophomore year... BC got the benefit of that...
Not every kicker that gets run out of town turns it around. Maybe sometimes, the change of scenery is what does it for them, lets not make this another case of that happening. Leggs will be fine, and a part of the WFC for years to come, as long as we don't chase him out of town...
Again, no one is looking to replace Leggs punting or kickoff duties, he's doing an exceptional job with both. His job is secure and he's not going anywhere unless he eventually asks for too much money. If he struggles again with the pressure kicking FG's or converts in game, he can step back and work on his craft during practice, and try to take on all 3 roles again next season. Proper development and psychic protection for a young player, covered.
Remember his first year he was supposed to learn under Medlock. That didn?t work out and he got thrown into it doing all three. He had misses vs Sask In the Labour Day classic, and then extra points in the banjo bowl. The fans went nuts, booing him on the field. This stress was the fans, let?s face it Winnipeg is not an easy place to play in, we have too much passion and high expectations. That?s a level of stress in itself.
He came back this year and has been great, his punting and kick offs are good FG are good. He is 25 years old, he has many years left in the league. He will be one of the kickers that we say we should not have let him go.
We should back him not stress him out further.
Leggio knew he was going to kick the first field goal clock was down under 1 minite. Then when they kicked iy there was 15 seconds on the clock they never Snapped it til the last second. They should have just kicked it not wait til clock winds diwn. I think he froze. Him and the centre and and the holder . they dhould have mourtado on stand by jusy in case they need him
Quote from: buckzumhoff on August 16, 2022, 10:15:43 PM
Leggio knew he was going to kick the first field goal clock was down under 1 minite. Then when they kicked iy there was 15 seconds on the clock they never Snapped it til the last second. They should have just kicked it not wait til clock winds diwn. I think he froze. Him and the centre and and the holder . they dhould have mourtado on stand by jusy in case they need him
Mourtada was consoling him after the first miss....either that or twisting the knife in deeper. ;D
Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on August 16, 2022, 10:34:17 PM
Mourtada was consoling him after the first miss....either that or twisting the knife in deeper. ;D
He's like, I know how you feel... A lot!
One bad game out of 10, I will give the kid some slack. Hopefully he learns from the experience and not go into meltdown next game. I think he will come back fine vs Calgary. Not a time to panic and run him out of town like several kickers before. IF he really starts stinking the joint out the next few games, THEN time to look at who is available including Mourtada or other NFL cuts or kickers just waiting around to be picked up by someone. Too many chicken littles on this board sometimes.
There are always a few lost kickers floating around, two Natls. that are unaccounted for as far as I know are, Rockin' Ronnie Pfeffer and former Bomber draft pick Felix Menard-Briere, probably moved on from football but may be available in a pinch. From what I recall Pfeffer was a good punter but an iffy F.G. kicker, and Briere had poor timing in his tryouts coming up against established kickers like Medlock but reports from TC were positive.
Last year, his first, his FG % was 62.5 %, and this year it's 82.6 %, which is about middle of the pack for CFL kickers.
https://www.cfl.ca/players/marc-liegghio/165764/
https://www.cfl.ca/stats/?stat_category=field_goals&season=2022
He's not far off Justin Medlock's career 86.5 % FG percentage.
https://www.cfl.ca/players/justin-medlock/149157/
Quote from: ichabod_crane on August 17, 2022, 05:53:27 AM
One bad game out of 10, I will give the kid some slack. Hopefully he learns from the experience and not go into meltdown next game. I think he will come back fine vs Calgary. Not a time to panic and run him out of town like several kickers before. IF he really starts stinking the joint out the next few games, THEN time to look at who is available including Mourtada or other NFL cuts or kickers just waiting around to be picked up by someone. Too many chicken littles on this board sometimes.
Agree 100%. He will learn from the pressure packed situation and move on. Guarantee MOS stays with him, he won?t bring anyone else in to shatter his confidence, he?s going with Legs all the way.
Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on August 17, 2022, 04:24:06 PM
There are always a few lost kickers floating around, two Natls. that are unaccounted for as far as I know are, Rockin' Ronnie Pfeffer and former Bomber draft pick Felix Menard-Briere, probably moved on from football but may be available in a pinch. From what I recall Pfeffer was a good punter but an iffy F.G. kicker, and Briere had poor timing in his tryouts coming up against established kickers like Medlock but reports from TC were positive.
Pass on both.
Quote from: Blue In BC on August 16, 2022, 03:49:55 PM
Castillo was 10 / 13 FG's and 5/6 for the Bombers in 4 games in 2015. Lirim was 40 / 46 also in 2015. I can't really remember all the circumstances why neither were back in 2016. A general impression was that we wanted a better kicker?
Lirim missed 5 kicks in 1 game (near the end of the season?) that cost him his job. I'll never forget the feeling each time we trotted him our for 1 more try... Kind of like trotting Leggs out on that OT kick. We lost that game because of it, too. When unseasoned kickers "lose it" during a game, they don't get "it" back. After the 3rd miss every FG try should have been a 3rd down gamble.
I still can't believe Lirim has been in the NFL so long while Medlock never even got a look... We lucked out on the NFL's stupidity.
Quote from: TecnoGenius on August 18, 2022, 03:57:53 AM
Lirim missed 5 kicks in 1 game (near the end of the season?) that cost him his job.
Oh ya, he did that 5 misses
AT IGF! The postgame on CJOB was lots of fun that night...
?Rate your confidence in Leggs?
In pressure situations my confidence is zero.
Quote from: northof30 on August 18, 2022, 04:17:54 AM
?Rate your confidence in Leggs?
In pressure situations my confidence is zero.
You miss the first game of the year?
He didn't
Quote from: TecnoGenius on August 18, 2022, 03:57:53 AM
I still can't believe Lirim has been in the NFL so long while Medlock never even got a look... We lucked out on the NFL's stupidity.
Justin Medlock spent 4 seasons chasing his NFL dream. He had a cup of coffee with KC in 2007 and he played 11 games with Carolina in 2012.
There was an interview Medlock did while he was with Hamilton. He stated that the biggest challenge he faced was that he was a left footed kicker.
Every where he went, the incumbent holder had only held for right footers. In most instances, he would be paired with a random player as his holder to avoid messing with the incumbent.
In 2012, Medlock was paired with a training camp arm who he developed a chemistry with, which led to him landing the kicking job. Unfortunately, his training camp holder was released and he had to break in a new holder during the regular season and they never developed the same chemistry.
In 2013, even though he was the "veteran", Medlock was once again paired with someone new to the job while the rookie kickers got the incumbent holder.
I think going to the Argos in 2009 was the best thing for his career. Toronto had Kevin Eiben as a holder and he was 1 year removed from holding for another lefty in Noel Prefontaine.
Once he established himself as a premier kicker in the CFL he was able to call the shots when selecting his holder. He went through 7 holders while with the Blue Bombers.
Lets just say of Medlock was still here and he was working with Benson and Prukop, they would be spending hours getting their timing down. As mentioned Medlock could pull that off being a seasoned vet, Im sure Leggs cant do that at this point. He takes what he can get.
Quote from: Tee42 on August 18, 2022, 06:58:25 PM
Lets just say of Medlock was still here and he was working with Benson and Prukop, they would be spending hours getting their timing down. As mentioned Medlock could pull that off being a seasoned vet, Im sure Leggs cant do that at this point. He takes what he can get.
I don't know why he can't. It's his job on the line. The other 2 are safe. The coaches should back him 100%, what ever he needs to be successful. And if he doesn't want to be a dick then the coach should do it for him. Still think they need a field goal specialist brought in as consultant. It would be well worth it if it fixed even one miss.
Quote from: Waffler on August 18, 2022, 09:30:50 PM
I don't know why he can't. It's his job on the line. The other 2 are safe. The coaches should back him 100%, what ever he needs to be successful. And if he doesn't want to be a dick then the coach should do it for him. Still think they need a field goal specialist brought in as consultant. It would be well worth it if it fixed even one miss.
Maybe a sports psychologist? As Westwood said a few days ago when asked about the 2 misses, kicking is 95% in the head. He also said it was inexcusable to make such poor contact with the ball on the first FG, but he could understand missing the target, 'cause that happens.
Start a new job, tell people that have been there for years that you don?t like the way things are done. How do you think that?s going to go over?
That?s why this kid has longevity. He?s got the skill, he just has to get comfortable with the two people he needs to work with, the snapper in the holder.
It will be interesting to see what happens after this year. Third year option contract. I think he will be fine for the rest of the season. Personally, I am glad this happened at this point in the season.
Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on August 18, 2022, 09:50:07 PM
Maybe a sports psychologist? As Westwood said a few days ago when asked about the 2 misses, kicking is 95% in the head. He also said it was inexcusable to make such poor contact with the ball on the first FG, but he could understand missing the target, 'cause that happens.
Maybe he should sit on the bench and rock back and forth with his hands on his head like Westwood did.
Quote from: Tee42 on August 19, 2022, 12:08:53 AM
Start a new job, tell people that have been there for years that you don?t like the way things are done. How do you think that?s going to go over?
But this is sports. In baseball for example if any pitcher in the bullpen feels they need some work the backup catcher has to catch him. In some cases they might not like it especially a wild thrower.
If need be the coaches need to tell them the kicker is the QB of the field goal, do what he says.
Never met him but Prokup comes across an arrogant sob to me.
Quote from: Sir Blue and Gold on August 19, 2022, 12:09:58 AM
Maybe he should sit on the bench and rock back and forth with his hands on his head like Westwood did.
That was kind of comical but I will say that Westwood came in by himself on a bye week and was still kicking. Saw that more than once while going past the old stadium.
Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on August 18, 2022, 09:50:07 PM
Maybe a sports psychologist? As Westwood said a few days ago when asked about the 2 misses, kicking is 95% in the head. He also said it was inexcusable to make such poor contact with the ball on the first FG, but he could understand missing the target, 'cause that happens.
Westwood wasn't perfect. He also made some bad kicks in career. It happens.
This thread still has Leggs?
Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on August 18, 2022, 09:50:07 PM
Maybe a sports psychologist? As Westwood said a few days ago when asked about the 2 misses, kicking is 95% in the head. He also said it was inexcusable to make such poor contact with the ball on the first FG, but he could understand missing the target, 'cause that happens.
Westwood knows all about a kicker who misses kicks!! What a weird duck he was.
So, Lewis Ward. Lets trade for him...
So, missed 2 of 3 tonight, 77.8% for the season
Leggs is 82.6%
Quote from: theaardvark on August 20, 2022, 05:11:12 AM
So, Lewis Ward. Lets trade for him...
So, missed 2 of 3 tonight, 77.8% for the season
Leggs is 82.6%
Ya, Ward is trending downwards the last 2 seasons. No doubt. Something in his head. Maybe he doesn't like being on a loser team for eternity?
But how about Castillo! 52 yarder again like it was nothing. But he missed a PAT... ugh.
Maybe we should just admit kicking sucks across the league this year. Even Parades screwing up at times.
Maybe CFL doesn't pay kickers enough. Sad that we (the whole CFL) couldn't get Medlock back after the hiatus. Maybe the league needs to incentivize paying kickers more, to get them up here and staying up here. Maybe SMS-free bonus money. Maybe somehow mitigate the disadvantage IMPs are in terms of wasting a DI? NAT K's are nice, but there aren't enough quality ones.
Medlock (and similar) would have stayed and played had the deal been $100k more than what was on the table.
The trend downward is odd to say the least. The hash marks were moved in which in theory should mean easier kicks. I grew up watching in a time when the field goal was far from automatic. Dave Cutler for example, a hall of famer if there ever was one, was 58.7% lifetime. Percentage has been going up steadily over time until this year. It has to be an anomaly.
Ward missing 2 was unusual for him. 2 singles instead of 2 FG's. It may have changed the momentum slightly but the Redblacks will never know. Not a very good team. Lapo could be on the hot seat if he doesn't win the re-match next week. I'd hate to see that happen but something has to change.
Broadcasters suggesting something big has to happen on their roster. Easy to say difficult to do.
Quote from: TecnoGenius on August 20, 2022, 07:54:19 AM
Ya, Ward is trending downwards the last 2 seasons. No doubt. Something in his head. Maybe he doesn't like being on a loser team for eternity?
But how about Castillo! 52 yarder again like it was nothing. But he missed a PAT... ugh.
Maybe we should just admit kicking sucks across the league this year. Even Parades screwing up at times.
Maybe CFL doesn't pay kickers enough. Sad that we (the whole CFL) couldn't get Medlock back after the hiatus. Maybe the league needs to incentivize paying kickers more, to get them up here and staying up here. Maybe SMS-free bonus money. Maybe somehow mitigate the disadvantage IMPs are in terms of wasting a DI? NAT K's are nice, but there aren't enough quality ones.
Medlock (and similar) would have stayed and played had the deal been $100k more than what was on the table.
Medlock is 38, dude. I'm pretty sure he was dealing with back problems and contemplated retirement for the last few years of his playing career.
Had nothing to do with money. Zero.
Quote from: Jesse on August 20, 2022, 03:02:54 PM
Medlock is 38, dude. I'm pretty sure he was dealing with back problems and contemplated retirement for the last few years of his playing career.
Had nothing to do with money. Zero.
Agree and to suggest that we spend even more an a kicker than what we paid Medlock is a stretch
Quote from: pjrocksmb on August 20, 2022, 03:37:30 PM
Agree and to suggest that we spend even more an a kicker than what we paid Medlock is a stretch
Techo's concept of creating some sort of exclusion in the SMS in order to pay any kicker ( or any position for that matter ) was bizarre in the 1st place.
Bottom line, we can't win the GC this year unless we have a kicker who can deliver under pressure. Do we have one now? Looks kind of iffy.
Quote from: guyinfla89 on August 20, 2022, 04:55:43 PM
Bottom line, we can't win the GC this year unless we have a kicker who can deliver under pressure. Do we have one now? Looks kind of iffy.
No way to know that with any certainty. Whether knowing if our kicker will be consistent on the day, or whether any number of FG's is relevant in that game is a TBD.
Quote from: guyinfla89 on August 20, 2022, 04:55:43 PM
Bottom line, we can't win the GC this year unless we have a kicker who can deliver under pressure. Do we have one now? Looks kind of iffy.
There?s no way we are winning the grey cup with the way this team has been playing. We don?t win a grey cup without an online, we don?t win a Grey cup without a quarterback, we don?t win a grey cup without special teams.
Quote from: Tee42 on August 20, 2022, 05:30:23 PM
There?s no way we are winning the grey cup with the way this team has been playing. We don?t win a grey cup without an online, we don?t win a Grey cup without a quarterback, we don?t win a grey cup without special teams.
He have a good OL that has had a shown some weakness this year
We have the best QB in the league
Other than a few missed kicks out ST are fine
9 and 1
Quote from: Jesse on August 20, 2022, 03:02:54 PM
Medlock is 38, dude. I'm pretty sure he was dealing with back problems and contemplated retirement for the last few years of his playing career.
Had nothing to do with money. Zero.
Oh, it's 100% to do with money. The only question is "how much?".
If you don't think Meddy would have flown back up for $100k more, then let's say $200k more. No? $300k more. There is some amount that would bring him up. He's human. And 38 is nothing compared to McCallum.
My idea to pay K's more ex-SMS is similar to my past one to pay NAT OL more ex-SMS. I'm basically looking at what is hurting the league the most and thinking of ways to retain the talent. In both cases (NAT OL and K) I feel the lack of higher pay is costing the league good talent to retirement. (Yes, NAT OL stars make bank, but the lesser C's and some guards don't.)
Quote from: Waffler on August 20, 2022, 01:51:38 PM
I grew up watching in a time when the field goal was far from automatic. Dave Cutler for example, a hall of famer if there ever was one, was 58.7% lifetime. Percentage has been going up steadily over time until this year. It has to be an anomaly.
I think the league-wide kicking problems started more in 2021 than 2022. It's just getting worse this year.
You are right that in the "olden days" kicking was even worse and 58% was acceptable. But they weren't as "specialist" as they are now. But kicking quality was very high for around a decade to about 2019. Might that have been the pinnacle in CFL?
I wonder if, absent some radical ideas, we aren't stuck with a downward trajectory in kicker quality for years to come.
Quote from: TecnoGenius on August 20, 2022, 08:16:15 PM
Oh, it's 100% to do with money. The only question is "how much?".
If you don't think Meddy would have flown back up for $100k more, then let's say $200k more. No? $300k more. There is some amount that would bring him up. He's human. And 38 is nothing compared to McCallum.
My idea to pay K's more ex-SMS is similar to my past one to pay NAT OL more ex-SMS. I'm basically looking at what is hurting the league the most and thinking of ways to retain the talent. In both cases (NAT OL and K) I feel the lack of higher pay is costing the league good talent to retirement. (Yes, NAT OL stars make bank, but the lesser C's and some guards don't.)
Imo Those figures are no realistic, wasn't going to happen, isn't going to happen
Quote from: TecnoGenius on August 20, 2022, 08:16:15 PM
Oh, it's 100% to do with money. The only question is "how much?".
If you don't think Meddy would have flown back up for $100k more, then let's say $200k more. No? $300k more. There is some amount that would bring him up. He's human. And 38 is nothing compared to McCallum.
My idea to pay K's more ex-SMS is similar to my past one to pay NAT OL more ex-SMS. I'm basically looking at what is hurting the league the most and thinking of ways to retain the talent. In both cases (NAT OL and K) I feel the lack of higher pay is costing the league good talent to retirement. (Yes, NAT OL stars make bank, but the lesser C's and some guards don't.)
Paying kickers more isn?t realistic and even if you did, there?s no guarantee they still don?t miss kicks, they all miss them, even pretty boy meelock missed his fair share. Every kicker in this league takes his turn at missing a clutch kick. Bede missed a PAT this year vs us and paredes missed the last play to win it kick vs us last year. Big deal. It happens, deal with it.
By your logic we should pay receivers more and they?d never drop a pass and Qb s more
And they?d complete all our their passes. Crazy crazy thinking
Quote from: dd on August 20, 2022, 11:26:44 PM
By your logic we should pay receivers more and they?d never drop a pass and Qb s more
And they?d complete all our their passes. Crazy crazy thinking
I'm not sure what people don't understand about the bell curve and the averages. Everyone knows the kicking averages have been down the last 2 seasons. All I'm doing is saying they are down because the average kicker quality is down. Anyone dispute this?
So I propose a solution: improve the average kicker quality in the CFL. How do we do that? I gave one idea. I don't know if it's the correct idea, but at least it's something.
There is no doubt whatsoever had Medlock stayed in the league (i.e. started in 2021) that he'd be better than 6 or 7 of the starting kickers. Therefore, he would raise the average. Apply that to a couple of more kickers and the average goes up even higher.
Ok, so follow the logic one more step. How could the CFL have retained Medlock? Money. How much? I don't know, but every healthy guy eyeing retirement has a "price" he would keep working for. Same in any job.
It's simple logical steps. I'm not saying do this, or that it will happen (in fact I pretty much guarantee it won't) but it is an idea that would possibly address the problem.
Or we just sit here with most kickers missing a PAT or sub-45 FG every other week, and then wonder why the Americans won't take the CFL seriously.
What's your solution? Or do we see even more missed PATs and 30 yarders league-wide next year? And the year after...
Quote from: TecnoGenius on August 21, 2022, 03:35:19 AM
I'm not sure what people don't understand about the bell curve and the averages. Everyone knows the kicking averages have been down the last 2 seasons. All I'm doing is saying they are down because the average kicker quality is down. Anyone dispute this?
So I propose a solution: improve the average kicker quality in the CFL. How do we do that? I gave one idea. I don't know if it's the correct idea, but at least it's something.
There is no doubt whatsoever had Medlock stayed in the league (i.e. started in 2021) that he'd be better than 6 or 7 of the starting kickers. Therefore, he would raise the average. Apply that to a couple of more kickers and the average goes up even higher.
Ok, so follow the logic one more step. How could the CFL have retained Medlock? Money. How much? I don't know, but every healthy guy eyeing retirement has a "price" he would keep working for. Same in any job.
It's simple logical steps. I'm not saying do this, or that it will happen (in fact I pretty much guarantee it won't) but it is an idea that would possibly address the problem.
Or we just sit here with most kickers missing a PAT or sub-45 FG every other week, and then wonder why the Americans won't take the CFL seriously.
What's your solution? Or do we see even more missed PATs and 30 yarders league-wide next year? And the year after...
Giant eye roll.
Quote from: TecnoGenius on August 21, 2022, 03:35:19 AM
I'm not sure what people don't understand about the bell curve and the averages. Everyone knows the kicking averages have been down the last 2 seasons. All I'm doing is saying they are down because the average kicker quality is down. Anyone dispute this?
So I propose a solution: improve the average kicker quality in the CFL. How do we do that? I gave one idea. I don't know if it's the correct idea, but at least it's something.
There is no doubt whatsoever had Medlock stayed in the league (i.e. started in 2021) that he'd be better than 6 or 7 of the starting kickers. Therefore, he would raise the average. Apply that to a couple of more kickers and the average goes up even higher.
Ok, so follow the logic one more step. How could the CFL have retained Medlock? Money. How much? I don't know, but every healthy guy eyeing retirement has a "price" he would keep working for. Same in any job.
It's simple logical steps. I'm not saying do this, or that it will happen (in fact I pretty much guarantee it won't) but it is an idea that would possibly address the problem.
Or we just sit here with most kickers missing a PAT or sub-45 FG every other week, and then wonder why the Americans won't take the CFL seriously.
What's your solution? Or do we see even more missed PATs and 30 yarders league-wide next year? And the year after...
I get your logic (your quoted poster clearly did not). It's interesting, although I think the argument can be reframed in a more general sense to "if we paid the players more money would we get better players?". Of course the answer is yes.
What I'm really wondering about however is the bolded. You've said something very similar on here before and got a fairly strong negative reaction shall we say. Do you recall that? And now you've said it again. Fair enough. So the question is, why is it so important to you what Americans think of the CFL? Now sure, I think everyone would agree that growth in the popularity of our game in the U.S would be a good thing, but this seems like a different issue. More like a validation thing or something. I'm not trying to pick on you or attack you, I have heard similar statements from others and am always a little taken aback when I hear them. Just would like to get your reaction. Am I off base with this? If you don't care to respond, fair enough, I will drop it no problem.
The field goal SHOULDN'T be automatic. The less the better as far as I am concerned. I want to see touchdowns. They have introduced rules to make it a riskier proposition like scrimmage at the point of the missed kick, wasn't always this way kids. NFL moved the goal posts to discourage field goals. They also talk about making the goal posts more narrow. So should we really be upset at a downward trend in averages?
Paying more for kickers is not the answer. It's traditionally a Canadian position for a reason. Some don't even consider them "real" football players. Comments by Doug Brown and Peyton Manning come to mind.
Quote from: TecnoGenius on August 21, 2022, 03:35:19 AM
I'm not sure what people don't understand about the bell curve and the averages. Everyone knows the kicking averages have been down the last 2 seasons. All I'm doing is saying they are down because the average kicker quality is down. Anyone dispute this?
So I propose a solution: improve the average kicker quality in the CFL. How do we do that? I gave one idea. I don't know if it's the correct idea, but at least it's something.
There is no doubt whatsoever had Medlock stayed in the league (i.e. started in 2021) that he'd be better than 6 or 7 of the starting kickers. Therefore, he would raise the average. Apply that to a couple of more kickers and the average goes up even higher.
Ok, so follow the logic one more step. How could the CFL have retained Medlock? Money. How much? I don't know, but every healthy guy eyeing retirement has a "price" he would keep working for. Same in any job.
It's simple logical steps. I'm not saying do this, or that it will happen (in fact I pretty much guarantee it won't) but it is an idea that would possibly address the problem.
Or we just sit here with most kickers missing a PAT or sub-45 FG every other week, and then wonder why the Americans won't take the CFL seriously.
What's your solution? Or do we see even more missed PATs and 30 yarders league-wide next year? And the year after...
I'm not sure why some people don't understand supply and demand.
Giant eye roll intended. :)
Quote from: TecnoGenius on August 21, 2022, 03:35:19 AM
I'm not sure what people don't understand about the bell curve and the averages. Everyone knows the kicking averages have been down the last 2 seasons. All I'm doing is saying they are down because the average kicker quality is down. Anyone dispute this?
YES!
2018 was the anomaly with Lewis Ward's freakishly good season
FG Con
2000 75.9 99.8
2001 71.7 100.0
2002 73.2 99.2
2003 76.1 99.0
2004 70.1 99.3
2005 71.0 99.3
2006 80.5 99.7
2007 72.7 99.7
2008 79.7 99.8
2009 81.4 99.1
2010 77.9 99.2
2011 82.2 100.0
2012 81.0 100.0
2013 80.2 98.9
2014 82.4 99.4
2015 81.9 85.4
2016 82.7 90.7
2017 84.0 89.9
2018 88.3 93.0
2019 84.3 93.4
2021 79.8 91.8
2022 84.2 92.7
Quote from: Stats Junkie on August 21, 2022, 05:51:58 PM
YES!
2018 was the anomaly with Lewis Ward's freakishly good season
FG Con
2000 75.9 99.8
2001 71.7 100.0
2002 73.2 99.2
2003 76.1 99.0
2004 70.1 99.3
2005 71.0 99.3
2006 80.5 99.7
2007 72.7 99.7
2008 79.7 99.8
2009 81.4 99.1
2010 77.9 99.2
2011 82.2 100.0
2012 81.0 100.0
2013 80.2 98.9
2014 82.4 99.4
2015 81.9 85.4
2016 82.7 90.7
2017 84.0 89.9
2018 88.3 93.0
2019 84.3 93.4
2021 79.8 91.8
2022 84.2 92.7
Lol. Pwned.
Do we have another kicker that we are bringing in yet?
Quote from: BLUEBOMBER on August 21, 2022, 11:39:46 PM
Do we have another kicker that we are bringing in yet?
Not that we know about. 2nd round of NFL cuts is tomorrow and our PR roster should be increasing by 5 shortly. Until then a new player on the PR means cutting someone, so it's less likely we see new adds at the moment.
EDIT: Looking at NFL roster transactions there have only been 3 K's released so far. It's always a small pool.
Quote from: BLUEBOMBER on August 21, 2022, 11:39:46 PM
Do we have another kicker that we are bringing in yet?
I have zero expectation of that.
Quote from: Blue In BC on August 22, 2022, 03:31:28 PM
Not that we know about. 2nd round of NFL cuts is tomorrow and our PR roster should be increasing by 5 shortly. Until then a new player on the PR means cutting someone, so it's less likely we see new adds at the moment.
EDIT: Looking at NFL roster transactions there have only been 3 K's released so far. It's always a small pool.
And each of those are one stubbed toe away from an NFL phone call... so probably won't be looking north.. yet
Hajrullahu and Maher both kicked FG's for Dallas on the weekend.
Quote from: bomb squad on August 21, 2022, 07:12:44 AM
You've said something very similar on here before and got a fairly strong negative reaction shall we say. Do you recall that? And now you've said it again. Fair enough. So the question is, why is it so important to you what Americans think of the CFL? Now sure, I think everyone would agree that growth in the popularity of our game in the U.S would be a good thing, but this seems like a different issue.
In this case I was trying hard not to say "it makes us look bush league", so I decided to pin it on the Americans. I actually thought it would be less offensive. It wasn't me who brought up "what the US thinks" in past threads, but I never disagreed with it. That's back in the years where we all were caring about growing the league and tapping the US market (which we seem to have forgotten). Not to please the Americans, but to ensure $$ and life for the CFL.
I don't really have a dog in this fight. Any US viewership we get is gravy: desirable but not critical.
As for my logic, thanks for reading and understanding what I'm saying. Yes, you really could apply it to "all players", but my point was we seem to have specific problems in the CFL lately. Namely QB, OL and now K. No one ever bemoans the leage-wide dearth of good DBs, WRs, LBs or STers. So that's why I mentioned K's specifically.
Quote from: Stats Junkie on August 21, 2022, 05:51:58 PM
YES!
FG Con
2017 84.0 89.9
2018 88.3 93.0
2019 84.3 93.4
2021 79.8 91.8
2022 84.2 92.7
I was talking specifically '21 and '22. I already acknowledged that as you go farther back, the K stats get worse. Look at just the last 5 years above. First, we must understand 2022 isn't over yet, we shall see if the 84/92 holds or not. But everyone can see the decline in 2021. That's the year people on this forum started noticing and complaining, especially because the worst kickers were on our team (until playoffs).
Anyone watching the CFL over the last 5 years would have noticed the extra misses on both FG and PAT, as evidenced in your stats. Anyone in WPG would have noticed even more.
The stats don't pwn me, they prove my point. If FGs stay around 84-88 and PATs 92-93 in 2022, then I guess the league doesn't have a problem. But if they keep declining to 2021 levels...
Another interesting stat might be # of FGs/PATs attempted. It just feels like 2022 is seeing less FG attemps. Maybe the 40 yard line changes are increasing TDs as intended? (And I suspect 2022 is a freak year so far for under-35YL FG misses.)
Maybe the overarching problem is we were spoiled with superb league-wide kicking from 2017-2019 and got used to it.
God, man. What are you even talking about?
You suggest that 2017-19 are the standard - 2022 is identical to those years. What's the problem?
2021 is one outlier year that occurred after a cancelled season and you're trying to suggest a decline when the numbers have already returned back to normal.
I don't see any 'trends' in the data, nor a decline in the kicking. Most kickers make 8 out of 10 FG, and 9 of 10 Converts. I don't see what all the fuss is about. Kickers miss kicks, always have, always will.
Quote from: Stats Junkie on August 21, 2022, 05:51:58 PM
YES!
2018 was the anomaly with Lewis Ward's freakishly good season
FG Con
2000 75.9 99.8
2001 71.7 100.0
2002 73.2 99.2
2003 76.1 99.0
2004 70.1 99.3
2005 71.0 99.3
2006 80.5 99.7
2007 72.7 99.7
2008 79.7 99.8
2009 81.4 99.1
2010 77.9 99.2
2011 82.2 100.0
2012 81.0 100.0
2013 80.2 98.9
2014 82.4 99.4
2015 81.9 85.4
2016 82.7 90.7
2017 84.0 89.9
2018 88.3 93.0
2019 84.3 93.4
2021 79.8 91.8
2022 84.2 92.7
ah whoops Tecno, lol
Quote from: Jesse on August 23, 2022, 01:11:13 AM
You suggest that 2017-19 are the standard - 2022 is identical to those years. What's the problem?
2021 is one outlier year that occurred after a cancelled season and you're trying to suggest a decline when the numbers have already returned back to normal.
As I said, 2022 isn't over yet. We're just over halfway through. Let's see how the final stats play out. Regardless of what the 2022 stats say, we've seen some "bad kicking" this year: misses from 15-30 yards. Especially ones at the end of games.
No one cares if you miss a 47 yarder on a semi-regular basis.
That is normal. What isn't normal is missing the 32 & under place kicks more than once in a long while.
If 2021 was indeed an outlier, and kickers stop missing from 30-ish yards, then of course that means there is no (long term) problem and we can all get back to moaning about QB quality or something else more important.
Quote from: Pigskin on August 22, 2022, 06:59:57 PM
Hajrullahu and Maher both kicked FG's for Dallas on the weekend.
Lirim just got waived
Yes, we have been talking about this all day in CFLers in the NFL. I don't know if he's done with the NFL just yet. I would also like to wait and see if Drew gets cut. Drew would be a big upgrade to our Canadian talent on our OL.
Thing with Lirim is his Canadian status and he punts. He has a strong leg. He has this next game to redeem himself and gain back his confidence. If he does this, I don't think we see MOS/Walters pull the trigger on a new kicker. All our games with the Stamps this year have been dog fights.....I expect the same and I wouldn't underestimate Maier at QB. He's had good success against us in the past.
Quote from: Lincoln Locomotive on August 24, 2022, 02:10:24 PM
Thing with Lirim is his Canadian status and he punts. He has a strong leg. He has this next game to redeem himself and gain back his confidence. If he does this, I don't think we see MOS/Walters pull the trigger on a new kicker. All our games with the Stamps this year have been dog fights.....I expect the same and I wouldn't underestimate Maier at QB. He's had good success against us in the past.
I doubt Liegghio has that short of a leash.
lol. Spell check.
Quote from: Blue In BC on August 24, 2022, 03:25:11 PM
I doubt Liegghio has that short of a lease.
I'd bet his lease is a year.. like most leases... his leash, on the other hand...
Ards?..leash or lease. Speak St.Vitalese! Lol!
Leggio is probably going to be good. Just not now. He will cost players,money
Trade for Castillo back
His contract has an option for the 3rd year. Maybe they trade him.
Not sure what is available in the draft next year.
On the post game show Taylor mentioned Leggs went 5 for 5 last night on his FG/XP combined.
Every single kick was from 32 yards out.
His miss on the last play in regulation vs. MTL? 32 yards out!
Quote from: Tee42 on August 24, 2022, 05:51:52 PM
His contract has an option for the 3rd year. Maybe they trade him.
Not sure what is available in the draft next year.
Defies logic. Even if he is a bad or worst kicker to ever play in the CFL, why would another team want to trade for him then? Who would then become our kicker?
Quote from: Blue In BC on August 26, 2022, 04:53:45 PM
Defies logic. Even if he is a bad or worst kicker to ever play in the CFL, why would another team want to trade for him then? Who would then become our kicker?
according to the posters here, there are tons of kickers out there. Maybe pick someone up from down south in the off season.
So, bounce back game, 5 for 5 on kicking attempts, decent punting/kickoffs.
I think we have our kicker.
Does all three jobs,at a decent price, as a NAT.
Sorry to those that want a change, but Leggs checks off all the boxes that make our team stronger and more versatile.
Yes, i think he had a very good game last night. Nice bounce back by a young kicker.
Quote from: Tee42 on August 26, 2022, 04:56:34 PM
according to the posters here, there are tons of kickers out there. Maybe pick someone up from down south in the off season.
The pool of kickers is always a small pool. Teams don't bring in 10 kickers for TC. Some kickers can only punt or kick off. I dispute there are ever " tons " of kickers out there.
Bring in someone to compete in TC. Sure because an injury is always possible and workloads in TC are high.
The point is that you don't just trade away someone you think is not good enough. If that's true nobody wants to trade for him regardless of position. You also don't do that if you haven't found an alternative.
That's what not logical in your comments.
Quote from: Blue In BC on August 26, 2022, 06:39:34 PM
The pool of kickers is always a small pool. Teams don't bring in 10 kickers for TC. Some kickers can only punt or kick off. I dispute there are ever " tons " of kickers out there.
Bring in someone to compete in TC. Sure because an injury is always possible and workloads in TC are high.
The point is that you don't just trade away someone you think is not good enough. If that's true nobody wants to trade for him regardless of position. You also don't do that if you haven't found an alternative.
That's what not logical in your comments.
I know my thoughts are not logical. the purpose of the post was to bring attention to the option year on his contract. There are a lot of people that would like to see Leggs gone, those are not the logical people.
He is very valuable when you see the ages of some of the veteran kickers. AND he does all 3 and he is Canadian and he is young. $$$$
I
He went for a 5 to an 8 out 10 for me. It IS what have you done for me lately business.
Yes, Leggs' star is rising after last night's performance. Not missing anything all night is a great accomplishment. No real testing distances, but I'm more interested in seeing consistency at the must-make ranges (under 35).
My beef with him wasn't missing a 37 2 weeks ago, it was missing the 32 plus the rouge.
We'll see how he continues to perform. I still think KW is eyeing a "playoff run kicker", I mean, why not? We shall see!!
Quote from: Tee42 on August 26, 2022, 10:00:32 PM
I know my thoughts are not logical. the purpose of the post was to bring attention to the option year on his contract. There are a lot of people that would like to see Leggs gone, those are not the logical people.
He is very valuable when you see the ages of some of the veteran kickers. AND he does all 3 and he is Canadian and he is young. $$$$
I
Every player gets assessed during the off season whether he's a free agent of not. Some vets will retire or get released due to age and SMS issues. A few of our players are quite old in terms of football.
Bombers aren't usually too active in trading away players. They might make a deal like the acquisition of Lawson for draft picks.
Regarding Liegghio, at the moment I fully expect he will be back in 2023. But anything can happen, including injury that makes him unavailable for the beginning of TC.
Leggs is good and will be great and I don't expect us to go after a replacement
Quote from: TecnoGenius on August 26, 2022, 10:48:22 PM
Yes, Leggs' star is rising after last night's performance. Not missing anything all night is a great accomplishment. No real testing distances, but I'm more interested in seeing consistency at the must-make ranges (under 35).
My beef with him wasn't missing a 37 2 weeks ago, it was missing the 32 plus the rouge.
We'll see how he continues to perform. I still think KW is eyeing a "playoff run kicker", I mean, why not? We shall see!!
That's just paranoia speaking.
Legghio was 5 for 5 last night and all from 32 yards out. He still needs to win a game or two for us with a walk off FG.....that's when the real pressure either makes you as a kicker....or breaks you. He did gain back some confidence with this last outing though....the big test is yet to come! I do feel he may overcome his demons
Can?t we Liegghio of this thread?
:P :P ::)
55 yarder with the game on the line in a stadium where you can't hear yourself think?
Splits the uprights...
OK, anyone want to change their answers now?
Legghio was pumped and rightfully so. That's how you become mentally tough. Bounce back after missing a big kick to have two solid games. The 55 yarder is obviously the best kick of his career so far.
I just saw this thread for the first time.
I voted "High."
The kid has come back strong from the shaky Montreal game. Was money today! Sask kicker choked on his long bomb. Difference in the game at the end.
Oh, and the juke on the for sure blocked punt, and still gets off a deep punt.
I think he's pretty safe as our kicker for the next decade or more...
Quote from: theaardvark on September 05, 2022, 01:22:48 AM
Oh, and the juke on the for sure blocked punt, and still gets off a deep punt.
I think he's pretty safe as our kicker for the next decade or more...
That was truly thinking on the fly on that play. Bombers seemed to gain momentum from that
There are a bunch of fans that should be embarrased right now.....
Wow. Leggs was a superstar today. He proved me wrong. I'm fine with rolling with Leggs, even if he pulls more MTLish games.
Sitting in the stands I thought it was a punt for sure, then I look down and see FG formation and I'm like ... uhhh... wha?
You know what else? At that moment the wind had mostly died. He made that distance without much wind help. And the almost-blocked punt recovery was one of the best I've seen.
Leggs was good today but it takes years to build confidence in a kicker. Keep it up Leggs and you will get the recognition. The field goals and the punt where he dodged the defender to make the kick shows he had really grown as a player a lot over the past year...
If you really know leggs, there is no doubt that he is a great athlete and kicker all around. The more you chirp him and question him the worse it is. I know it?s a mental game, but this guy can do it, I?ve been saying it since last year. You really need to let leggs be leggs and he will not let you down if you support him.
Quote from: theaardvark on September 05, 2022, 01:22:48 AM
Oh, and the juke on the for sure blocked punt, and still gets off a deep punt.
I think he's pretty safe as our kicker for the next decade or more...
That juke was great. He's looking good.
He had a great game today and his slate has been wiped clean. Hopefully he can stay on the right track and not provide further reason to doubt his ability to handle pressure.
How many games, how many saves, does it take for somebody to regain confidence in a kicker? Nobody is more critical on their players than us. I think we need to let it go, he is the guy. At this point any kicker in the league that played for us would be under the same microscope. It is what it is.
He's more than redeemed himself with not only the longest FG of his career.....in front of 33K psychopathic screaming Rider fans in the hallowed LDC no less plus. Add on his his combined kicking duties and that is also impressive! His sidestep move avoiding the punt block and his bouncing kick pinning them deep on their 20 was epic! He practices those bouncing kicks BTW!! That's a huge turn around play if it's blocked and we'd likely have lost the game.
Leggz is our guy and I hope he has silenced most of his harshest critics....we can always hope!? The fact that MOS continues giving Leggz the support and the opportunity to kick the winning FG in such an iconic game and against that psychopathic mob....says one thing. MOS will do exactly the same thing with the Western Final or the Grey Cup on the line. That's how much faith MOS has for Marc Legghio. I'll be putting my faith behind MOS's and if most of us did likewise, it would provide a lot of power and positive energy around our Canadian Kicker. He could well be another Noel Prefontaine in the making....oh yeah MOS played with and coached Noel and knows a little about special teams and players.....
Quote from: Tee42 on September 05, 2022, 03:34:24 AM
How many games, how many saves, does it take for somebody to regain confidence in a kicker? Nobody is more critical on their players than us. I think we need to let it go, he is the guy. At this point any kicker in the league that played for us would be under the same microscope. It is what it is.
I don?t disagree that he did a great job this game, but he?s had some extremely tough outs as well.
Are you a relative? You?ve been defending him rain or shine since he?s been on the team.
I glad the Bombers are giving him a chance to grow and improve. He had a great game.
Quote from: blue_or_die on September 05, 2022, 03:58:07 AM
I don?t disagree that he did a great job this game, but he?s had some extremely tough outs as well.
Are you a relative? You?ve been defending him rain or shine since he?s been on the team.
I am not a relative. I?ve been around teams he has played on and I know what he can do. It?s sad how harsh people can be. I will keep defending.
Quote from: Tee42 on September 05, 2022, 09:41:13 AM
I am not a relative. I?ve been around teams he has played on and I know what he can do. It?s sad how harsh people can be. I will keep defending.
So true....Winnipeg fans and some posters on this forum have it in for kickers and are a tough crowd to please. But then again, they didn't dump a load of pig manure on his driveway after he missed that game winner against the Als either!
I upgrade legs to a 10 out of 10. Nothing to see here.
outstanding!
Leggz lost us a game a couple of weeks ago and won us a game yesterday. Such is the life of a kicker.
Some players take longer to fully adjust to the pro game. It takes patience and opportunity to develop as we know from experience. Clearly the experts see a future for him.
Legs is growing into his role... hope he continues to improve.. we need a good kicking game if we are to three peat.. Now if only we can get Grant back healthy and if Oliviera can play with more intensity rather than play like it's touch football..
I have said it before and I'll say it again
A good kicker that will be great and patience pays off
I wonder if those fans that wanted him cut (haven't seen a single one of you own up yet) are now wanting to sign him to a 50 year deal?
It would be a similar over reaction.
There will be more misses, and more great kicks. Lets support him even in the downtimes, and maybe there'll be more goodtimes.
Quote from: BLUEBOMBER on September 05, 2022, 05:25:16 PM
Legs is growing into his role... hope he continues to improve.. we need a good kicking game if we are to three peat.. Now if only we can get Grant back healthy and if Oliviera can play with more intensity rather than play like it's touch football..
Yes, making that kick took a piano off his back as I can imagine the howling if he missed it and we lost the game.
Good for him though. He made a big, long kick in a pressure cooker of a game. This will help with his confidence as if he can kick a 50+ yarder in Regina in the LDC, all other kicks are down hill
Quote from: ModAdmin on September 05, 2022, 05:11:10 PM
Some players take longer to fully adjust to the pro game. It takes patience and opportunity to develop as we know from experience. Clearly the experts see a future for him.
True. Never thought that would be the place for a kicker. Like I have said for over a year, great numbers in college not sure what?s up. I guess he is adjusting.
Paredes and Castillo both missed some kicks today. I think Bede missed one yesterday?
Quote from: Blue In BC on September 06, 2022, 12:05:03 AM
Paredes and Castillo both missed some kicks today. I think Bede missed one yesterday?
09-05
13 HAM 2 3 66.7
I just read a great article on place kicking. Thought I'd share. It does point out the need for specialized coaching among other things.
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/08/31/magazine/justin-tucker-nfl-kicker.html
Quote from: NewBlue on September 05, 2022, 09:39:01 PM
I wonder if those fans that wanted him cut (haven't seen a single one of you own up yet) are now wanting to sign him to a 50 year deal?
It would be a similar over reaction.
I was one who was very hard on him for not getting that MTL FG/rouge, but I already posted my new support for him. However, I can't think of anyone who wanted him
cut: that's a strawman to deflect what we were saying, which is that we were going to need better for the playoffs. To be more precise: we wanted to keep Leggs to develop in-season and have a superstar money kicker helicoptered in for the playoffs (like '21).
I'm (now) fine with rolling with Leggs even into the playoffs. I think his LDC performance takes a lot of pressure off of KW to find a rental. Or maybe MOS was telling KW all along not to worry, Leggs would be good enough.
It's not that Leggs made a 55 yard FG: it's that he made his CFL career longest, in the hardest game in the season, in front of a sold out arch-enemy crowd, with no wind help, and nailed it down the middle with a few yards to spare.
Who would have ever guessed 3 weeks ago that Leggs would out-kick vet Lauther in a game?
Quote from: TecnoGenius on September 08, 2022, 04:38:33 AM
I was one who was very hard on him for not getting that MTL FG/rouge, but I already posted my new support for him. However, I can't think of anyone who wanted him cut: that's a strawman to deflect what we were saying, which is that we were going to need better for the playoffs. To be more precise: we wanted to keep Leggs to develop in-season and have a superstar money kicker helicoptered in for the playoffs (like '21).
I'm (now) fine with rolling with Leggs even into the playoffs. I think his LDC performance takes a lot of pressure off of KW to find a rental. Or maybe MOS was telling KW all along not to worry, Leggs would be good enough.
It's not that Leggs made a 55 yard FG: it's that he made his CFL career longest, in the hardest game in the season, in front of a sold out arch-enemy crowd, with no wind help, and nailed it down the middle with a few yards to spare.
Who would have ever guessed 3 weeks ago that Leggs would out-kick vet Lauther in a game?
Look at the poll. There were a few that had zero confidence and wanted to get a new kicker immediately. Technically that doesn't suggest cutting him, but replacing him almost amounts to that direction.
IIRC there were some really negative comments including trading him away.
https://www.winnipegfreepress.com/special/sports-editors-picks/2022/09/07/liegghios-heroics-no-surpirse-to-blue-and-gold-teammates
Quote from: Blue In BC on September 08, 2022, 01:36:35 PM
Look at the poll. There were a few that had zero confidence and wanted to get a new kicker immediately. Technically that doesn't suggest cutting him, but replacing him almost amounts to that direction.
IIRC there were some really negative comments including trading him away.
Yes even last week after a perfect game against Calgary, there were some still wanting to sit Leggs down. Now it all good. But how long. God forbid he misses a kick.
I agree, that is unfair for any player on any team.
Such unnecessary pressure.
The fact that he is Canadian and performs all 3 of the kicking duties is huge.....his directional punting has been very good this season and his little deke move to avoid being blocked or tackled and still cranking out a 49 yard punt came at a time when we were 10 points down. Instead of the Riders possibly scoring with great field position after the block...we had the Riders pinned at their 20 and really flipped the field on them. His 55 yard GAME WINNING FG was icing on the cake as he already punched one in from over 45 yards out and made all of his PATs.
He had a perfect game in the most hostile football environment possible and this bodes well for his overall confidence heading into the playoffs.....which are often closely contested games and often decided by a FG or less. So he deserves a great round of applause for his latest outing and the Bomber fans should collectively rally around him for the remainder of the season.
I rest my case....
Watched the game again the other day, and when the sure blocked punt play came up, I just giggled. It was so fun to watch him sidestep and then still get off a nice punt, I can imagine the face of the Rider as he went flying by...
P/FG/KO in a NAT? Yes, he is a keeper. Sign him long term... he's worth Medlock money any day of the week...
Quote from: Lincoln Locomotive on September 08, 2022, 03:29:47 PM
The fact that he is Canadian and performs all 3 of the kicking duties is huge.....his directional punting has been very good this season and his little deke move to avoid being blocked or tackled and still cranking out a 49 yard punt came at a time when we were 10 points down. Instead of the Riders possibly scoring with great field position after the block...we had the Riders pinned at their 20 and really flipped the field on them. His 55 yard GAME WINNING FG was icing on the cake as he already punched one in from over 45 yards out and made all of his PATs.
He had a perfect game in the most hostile football environment possible and this bodes well for his overall confidence heading into the playoffs.....which are often closely contested games and often decided by a FG or less. So he deserves a great round of applause for his latest outing and the Bomber fans should collectively rally around him for the remainder of the season.
I rest my case....
Very well said/written, Lincoln...
Quote from: theaardvark on September 08, 2022, 04:22:11 PM
Watched the game again the other day, and when the sure blocked punt play came up, I just giggled. It was so fun to watch him sidestep and then still get off a nice punt, I can imagine the face of the Rider as he went flying by...
P/FG/KO in a NAT? Yes, he is a keeper. Sign him long term... he's worth Medlock money any day of the week...
Not sure he's worth Medlock money yet. Let's give him some more time to grow, before we put that kind of pressure on him.
Leggs showed great poise and resilience in the Banjo Bowl after missing that first PAT. I thought he might lose it mentally again and be ruined the rest of the game, but he bounced back very quickly and made all the other attempts!
This is very promising for a developing kicker.
Quote from: TecnoGenius on September 13, 2022, 05:38:01 AM
Leggs showed great poise and resilience in the Banjo Bowl after missing that first PAT. I thought he might lose it mentally again and be ruined the rest of the game, but he bounced back very quickly and made all the other attempts!
This is very promising for a developing kicker.
I agree. He bounced back in a very positive manner following the Montreal loss and deserves our support. There is still a lingering element of inconsistency that seems to crop up at unexpected times such as shorter field goals or PAT's so hopefully that doesn't hurt us in the playoffs.
Quote from: northof30 on September 13, 2022, 07:09:41 PM
I agree. He bounced back in a very positive manner following the Montreal loss and deserves our support. There is still a lingering element of inconsistency that seems to crop up at unexpected times such as shorter field goals or PAT's so hopefully that doesn't hurt us in the playoffs.
Yep! It's hard to put your faith in a kicker, but Leggs is our guy and that's not changing for a while!
He's had a great overall season and I hope we have him for a long time!
This....
Leggz has a better FG success rate than Castillo and his punting average is almost 9 yards more as well! Add to this that Castillo, had we retained him, would be paid considerably more than Leggz and he's an import as well. Leggz by all accounts is having a better season than Castillo and because he's Canadian and performs ALL the kicking duties impacts the ratio in a significant manner. This, in only his second year whereas Castillo is in his 6th season!!
I'm very happy MOS has continued to have faith in him and I hope he stays a Bomber for a long time!
Quote from: Lincoln Locomotive on September 13, 2022, 07:33:44 PM
This....
Leggz has a better FG success rate than Castillo and his punting average is almost 9 yards more as well! Add to this that Castillo, had we retained him, would be paid considerably more than Leggz and he's an import as well. Leggz by all accounts is having a better season than Castillo and because he's Canadian and performs ALL the kicking duties impacts the ratio in a significant manner. This, in only his second year whereas Castillo is in his 6th season!!
I'm very happy MOS has continued to have faith in him and I hope he stays a Bomber for a long time!
agree all!
Leggs is good and will be great! He is our future! :)
The main thing for me is consistency and resiliency. I don't care if he misses 1 a game, even the odd important one. If he's a 75% (or 80 or 85) kicker, then so be it, so long as each game is close to that average (or above).
What I hope we can avoid is the Hajrullahu syndrome where he loses his cookies in one game and blows 5 kicks. That's the resiliency part: flushing the bad kicks and having a clean slate for the next one. That is what made Meddy so good: each kick had the same % chance close to his average regardless of what his last kick was.
Ya, Hajrullahu went on to do good things, but when we fired him he was a 68% kicker who had lost us a game with 5 botched kicks. It's entirely reasonable to fire a 68% kicker who is trending down (vs 87% rookie year).
Quote from: Lincoln Locomotive on September 13, 2022, 07:33:44 PM
This....
Leggz has a better FG success rate than Castillo and his punting average is almost 9 yards more as well! Add to this that Castillo, had we retained him, would be paid considerably more than Leggz and he's an import as well. Leggz by all accounts is having a better season than Castillo and because he's Canadian and performs ALL the kicking duties impacts the ratio in a significant manner. This, in only his second year whereas Castillo is in his 6th season!!
I'm very happy MOS has continued to have faith in him and I hope he stays a Bomber for a long time!
top notch post! I agree. How can you not!?
Quote from: TecnoGenius on September 13, 2022, 08:29:18 PM
The main thing for me is consistency and resiliency. I don't care if he misses 1 a game, even the odd important one. If he's a 75% (or 80 or 85) kicker, then so be it, so long as each game is close to that average (or above).
What I hope we can avoid is the Hajrullahu syndrome where he loses his cookies in one game and blows 5 kicks. That's the resiliency part: flushing the bad kicks and having a clean slate for the next one. That is what made Meddy so good: each kick had the same % chance close to his average regardless of what his last kick was.
Ya, Hajrullahu went on to do good things, but when we fired him he was a 68% kicker who had lost us a game with 5 botched kicks. It's entirely reasonable to fire a 68% kicker who is trending down (vs 87% rookie year).
He makes a back kick or two but bounces back