Blue Bombers Forum

The Extra Point => Blue Bomber & CFL Discussion Forum => Topic started by: TecnoGenius on April 08, 2022, 07:33:23 AM

Title: CFL - Full Time/Part Time
Post by: TecnoGenius on April 08, 2022, 07:33:23 AM
Quote from: theaardvark on April 07, 2022, 06:07:20 PM
Wonder if players are going to regret signing before the new CBA?  Or does the new CBA preempt current deals?

Ya, what's up with the CBA?  Isn't it getting down to crunch time?

I hope Solly creams the CFL this time.  It is still Solly there, right?  Players really get the shaft.  And I'm a "management" type guy, so this is really saying something.

As for Schoen: looks nice.  Maybe we'll be ok without Lawler/Adams after all.... maybe
Title: Re: CFL - Full Time/Part Time
Post by: Blue In BC on April 08, 2022, 03:35:23 PM
Quote from: TecnoGenius on April 08, 2022, 07:33:23 AM
Ya, what's up with the CBA?  Isn't it getting down to crunch time?

I hope Solly creams the CFL this time.  It is still Solly there, right?  Players really get the shaft.  And I'm a "management" type guy, so this is really saying something.

I think many people would love to earn $64K minimum for half a year of part time work.

Title: Re: CFL - Full Time/Part Time
Post by: theaardvark on April 08, 2022, 04:29:14 PM
Quote from: TecnoGenius on April 08, 2022, 07:33:23 AM
Ya, what's up with the CBA?  Isn't it getting down to crunch time?

I hope Solly creams the CFL this time.  It is still Solly there, right?  Players really get the shaft.  And I'm a "management" type guy, so this is really saying something.


Quote from: Blue In BC on April 08, 2022, 03:35:23 PM
I think many people would love to earn $64K minimum for half a year of part time work.



Comparing CFL to NFL, you can't.  Total different economies of scale.

Comparing CFL to any other football league, again, you really can't. 

Being stuck in the middle, $64k/yr is like $30/hr over the year, for 40hrs/week, 50 weeks a year.  Not many entry level jobs pay that, but most og these guys have degrees, so should have earning potential at or above that in $US without having to live in Canada...  so is it really that great? 

We see players who are more than capable of making rosters retiring to go to post football jobs every year.

So, really, from the CFLPA aspect, for NAT's, sure, $64k is pretty sweet, especially is you play at home.  For INT's, the main focus is showcasing for NFL opportunities, or playing for much more than $64k here. 

I'm not sure they really understand that, or can articulate that in negotiations.  To make the league more attractive to better players, the NFL avenue MUST be enhanced, not closed.  And to keep high calibre INT talent here after that window closes, we need senior man clauses, non-SMS veteran resigning bonuses, multi-year bonuses, 401k/pension bonuses, extended health care, etc.  $paychecks are the most visible aspect, but possibly the least important one long term.

The league will never give guaranteed contracts.  Players need to negotiate a larger "signing bonus" clause.  Its a close to a guaranteed contract as they can get. 

I do think the players need more, but not in $$$, but rather opportunity and support.


My win/win CBA?


Min 2 year entry deal at min salary with an NFL window starting after the GC and ending before the NAT draft.

Re-signing bonus allowed up to 10% of contract outside the SMS.  No limit to how many/how much can be used per year, per team. 

401k/pension match by league for approved deposits up to 15% of payments made on an annual, non accruing basis.

Health insurance while under CFL contract, and for a variable number of years after final game cheque based on total years/games played.

Educational bursaries, again based on total years/games played.

Cap stays where it is, or even drops 10% in concession for new benefits and in consideration of current economic situation.  Min salary matches cap (stays the same, or drops 10%).  Both to be evaluated annually should TV revenue / attendance increase.






Title: Re: CFL - Full Time/Part Time
Post by: Blue In BC on April 08, 2022, 04:53:23 PM
Quote from: theaardvark on April 08, 2022, 04:29:14 PM
Comparing CFL to NFL, you can't.  Total different economies of scale.

Comparing CFL to any other football league, again, you really can't. 

Being stuck in the middle, $64k/yr is like $30/hr over the year, for 40hrs/week, 50 weeks a year.  Not many entry level jobs pay that, but most og these guys have degrees, so should have earning potential at or above that in $US without having to live in Canada...  so is it really that great? 

We see players who are more than capable of making rosters retiring to go to post football jobs every year.

So, really, from the CFLPA aspect, for NAT's, sure, $64k is pretty sweet, especially is you play at home.  For INT's, the main focus is showcasing for NFL opportunities, or playing for much more than $64k here. 

I'm not sure they really understand that, or can articulate that in negotiations.  To make the league more attractive to better players, the NFL avenue MUST be enhanced, not closed.  And to keep high calibre INT talent here after that window closes, we need senior man clauses, non-SMS veteran resigning bonuses, multi-year bonuses, 401k/pension bonuses, extended health care, etc.  $paychecks are the most visible aspect, but possibly the least important one long term.

The league will never give guaranteed contracts.  Players need to negotiate a larger "signing bonus" clause.  Its a close to a guaranteed contract as they can get. 

I do think the players need more, but not in $$$, but rather opportunity and support.


My win/win CBA?


Min 2 year entry deal at min salary with an NFL window starting after the GC and ending before the NAT draft.

Re-signing bonus allowed up to 10% of contract outside the SMS.  No limit to how many/how much can be used per year, per team. 

401k/pension match by league for approved deposits up to 15% of payments made on an annual, non accruing basis.

Health insurance while under CFL contract, and for a variable number of years after final game cheque based on total years/games played.

Educational bursaries, again based on total years/games played.

Cap stays where it is, or even drops 10% in concession for new benefits and in consideration of current economic situation.  Min salary matches cap (stays the same, or drops 10%).  Both to be evaluated annually should TV revenue / attendance increase.








The 1st point is that CFL football is NOT a full time job even during the season. It's money for 6 months work. Nobody is twisting the arms of players to play football.

The 2nd point is that these ideas like many of yours are just out to lunch. Trying to find ways outside / circumvent the SMS?  Nutso. The SMS is only part of the equation, there is also profit and loss and not every team is able to increase costs both inside and outside of the SMS.

Title: Re: CFL - Full Time/Part Time
Post by: Sir Blue and Gold on April 08, 2022, 05:32:55 PM
Quote from: Blue In BC on April 08, 2022, 04:53:23 PM
The 1st point is that CFL football is NOT a full time job even during the season. It's money for 6 months work. Nobody is twisting the arms of players to play football.

The 2nd point is that these ideas like many of yours are just out to lunch. Trying to find ways outside / circumvent the SMS?  Nutso. The SMS is only part of the equation, there is also profit and loss and not every team is able to increase costs both inside and outside of the SMS.



Ask Andrew Harris is playing in the CFL is a 6 month job. He would have been much more effective last season and would still be a Bomber today if it was. Agree with you on the other points though.
Title: Re: CFL - Full Time/Part Time
Post by: Blue In BC on April 08, 2022, 05:44:28 PM
Quote from: Sir Blue and Gold on April 08, 2022, 05:32:55 PM
Ask Andrew Harris is playing in the CFL is a 6 month job. He would have been much more effective last season and would still be a Bomber today if it was. Agree with you on the other points though.

Athletes train all year round. It doesn't prevent them from finding additional work during the season or between the start of the next season. He also wasn't being paid an ELC wage.
Title: Re: CFL - Full Time/Part Time
Post by: Jesse on April 08, 2022, 06:21:32 PM
Quote from: Blue In BC on April 08, 2022, 05:44:28 PM
Athletes train all year round. It doesn't prevent them from finding additional work during the season or between the start of the next season. He also wasn't being paid an ELC wage.

lol at expecting players to find work during the season.
Title: Re: CFL - Full Time/Part Time
Post by: Pigskin on April 08, 2022, 06:41:39 PM
There are a number of Bombers work in the off season or go back to school. Some even work at there careers during the season.
Title: Re: CFL - Full Time/Part Time
Post by: Blue In BC on April 08, 2022, 06:42:00 PM
Quote from: Jesse on April 08, 2022, 06:21:32 PM
lol at expecting players to find work during the season.

Lots of them do. Some work in real estate, some work in finance for example. Some older players open business's like restaurants. It's easier for the Canadians perhaps but it's nevertheless true. It's absurd to think they don't or can't. You think the players on the PR are just sitting on their hands in their free time?

Not every non football job is full time time requirement either.  

Title: Re: CFL - Full Time/Part Time
Post by: Jesse on April 08, 2022, 06:46:03 PM
Quote from: Pigskin on April 08, 2022, 06:41:39 PM
There are a number of Bombers work in the off season or go back to school. Some even work at there careers during the season.

Of course they need to work in the off-season. Most salaries don't support the year round training that's required.

But pretending that football is a part-time job (during the season) is ridiculous. Just because some guys are forced to do it doesn't mean it should be this expected outcome.
Title: Re: CFL - Full Time/Part Time
Post by: Pigskin on April 08, 2022, 06:47:09 PM
Quote from: Blue In BC on April 08, 2022, 06:42:00 PM
Lots of them do. Some work in real estate, some work in finance for example. Some older players open business's like restaurants. It's easier for the Canadians perhaps but it's nevertheless true.

Not every non football job is full time time requirement either.  



JA27 real estate and trainer. AB4 Finance, AH33 property management, GG68 engineer, DW82 entertainer, BO20 animal rescue.
Title: Re: CFL - Full Time/Part Time
Post by: theaardvark on April 08, 2022, 08:11:22 PM
Quote from: Blue In BC on April 08, 2022, 04:53:23 PM
The 1st point is that CFL football is NOT a full time job even during the season. It's money for 6 months work. Nobody is twisting the arms of players to play football.

The 2nd point is that these ideas like many of yours are just out to lunch. Trying to find ways outside / circumvent the SMS?  Nutso. The SMS is only part of the equation, there is also profit and loss and not every team is able to increase costs both inside and outside of the SMS.

Its not a full time job, but it does require full time dedication if you want to stay employed.  Look at AH33 last off season.  He didn't work at football full time, and showed up to camp unready to compete.  So, no, its not full time and no one is twisting anyone's arm to do it.  But to do it right, you have to want to do it, and work year round, especially as you age...

I'm not trying to circumvent the SMS... but rather enhance it.  All "SMS circumvention" would be capped.  And I guess you missed my point of actually reducing the SMS, which would compensate for the potential to increase it by a maximum of 10% to re-sign veteran players....
Title: Re: CFL - Full Time/Part Time
Post by: Blue In BC on April 08, 2022, 08:34:05 PM
Quote from: theaardvark on April 08, 2022, 08:11:22 PM
Its not a full time job, but it does require full time dedication if you want to stay employed.  Look at AH33 last off season.  He didn't work at football full time, and showed up to camp unready to compete.  So, no, its not full time and no one is twisting anyone's arm to do it.  But to do it right, you have to want to do it, and work year round, especially as you age...

I'm not trying to circumvent the SMS... but rather enhance it.  All "SMS circumvention" would be capped.  And I guess you missed my point of actually reducing the SMS, which would compensate for the potential to increase it by a maximum of 10% to re-sign veteran players....

No you tried to circumvent ( enhance ) the SMS on one hand and decrease it on the other. 1 year contracts with 10% re-signing bonus's? Just look at the 1 year deals for Hardrick, Bryant, Bighill, Jeffcoat and Jefferson a nearly $200K each on average. That's $1M and 10% re-signing bonus excluded from SMS would be $100K for just those 5 players. Collaros @$550K would mean a re-signing bonus of $55K

That's not an enhancement and it would vary from team to team depending on how many high paid veterans were involved. It changes the equal playing field the SMS is intended to create.  You can argue all you want whether the league can afford to raise the SMS. That's a different issue but whether it's raised or whether the ELC level increases doesn't change players looking to build their off field activities to earn income.

Even if you cap the enhancement, it still creates potentially an uneven use between teams which again is the opposite of the SMS intent.

Title: Re: CFL - Full Time/Part Time
Post by: Blue In BC on April 08, 2022, 08:35:48 PM
Quote from: Jesse on April 08, 2022, 06:46:03 PM
Of course they need to work in the off-season. Most salaries don't support the year round training that's required.

But pretending that football is a part-time job (during the season) is ridiculous. Just because some guys are forced to do it doesn't mean it should be this expected outcome.

They aren't forced to do it, it's part of their career development aside from football. Some players listed as examples started these other business opportunities as 2nd year players.


Football is not a full time / all consuming situation during the season. As we seen during covid, " work " of all sorts can be done on computer remotely at non traditional times of the day.  You don't need to report to an office 9:00 - 5:00 to be doing other things.

Look at the list Pigskin provide. Are you going to tell me those players aren't dedicated players because they have off football interests?

Even NFL players start non football things early in their careers and have activities to invest their big money.



Title: Re: CFL - Full Time/Part Time
Post by: theaardvark on April 08, 2022, 08:47:59 PM
Quote from: Blue In BC on April 08, 2022, 08:34:05 PM
No you tried to circumvent ( enhance ) the SMS on one hand and decrease it on the other. 1 year contracts with 10% re-signing bonus's? Just look at the 1 yer deals for Hardrick, Bryant, Bighill, Jeffcoat and Jefferson a nearly $200K each on average. That's $1M and 10% re-signing bonus excluded from SMS would be $100K for just those 5 players. Collaros @$550K would mean a re-signing bonus of $55K

That's not an enhancement and it would vary from team to team depending on how many high paid veterans were involved. It changes the equal playing field the SMS is intended to create.

Even if you cap the enhancement, it still creates potentially an uneven use between teams which again is the opposite of the SMS intent.

Just like every rule, it is meant to be utilized and will be by every team.  You spend to the cap.  10% re-signing bonus for vets, if every contract included it, would mean maybe 6% increase in cap.  Maybe.  Probably less, maybe 200k.  Which you are allowed to exceed the cap by already, if you want.  And some teams have found other ways to circumvent the cap and sign star players for suspiciously low contracts...

The key here is retention of players.  Like the NHL and extending max term for re-signing, or the max contract in the NBA only being allowed for players signing with their current teams , it would be an advantage for a team to re-sign its players.  Because contracts are not guaranteed, the NHL and NBA clauses would not work.  So, you need another way to do it.  By giving teams a "slush fund" outside the cap that they can use *if they want/need to* to retain players, you create more continuity. 

The actual budget, especially if the cap is adjusted down, would be the same... just you'd be allowed to spend more on your own players.
Title: Re: CFL - Full Time/Part Time
Post by: TecnoGenius on April 09, 2022, 12:38:30 AM
I was more thinking 2 things:

1. Multi-year contracts should be reciprocal: if the team can hold the player to it, the player should be able to hold the team to it.  (Or they can both agree to terms to cancel it.)  If the teams are scared of reduced production, put more of the contract into incentives.

2. Every year the CFL loses players to retirement before their time, and I bet a ton of them would stay if they earned a lot more $$.  Medlock & Goose come to mind.  This especially hurts with talented NATs.  And we're getting awful at attracting talent at QB and kicker from the USA (and probably other positions).  More money for players would help that.
Title: Re: CFL - Full Time/Part Time
Post by: Blue In BC on April 09, 2022, 01:57:51 PM
Quote from: theaardvark on April 08, 2022, 08:47:59 PM
Just like every rule, it is meant to be utilized and will be by every team.  You spend to the cap.  10% re-signing bonus for vets, if every contract included it, would mean maybe 6% increase in cap.  Maybe.  Probably less, maybe 200k.  Which you are allowed to exceed the cap by already, if you want.  And some teams have found other ways to circumvent the cap and sign star players for suspiciously low contracts...

The key here is retention of players.  Like the NHL and extending max term for re-signing, or the max contract in the NBA only being allowed for players signing with their current teams , it would be an advantage for a team to re-sign its players.  Because contracts are not guaranteed, the NHL and NBA clauses would not work.  So, you need another way to do it.  By giving teams a "slush fund" outside the cap that they can use *if they want/need to* to retain players, you create more continuity. 

The actual budget, especially if the cap is adjusted down, would be the same... just you'd be allowed to spend more on your own players.

You can do that already in the SMS. I'm not suggesting we should have re-signed A. Harris and released one or both of Oliveria and Augustine, but that was a choice teams have.

Shifting some SMS into exempt bonus money is just another way of raising the SMS. Even though you are suggesting reducing the regular SMS to offset there is zero to gain.

Retention of players is a great idea.  Feel free to explain how any of this would have helped retain Lawler as an example The number of highly paid veterans varies season to season and team to team. Succession planning comes into play. Money is not the only factor why players move to other teams.

When players start earning $700K ( Reilly ) or Lawler ( $300K ) it means something has to give. If you're suggesting the actual total would be nearly the same then it's just playing games and slight of hand. There is a reason for a hard cap and penalties for going over.

This is true in the NFL as well. I just read that the Chiefs decided to not re-new the contact of Matthews ( previously about $40M for 3 years ).

I'd support raising the SMS and the ELC level if the league can afford it. I don't believe they can or will in the near future.  Regardless of the $$'s in the SMS teams will always need to adjust how they spend their money to put together a roster.

Every time a player does well after his 1st ELC there is a chance of wanting a significant larger contract. That's why players move in free agency.
Title: Re: CFL - Full Time/Part Time
Post by: Blue In BC on April 09, 2022, 02:15:16 PM
Quote from: TecnoGenius on April 09, 2022, 12:38:30 AM
I was more thinking 2 things:

1. Multi-year contracts should be reciprocal: if the team can hold the player to it, the player should be able to hold the team to it.  (Or they can both agree to terms to cancel it.)  If the teams are scared of reduced production, put more of the contract into incentives.

2. Every year the CFL loses players to retirement before their time, and I bet a ton of them would stay if they earned a lot more $$.  Medlock & Goose come to mind.  This especially hurts with talented NATs.  And we're getting awful at attracting talent at QB and kicker from the USA (and probably other positions).  More money for players would help that.


The CFL isn't going to compete with the NFL to attract QB's or any player for that matter that gets NFL interest. Alford and Kongbo this year.

Free agency 2022 was not quite the norm due to losing the 2021 season. However we had to re-sign 23 players potential free agents.

Mike Jones became a starter in 2019 and played 7 games. He played all 14 in 2021 but was bumped to back up when Rose returned. Technically Jones extended his 2 year deal for 2021 after 2020 was cancelled. He may have gotten a bump from his ELC.

That said he's getting $106K from the Als. I'm not suggesting he isn't worth it but that's not an untypical example of players doing well and moving up the SMS ladder into contract # 2.  Bailey, Oliveria, Augustine to name a few got $30K or more bumps for their 2nd contact 3rd season.

No matter how large the SMS reaches, decisions will have to be made to construct any teams roster. You simply can't keep everybody you want.

Title: Re: CFL - Full Time/Part Time
Post by: The Zipp on April 10, 2022, 05:23:21 PM
It's a full time commitment for 6-7 months of the year.

  Does it provide a liveable wage for 12 months?  Depends on your living & family situation and your salary - for some it might be and for others it isn't.
Title: Re: CFL - Full Time/Part Time
Post by: theaardvark on April 10, 2022, 08:53:09 PM
Quote from: The Zipp on April 10, 2022, 05:23:21 PM
It's a full time commitment for 6-7 months of the year.

  Does it provide a liveable wage for 12 months?  Depends on your living & family situation and your salary - for some it might be and for others it isn't.

Considering the min CFL salary is more than double the annual minimum wage... should be liveable.
Title: Re: CFL - Full Time/Part Time
Post by: Blue In BC on April 10, 2022, 09:04:54 PM
Quote from: theaardvark on April 10, 2022, 08:53:09 PM
Considering the min CFL salary is more than double the annual minimum wage... should be liveable.

It's a discussion whether some players will generate some income during the season. It's not really a discussion to think players will add to their income during the off season. These are mostly 21 - 28 year old 1st year players we're considering on ELC's

I don't for a minute think they are being hard done by as a few posters suggested. Compared to the NFL money, sure but nobody is making players play if they feel hard done by.

If we can raise the SMS and / or the ELC levels, by all means I wouldn't disagree to have that happen.