Blue Bombers Forum

The Extra Point => Blue Bomber & CFL Discussion Forum => Topic started by: Lake Winnipeg on March 19, 2022, 04:14:21 AM

Title: CFL contemplating 4 major changes to CFL '22
Post by: Lake Winnipeg on March 19, 2022, 04:14:21 AM

1. Moving Hash-Marks to align the field goal posts.

2. Changing the field to 100 yards. And it looks like this is going to happen which is like 7 yrs too late after building new stadiums its going to make end zone seats harder to sell and less enjoyable even though being that far away from the other end zone sucks, its goin got be kind of worse cause the end zone on your side will now by further away. Unless they move the entire field closer to 1 side.


3. 3 Downs looks like its staying but there is a new rule possibility that you cant punt once passed mid-field

4. clock rule changes. Clock will stop on incomplete pass and not start until snap. Clock stops on first downs and run out of bounds but will start once play clock starts. a run or pass competed before first down clock runs continuously. This will save clock with more possessions made available overall in a game.

Title: Re: CFL contemplating 4 major changes to CFL '22
Post by: Stretch on March 19, 2022, 12:16:04 PM
Source?
Title: Re: CFL contemplating 4 major changes to CFL '22
Post by: Jesse on March 19, 2022, 01:18:35 PM
Quote from: Stretch on March 19, 2022, 12:16:04 PM
Source?

A combination of Ambrosie interviews, speculations concerning those interviews, and made up BS.

I do expect  the hash marks to be moved closer together though. Everyone seems up for it.
Title: Re: CFL contemplating 4 major changes to CFL '22
Post by: TBURGESS on March 19, 2022, 01:59:15 PM
I don't mind the hash mark rule. The rest suck.
Title: Re: CFL contemplating 4 major changes to CFL '22
Post by: theaardvark on March 19, 2022, 05:07:53 PM
Quote from: TBURGESS on March 19, 2022, 01:59:15 PM
I don't mind the hash mark rule. The rest suck.

+1
Title: Re: CFL contemplating 4 major changes to CFL '22
Post by: Blue In BC on March 19, 2022, 05:09:59 PM
1. Don't see the point really.  Currently 24' from each sideline and field is 65' wide.. Goal posts are 18'6" wide.
2. Don't like this idea at all.
3. Would just mean teams would " punt " from FG alignment. A missed FG is another version of a punt if you aren't really trying to make the FG. LOS from the 54 ( for example ) yard line means a nearly 100% chance of not making the FG and would result in not reaching the end zone.
4. Not the worst idea.
Title: Re: CFL contemplating 4 major changes to CFL '22
Post by: Waffler on March 19, 2022, 10:06:59 PM
I don't like any of the ideas.  There will be more field goals if they move the hash. Too many already in my opinion, just rewards mediocrity.

Same thing with shorter field, promotes field goals.

Not punting is ok but already pointed out that it is easy to get around by kicking ball deep out of bounds.

More plays means more injuries too, 18 games is already long. Not many QB's survive it. Will possibly need to increase the roster to provide more rotational players so ends up costing money no one has.
Title: Re: CFL contemplating 4 major changes to CFL '22
Post by: BLUEBOMBER on March 20, 2022, 01:49:26 AM
The CFL game doesn't need tweaking..  it's the marketing that needs to improve to appeal to younger and more diverse fans. Currently the CFL is only mostly able to attract older fans.
Title: Re: CFL contemplating 4 major changes to CFL '22
Post by: Lincoln Locomotive on March 20, 2022, 04:43:58 AM
Quote from: BLUEBOMBER on March 20, 2022, 01:49:26 AM
The CFL game doesn't need tweaking..  it's the marketing that needs to improve to appeal to younger and more diverse fans. Currently the CFL is only mostly able to attract older fans.
i think you're correct.....if they're trying to attract the younger audiences and can't see how changing some rules will attract younger audiences?   Marketing is everything and currently the CFL sucks at it to be honest.
Title: Re: CFL contemplating 4 major changes to CFL '22
Post by: BLUEBOMBER on March 20, 2022, 05:22:12 AM
In general though, I think football in Canada is on the decline and has been for a long time.  It is being taken over by basketball, soccer, etc..  there is just so much money to go around and unfortunately the CFL/football in general has done a pretty bad job at reaching out to youth in elementary and high schools. 
Title: Re: CFL contemplating 4 major changes to CFL '22
Post by: Lincoln Locomotive on March 20, 2022, 05:51:29 AM
Contemplating the above rule changes including going to a four down game are I believe, well within the realm of possibility though I'm pretty much dead set against any of them....

Here is triple Grey Cup winner, Marc Trestman's opinion on the 4th down rule change proposal with regard to our "brilliantly conceived" Canadian game.

https://3downnation.com/2022/03/19/three-time-grey-cup-winning-head-coach-marc-trestman-opposes-adding-fourth-down-to-brilliantly-conceived-cfl-game/

Title: Re: CFL contemplating 4 major changes to CFL '22
Post by: northof30 on March 20, 2022, 04:52:59 PM
Been a CFL fan for 60 years but the 100 yard field and 4 downs would do it for me. May as well watch the NFL even though I stopped doing that when they changed from being a football league to a political party.
Title: Re: CFL contemplating 4 major changes to CFL '22
Post by: TecnoGenius on March 22, 2022, 12:33:11 AM
Hash: who cares, fine.

100 yard field: hate it, but at the end of the day, meh who cares.  fine.  (There goes our "our field is longer" bragging rights though.)

Can't punt past C: is kind of like my "encourage more O" idea.  Only works if it makes more teams gamble on 3rd.  What if they go for a "FG" on 3rd and purposely kick it OOB coffin corner?  Is that a penalty?  My idea was to make FG's worth less points the closer you are to the EZ.  I still like my idea better.  The goal isn't to turn punts into FG's, the goal is to make gambling more attractive so teams go for TDs or have TOs: both are exciting for fans.

Clock: if the purpose is to squeeze more plays into a game to get more O, this completely goes against what many have said for years that the "game is too long".  They think the game is too long but they want more play time and more clock stoppage??  Uh, ok.  Make up your mind.

How will the clock change affect the changes at the 3 minute warning?  No difference?  There goes the "different" and exciting end of every half.

So it all sounds pretty useless.  On the other hand, they aren't going 4 downs, so we should feel blessed they aren't screwing up our game too badly.  They could have really done some horrific damage.  So let's not complain.  We can breath a sigh of relief for at least another year.
Title: Re: CFL contemplating 4 major changes to CFL '22
Post by: Sec223 on March 22, 2022, 12:50:19 AM
Why even bother with hash marks ? Line up right in the middle.
Title: Re: CFL contemplating 4 major changes to CFL '22
Post by: GOLDMEMBER on March 22, 2022, 02:19:09 AM
Hate all of it. More change less fans.
Title: Re: CFL contemplating 4 major changes to CFL '22
Post by: Waffler on March 22, 2022, 03:16:35 PM
Salary cap tweaking is the only change I would like to see.

Sorry the Bomber D was too good for anyone to beat last year but that does not mean we need more points. Basketball and arena football already exist. Just recruit, coach and innovate better within the game we have.
Title: Re: CFL contemplating 4 major changes to CFL '22
Post by: bluebeard on March 22, 2022, 04:06:59 PM
Very well said.
Title: Re: CFL contemplating 4 major changes to CFL '22
Post by: blueraid on March 22, 2022, 04:32:05 PM
I definitely agree with a change in the salary cap...We look anemic  compared to the nfl as far as salaries and compensation goes ....we need to up the cap substantially....I know there's all kinds of ramifications coming out of that, but we need to at least look somewhat attractive to players to want to come and play here....Failing that we'll be looking at a failed league....so let's get on with it and make that big change to kick things off
Title: Re: CFL contemplating 4 major changes to CFL '22
Post by: 3rdand1.5 on March 22, 2022, 04:48:33 PM
I understand the desire to increase the cap and pay players more, but where will this money come from? Even pre-Covid many teams lost money at the current/previous cap. Unless Ambrosie lands some huge sponsor's or the stadiums all fill up increasing the cap is simply unrealistic. As all Canadians have all learnt budgets don't "balance themselves".
Title: Re: CFL contemplating 4 major changes to CFL '22
Post by: Blue In BC on March 22, 2022, 05:10:17 PM
Quote from: 3rdand1.5 on March 22, 2022, 04:48:33 PM
I understand the desire to increase the cap and pay players more, but where will this money come from? Even pre-Covid many teams lost money at the current/previous cap. Unless Ambrosie lands some huge sponsor's or the stadiums all fill up increasing the cap is simply unrealistic. As all Canadians have all learnt budgets don't "balance themselves".

Exactly. Salary cap has to be tied to revenue. Currently revenue's are sliding downwards. The CFL needs to improve their marketing in order to fill the stadiums. At least increasing attendance levels.
Title: Re: CFL contemplating 4 major changes to CFL '22
Post by: 3rdand1.5 on March 22, 2022, 08:02:42 PM
I believe the league, team owners and presidents needs to look in the mirror and honestly re-evaluate their business models and marketing campaigns and the associated failures. Attendance is trending down, higher paid players, shorter fields, more downs, different hashmarks, changing punting rules etc these are not going to change the attendance and viewing numbers.

At it's core the CFL needs higher viewing numbers and higher attendance. Without that they do not have the resources or leverage to negotiate or increase any spending. So the multi million dollar question is....what can be done to increase these and look in the mirror and realize that the football on the field isn't broken, it's the other aspects that are.

Title: Re: CFL contemplating 4 major changes to CFL '22
Post by: dd on March 22, 2022, 10:23:35 PM
Moving hash marks-who cares, leave well enough alone

100 yd field-no. Teams will just boot ball throw the end zone like boring no fun league and eliminate kick returns

No punts after centre field-gotta ask yourself why you?re punting on the other teams half of the field to begin with.

Clock stopping after incomplete pass-ridiculous. Games will be 4 hours long.
Title: Re: CFL contemplating 4 major changes to CFL '22
Post by: TecnoGenius on March 22, 2022, 11:19:13 PM
Quote from: dd on March 22, 2022, 10:23:35 PM
Clock stopping after incomplete pass-ridiculous. Games will be 4 hours long.

Ya, like I said, there used to be big complaints about "slow / takes forever" games.  That's part of why they reduced the challenges.  These proposed changes might make the games closer to 4 hours!

Personally, I'd be fine with games being "longer" and more plays, but I'm sure I'm literally the only person.  And it's only because I'm an uber fan who can't get enough CFL.  And I recognize it would be bad for the league as (casual fan) people already get "bored" with the 2.5-3.0 hour games.

No, if you want more O you need to do things that directly a) advantage the O (like stricter DPI rules), or b) incentivize gambles over FGs/punts.

The guy who said maybe mandate 3-4 NATs on D might also help increase O... right now most teams "hide" the NATs 90% on O (like we do).  Force teams to put more sub-par NATs on D and you'll get a lot more O as teams pick apart the weak link(s) with explosion plays.  I wouldn't like this idea, but it would work.

Oh ya, and bring back the 3rd dressed QB and money for his salary... the quality of QB in the CFL is horrifically bad compared to 7 years ago.  We need more QBs coming up here, more need game reps, more need development.  The QB situation will probably be hopeless in another 2-3 years if nothing changes.
Title: Re: CFL contemplating 4 major changes to CFL '22
Post by: Lake Winnipeg on March 23, 2022, 02:05:25 AM

Hash-marks being changed is a massive change and is the right move. It would drastically change the offenses.
Title: Re: CFL contemplating 4 major changes to CFL '22
Post by: theaardvark on March 23, 2022, 03:05:48 PM
5 yard holding calls will make them easier to call, and they should call them more, but it will slow the pace of the game.  I think make then 15 yards, and call them more tightly.  Make the OLine play a cleaner game... and make the O move faster.
Title: Re: CFL contemplating 4 major changes to CFL '22
Post by: Blue In BC on March 23, 2022, 03:15:43 PM
It's not the rules that need changing in order to make the game more exciting. Sure if there is a good idea for a rule change then by all means. However the CFL game is exciting already.

The issue is with creating more interest. Better advertising and creativity. Possibly lowering ticket prices in order to increase attendance ( a slippery slope balancing that ). We need more young people involved with the game.

Perhaps give 2 opposing local schools age 14 - 18 free end zone tickets a couple of times a year. Or  free /discounted university tickets in the same way. For example in Vancouver, SFU and UBC in opposite end zones or in the upper level currently not used?
Title: Re: CFL contemplating 4 major changes to CFL '22
Post by: Blue In BC on March 23, 2022, 03:18:27 PM
Quote from: theaardvark on March 23, 2022, 03:05:48 PM
5 yard holding calls will make them easier to call, and they should call them more, but it will slow the pace of the game.  I think make then 15 yards, and call them more tightly.  Make the OLine play a cleaner game... and make the O move faster.

The distance applied for a penalty has zero to do with whether it's seen or called. It also has to be relevant to the level of penalty. 15 yards for holding on the OL is too much. 5 yards for a DB holding after 5 yards before a pass is thrown is perhaps not enough and a risk worth taking by a DB.
Title: Re: CFL contemplating 4 major changes to CFL '22
Post by: Jesse on March 23, 2022, 03:21:14 PM
Quote from: Blue In BC on March 23, 2022, 03:15:43 PM
It's not the rules that need changing in order to make the game more exciting. Sure if there is a good idea for a rule change then by all means. However the CFL game is exciting already.

The issue is with creating more interest. Better advertising and creativity. Possibly lowering ticket prices in order to increase attendance ( a slippery slope balancing that ). We need more young people involved with the game.

Perhaps give 2 opposing local schools age 14 - 18 free end zone tickets a couple of times a year. Or  free /discounted university tickets in the same way. For example in Vancouver, SFU and UBC in opposite end zones or in the upper level currently not used?

100%

We need to follow some of the financial and marketing moves made by Edmonton this off season.
Title: Re: CFL contemplating 4 major changes to CFL '22
Post by: theaardvark on March 23, 2022, 03:58:15 PM
Quote from: Blue In BC on March 23, 2022, 03:18:27 PM
The distance applied for a penalty has zero to do with whether it's seen or called. It also has to be relevant to the level of penalty. 15 yards for holding on the OL is too much. 5 yards for a DB holding after 5 yards before a pass is thrown is perhaps not enough and a risk worth taking by a DB.

If the punishment is severe, and the infractions are called, then it cleans up the game.  That was my point.  Making it 5 yards means OLine are going to hold even more, and we will get more penalties called because the penalty is not severe enough to deter the infraction.
Title: Re: CFL contemplating 4 major changes to CFL '22
Post by: Blue In BC on March 23, 2022, 04:46:31 PM
Quote from: theaardvark on March 23, 2022, 03:58:15 PM
If the punishment is severe, and the infractions are called, then it cleans up the game.  That was my point.  Making it 5 yards means OLine are going to hold even more, and we will get more penalties called because the penalty is not severe enough to deter the infraction.

The way I read your comment was that YOU proposed the 5 yard holding penalty.

Regardless, the rule is the rule. If they see something they should call something. Not influenced by the "yardage " issue.
Title: Re: CFL contemplating 4 major changes to CFL '22
Post by: bluebeard on March 23, 2022, 05:41:22 PM
I like the NFL penalty for holding...5 yards and 1st down.  This can really help a team has just lost yardage previous due to a sack or other play.  Keeps the offense on the field.
Title: Re: CFL contemplating 4 major changes to CFL '22
Post by: Lake Winnipeg on March 23, 2022, 08:25:33 PM
Quote from: dd on March 22, 2022, 10:23:35 PM
Moving hash marks-who cares, leave well enough alone

100 yd field-no. Teams will just boot ball throw the end zone like boring no fun league and eliminate kick returns

No punts after centre field-gotta ask yourself why you?re punting on the other teams half of the field to begin with.

Clock stopping after incomplete pass-ridiculous. Games will be 4 hours long.

games are not 4 hrs long in the NFL?

Think before you type please.

It has to do with game tempo and how many plays you can get. The CFL sadly has become a 2 and out league with no more possessions than the nFL. They need to change the rules. If you have a game 5 yrs long who cares as long as they play 5 hrs and not only 20 minutes and 4 hrs of standing around.

Thats the problem with the CFL
Title: Re: CFL contemplating 4 major changes to CFL '22
Post by: theaardvark on March 23, 2022, 11:12:01 PM
About the number of downs, I remember John Candy explaining this way back when...

https://youtu.be/Rypq8ZDJKs8
Title: Re: CFL contemplating 4 major changes to CFL '22
Post by: dd on March 24, 2022, 02:00:11 AM
Quote from: Lake Winnipeg on March 23, 2022, 08:25:33 PM
games are not 4 hrs long in the NFL?

Think before you type please.

It has to do with game tempo and how many plays you can get. The CFL sadly has become a 2 and out league with no more possessions than the nFL. They need to change the rules. If you have a game 5 yrs long who cares as long as they play 5 hrs and not only 20 minutes and 4 hrs of standing around.

Thats the problem with the CFL
Look how long it takes to play the last 3 minutes of the 2nd and 4th quarter, you want a whole game like that. Think before you type please.
Title: Re: CFL contemplating 4 major changes to CFL '22
Post by: DM83 on March 24, 2022, 02:20:52 AM
Three down football means you have to throw more, unless you get a team that's an anomaly like the Bombers. Who have an equally efficient run game.

I love passing and thank God the NFL is coming around go that idea. The other three ideas are idiotic.
Title: Re: CFL contemplating 4 major changes to CFL '22
Post by: TecnoGenius on March 24, 2022, 03:31:08 AM
Quote from: Lake Winnipeg on March 23, 2022, 02:05:25 AM
Hash-marks being changed is a massive change and is the right move. It would drastically change the offenses.

Wink wink, nice.  ;) ;D

Quote from: theaardvark on March 23, 2022, 03:05:48 PM
5 yard holding calls will make them easier to call, and they should call them more, but it will slow the pace of the game.  I think make then 15 yards, and call them more tightly.  Make the OLine play a cleaner game... and make the O move faster.

The entire point is to generate more O!!  You don't get more O and better throws/TDs by holding the OL to a higher standard!  If anything, they should do the opposite: allow way more holding.  I wouldn't like it, but if you want more O, that's a great cheap way to get it.  Let every team play like SSK does  ;) ;) :D :D  hold city.

Actually, if they ref every game like they did the 2019 post-season (all games), you'd get the same effect... they "let the guys play" in that post-season.  Almost no holds called even though there was some "normal" holding going on (esp the SSK game).

Remember, the goal stated by the CFL is to get more O, more advantage to the O, more TDs scored, more points per game, more completed passes.  Anything you do to make it harder on the O, or easier for the D, will work against that goal.
Title: Re: CFL contemplating 4 major changes to CFL '22
Post by: TecnoGenius on March 24, 2022, 03:36:32 AM
Quote from: theaardvark on March 23, 2022, 11:12:01 PM
About the number of downs, I remember John Candy explaining this way back when...

https://youtu.be/Rypq8ZDJKs8

Hahaha.  I thought you were going to post something he said as the Argos owner.  But SCTV is better!  I remember that one, great episode with the woodchuck bit.  Hilarious.

You know I've seen this skit ever since I was a kid, probably 100 times, and I never once realized until now he's saying there are 4 downs in Canada and that we just don't use the 4th because we're too scared.  Hey... you never know...

Can Fax, the Canadian fact ministry
Title: Re: CFL contemplating 4 major changes to CFL '22
Post by: TecnoGenius on March 24, 2022, 04:24:36 AM
Quote from: Lake Winnipeg on March 23, 2022, 02:05:25 AM
Hash-marks being changed is a massive change and is the right move. It would drastically change the offenses.

Actually... on second thought... given the abysmal depressing disgusting league-wide worst FG percentage in history all 2021 (well, it felt like it), moving the hashes closer to the center might actually help!  How many of those Ali 2-feet-wide misses would have been scores had the hash been 2+ feet over?

Of course, this will do nothing for "game excitement".  No one gets too excited over their O "failing" and getting just a FG (unless it wins the game).  Need to focus more on TDs.

And more importantly, the real answer to upping the FG percentages is to get better kickers up here, league-wide.  It's sad the CFL (yes, CFL, due to SMS limits) couldn't retain Medlock.  Bet he would have stayed for $100k more and had 5 more good years.  Put me in the "SMS should be higher, players need more money" camp.
Title: Re: CFL contemplating 4 major changes to CFL '22
Post by: ModAdmin on March 24, 2022, 04:53:55 AM
Several reports saying, at least, 3 downs remain in 2022.
Title: Re: CFL contemplating 4 major changes to CFL '22
Post by: The Fresh Prince Of Belair, MB on March 24, 2022, 01:25:25 PM
What would CFL games look like if they added an extra down?
3-4 yard check down passes almost every play?
QBs completing 50 of 55 passes per game?
Unstoppable offences?
Final scores like 57-48?
Title: Re: CFL contemplating 4 major changes to CFL '22
Post by: theaardvark on March 24, 2022, 10:15:18 PM
10 downs... if you're going to mess up the league, at least do something new and creative...

10 downs, no reset.  You have 10 downs to score, TD or FG.  No punting, if you don't score, turnover on downs.  Missed FG, rouge, return, or OB comes back to the previous LOS.

There... that'll make things interesting...

Now there are reports out saying that extending the NFL field to CFL dimensions will reduce injuries.  So, rather than us taking up their rules, they should adapt ours...
Title: Re: CFL contemplating 4 major changes to CFL '22
Post by: TecnoGenius on March 25, 2022, 04:21:33 AM
Quote from: The Fresh Prince Of Belair, MB on March 24, 2022, 01:25:25 PM
What would CFL games look like if they added an extra down?
3-4 yard check down passes almost every play?
QBs completing 50 of 55 passes per game?
Unstoppable offences?
Final scores like 57-48?


Yes

Back to hash marks, it's a funny coincidence but I'm rewatching the 2021 season WPG games and in the final WPG@EDM game with 0:28 in 4Q, Suits is talking about Ali and how when he talked to him Ali said it "was more of adjusting from the alignment from hashmarks in Canadian football".  So maybe my previous supposition was right on the money.

... Or Ali was making up some great excuses to not get fired on the spot... (P.S. he had a pretty good game in this one, even making a 40-something yarder.)
Title: Re: CFL contemplating 4 major changes to CFL '22
Post by: ModAdmin on March 26, 2022, 02:47:29 AM
Bob Irving
@BobIrvingCJOB
12h
There is No serious talk of 4 downs among CFL officials. I repeat, 4 downs is not even on the table so let?s stop speculating about it.  Thanks.
Title: Re: CFL contemplating 4 major changes to CFL '22
Post by: Lincoln Locomotive on March 26, 2022, 06:35:53 AM
Quote from: ModAdmin on March 26, 2022, 02:47:29 AM
Bob Irving
@BobIrvingCJOB
12h
There is No serious talk of 4 downs among CFL officials. I repeat, 4 downs is not even on the table so let?s stop speculating about it.  Thanks.
Feck Yeah!
Title: Re: CFL contemplating 4 major changes to CFL '22
Post by: Stretch on March 26, 2022, 11:40:24 AM
Quote from: ModAdmin on March 26, 2022, 02:47:29 AM
Bob Irving
@BobIrvingCJOB
12h
There is No serious talk of 4 downs among CFL officials. I repeat, 4 downs is not even on the table so let?s stop speculating about it.  Thanks.

I guess that means Bob is not Lake Winnipeg's source.
Title: Re: CFL contemplating 4 major changes to CFL '22
Post by: Stats Junkie on March 26, 2022, 09:15:03 PM
Quote from: ModAdmin on March 24, 2022, 04:53:55 AM
Several reports saying, at least, 3 downs remain in 2022.
100%! We will be playing 3 down football in 2022.

2023?

A change to 4 down football would require a significant investment in time and money. Time to re-write the rulebook. Time to overhaul the systems that the CFL uses. Time to playtest the systems. Time to train people.

A system upgrade would be well into the 7 figure range. That is a sum of money that the CFL would be hard pressed to justify spending after losing one full season and a partial season due to COVID.




But... what if the league were to take on a new equity partner with experience in this area and what if this partner was to foot the bill in exchange for a share in league revenues. That would never happen, would it?
Title: Re: CFL contemplating 4 major changes to CFL '22
Post by: ModAdmin on March 27, 2022, 06:26:08 AM
The questions arise with any rule changes.  What are the pros and cons?  What if such changes turn out to be detrimental to the Canadian game?  The CFL needs to make upgrades to the game that maintain the fan base and attract new fans to the CFL game.  Because some entity wants to throw money at the CFL, with some strings attached, is not a convincing argument to drastically change the rules.  Potentially going to 4 downs in 2023 is a drastic and possibly damaging change to a league that has been successful on 3 down football.
Title: Re: CFL contemplating 4 major changes to CFL '22
Post by: dd on March 28, 2022, 01:20:59 AM
The talk of 4 downs is simply ridiculous. Will never happen and for all the right reasons.
Title: Re: CFL contemplating 4 major changes to CFL '22
Post by: Sec223 on March 28, 2022, 02:44:06 AM
I've asked but I never got an answer to Why do they even need hash marks ? Use the middle of the field. That would eliminate the lame excuse for kickers "he's better from the other hash". "they ran it to the right hash cuz he's better from that side". Creates room on both sides for receivers
Title: Re: CFL contemplating 4 major changes to CFL '22
Post by: theaardvark on March 28, 2022, 03:11:42 PM
4 downs has made a buzz... people talking... as they say, any coverage is good coverage, as long as they spell your name right...

Ambroise has come out and said "THe CFL is 3 down football." and that's good enough for me to move on from the discussion on downs.

Hashmarks, I like the idea.  Lets do it for this preseason, and if it is positive, carry it over. 

Moving the hashmarks to the width of the uprights is a great idea... or, hear me out, maybe move teh upright to the hashmarks?   fewer of those pesky rouge's.. and more NAT kickers would get jobs ;)

Title: Re: CFL contemplating 4 major changes to CFL '22
Post by: Horseman on March 28, 2022, 04:24:53 PM
How about eliminating the point after touchdown kick and make the scoring team go for the 2 point conversion after every TD.
Title: Re: CFL contemplating 4 major changes to CFL '22
Post by: TBURGESS on March 28, 2022, 05:02:42 PM
How 'bout leaving the rules alone for a few years and start admitting that rule changes aren't going to do squat to save the CFL?
Title: Re: CFL contemplating 4 major changes to CFL '22
Post by: TecnoGenius on March 28, 2022, 10:16:23 PM
Quote from: Sec223 on March 28, 2022, 02:44:06 AM
I've asked but I never got an answer to Why do they even need hash marks ? Use the middle of the field. That would eliminate the lame excuse for kickers "he's better from the other hash". "they ran it to the right hash cuz he's better from that side". Creates room on both sides for receivers

You still don't have an answer it seems!  Does anyone really know?

I'll give it a stab: the hash marks create a boundary beyond which they will not initiate the next play.  So when a receiver runs OOB on the last play, instead of putting the ball on the rail, which would be silly, they move the ball over to the closest hash mark.  Also keeps kickers from having to kick from crazy angles (i.e. also from the rail).

They also provide a visual within the field of where each single yard is.  Useful for players, officials, and fans.  If they move the hashes closer together, it is a detriment to this aspect as then there are wider swathes of blank field between hash & rail with less visual cues.  If they are doing this just to help the FG game, maybe Ards idea is the best one!  Might have to use a stronger metal, though.

Is there another function?  I'm sure someone knows a lot more about this than myself.
Title: Re: CFL contemplating 4 major changes to CFL '22
Post by: TecnoGenius on March 28, 2022, 10:24:06 PM
Quote from: Horseman on March 28, 2022, 04:24:53 PM
How about eliminating the point after touchdown kick and make the scoring team go for the 2 point conversion after every TD.

Meh, I like the strategy/gambling involved in the 1 vs 2 dynamic.  Also makes OT more "special".  Plus, the kick isn't a gimme with the low quality of kicker in the CFL lately... was 2021 the CFL low for successful PATs?  PAT misses and the chaotic bring-outs that sometimes ensue are major fun and fan favorites.  Like that time (vs CGY?) we took a PAT back for 2 and it eventually won the game for us...

Hey, you want fun, make that PAT return worth 6+1!!!  It's nearly impossible, like a KO return, so why not really reward it?
Title: Re: CFL contemplating 4 major changes to CFL '22
Post by: dd on March 29, 2022, 02:19:07 AM
Quote from: TecnoGenius on March 28, 2022, 10:16:23 PM
You still don't have an answer it seems!  Does anyone really know?

I'll give it a stab: the hash marks create a boundary beyond which they will not initiate the next play.  So when a receiver runs OOB on the last play, instead of putting the ball on the rail, which would be silly, they move the ball over to the closest hash mark.  Also keeps kickers from having to kick from crazy angles (i.e. also from the rail).

They also provide a visual within the field of where each single yard is.  Useful for players, officials, and fans.  If they move the hashes closer together, it is a detriment to this aspect as then there are wider swathes of blank field between hash & rail with less visual cues.  If they are doing this just to help the FG game, maybe Ards idea is the best one!  Might have to use a stronger metal, though.

Is there another function?  I'm sure someone knows a lot more about this than myself.

You pretty much nailed it. Any play that goes dead outside the hash marks, whether in bounds or out of bounds comes back to the hash marks for the next play. An in complete pass from a hash mark comes back to the hash mark, and does not go to the centre of the field. Hash makes provide a place to start the scrimmage of the next play as well as given additional yard markings on the interior of the field.

I like the cfl version as it really emphasizes the weak and strong side of the field whereas the American version only has a subtle difference. Stay with what we?ve got and don?t change
Title: Re: CFL contemplating 4 major changes to CFL '22
Post by: blue_gold_84 on March 29, 2022, 01:15:25 PM
Quote from: Horseman on March 28, 2022, 04:24:53 PM
How about eliminating the point after touchdown kick and make the scoring team go for the 2 point conversion after every TD.

Nah. That's an OT rule and should remain as such.

Quote from: TBURGESS on March 28, 2022, 05:02:42 PM
How 'bout leaving the rules alone for a few years and start admitting that rule changes aren't going to do squat to save the CFL?

This. Rule changes aren't going to create new revenue or attract more fans. The league should be focusing on its actual shortcomings related to the viability of its business long-term.
Title: Re: CFL contemplating 4 major changes to CFL '22
Post by: Blue In BC on March 29, 2022, 01:38:27 PM
1st pre season game is May 23 and regular season game is June 3. I wonder when any changes will be announced and how the status of the new CBA is going.

Any information of what changes might be coming on the CBA?
Title: Re: CFL contemplating 4 major changes to CFL '22
Post by: theaardvark on March 29, 2022, 03:43:31 PM
How about the USFL 3 point conversion from the 10? Might even be easier to score from the 10 than the 2.5...

Extra points

When teams score a touchdown in the USFL, they'll have the option to attempt a one-, two- or even three-point conversion. Teams will receive:

- One point for a kick made with the ball snapped from the 15-yard line
- Two points for a scrimmage play from the two-yard line that successfully crosses the goal line
- Three points for a scrimmage play from the 10-yard line that successfully crosses the goal line

As a result, a team trailing by nine points can still tie the game with a touchdown (and a three-point conversion), while an 18-point lead is still a two-possession game.

Some other interesting USFL roolz:


Onside kicks

Teams will have two options to retain possession after scoring. The first option will be a traditional onside kick attempt from the 25-yard line.

The second will be running a 4th-and-12 play from their own 33-yard line. If the team makes a first down, fantastic - it retains possession from that spot. If the team attempting the "onside" fails, however, the defense gets the ball wherever the offense is downed.


Overtime

Overtime will be a shootout in which each team's offense will alternate plays against the opposing defense from the two-yard line. Each team will run a total of three plays, and each successful scoring attempt will receive two points. The team with the most points after each team has run its three plays wins.

If the score is tied after each team runs three plays, the subsequent attempts become sudden death until a winner is declared.


(this sucks.... I love CFL overtime)


Two forward passes

Offenses will be allowed to throw two forward passes behind the line of scrimmage, expanding teams' playbooks while adding even more excitement and trick-play potential to games.
Title: Re: CFL contemplating 4 major changes to CFL '22
Post by: TecnoGenius on March 29, 2022, 07:29:41 PM
Quote from: theaardvark on March 29, 2022, 03:43:31 PM
How about the USFL 3 point conversion from the 10? Might even be easier to score from the 10 than the 2.5...

Ya, I liked the 1, 2, 3 point options they had.  Didn't AAF do that too?  I can't keep all my failed leagues straight...  But this doesn't help with the main goal of generating more O & more TDs.  At best it's a tweak to help teams get ties before 0:00.

Quote from: theaardvark on March 29, 2022, 03:43:31 PM
The second will be running a 4th-and-12 play from their own 33-yard line. If the team makes a first down, fantastic - it retains possession from that spot. If the team attempting the "onside" fails, however, the defense gets the ball wherever the offense is downed.

Horrible idea.  This would allow dominant teams to beat up even more on weak teams.  Remember when CGY was super dominant, like 2014-2017?  They'd be 2nd and 20 and convert like 80% of the time, especially against us.  We just couldn't stop them.  With easier keep-possession rules they could have a game where the other team never sees the ball.

And again, it does nothing to address the salient point of more O & TDs overall in a game.

Quote from: theaardvark on March 29, 2022, 03:43:31 PM
(this sucks.... I love CFL overtime)

Agreed.  CFL overtime is literally the best ever invented.

Quote from: theaardvark on March 29, 2022, 03:43:31 PM
Two forward passes

But you can get that already with a lateral/backwards pass.  No need to change it.

However, I would allow a QB to throw twice if the first throw ends up back in his hands on deflection like what happened to MBT in 2021.  You're just asking for QB injuries with the current rule that forces the QB to become a RB.  Particularly bad for a 100% non-running QB like BLM.  (Kudos to MBT for knowing the rule and taking off immediately.  There was another QB in a past year that didn't know and tried to throw again... can't remember who.)
Title: Re: CFL contemplating 4 major changes to CFL '22
Post by: Blue In BC on March 30, 2022, 02:44:23 PM
So many bad ideas trying to alter the Canadian game. We don't want the AAF, XFL or USFL versions of football replacing the CFL. The game is not the problem. Marketing needs a lot of work.
Title: Re: CFL contemplating 4 major changes to CFL '22
Post by: TBURGESS on March 30, 2022, 05:12:15 PM
Quote from: Blue In BC on March 30, 2022, 02:44:23 PM
So many bad ideas trying to alter the Canadian game. We don't want the AAF, XFL or USFL versions of football replacing the CFL. The game is not the problem. Marketing needs a lot of work.
THIS!

Personally, I hate the CFL overtime rules. It doesn't feel like real football to me. I prefer a mini game with kick offs, punting, and both teams getting at least one set of offensive downs. Team B gets a set of downs no matter what team A does with their set of downs. After that sudden death or sudden victory depending on how you think of it.
Title: Re: CFL contemplating 4 major changes to CFL '22
Post by: Blue In BC on March 30, 2022, 05:31:00 PM
Quote from: TBURGESS on March 30, 2022, 05:12:15 PM
THIS!

Personally, I hate the CFL overtime rules. It doesn't feel like real football to me. I prefer a mini game with kick offs, punting, and both teams getting at least one set of offensive downs. Team B gets a set of downs no matter what team A does with their set of downs. After that sudden death or sudden victory depending on how you think of it.


I remember the earlier OT rules which amounted to a mini game with a time limit rather than a sudden death approach. IIRC it was a 10 minute game ( 2 - 5 minute halves ?) with all the normal aspects of a 15 minute Q.

I found that more suspenseful in that anything could happen multiple times. Teams could potentially score several times rather than the single matching approach. Realistically there are not that many OT games in a given season.
Title: Re: CFL contemplating 4 major changes to CFL '22
Post by: Pigskin on March 30, 2022, 05:47:17 PM
Quote from: TBURGESS on March 30, 2022, 05:12:15 PM
THIS!

Personally, I hate the CFL overtime rules. It doesn't feel like real football to me. I prefer a mini game with kick offs, punting, and both teams getting at least one set of offensive downs. Team B gets a set of downs no matter what team A does with their set of downs. After that sudden death or sudden victory depending on how you think of it.


I agree. Kick the ball off and play with the whole field.
Title: Re: CFL contemplating 4 major changes to CFL '22
Post by: TBURGESS on March 30, 2022, 06:58:45 PM
Quote from: Blue In BC on March 30, 2022, 05:31:00 PM
I remember the earlier OT rules which amounted to a mini game with a time limit rather than a sudden death approach. IIRC it was a 10 minute game ( 2 - 5 minute halves ?) with all the normal aspects of a 15 minute Q.

I found that more suspenseful in that anything could happen multiple times. Teams could potentially score several times rather than the single matching approach. Realistically there are not that many OT games in a given season.
I remember that. It was the best kind of OT.
Title: Re: CFL contemplating 4 major changes to CFL '22
Post by: Throw Long Bannatyne on March 30, 2022, 07:55:56 PM
Quote from: Blue In BC on March 30, 2022, 05:31:00 PM
I remember the earlier OT rules which amounted to a mini game with a time limit rather than a sudden death approach. IIRC it was a 10 minute game ( 2 - 5 minute halves ?) with all the normal aspects of a 15 minute Q.

I found that more suspenseful in that anything could happen multiple times. Teams could potentially score several times rather than the single matching approach. Realistically there are not that many OT games in a given season.

I think they abandoned that format because it was too open ended timewise, which made it more difficult for broadcasters and fans attending to schedule.  Like it or not the OT they now use decides games quickly within 15 extra minutes, as always time is money.
Title: Re: CFL contemplating 4 major changes to CFL '22
Post by: Sec223 on April 04, 2022, 12:06:00 PM
CFL should run with this slogan. CFL "RULES" :)
Title: Re: CFL contemplating 4 major changes to CFL '22
Post by: Sec227 on April 04, 2022, 01:46:20 PM
Quote from: TBURGESS on March 28, 2022, 05:02:42 PM
How 'bout leaving the rules alone for a few years and start admitting that rule changes aren't going to do squat to save the CFL?

Bingo!! And look in the mirror CFL. Its NOT the rules that are keeping people away. Its the god awful marketing. Going to be even a tougher fight now. World Cup and Soccer is going to have a lot of eyes on it this year...
Title: Re: CFL contemplating 4 major changes to CFL '22
Post by: theaardvark on April 04, 2022, 03:11:48 PM
Status quo caters to the existing base.

Rule changes can attract attention from lost base, and create new base.

There are zero downsides from discussing rule changes.

Discussion galvanizes existing base, and creates conversation among potential base.

Even the 4 down discussion has no downside, even if it was never seriously considered.  Every time you get the CFL and NFL mentioned in the same sentence, or NCAA and CFL, it is a free marketing win. 
Title: Re: CFL contemplating 4 major changes to CFL '22
Post by: DM83 on April 04, 2022, 04:04:21 PM
I like the CFL as it is.
The first type of OT with two mini quarters produced a winner.
Current format?????kick the field goal.  Not really a desired way to end a game

One thing I dislike is making teams play on less than five days after a previous game.  Eventually, stars get hurt.  That hurt the game  for everyone.
Looking forward to a regular, regular season.

Th Bombers as usual, try and go cheap on entertainment.  Its actually very sad. There is little reason to come early to games, early, and  they just gave up on halftime shows.  Sorry the dogs were good, as was the amateur games  by the kids playing flag football.

It would be nice to bring in local bands that have some "reknown" 

It makes the fans feel like at least the club is trying some entertainment.
Title: Re: CFL contemplating 4 major changes to CFL '22
Post by: Throw Long Bannatyne on April 04, 2022, 05:31:15 PM
Quote from: theaardvark on April 04, 2022, 03:11:48 PM
Status quo caters to the existing base.

Rule changes can attract attention from lost base, and create new base.

There are zero downsides from discussing rule changes.

Discussion galvanizes existing base, and creates conversation among potential base.

Even the 4 down discussion has no downside, even if it was never seriously considered.  Every time you get the CFL and NFL mentioned in the same sentence, or NCAA and CFL, it is a free marketing win. 

Announcing 4-downs to replace 3 would have an immediate impact as season tickets sales would plunge, which would make it very difficult to introduce during such precarious times.
Title: Re: CFL contemplating 4 major changes to CFL '22
Post by: TBURGESS on April 04, 2022, 07:28:12 PM
I don't believe that there are any rule changes that would result in an increase in fans.
Title: Re: CFL contemplating 4 major changes to CFL '22
Post by: blue_gold_84 on April 04, 2022, 09:11:59 PM
Quote from: TBURGESS on April 04, 2022, 07:28:12 PM
I don't believe that there are any rule changes that would result in an increase in fans.

Agreed. The game itself is not the issue as to why the CFL struggles, IMO.
Title: Re: CFL contemplating 4 major changes to CFL '22
Post by: TecnoGenius on April 05, 2022, 04:08:30 AM
Quote from: TBURGESS on April 04, 2022, 07:28:12 PM
I don't believe that there are any rule changes that would result in an increase in fans.

Probably true.  I think losing has a lot more to do with poor attendance (but not everything) compared to rules.

I think of the "lean years" of 2012-2015.  A lot of my dad's longtime (decades) STH buddies (they travel in packs) dropped off from STHing during those years.  Why?  Because they were sick of showing up just to be badly disappointed.  It's like choosing to be the kid everyone bullies.  Some came back once Nichols/AH/Bighill turned things around; some never came back.

Ya, teams like WPG and SSK have big fan attendance even when sucking for years, but most teams don't have that luxury.  BC's attendance certainly seems to hinge on winning.  The Lulay years had respectable attendance vs now.  EDM and OTT have shown that sucking real bad will be punished at the box office.  TOR seems like the odd man out: even when they win the cup there are no more fans the next year: maybe they sense (rightly) that the cup win was luck / flash in the pan, as TOR is wont to do.

The league seems to think that if we tweak rules to get more TDs and yards that it will bring in the fans.  We seem to think it won't.  We're probably right.  But what if the league isn't thinking of fans in stands, what if they're thinking purely of the TV eyeballs?  A "more exciting" (i.e. more yards) game probably would give more eyeballs in the sense that more eyeballs tuning in will stick with a barnstormer, as opposed to a snoozefest of 6-3 in the 3rd Q.  A snoozefest will result in hitting the channel up button.  So it won't result in more "fans" or "uber fans", but it probably would increase casual viewership numbers, and those count for ad $$.
Title: Re: CFL contemplating 4 major changes to CFL '22
Post by: theaardvark on April 05, 2022, 01:47:55 PM
Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on April 04, 2022, 05:31:15 PM
Announcing 4-downs to replace 3 would have an immediate impact as season tickets sales would plunge, which would make it very difficult to introduce during such precarious times.

I did not suggest implementing 4 downs, just "discussing" it...  any discussion, even bad ones,gets the name CFL in the streams
Title: Re: CFL contemplating 4 major changes to CFL '22
Post by: Sir Blue and Gold on April 07, 2022, 05:06:07 PM
Quote from: TBURGESS on April 04, 2022, 07:28:12 PM
I don't believe that there are any rule changes that would result in an increase in fans.

Unpopular take, I am sure, but I think going to NFL rules would increase fans and interest in the long term. Yes, I know a bunch of people disagree with that and would boycott, get angry, swear off the league etc. Toronto and Calgary did vote for four down football at the past meetings this spring but the motion was defeated 7-2. The fact that it was allowed to be considered and that 2 clubs did want to go in that direction should tell you that there is a real possibility it happens in the future. Something big needs to change if you want to grow interest in the game further and I believe that mentality will eventually win out.
Title: Re: CFL contemplating 4 major changes to CFL '22
Post by: TBURGESS on April 07, 2022, 06:19:10 PM
Quote from: Sir Blue and Gold on April 07, 2022, 05:06:07 PM
Unpopular take, I am sure, but I think going to NFL rules would increase fans and interest in the long term. Yes, I know a bunch of people disagree with that and would boycott, get angry, swear off the league etc. Toronto and Calgary did vote for four down football at the past meetings this spring but the motion was defeated 7-2. The fact that it was allowed to be considered and that 2 clubs did want to go in that direction should tell you that there is a real possibility it happens in the future. Something big needs to change if you want to grow interest in the game further and I believe that mentality will eventually win out.
Gotta say that I completely disagree with this take.

7-2 shows that most teams don't want it. I'd guess if you held a poll with CFL fans, the results would be 10% for 4 down football. Open the poll to non-fans and that number would go up to 15-20%. (My guesses, not data) No need to even bring the idea up again unless you can get 50+% of folks wanting it and I don't see that happening.

The CFL has ignored kids for maybe 50 years now. To grow the game, you need to replace us old folks with even more young folks.

Kids today aren't interested in what we were. They don't play football in the streets. They don't get a bunch of kids together to play a game in the park or on a local football field. It's organized football or nothing and many parents don't want their kids in organized football because of the risks. 

Kids lives and millennial's for that matter, revolve around their phones and their tablets. That's where the marketing needs to be. Ads on TV only have a minor chance of getting to the younger crowd because they are streaming, not watching cable, especially once they move out of their parents houses. I'm 65ish & I gave up cable to stream, so it's not just the younger generation.

I don't believe you can 'grow the CFL game' any more. It peaked back in the John Candy, Rocket Ishmail days in Toronto. It peaked in the 80's in BC when they got 50K fans in the stands for multiple games. Those 2 cities need to be strong to save the CFL, let alone grow it.
Title: Re: CFL contemplating 4 major changes to CFL '22
Post by: Blue In BC on April 07, 2022, 06:36:16 PM
Quote from: Sir Blue and Gold on April 07, 2022, 05:06:07 PM
Unpopular take, I am sure, but I think going to NFL rules would increase fans and interest in the long term. Yes, I know a bunch of people disagree with that and would boycott, get angry, swear off the league etc. Toronto and Calgary did vote for four down football at the past meetings this spring but the motion was defeated 7-2. The fact that it was allowed to be considered and that 2 clubs did want to go in that direction should tell you that there is a real possibility it happens in the future. Something big needs to change if you want to grow interest in the game further and I believe that mentality will eventually win out.

Changing to 4 down football while technically a " rule " change is more a change to the entire context of the Canadian game of football. Just say no and walk away from the keyboard please.
Title: Re: CFL contemplating 4 major changes to CFL '22
Post by: blue_or_die on April 07, 2022, 07:01:34 PM
Quote from: Sir Blue and Gold on April 07, 2022, 05:06:07 PM
Unpopular take, I am sure, but I think going to NFL rules would increase fans and interest in the long term. Yes, I know a bunch of people disagree with that and would boycott, get angry, swear off the league etc. Toronto and Calgary did vote for four down football at the past meetings this spring but the motion was defeated 7-2. The fact that it was allowed to be considered and that 2 clubs did want to go in that direction should tell you that there is a real possibility it happens in the future. Something big needs to change if you want to grow interest in the game further and I believe that mentality will eventually win out.

Re the bolded, just because something changes doesn't mean it will grow interest. I highly, highly doubt that there is a swath of would-be fans out there who aren't interested in the CFL because of the number of downs.

It's not the fact that the NFL has 4 downs that makes it popular, it's that it's big, it's cool, and Patrick Mahomes plays in it.
Title: Re: CFL contemplating 4 major changes to CFL '22
Post by: Sir Blue and Gold on April 07, 2022, 07:08:46 PM
I get it. Like I said I know it's an unpopular take. I'm more than happy to continue supporting a 3 down league. I'm 100% invested in supporting the Bombers which I consider to be my main professional sports passion. I'm not going to be campaigning for four down football either. But I am prepared to say that I would enjoy a four down CFL just as much and I believe it would be better for the long term health of the sport if Canada aligned with NFL standards (both professionally and through the youth and CIS games).
Title: Re: CFL contemplating 4 major changes to CFL '22
Post by: GCn19 on April 07, 2022, 07:34:30 PM
Quote from: blue_or_die on April 07, 2022, 07:01:34 PM
Re the bolded, just because something changes doesn't mean it will grow interest. I highly, highly doubt that there is a swath of would-be fans out there who aren't interested in the CFL because of the number of downs.

It's not the fact that the NFL has 4 downs that makes it popular, it's that it's big, it's cool, and Patrick Mahomes plays in it.

They go to 4 downs and I become a very casual fan. That's 4 season tix lost right there. I am sure there are many others just on this forum who feel the same way. So to grow the league I am pretty positive it is the wrong step to start in the hole by losing the existing fans you already have. I agree with you...I don't see or hear anyone saying they would be a CFL fan if it had 4 downs. Canadians would hate it...and Americans would remain indifferent. All my friends in the States think the CFL rules are actually good but they just won't follow because summer is for baseball and fishing.
Title: Re: CFL contemplating 4 major changes to CFL '22
Post by: Pigskin on April 07, 2022, 07:41:27 PM
Quote from: GCn19 on April 07, 2022, 07:34:30 PM
They go to 4 downs and I become a very casual fan. That's 4 season tix lost right there. I am sure there are many others just on this forum who feel the same way. So to grow the league I am pretty positive it is the wrong step to start in the hole by losing the existing fans you already have. I agree with you...I don't see or hear anyone saying they would be a CFL fan if it had 4 downs. Canadians would hate it...and Americans would remain indifferent. All my friends in the States think the CFL rules are actually good but they just won't follow because summer is for baseball and fishing.

Agree, if we go to 4 downs, we would also be casual fans. Leave the game as it is.
Title: Re: CFL contemplating 4 major changes to CFL '22
Post by: theaardvark on April 07, 2022, 08:48:54 PM
The 4 down discussion has been had too many times, and is over... we all know that 3 downs is a Canadian thing.  It would be like the NHL adopting the Olympic ice surface size.  Or Baseball going to 4 outs. 

Tweaks are as good at creating discussion as the 4 down argument.  Hashmarks, QB's in the ratio, Global player wages... these are all things that are pertinent to potentially improving the game.  Which is what we are interested in.

4 downs does not improve the game, it changes it completely.

And not for the better.
Title: Re: CFL contemplating 4 major changes to CFL '22
Post by: Horseman on April 07, 2022, 09:18:55 PM
Just say no to 4 down football.
Title: Re: CFL contemplating 4 major changes to CFL '22
Post by: Pigskin on April 07, 2022, 10:52:56 PM
Quote from: Horseman on April 07, 2022, 09:18:55 PM
Just say no to 4 down football.

We need some CFL t-shirts that say, say no to 4 down football.
Title: Re: CFL contemplating 4 major changes to CFL '22
Post by: theaardvark on April 07, 2022, 11:38:17 PM
Quote from: Pigskin on April 07, 2022, 10:52:56 PM
We need some CFL t-shirts that say, say no to 4 down football.

"Real men only need 3 downs"

"4 downs to get 10 yards?
Do you even lift, bro?"

"Want some quiche to go with that extra down?"

"2nd and manageable is a thing... with 3 downs."

"3rd and one from the gun, you just don't understand"


Title: Re: CFL contemplating 4 major changes to CFL '22
Post by: TecnoGenius on April 08, 2022, 04:10:50 AM
Quote from: Blue In BC on April 07, 2022, 06:36:16 PM
Changing to 4 down football while technically a " rule " change is more a change to the entire context of the Canadian game of football. Just say no and walk away from the keyboard please.

If you go 4 down you must also get rid of the 1-yard neutral zone!  That itself changes the game nearly as much as 4 downs.  You cannot give 4 downs and have the neutral zone because you essentially get 4 "free" yards every time before you convert.  If you get 7 yards on 1st down, you can just do 3 sneaks to convert.  Lame.

I'm not surprised TOR voted for idiocy, but CGY??  Severely disappointed.  They should know better.  Their fans are as hardcore as ours.
Title: Re: CFL contemplating 4 major changes to CFL '22
Post by: Sir Blue and Gold on April 08, 2022, 01:29:56 PM
I offer two points, one fact, one observation:

Observation: a CFL forum (during the off-season no less) is not an accurate barometer for the marketplace overall on the topic of NFL vs CFL rules (ie. 3 downs vs 4). It is never going to be a popular idea within this community.

Fact: A quarter of 18-44-year-old consumers in Canada follow the NFL, compared to one in six who follow the CFL. Meanwhile, the CFL skews older; three in ten consumers over the age of 45 follow this league. Perhaps the most illustrative finding about younger consumers is how many young football fans are watching the NFL exclusively. Nearly half of 18-44-year-old football fans watch the NFL but do not follow the CFL and only one-fifth are CFL-only fans. So not only are younger consumers more likely than older ones to watch the NFL, they are more likely to only watch the NFL when it comes to football (source: 2020, Mintel, a leading marketing intelligence company).

Back to my opinions, these trends can only go on for so long before the league is forced to adapt or die. It's very convenient for fans on here to blame marketing issues or virtually anything but the product, but customers and potential customers (fans) speak with their wallets and eyeballs and that's all that really matters in the end. Part of the allure of the NFL is certainly its most recognized names, but their game is fundamentally different due to the rules. There is absolutely no doubt that if the CFL were do adopt the NFL rulebook verbatim, 'marketing' and whatever else you may think is the problem would have a far easier time getting people to try out the league (especially amongst 18-44 year olds in Canada who only watch NFL).
Title: Re: CFL contemplating 4 major changes to CFL '22
Post by: Jesse on April 08, 2022, 02:20:54 PM
Quote from: Sir Blue and Gold on April 08, 2022, 01:29:56 PM
I offer two points, one fact, one observation:

Observation: a CFL forum (during the off-season no less) is not an accurate barometer for the marketplace overall on the topic of NFL vs CFL rules (ie. 3 downs vs 4). It is never going to be a popular idea within this community.

Fact: A quarter of 18-44-year-old consumers in Canada follow the NFL, compared to one in six who follow the CFL. Meanwhile, the CFL skews older; three in ten consumers over the age of 45 follow this league. Perhaps the most illustrative finding about younger consumers is how many young football fans are watching the NFL exclusively. Nearly half of 18-44-year-old football fans watch the NFL but do not follow the CFL and only one-fifth are CFL-only fans. So not only are younger consumers more likely than older ones to watch the NFL, they are more likely to only watch the NFL when it comes to football (source: 2020 Mintel, a leading marketing intelligence company).

Back to my opinions, these trends can only go on for so long before the league is forced to adapt or die. It's very convenient for fans on here to blame marketing issues or virtually anything but the product, but customers and potential customers (fans) speak with their wallets and eyeballs and that's all that really matters in the end. Part of the allure of the NFL is certainly it's most recognized names, but their game is fundamentally different due to the rules. There is absolutely no doubt that if the CFL were do adopt the NFL rulebook verbatim, 'marketing' and whatever else you may think is the problem would have a far easier time getting people to try out the league (especially amongst 18-44 year olds in Canada who only watch NFL).

You have to ask yourself why people follow the NFL.

Is it the difference in rules? Or is it the fact that the NFL has grown so large it's more of a spectacle than a game? Is there anything the CFL can ever so to replicate the billions of dollars that the NFL generates? If not, you need to develop and grow unique brand in a niche market. Copying another brand will simply do more harm than good - because we can't be what they are.

Now - with the 7-2 vote about 4 downs. We have zero context for that.

Ambrosie has said it was never on the table (takes a shot at Arash for suggesting it was) - then Arash comes back with this supposed vote.

Arash is strongly implying the vote was whether we should play with 4 downs.

My guess is that if there was a vote, it was not on switching to 4 downs, it was "should we discuss the idea of 4 downs". Which is very different and was quickly shot down.
Title: Re: CFL contemplating 4 major changes to CFL '22
Post by: Blue In BC on April 08, 2022, 03:23:18 PM
Quote from: Sir Blue and Gold on April 08, 2022, 01:29:56 PM
I offer two points, one fact, one observation:

Observation: a CFL forum (during the off-season no less) is not an accurate barometer for the marketplace overall on the topic of NFL vs CFL rules (ie. 3 downs vs 4). It is never going to be a popular idea within this community.

Fact: A quarter of 18-44-year-old consumers in Canada follow the NFL, compared to one in six who follow the CFL. Meanwhile, the CFL skews older; three in ten consumers over the age of 45 follow this league. Perhaps the most illustrative finding about younger consumers is how many young football fans are watching the NFL exclusively. Nearly half of 18-44-year-old football fans watch the NFL but do not follow the CFL and only one-fifth are CFL-only fans. So not only are younger consumers more likely than older ones to watch the NFL, they are more likely to only watch the NFL when it comes to football (source: 2020, Mintel, a leading marketing intelligence company).

Back to my opinions, these trends can only go on for so long before the league is forced to adapt or die. It's very convenient for fans on here to blame marketing issues or virtually anything but the product, but customers and potential customers (fans) speak with their wallets and eyeballs and that's all that really matters in the end. Part of the allure of the NFL is certainly its most recognized names, but their game is fundamentally different due to the rules. There is absolutely no doubt that if the CFL were do adopt the NFL rulebook verbatim, 'marketing' and whatever else you may think is the problem would have a far easier time getting people to try out the league (especially amongst 18-44 year olds in Canada who only watch NFL).

People watch the NFL because it's a billion dollar industry with the top players in the world. Single individuals earning more than the entire rosters of players in the CFL. Half time shows with big name performers etc etc. Billion dollar stadiums.

That said there are some really boring NFL games and some really bad teams. The ability for a team to run out the clock in the final couple of minutes is as exciting as watching paint dry. It's the opposite of what can happen in the final minutes of a CFL game.

I agree the NFL is a " spectacle event ". It's not because of the rules. I remember something Rozelle said many years ago. If stadiums could be re-configured to CFL dimensions, that he'd want to switch more towards the CFL game.  All that motion in the CFL and an addition player in a faster tempo game creates excitement.
Title: Re: CFL contemplating 4 major changes to CFL '22
Post by: Sir Blue and Gold on April 08, 2022, 04:03:12 PM
Quote from: Blue In BC on April 08, 2022, 03:23:18 PM
People watch the NFL because it's a billion dollar industry with the top players in the world. Single individuals earning more than the entire rosters of players in the CFL. Half time shows with big name performers etc etc. Billion dollar stadiums.

That said there are some really boring NFL games and some really bad teams. The ability for a team to run out the clock in the final couple of minutes is as exciting as watching paint dry. It's the opposite of what can happen in the final minutes of a CFL game.

I agree the NFL is a " spectacle event ". It's not because of the rules. I remember something Rozelle said many years ago. If stadiums could be re-configured to CFL dimensions, that he'd want to switch more towards the CFL game.  All that motion in the CFL and an addition player in a faster tempo game creates excitement.

You're right that I'm sure the NFL generates viewers simply because it has so much massive momentum but I don't think the "final minutes" theory holds any truth in today's games. It is a leftover stereotype from a different NFL of yesteryear. After all, if the end of NFL games were as "boring as watching paint drying" I am sure "millennials" and the "younger generation" that people keep talking about would surely go back to their mobile phones or watch something else. Isn't it true they need constant stimulation? Ratings/data/logic are not on your side there.

In reality, the NFL has moved far more towards "traditional" CFL-style games than anyone (in either NFL or CFL camps) probably wants to admit. 2021 maybe was a bit of an outlier in that it was SO good, but the NFL last year had a whole bunch of games that absolutely saw a ton of lead changes and other craziness in the final minutes of games. It really was phenomenal entertainment.

Again, maybe this forum isn't the easiest audience for this discussion but I think there is a disconnect between some diehard CFL fans and the reality of the football sports landscape today. To grow, we are going to have to be open to challenging and ultimately changing long held ideals of what we think (or hope for tradition's sake) is best for the game and what actually is best for the game. (Or we don't and keep what we've built and hope it can hang on. And I'm sure it can in some form. But then don't complain about non-filled stadiums or low TV numbers or bigger markets struggling or younger people not being engaged).
Title: Re: CFL contemplating 4 major changes to CFL '22
Post by: theaardvark on April 08, 2022, 04:48:14 PM
More people watch the NFL for the same reason more people watch blockbuster movies. 

The CFL has an "indie" audience, for sure.

No reason it can't become a viral success though...

Guys like Shai Ross (Winnipeg boy) doing the Oreo Dunk or the Barbell Flip don't hurt...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPg-IFUd3qc

https://winnipeg.ctvnews.ca/video?clipId=2416577
Title: Re: CFL contemplating 4 major changes to CFL '22
Post by: Blue In BC on April 08, 2022, 04:59:58 PM
Quote from: Sir Blue and Gold on April 08, 2022, 04:03:12 PM
You're right that I'm sure the NFL generates viewers simply because it has so much massive momentum but I don't think the "final minutes" theory holds any truth in today's games. It is a leftover stereotype from a different NFL of yesteryear. After all, if the end of NFL games were as "boring as watching paint drying" I am sure "millennials" and the "younger generation" that people keep talking about would surely go back to their mobile phones or watch something else. Isn't it true they need constant stimulation? Ratings/data/logic are not on your side there.

In reality, the NFL has moved far more towards "traditional" CFL-style games than anyone (in either NFL or CFL camps) probably wants to admit. 2021 maybe was a bit of an outlier in that it was SO good, but the NFL last year had a whole bunch of games that absolutely saw a ton of lead changes and other craziness in the final minutes of games. It really was phenomenal entertainment.

Again, maybe this forum isn't the easiest audience for this discussion but I think there is a disconnect between some diehard CFL fans and the reality of the football sports landscape today. To grow, we are going to have to be open to challenging and ultimately changing long held ideals of what we think (or hope for tradition's sake) is best for the game and what actually is best for the game. (Or we don't and keep what we've built and hope it can hang on. And I'm sure it can in some form. But then don't complain about non-filled stadiums or low TV numbers or bigger markets struggling or younger people not being engaged).

Yes and no. 4 down football gives you more opportunities to grind the clock or force the opponent to use any remaining timeouts. Time clock run time before start of play is much longer in the NFL so that obviously allows you to run down the clock as well.

EDIT: I'd point out the failure of the AAF, XFL, USFL and other spring football leagues in the US in the past. All with 4 down, NFL type rules etc. Nothing approaching the hype of the NFL.

Consider the current USFL about to start. All games played at the same field? Yikes, that's like some version of junior football. It might be somewhat entertaining but will it last. I'll be checking out the games this weekend. My guess is that I'd find college games more entertaining watching up and coming new players than what we'll see in USFL rosters.
Title: Re: CFL contemplating 4 major changes to CFL '22
Post by: TBURGESS on April 08, 2022, 05:49:11 PM
The idea that the rules are the reason that people watch the NFL is a non-starter.

Folks, don't watch because of 4 downs, or 100 yard fields, or fair catches, or zero point missed FG's. They watch the NFL to watch the best players, the best coaches, in the best stadiums with the best camera angles, the best analysis, by the best presenters with the best pre-game, post game and half time shows. Folks watch the stats in real time on their devices and play Madden. Folks gamble on the games (Something that could help save the CFL). The CFL can't compete with the NFL and they know it.
Title: Re: CFL contemplating 4 major changes to CFL '22
Post by: Blue In BC on April 08, 2022, 05:51:21 PM
Quote from: TBURGESS on April 08, 2022, 05:49:11 PM
The idea that the rules are the reason that people watch the NFL is a non-starter.

Folks, don't watch because of 4 downs, or 100 yard fields, or fair catches, or zero point missed FG's. They watch the NFL to watch the best players, the best coaches, in the best stadiums with the best camera angles, the best analysis, by the best presenters with the best pre-game, post game and half time shows. Folks watch the stats in real time on their devices and play Madden. Folks gamble on the games (Something that could help save the CFL). The CFL can't compete with the NFL and they know it.

Exactly and good points. The gambling aspect could be an advantage.
Title: Re: CFL contemplating 4 major changes to CFL '22
Post by: Jesse on April 08, 2022, 06:20:33 PM
Quote from: TBURGESS on April 08, 2022, 05:49:11 PM
The idea that the rules are the reason that people watch the NFL is a non-starter.

Folks, don't watch because of 4 downs, or 100 yard fields, or fair catches, or zero point missed FG's. They watch the NFL to watch the best players, the best coaches, in the best stadiums with the best camera angles, the best analysis, by the best presenters with the best pre-game, post game and half time shows. Folks watch the stats in real time on their devices and play Madden. Folks gamble on the games (Something that could help save the CFL). The CFL can't compete with the NFL and they know it.

Which all comes down to money (an amount of which the CFL will never have).
Title: Re: CFL contemplating 4 major changes to CFL '22
Post by: Sir Blue and Gold on April 08, 2022, 06:48:22 PM
Okay, but, and please bear with me, the CFL might not be able to afford the best players, coaches or stadiums but they could align the product to more closely resemble the NFL game. This could be a logical choice if the current market trends continue and NFL interest amongst young people continues to climb (while simultaneously, CFL interest in those demos continues to fall). You will then pretty much have no choice but to go after that group and you're going to have to do something differently to get them.
Title: Re: CFL contemplating 4 major changes to CFL '22
Post by: Throw Long Bannatyne on April 08, 2022, 06:51:03 PM
Quote from: Sir Blue and Gold on April 08, 2022, 01:29:56 PM
I offer two points, one fact, one observation:

Observation: a CFL forum (during the off-season no less) is not an accurate barometer for the marketplace overall on the topic of NFL vs CFL rules (ie. 3 downs vs 4). It is never going to be a popular idea within this community.

Fact: A quarter of 18-44-year-old consumers in Canada follow the NFL, compared to one in six who follow the CFL. Meanwhile, the CFL skews older; three in ten consumers over the age of 45 follow this league. Perhaps the most illustrative finding about younger consumers is how many young football fans are watching the NFL exclusively. Nearly half of 18-44-year-old football fans watch the NFL but do not follow the CFL and only one-fifth are CFL-only fans. So not only are younger consumers more likely than older ones to watch the NFL, they are more likely to only watch the NFL when it comes to football (source: 2020, Mintel, a leading marketing intelligence company).

Back to my opinions, these trends can only go on for so long before the league is forced to adapt or die. It's very convenient for fans on here to blame marketing issues or virtually anything but the product, but customers and potential customers (fans) speak with their wallets and eyeballs and that's all that really matters in the end. Part of the allure of the NFL is certainly its most recognized names, but their game is fundamentally different due to the rules. There is absolutely no doubt that if the CFL were do adopt the NFL rulebook verbatim, 'marketing' and whatever else you may think is the problem would have a far easier time getting people to try out the league (especially amongst 18-44 year olds in Canada who only watch NFL).

What's abundantly clear is no one has the answers at this time, and that includes the sports marketing experts that work for Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment who get paid 6 figures to mostly shrug their shoulders when it comes to solving the Argos attendance problems.  Change for the sake of change is not the best policy, especially when it involves throwing over 100 years of CFL tradition away in haste to find a solution.
Title: Re: CFL contemplating 4 major changes to CFL '22
Post by: Sir Blue and Gold on April 08, 2022, 06:54:36 PM
Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on April 08, 2022, 06:51:03 PM
What's abundantly clear is no one has the answers at this time, and that includes the sports marketing experts that work for Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment who get paid 6 figures to mostly shrug their shoulders when it comes to solving the Argos attendance problems.  Change for the sake of change is not the best policy, especially when it involves throwing over 100 years of CFL tradition away in haste to find a solution.

Well, they are reported to be one of the two teams that voted to explore playing four down football so the "6 figure" executives at Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment may think they have an answer, it's just that what they came up with is not palatable for some.
Title: Re: CFL contemplating 4 major changes to CFL '22
Post by: blue_or_die on April 08, 2022, 07:13:57 PM
Quote from: Sir Blue and Gold on April 08, 2022, 06:48:22 PM
Okay, but, and please bear with me, the CFL might not be able to afford the best players, coaches or stadiums but they could align the product to more closely resemble the NFL game. This could be a logical choice if the current market trends continue and NFL interest amongst young people continues to climb (while simultaneously, CFL interest in those demos continues to fall). You will then pretty much have no choice but to go after that group and you're going to have to do something differently to get them.

This is where you've lost me completely. There's very likely zero correlation between interest and game rules. So how on earth would switching to 4 downs move the needle at all in growing the CFL interest, which is the goal.

That's kind of like theorizing that because the NFL has 17 regular season games instead of 18, and kids love the NFL, that the CFL should "logically" decrease their season to 17 games to capture that demographic.
Title: Re: CFL contemplating 4 major changes to CFL '22
Post by: Jesse on April 08, 2022, 07:14:11 PM
Quote from: Sir Blue and Gold on April 08, 2022, 06:48:22 PM
Okay, but, and please bear with me, the CFL might not be able to afford the best players, coaches or stadiums but they could align the product to more closely resemble the NFL game. This could be a logical choice if the current market trends continue and NFL interest amongst young people continues to climb (while simultaneously, CFL interest in those demos continues to fall). You will then pretty much have no choice but to go after that group and you're going to have to do something differently to get them.

The more you align the product with the NFL, the more people will turn to the NFL as the superior version of that product.
Title: Re: CFL contemplating 4 major changes to CFL '22
Post by: TBURGESS on April 08, 2022, 07:15:31 PM
Quote from: Sir Blue and Gold on April 08, 2022, 06:48:22 PM
Okay, but, and please bear with me, the CFL might not be able to afford the best players, coaches or stadiums but they could align the product to more closely resemble the NFL game. This could be a logical choice if the current market trends continue and NFL interest amongst young people continues to climb (while simultaneously, CFL interest in those demos continues to fall). You will then pretty much have no choice but to go after that group and you're going to have to do something differently to get them.
Lets say the CFL takes the NFL rules... Why would anyone watch it instead of or in addition to the NFL? If you want to watch NFL lite, you can watch college ball. They also have NFL rules and more money, better coaches, better stadiums, etc.
Title: Re: CFL contemplating 4 major changes to CFL '22
Post by: Sir Blue and Gold on April 08, 2022, 07:16:56 PM
Quote from: TBURGESS on April 08, 2022, 07:15:31 PM
Lets say the CFL takes the NFL rules... Why would anyone watch it instead of or in addition to the NFL?

Why were the Manitoba Moose one of the most well-attended AHL teams in the league throughout their history in Winnipeg before the Jets arrived?
Title: Re: CFL contemplating 4 major changes to CFL '22
Post by: Sir Blue and Gold on April 08, 2022, 07:23:50 PM
Quote from: Jesse on April 08, 2022, 07:14:11 PM
The more you align the product with the NFL, the more people will turn to the NFL as the superior version of that product.

If being different has helped, where's the results to back that up? We have the opposite. We have a league with a slight downward trajectory in the short term and market research that paints a very negative picture in the long term. If nothing is done, one can reasonably assume a further erosion of fans over time.
Title: Re: CFL contemplating 4 major changes to CFL '22
Post by: theaardvark on April 08, 2022, 07:55:35 PM
Quote from: Sir Blue and Gold on April 08, 2022, 06:48:22 PM
Okay, but, and please bear with me, the CFL might not be able to afford the best players, coaches or stadiums but they could align the product to more closely resemble the NFL game. This could be a logical choice if the current market trends continue and NFL interest amongst young people continues to climb (while simultaneously, CFL interest in those demos continues to fall). You will then pretty much have no choice but to go after that group and you're going to have to do something differently to get them.

The NFL is attracting young fans because they want the NFL lifestyle.  They don't admire the game, but the hype.  I don't think there are any 20somethings watching the games for strategy or skill play, but rather the spectacle of it.  Add to that things like the Nicklodeon slime bowls.. jeesh,  can they get any self respect?

CFL viewers watch for the game, and the rivalries... THAT is an aspect that is not used often enough... SSK/WPG, HAM/TOR, CGY/EDM and to a more limited degree OTT/MTL have a great regional rivalry... but it could be built upon...
Title: Re: CFL contemplating 4 major changes to CFL '22
Post by: blue_or_die on April 08, 2022, 08:14:59 PM
Quote from: Sir Blue and Gold on April 08, 2022, 07:23:50 PM
If being different has helped, where's the results to back that up? We have the opposite. We have a league with a slight downward trajectory in the short term and market research that paints a very negative picture in the long term. If nothing is done, one can reasonably assume a further erosion of fans over time.

Your observations are correct but you have not presented a solution, just a change.
Title: Re: CFL contemplating 4 major changes to CFL '22
Post by: Sir Blue and Gold on April 08, 2022, 08:49:21 PM
Quote from: blue_or_die on April 08, 2022, 08:14:59 PM
Your observations are correct but you have not presented a solution, just a change.

I would go to a 4 down style game, same field dimensions as NFL with 11 men on the field. I would market it as a "new" CFL and try to align and work more closely with the NFL. I would go after those growing market segments of Canadian fans from the all important 18-35 demo who watch the NFL but not CFL. I think that's the lowest hanging fruit and a potential easier audience to grow/sustain the CFL over the longer term. This would align our game not only with the NFL, but every single other country (globals, whom it seems as though we still feel is an important audience).

The tricky part is timing. Do it too soon and you might lose too many existing fans (the aging ones won't be there forever but they're largely still paying the bills). Do it too late and there might not be a league left to save. As a guess, I'd probably work towards a goal of five years before implementation and from then to now start to get existing fans mentality prepared for the change through formal communications, leaks and pre-season experiment. You'd have some mad folks but some would be optimistic as well. Change is usually exciting if nothing else. If it's foreshadowed for long enough people will have time to get used to it.

The CFL adopted the forward pass in 1929, and I can only assume there were a lot of mad existing fans. Running it forward was the way it always was after all and everyone knows that's the way football should be! The thing about change is once people get used to it, it can open a lot of possibilities. If not, I think the data appears to be showing we can also choose the stay the course and accept a somewhat reduced following with a less profitable business. The pro to that scenario is we didn't do anything to change which may be a victory enough for some, but not for me. (And for the record, if you are in the camp of let's stay the course and see what happens, that's totally fine. I think that's perfectly valid. Just not my preferred approach. I think we've been doing that for the better part of 20 years and something big needs to occur to stay relevant.)
Title: Re: CFL contemplating 4 major changes to CFL '22
Post by: TBURGESS on April 08, 2022, 09:14:51 PM
The 'New' CFL wouldn't last long directly competing for fans with the NFL and having nothing but some Canadian players to differentiate it from the NFL. The CFL would go the way of the XFL and the USFL pretty quickly IMO. Us old folks saved the CFL many times in the past and once we're gone, I don't like the CFL's chances of remaining.

The 18-25 demo have already made their choice and that's the NFL. Changing to NFL rules won't bring them over to the CFL. It will just solidify the second rate nature of the CFL in their minds.

Title: Re: CFL contemplating 4 major changes to CFL '22
Post by: Sir Blue and Gold on April 08, 2022, 09:31:55 PM
Quote from: TBURGESS on April 08, 2022, 09:14:51 PM
The 'New' CFL wouldn't last long directly competing for fans with the NFL and having nothing but some Canadian players to differentiate it from the NFL. The CFL would go the way of the XFL and the USFL pretty quickly IMO. Us old folks saved the CFL many times in the past and once we're gone, I don't like the CFL's chances of remaining.

The 18-25 demo have already made their choice and that's the NFL. Changing to NFL rules won't bring them over to the CFL. It will just solidify the second rate nature of the CFL in their minds.



Agreed - so I think you're going to have to mold the league into the game that the majority of the new fans seem to gravitate toward or invent a great anti-aging tonic to keep 90-year-olds in the seats. I personally think if the league went this way it would be able to retain much of their following. The majority of CFL fans are not on this forum and are not so invested in the rules of the game that you'd get a visceral reaction. You'd absolutely have people who would take their ball and go home. But I think you'd have way more people continue to go cheer on the Bombers, enjoy beer and a hot summer night at IGF with their friends/family. Football is football at the end of the day (for most, or at least that's my bet).
Title: Re: CFL contemplating 4 major changes to CFL '22
Post by: theaardvark on April 08, 2022, 10:15:37 PM
Every XFL/USFL/AFL has been an attempt at your "New CFL" paradigm, and in markets that already are accustomed to the NFL game, with fans ready for affordable alternatives.  And how many have survived?  Its not the game, the rules or even the talent, its the mystique.  Its NFL stars getting in trouble, its taking a knee, its all the rest....

Sorry, the unique nature of the CFL is what sets it apart, and will allow it to survive.
Title: Re: CFL contemplating 4 major changes to CFL '22
Post by: Sir Blue and Gold on April 09, 2022, 12:35:31 AM
I could point out how a startup league is very different from an established league changing around some rules to entice new fans but I'll just close by saying, obviously, we all get to find out how things go.

I will repeat that the league has a lot of good things going for it but also some major challenges and some pretty concerning data emerging about fans of the future.

The four down idea might never take root in the CFL but I do think there will be some big changes needed in the future to help grow the league (or at least find a way to forecast a break even scenario of young fans to old). I don't think that new billboards, an app or podcast is going to do anything. It's going to need to be big, bold and different and it's going to have to fundamentally change the product. Of course, just my opinion. Happy to be wrong as I absolutely love the league. If things we're going great there would be no need to have this discussion at all.

Title: Re: CFL contemplating 4 major changes to CFL '22
Post by: TecnoGenius on April 09, 2022, 01:25:03 AM
Quote from: Sir Blue and Gold on April 08, 2022, 06:48:22 PM
Okay, but, and please bear with me, the CFL might not be able to afford the best players, coaches or stadiums but they could align the product to more closely resemble the NFL game. This could be a logical choice if the current market trends continue and NFL interest amongst young people continues to climb (while simultaneously, CFL interest in those demos continues to fall).

Many have hinted at it, but I'll throw out one big question: how many of those supposed 18-45yo Canadian NFL fans watched XFL/USFL/AAF?  My guess is almost none.  And the ones that did are probably all on this forum.  Those leagues all have 4 downs and closely align with NFL rules, but that didn't help them capture worthy crumbs from the NFL.

Turning the CFL into "NFL Lite with NATs" only hurts the CFL brand.
Title: Re: CFL contemplating 4 major changes to CFL '22
Post by: Blue In BC on April 09, 2022, 01:46:09 PM
Quote from: Sir Blue and Gold on April 08, 2022, 08:49:21 PM
I would go to a 4 down style game, same field dimensions as NFL with 11 men on the field. I would market it as a "new" CFL and try to align and work more closely with the NFL. I would go after those growing market segments of Canadian fans from the all important 18-35 demo who watch the NFL but not CFL. I think that's the lowest hanging fruit and a potential easier audience to grow/sustain the CFL over the longer term. This would align our game not only with the NFL, but every single other country (globals, whom it seems as though we still feel is an important audience).

The tricky part is timing. Do it too soon and you might lose too many existing fans (the aging ones won't be there forever but they're largely still paying the bills). Do it too late and there might not be a league left to save. As a guess, I'd probably work towards a goal of five years before implementation and from then to now start to get existing fans mentality prepared for the change through formal communications, leaks and pre-season experiment. You'd have some mad folks but some would be optimistic as well. Change is usually exciting if nothing else. If it's foreshadowed for long enough people will have time to get used to it.

The CFL adopted the forward pass in 1929, and I can only assume there were a lot of mad existing fans. Running it forward was the way it always was after all and everyone knows that's the way football should be! The thing about change is once people get used to it, it can open a lot of possibilities. If not, I think the data appears to be showing we can also choose the stay the course and accept a somewhat reduced following with a less profitable business. The pro to that scenario is we didn't do anything to change which may be a victory enough for some, but not for me. (And for the record, if you are in the camp of let's stay the course and see what happens, that's totally fine. I think that's perfectly valid. Just not my preferred approach. I think we've been doing that for the better part of 20 years and something big needs to occur to stay relevant.)

You're entitled to your opinion but I think this is the worst idea I've ever heard on this forum. There have been some doozies in the past but this would be the end of the CFL IMO.

Incremental changes are fine and the game has changed dramatically since the early days. Roster sizes have increased and rules have been modified. I'd say the technical improvements ( replay ) had helped see what needs to change in rules as an example. Replays have been useful. More cameras and better trained refs etc.

Title: Re: CFL contemplating 4 major changes to CFL '22
Post by: Sir Blue and Gold on April 09, 2022, 03:27:49 PM
Quote from: Blue In BC on April 09, 2022, 01:46:09 PM
You're entitled to your opinion but I think this is the worst idea I've ever heard on this forum. There have been some doozies in the past but this would be the end of the CFL IMO.

Incremental changes are fine and the game has changed dramatically since the early days. Roster sizes have increased and rules have been modified. I'd say the technical improvements ( replay ) had helped see what needs to change in rules as an example. Replays have been useful. More cameras and better trained refs etc.



It's not going to be popular idea amongst die hard CFL fans of which this forum is certainly comprised of. On the one hand, it's probably not a good idea to upset your most ardent supporters. On the other hand, there doesn't appear to be enough of us across the country and the numbers I have seen show regression.

Does Toronto just limp along indefinitely? If BC continues to slide backwards can two of the nine teams continue to run deficients? The prairie teams need someone to play against and with a form of revenue sharing now in place we all are going to start paying for no one showing up in Toronto or BC.
Title: Re: CFL contemplating 4 major changes to CFL '22
Post by: TBURGESS on April 09, 2022, 04:07:47 PM
Quote from: Sir Blue and Gold on April 09, 2022, 03:27:49 PM
It's not going to be popular idea amongst die hard CFL fans of which this forum is certainly comprised of. On the one hand, it's probably not a good idea to upset your most ardent supporters. On the other hand, there doesn't appear to be enough of us across the country and the numbers I have seen show regression.

Does Toronto just limp along indefinitely? If BC continues to slide backwards can two of the nine teams continue to run deficients? The prairie teams need someone to play against and with a form of revenue sharing now in place we all are going to start paying for no one showing up in Toronto or BC.
Does changing the rules to NFL rules fix anything? Does it mean more fans in the stands and more eyes on the TV? I don't think so.
Title: Re: CFL contemplating 4 major changes to CFL '22
Post by: Sir Blue and Gold on April 09, 2022, 05:03:52 PM
Quote from: TBURGESS on April 09, 2022, 04:07:47 PM
Does changing the rules to NFL rules fix anything? Does it mean more fans in the stands and more eyes on the TV? I don't think so.

I think there's a good chance over the long haul. Absolutely, one of the barriers to entry for the group of people who like NFL but not CFL is the rules. It is not the only barrier as a bunch of people have pointed out but it is one of the only ones that the CFL completely controls. The group wouldn't be important to the future of the league if things were in great shape, but it doesn't appear to be, so it's the only big idea I can see that has a chance. Happy to hear what you guys think might work but I don't believe it's billboards or happy hour.
Title: Re: CFL contemplating 4 major changes to CFL '22
Post by: theaardvark on April 09, 2022, 06:07:28 PM
Quote from: Sir Blue and Gold on April 09, 2022, 12:35:31 AM
I could point out how a startup league is very different from an established league changing around some rules to entice new fans but I'll just close by saying, obviously, we all get to find out how things go.

I will repeat that the league has a lot of good things going for it but also some major challenges and some pretty concerning data emerging about fans of the future.

The four down idea might never take root in the CFL but I do think there will be some big changes needed in the future to help grow the league (or at least find a way to forecast a break even scenario of young fans to old). I don't think that new billboards, an app or podcast is going to do anything. It's going to need to be big, bold and different and it's going to have to fundamentally change the product. Of course, just my opinion. Happy to be wrong as I absolutely love the league. If things we're going great there would be no need to have this discussion at all.



I could point out that changing the very nature of the CFL game and rebranding it CFL 2.0 (as per your notion) effectively is a start up league...
Title: Re: CFL contemplating 4 major changes to CFL '22
Post by: Blue In BC on April 09, 2022, 06:47:12 PM
Quote from: theaardvark on April 09, 2022, 06:07:28 PM
I could point out that changing the very nature of the CFL game and rebranding it CFL 2.0 (as per your notion) effectively is a start up league...

Valid counterpoint. The CFL game is fine. It's just not filled with million dollar players and revenue.

P. Mahomes earns more than the entire CFL roster of players. Nothing against all the NFL hype but it's not because of the rules, field size etc.