Blue Bombers Forum

The frustrations with Youngers defense has been very apparent in various posts. Even when we hold a statistical advantage.
The bend dent break style to me isn't working, even if the other teams doesn't get a major it leaves our defense on the field too long, and doesn't give enough reps to the offense.

I'm not even sure what the problem is at this point. Saw a bunch of 4 man fronts last night and we still couldn't bring any pressure on Bo.

No one has got more miles out of some early good press three years ago than JY. His system has gotten less effective in each of the seasons afterwards. He gives up way too many yards. He generates far too few turnovers. Quarterbacks get a country club experience.

The unit takes on the mentality of the coordinator and that's soft zone coverage everywhere which puts defensive backs in a position where they have an incredibly long cover clock in their head.

No one can be aggressive on our defense. It's all react, react, react.

It has been flawed from the moment he took over and it has only gotten worse since. And even more alarmingly, in the third quarter you've got Deatrick and Rheda yelling at each other trying to explain who is supposed to be covering what, so amgonst our veteran secondary (which should be JYs mains strength) we've got major problems/ confusion. That's 110% on Younger.

Quote from: Jesse on June 12, 2026, 02:19:02 PMI'm not even sure what the problem is at this point. Saw a bunch of 4 man fronts last night and we still couldn't bring any pressure on Bo.

The problem is the system, philosophy and the mentality. What I have been saying for the better part of two seasons. The Bombers don't play defense the way championship football teams play defense. The whole unit plays like it's third and 20 with five seconds left in the game and a big lead. Attack. Get to the ball. Play downhill. Hit people. Create some chaos up front. Dictate. None of those are valued in JYs system.

That's not to say you can't mix in layered coverages and safe zone looks but JY is not the man for the job and he never was. The system is trash.

Bo had all the time in the world to pick us apart. No pressure at all, so he just stood there and waited for an open receiver. I don't get it.

I believe he has been figured out. Look every team has incredibly knowledgeable coordinators including ours. Younger was unique and different in how he does some things, it caught other teams off guard, but I believe that his system has been "cracked" and figured out. A guy like BLM who has been around for so long and seen so much, is not tricked by what he saw and it was apparent, he knew where to go, when to go there.....look he is a very good QB but it was far to easy for him.....

Quote from: 3rdand1.5 on June 12, 2026, 02:26:43 PMI believe he has been figured out. Look every team has incredibly knowledgeable coordinators including ours. Younger was unique and different in how he does some things, it caught other teams off guard, but I believe that his system has been "cracked" and figured out. A guy like BLM who has been around for so long and seen so much, is not tricked by what he saw and it was apparent, he knew where to go, when to go there.....look he is a very good QB but it was far to easy for him.....

It has for sure been schemed. It had been last year and we had this same conversation. The question for Younger at the time, which I had, is what is he going to do now?

Turns out the answer is he has no idea and it's not even so much the X's and O's although they didn't look good either. It's the entire back-footed persona of the defense.

What bothers me as well, is the lack of aggressiveness, we dont create turnovers, interceptions are few , and hard hits even fewer. We have guys trying to arm tackle and running backs are too good for that.
  First thing we need is a hard hitting safety, that can cover
 The only physical lb is Jones
..Wilson only had 2 tackles against a team that ran the ball 25 times+?

Quote from: Pete on June 12, 2026, 02:44:06 PMWhat bothers me as well, is the lack of aggressiveness, we dont create turnovers, interceptions are few , and hard hits even fewer. We have guys trying to arm tackle and running backs are too good for that.
  First thing we need is a hard hitting safety, that can cover
 The only physical lb is Jones
..Wilson only had 2 tackles against a team that ran the ball 25 times+?

We have the talent. We don't have the vision or philosophy or system. Everyone is always trying to contain. To be incredibly disciplined. It's a cerebral, systems-heavy, thinking style defense. Everyone is playing slow. Everyone is trying so hard to cover every inch of turf that no one is playing the play, beating the guy in front of them or disrupting anything. It's always been a problem with JY's system and the bottom fell out last night. It's just gotten so sooo soooo bad.

We're out muscled too often. As mentioned we're seeing too many shoulder hits instead of wrapping up to tackle. JY is mostly to blame but O'Shea is also to blame.

Anyway, this is all just a continuation of what we saw last year. Who in the heck voted " it's fine and just needs time". Like I don't know . lol

I'm not going to re-watch the game. I'm trying to remember if Moxey got beat for a 50 yard pass or did he commit PI resulting in the yardage given up. Same thing last game. Close doesn't count. Williams had the same problem on Lawler.

Strange that we hardly gave up anything to Lawler but Wheatfall burns us all night.

Our DB's seem to be having an issue communicating, and making adjustments to coverage.  While I think JY's DB heavy defence can be effective, a pro like Mitchell seems to be able to pick out the weak points and take advantage of that.  I don't think VA3 has the same reading ability, which is why we feasted on him.

Likewise, the savvy vet Mitchell was able to use our aggressive pass rush against up, stepping up in the pocket or rolling away from it.

JY needs to step it up against savvy vets, and make the subtle changes that are needed to stop them from picking his D apart, but stay aggressive on the younger QB's that don't read as well.

Quote from: theaardvark on June 12, 2026, 04:17:46 PMOur DB's seem to be having an issue communicating, and making adjustments to coverage.  While I think JY's DB heavy defence can be effective, a pro like Mitchell seems to be able to pick out the weak points and take advantage of that.  I don't think VA3 has the same reading ability, which is why we feasted on him.

Likewise, the savvy vet Mitchell was able to use our aggressive pass rush against up, stepping up in the pocket or rolling away from it.

JY needs to step it up against savvy vets, and make the subtle changes that are needed to stop them from picking his D apart, but stay aggressive on the younger QB's that don't read as well.

The defense has always been pretty bad against good zone reading QBs and the list of QBs who have been really effective against it are seemingly growing: Bo Levi, Arbuckle, Alexander and Harris have all shredded our zones more often than not. I'd say we've had some average (or maybe expected success) against Adams (although it looked worse than it ever has in week 1) and Fajardo and we've looked fairly dominant against Rourke/Maier/Brown. It's not looking good.

Quote from: Sir Blue and Gold on June 12, 2026, 04:56:08 PMThe defense has always been pretty bad against good zone reading QBs and the list of QBs who have been really effective against it are seemingly growing: Bo Levi, Arbuckle, Alexander and Harris have all shredded our zones more often than not. I'd say we've had some average (or maybe expected success) against Adams (although it looked worse than it ever has in week 1) and Fajardo and we've looked fairly dominant against Rourke/Maier/Brown. It's not looking good.

So, we need more man coverage to break up the tendencies we fall into in zone, I guess... not sure how great are DB's are in man.

Quote from: theaardvark on June 12, 2026, 05:52:16 PMSo, we need more man coverage to break up the tendencies we fall into in zone, I guess... not sure how great are DB's are in man.

Whether it's man, match, or zone what we need is a commitment to being more aggressive. We haven't been a good tackling team since JY took over but part of it is the mentality and part is system execution: one feeds the other. When you're consistently being conservative you get a very reactionary, passive defense. Could you imagine a Corey Mace defense not breathing on Bo-Levi for 4 quarters? Or even a Richie Hall defense? Mace would have cut everyone after the game last night. His defense dictates terms even if it gets burned sometimes. The entire philosophy is reversed. When the Bombers had a good defense they did the same. JY has had two years to grow as a coordinator and he gotten worse. Not better.

If we're going to give up 500 yards of offense and 35 points anyway we might as well hit the quarterback.

Quote from: theaardvark on June 12, 2026, 05:52:16 PMSo, we need more man coverage to break up the tendencies we fall into in zone, I guess... not sure how great are DB's are in man.

Problem is the top teams have the top QB's and Bombers haven't done well against these teams in the past 2 years.

Please add the option "it's overly confusing" to the list.

Like him or not, The recovery of Bo Levi from his years of playing poorly and being injured, is a great sports story in the CFL

Quote from: markf on June 12, 2026, 07:38:17 PMLike him or not, The recovery of Bo Levi from his years of playing poorly and being injured, is a great sports story in the CFL

Part of it was Bo's ability to develop the short game which Zac has yet to do. Zac's mid game is elite but the offence for consistancy on quick slants and wideouts

Hard to defend this. Up until last year I thought his weird D was the result of management not getting the right bodies on the roster to host a more traditional defense: hiding an aging Willie. No true tackles. Departure of Jeffcoat. Loss of Bighill. Always hurt Kyrie. Then-newbie LBs like Jones, Griffin and Ayers. And on the opposite end, a stack of talented secondary guys like Nichols, Holm, Kramdi, and the ability "hybrid-ness" of our O'Shea LBs to play in pass coverage (Griffin, etc.). I thought it was by necessity. Now we have Ceresna, a healthy Lawson, and overall a pretty capable (on paper) front 7 that should allow us to be able to play D in all the ways needed to adapt to the situation. Now it appears the JY defense was really a feature, not a bug in his mind.

I won't overreact but it's very clear something needs to change. It was disheartening last night to watch our O march the ball and have an enjoyable series and then for our defense to come on the field and be pushed from their end all the way into our endzone most times.

Quote from: Blue In BC on June 12, 2026, 03:14:26 PMWho in the heck voted " it's fine and just needs time". Like I don't know . lol

I think we all know exactly who

We play too passive of a D and rely on the Qb of making a mistake, which in our soft coverage , we take advantage of. Trouble is with good Qb's like BLM, Rourke and Kelly, they're rip you apart in their sleep. We'll do fine against the Edmonton's and Ottawa's of the league, but will struggle with Sask, BC, Toronto and Montreal.

To those that voted its always been bad.

Facts are its been a top performing D going back to the Hall years for a very long time.

Tough game, 100% but let's not get carried away here wow.  That said some good discussions on what is wrong.  More wrong than right currently.   My biggest worry is our run D.

What will this year bring, who knows.  Way too early to know.  Know what we got by labour day.
 
No hiding the fact we have done similar things for a long time, gotta be a factor but don't count out adapting.  Hall did it at a time when many turned on him.  He brought us championships and much success.  Worked out pretty darn good.

I have complete trust in our defensive coaching and schemes but we need to improve and adapt to adjust to some high powered offenses and very good QBs.  50/50 on the mix of players.  Not enough sample size to know yet.  Plus need to see the unit function when healthier.

I believe the Hall / Younger era of D will go down as one of the most successful runs in Bomber history.  I loved me a Ritchie D but these guys are better.  The players play.

Just keep in mind what you're defending. A system that has won nothing and has a 100% fail rate in the playoffs. Gave up 43 points in the playoffs game and two 30+ points in the first two of 2026. One that essentially flies in the face of traditional defensive theory and one that has steadily gotten worse in each of the years so far. 

We've played one good quarter of defensive football in eight tries this year. It's a unit that used to power us to Grey Cup championships and made a winner out of game manager style QB in Matt Nichols. After three years of Younger we need our offense to score 34+ in every big game. Average to below average QB play and we'll go 3-15 with how bad Younger has been to start the season.

I agree with most of the criticism of Younger's scheme. But I think part of the issue this year is talent. Ceresna was a great addition, but the rest of the defence is mostly mediocre. Holm, Ceresna and Lawson are very good. Willy is getting older and was back to alot of one weak push to the outside of the tackle and then backing off and waving his arms. Nichols has lost a step, as has Wilson. Kramdi is not a great safety and Jones is an average linebacker at best. Corners got beaten badly although I think Williams has promise. At best I think our talent on defense is middle of the pack. Have not been impressed with our scouting of new American talent over the past few years, and our drafting of Canadians has been poor. Shay taken fourth overall, into his second year, and still not taking defensive reps? Seems like a wasted pick.

Quote from: bunker on June 13, 2026, 12:58:00 PMI agree with most of the criticism of Younger's scheme. But I think part of the issue this year is talent. Ceresna was a great addition, but the rest of the defence is mostly mediocre. Holm, Ceresna and Lawson are very good. Willy is getting older and was back to alot of one weak push to the outside of the tackle and then backing off and waving his arms. Nichols has lost a step, as has Wilson. Kramdi is not a great safety and Jones is an average linebacker at best. Corners got beaten badly although I think Williams has promise. At best I think our talent on defense is middle of the pack. Have not been impressed with our scouting of new American talent over the past few years, and our drafting of Canadians has been poor. Shay taken fourth overall, into his second year, and still not taking defensive reps? Seems like a wasted pick.

This is it.  usually not one answer to this question, specially in a team sport. It's not Younger or the players, it's Younger and the players.

Watching the game last night, overall, our defensive players simply are not as good as the ALS. There was some legal hitting from their D that we do not see at all.

Our defensive backfield has been average for several years.

I was hopeful for our d line, only two games, one good one, so there's hope there at least.  Linebackers.... Not great.

And maybe it's also that some of the players brought in and released are better than the old hands we stick with, how those decisions are made I don't know,  I've read a lot of comments to that end.

Our o line is better, but still, how many times did Zach have to bail? Too many. Keep that up we'll be seeing Taylor.
Not much space for Brady.

Did the Bombers offered Houston a contact this off season? And if so, did BC and then Ottawa just out bid us for his services.

I don't think our DL was that good in the 1st regular season game either. We still gave up over 100 yards rushing. I've mentioned several times that we gave up a 100+ yard TD drive in each game.

This is a pattern. It's systemic.  Lack of consistent pressure and soft coverage / chase mode in the secondary.

Quote from: bunker on June 13, 2026, 12:58:00 PMI agree with most of the criticism of Younger's scheme. But I think part of the issue this year is talent. Ceresna was a great addition, but the rest of the defence is mostly mediocre. Holm, Ceresna and Lawson are very good. Willy is getting older and was back to alot of one weak push to the outside of the tackle and then backing off and waving his arms. Nichols has lost a step, as has Wilson. Kramdi is not a great safety and Jones is an average linebacker at best. Corners got beaten badly although I think Williams has promise. At best I think our talent on defense is middle of the pack. Have not been impressed with our scouting of new American talent over the past few years, and our drafting of Canadians has been poor. Shay taken fourth overall, into his second year, and still not taking defensive reps? Seems like a wasted pick.

I agree to a point. It was interesting to hear O'Shea say we played 'young' when, in fact, we're fairly veteran heavy. Nichols has lost a step, was apparent last year and looks worse this year. Wilson and Jones haven't looked sensational and I have no idea who's idea it was to flip them, but it seems to be worse, not better. I was on record saying Willie should have been released a year ago. A defensive end who can't get pressure isn't really a defensive end.

All that said, I think this group of players could all be much more effective with a different scheme and mentality. To make all the stupid, safe zone looks work, number one, JY needs hybrid guys who do a little of everything but are usually experts at nothing. He also makes everything complicated. Example: Nichols declining speed would be less of an issue if he didn't have what has to be the longest cover clock in any system in the CFL going off in his head. The DL would probably make more plays if they were given the green light to attack instead of the disciplined rush/pocket collapse style of the last couple years. Since everyone tends to move backyards to safe zones at the snap no one is ever coming downhill. No one ever can come downhill because everyone is a triple move away from giving up a big play and unlike actual football defense long developing routes are always on the menu because no one ever gets near the QB in JYs system. It's impossible to look good in system like that.

Quote from: Pigskin on June 13, 2026, 01:41:24 PMDid the Bombers offered Houston a contact this off season? And if so, did BC and then Ottawa just out bid us for his services.

I'm not sure but the Lions signed and then released him before the Redblacks signed him. That says something. Lions also signed J. Parker and also released him.

When you see how often we are getting beat deep, its very concerning. Our safety is playing shallow to help stop the run, our mlb (Wilson) only made 2 tackles.
 Our coverage ends up being one on one and were losing the battles.
 Kramdl doesn't have the speed to match todays receivers and hes much better at lb.. at least he can tackle.
The whole defensive scheme is broken

what our defense lacks, is a decent safety who can make plays, not look lost out there.

Quote from: Pigskin on June 13, 2026, 01:41:24 PMDid the Bombers offered Houston a contact this off season? And if so, did BC and then Ottawa just out bid us for his services.

I very much doubt they offered him a contract.

Younger wants guys to fit into his system rather than tailor the system to the talent that is here. So far Condell has tailored his system to the talent here. Kudos to him.

MOS, Hall and Younger all played for and were influenced by Rich Stubler. Bend but don't break Stubler. He won some Cups but also got fired lots. To me the system seems ancient, effective against the lesser QB's only.

I haven't seen a good defence anywhere this year. Last night both QB's threw for more than 400 yards. 

Quote from: Jesse on June 13, 2026, 03:05:30 PMI very much doubt they offered him a contract.

Reportedly 3 teams were interested. Maybe we were out bid. He signed a one year deal, probably Ottawa offered the most cash.

Quote from: Waffler on June 13, 2026, 03:32:19 PMReportedly 3 teams were interested. Maybe we were out bid. He signed a one year deal, probably Ottawa offered the most cash.

Reports had him signing with BC. But, BC backed out of the deal so he moved on to Ottawa.

Bonds would be another interesting player when he is 100%.

Quote from: Pigskin on June 13, 2026, 03:40:53 PMReports had him signing with BC. But, BC backed out of the deal so he moved on to Ottawa.

Bonds would be another interesting player when he is 100%.

I wouldn't rule out bringing Bonds back he's healthy. I'm not sure he will be healthy until LD but he could be a good add at that point of the season.

Quote from: Blue In BC on June 13, 2026, 03:47:45 PMI wouldn't rule out bringing Bonds back he's healthy. I'm not sure he will be healthy until LD but he could be a good add at that point of the season.

I'm sure O'Shea will give Bonds another shot, that seems to be his policy for injured players. Somewhat appalled they gave Nield Schoen's #83 while he's still rehabbing.  Could be the number doesn't mean anything to anyone involved but the Bombers owe him some courtesy for the contribution he made.

As for Houston the Bombers pulled him off the couch mid-season and were probably able to sign him for close to minimum, pay bumps for Kramdi, Nichols and Holms and the signing of Moxie left enough budget for one rookie.  With 4 well paid vets, this is possibly the most expensive secondary in the CFL.

Quote from: Blue In BC on June 13, 2026, 03:47:45 PMI wouldn't rule out bringing Bonds back he's healthy. I'm not sure he will be healthy until LD but he could be a good add at that point of the season.

Can he cover for 9 seconds any better than anyone else?

If 100% healthy and back close to game speed Bonds is a very good option. 

Quote from: Blueforlife on June 13, 2026, 07:02:14 PMIf 100% healthy and back close to game speed Bonds is a very good option. 

He'd still have to wait his turn for an injury to occur, Moxey signed for 2 years, so they won't be quick to give up on him.

Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on June 13, 2026, 07:08:48 PMHe'd still have to wait his turn for an injury to occur, Moxey signed for 2 years, so they won't be quick to give up on him.

Wiiliams isn't exactly a lock and we could change the ratio to add a DB as a DI. Moxey will adjust and just had a slow and bad start.

Quote from: Blue In BC on June 13, 2026, 07:34:20 PMWiiliams isn't exactly a lock and we could change the ratio to add a DB as a DI. Moxey will adjust and just had a slow and bad start.

I can't see it, Vaval is the backup, how are they going to change the ratio on defence when they only require 2 Natl's?  Secondary depth is thin, if any of the 3 inside guys go down they could be in trouble till Allen gets back, although I guess Griffin could fill in anywhere but corner.  Don't understand why they let Dexter Lawson go, he was capable of playing multiple positions and would probably be content with a PR spot seeing as nobody picked him up yet.

If there was a significant issue with JY and his scheme, I would think we'd have an issue keeping guys like Willie, Holm, Kramdi and signing guys like Ceresna, Moxie, JSK...

Having Hall there to help should make the adjustments for next game easier. 

We need the front office SMS to be raised with the new TV money.  Our D had JY, Hall, Stanley (part time) and rookie coach Thomas.  I guess Osh is lending a hand, but still, I think that we could use at least 2 more dedicated D coaches.

Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on June 13, 2026, 07:49:58 PMI can't see it, Vaval is the backup, how are they going to change the ratio on defence when they only require 2 Natl's?  Secondary depth is thin, if any of the 3 inside guys go down they could be in trouble till Allen gets back, although I guess Griffin could fill in anywhere but corner.  Don't understand why they let Dexter Lawson go, he was capable of playing multiple positions and would probably be content with a PR spot seeing as nobody picked him up yet.

In the last game we added an extra DL as a DI. It was Reese. However the premise is whether Williams improves or a healthy Bonds is a better option mid season.

I'm not saying Williams can't develop and become a good CB. It's just an one example how we could change the ratio.

The other as mentioned repeatedly is Ayers. Great on ST's but that's just not enough. Any extra import DB is a better option than putting Kelly in the secondary. We're not getting any extra pressure from Ayers, so I'd be ok with adding Texada after the bye.

ST's are import but we have 12 players that can sub in.

Quote from: Blue In BC on June 13, 2026, 08:28:18 PMIn the last game we added an extra DL as a DI. It was Reese. However the premise is whether Williams improves or a healthy Bonds is a better option mid season.

I'm not saying Williams can't develop and become a good CB. It's just an one example how we could change the ratio.

The other as mentioned repeatedly is Ayers. Great on ST's but that's just not enough. Any extra import DB is a better option than putting Kelly in the secondary. We're not getting any extra pressure from Ayers, so I'd be ok with adding Texada after the bye.

ST's are import but we have 12 players that can sub in.

Williams will be ok I think, only time will tell.
Ayers>Texada imo but close call there.
Reese make any plays?

Could Texada play halfback because he could potentially go in and replace Nichols.

It makes no sense to compare a corner with a will linebacker.

Nichols>>>Texeda

Quote from: Blue In BC on June 13, 2026, 08:28:18 PMIn the last game we added an extra DL as a DI. It was Reese. However the premise is whether Williams improves or a healthy Bonds is a better option mid season.

I'm not saying Williams can't develop and become a good CB. It's just an one example how we could change the ratio.

The other as mentioned repeatedly is Ayers. Great on ST's but that's just not enough. Any extra import DB is a better option than putting Kelly in the secondary. We're not getting any extra pressure from Ayers, so I'd be ok with adding Texada after the bye.

ST's are import but we have 12 players that can sub in.

Saw Ayers take a good amount of reps last game, but he sure didn't make a positive impression
 Once again OShea's favorites hurt us in terms of an effective roster
We can't afford the luxury of having 2 imports only effective on special teams.
 Its also worrisome that our safeties did not seem to make any tackles other than running plays

Quote from: Blue In BC on June 13, 2026, 08:28:18 PMIn the last game we added an extra DL as a DI. It was Reese. However the premise is whether Williams improves or a healthy Bonds is a better option mid season.

I'm not saying Williams can't develop and become a good CB. It's just an one example how we could change the ratio.

The other as mentioned repeatedly is Ayers. Great on ST's but that's just not enough. Any extra import DB is a better option than putting Kelly in the secondary. We're not getting any extra pressure from Ayers, so I'd be ok with adding Texada after the bye.

ST's are import but we have 12 players that can sub in.

They finally have a 7 man D-line rotation and you want to claw it back???  Let it be for a few games to see how it works out.  Hopefully Schmeck comes back soon, I think they'll be in a better ratio position with 2 Natl. DT's in rotation with Ceresna, Gatkuoth continues to take up space.

As for Kelly, I didn't see him get burned or miss any tackles against the Ti-Cats like many others, could be he's getting the hang of it with more playing time.

Quote from: Blueforlife on June 13, 2026, 10:12:21 PMNichols>>>Texeda

Probably. But on the other hand, how could you possibly know? Have you seen Texada play half? Speed and youth counts for a lot and his been much too discounted by the current coaching staff over the last few years. I don't care how smart or experienced Nichols is if he physically can't cover the out anymore. Burned over and over by the Cats and the everyone's got the film now.

Too early to write off Nichols
Too early to start Texeda

Interesting points on Kelly didn't notice him, maybe a good thing

I think Willie is no longer that effective......he mostly backs off the line and looks for a pass knockdown.   He lead the league last season in knockdowns....however he isn't great at pressuring the QB or against the run....even when Ceresna is double teamed.    Our DBs seem small and not that fast and our LBs aren't very aggressive.   Wilson had two tackles and the Cats ran for 170 yards?
Zach and 430 yards passing and on most nights that's enough to win games.....a sure dropped TD pass to Nields and a pick in the end zone didn't help either.   We may have to rely on our offence to outscore opponents however we need our running game to be a big part of that.   Brady had 32 yards on 8 rushes....not good enough

I think the defense is over-complicated in a ineffective way.

It's cool in theory that we have guys like Woodbey, Griffin, Kramdi, Smith, etc who can be anywhere at any time... but it seems like all we're doing is creating open zones by having guys drop out of traditional looks.

If teams were trying to run a tricky offense we'd probably be pretty well set up. But as it stands - simple ground game and pass attack exploits us while players scramble around the field on D.

For the most part I think we have the athletes to get it done. Though I'd rather someone else at safety, Jones at MLB (sorry Kyrie but it's over), and we all love Willie but outside of the knockdowns he's a "meh" player at best.

Simplify the D and let them make plays... if they can't, well then we know what positions we need to upgrade ASAP.

Both Wilson and kelly need to be yanked from our starting D. Neither is the answer at their respective position. Totally agree on Jefferson, he's no where near what he used to be and we should have moved on

I can't quite figure Willy out. Most of the time he does a halfhearted rush outside the tackle, they bump him once, and he backs off to fill a lane looking for the pass knockdown. But in the last game in the second half, they lined him up inside, and he quickly beat a guard with a swim move and was in BLM's face.

I get that he's 35, but I can't believe it's just a motor or effort issue, that he's dogging it on 90% of his reps. Is he doing what JY wants him to do? If so, that's pretty idiotic.

Quote from: bunker on June 14, 2026, 03:28:52 AMI can't quite figure Willy out. Most of the time he does a halfhearted rush outside the tackle, they bump him once, and he backs off to fill a lane looking for the pass knockdown. But in the last game in the second half, they lined him up inside, and he quickly beat a guard with a swim move and was in BLM's face.

I get that he's 35, but I can't believe it's just a motor or effort issue, that he's dogging it on 90% of his reps. Is he doing what JY wants him to do? If so, that's pretty idiotic.

100%. Younger's system almost discourages sacks. It's all about lanes, contain, and a controlled, coordinated rush across three or four lineman. The theory is QBs feeling "pressure" is as good or better.

All defensive lines need some discipline and rush lane control but JY takes things to extremes and in practice then, results in an unconventional, unproven and largely ineffective system which doesn't ever impact the game so long as the QB takes the time we afford him and reads it out.

Quote from: towelie on June 14, 2026, 03:13:31 AMI think the defense is over-complicated in a ineffective way.

It's cool in theory that we have guys like Woodbey, Griffin, Kramdi, Smith, etc who can be anywhere at any time... but it seems like all we're doing is creating open zones by having guys drop out of traditional looks.

If teams were trying to run a tricky offense we'd probably be pretty well set up. But as it stands - simple ground game and pass attack exploits us while players scramble around the field on D.

For the most part I think we have the athletes to get it done. Though I'd rather someone else at safety, Jones at MLB (sorry Kyrie but it's over), and we all love Willie but outside of the knockdowns he's a "meh" player at best.

Simplify the D and let them make plays... if they can't, well then we know what positions we need to upgrade ASAP.

Look how tough the Lions LB's are with Sankey and Hladik, they're old school, they ain't dropping back into pass protection or covering twitchy receivers out in the flats, they're tackling the ball carrier and throwing them to the ground. You could see Thor wasn't too happy with the treatment he received.

Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on June 14, 2026, 06:47:27 AMLook how tough the Lions LB's are with Sankey and Hladik, they're old school, they ain't dropping back into pass protection or covering twitchy receivers out in the flats, they're tackling the ball carrier and throwing them to the ground. You could see Thor wasn't too happy with the treatment he received.

That said, their defence sucked too. Harris had over 400 passing yards and scored over 30.

Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on June 13, 2026, 10:24:49 PMThey finally have a 7 man D-line rotation and you want to claw it back???  Let it be for a few games to see how it works out.  Hopefully Schmeck comes back soon, I think they'll be in a better ratio position with 2 Natl. DT's in rotation with Ceresna, Gatkuoth continues to take up space.

As for Kelly, I didn't see him get burned or miss any tackles against the Ti-Cats like many others, could be he's getting the hang of it with more playing time.

I'm in favour of the 7 man rotation but it comes down to a ratio issue. Our secondary was left out to dry and I'd prefer Texada over Kelly. Scmekel might be a better option in the short term to change that ratio. He has CFL experience. Having 3 import rookie DL may work as the season progresses but is it now? Even Kornelson might be a better option. If he's not why do we keep him around?

I don't know how many times I need to mention that the simple solution is taking out Ayers and let the Canadian LB's sub in for his role on defence. Yes he's great on ST's but is that a luxury we can't afford elsewhere.

I didn't say that Texada needs to start. He needs to be a DI and if not him find anther import DB, perhaps one we had in TC.  Lamont comes to mind.

Quote from: Jesse on June 14, 2026, 12:39:51 PMThat said, their defence sucked too. Harris had over 400 passing yards and scored over 30.

Sasks O-line and protection was execeptional, Harris reads well and releases quickly, and they have great receivers. IMO, they would be a challenge for any defence right now. Have to see how BC's D does against some other teams before fully evaluating them. BC also had 2 rookie corners who might take time to get up to speed. But yes, their D was not that effective last night.

Quote from: Pete on June 13, 2026, 10:24:46 PMSaw Ayers take a good amount of reps last game, but he sure didn't make a positive impression
 Once again OShea's favorites hurt us in terms of an effective roster
We can't afford the luxury of having 2 imports only effective on special teams.
 Its also worrisome that our safeties did not seem to make any tackles other than running plays

Ayers is the 3rd player on ST's. We have Castillo, Vaval and Ayers. Ayers is seeing some reps on defence but he isn't effective. He's not a 1st year player otherwise might cut him more slack as a defensive player.

I like his work on ST's but you have to ask yourself is he the best option we have to use on defence? In 2 games he's had 1 DT and no ST's.  That's a small sample for 2026 but it's still a question on roster decisions.

We might argue that Elsbury at center is the other choice. Our pass pro has been good but our run game was a flop in this last game. I can't grade his performance so it's a rhetorical question. Other than the fact he's on the field for every offensive play.  Anyone know how many reps Ayers gets on defence?

If JSK didn't get injured would he be on the AR instead of Ayers to beef up the rotation?

Quote from: Blue In BC on June 14, 2026, 01:52:01 PMAyers is the 3rd player on ST's. We have Castillo, Vaval and Ayers. Ayers is seeing some reps on defence but he isn't effective. He's not a 1st year player otherwise might cut him more slack as a defensive player.

I like his work on ST's but you have to ask yourself is he the best option we have to use on defence? In 2 games he's had 1 DT and no ST's.  That's a small sample for 2026 but it's still a question on roster decisions.

We might argue that Elsbury at center is the other choice. Our pass pro has been good but our run game was a flop in this last game. I can't grade his performance so it's a rhetorical question.

If Ayers was Canadian we'd all love him as a ST ace but he's not and thus a poor use of a roster spot.

Speaking of LB's: McManis, Sankey, CJ Allen and Awe were all available in free agency. We choose JSK. He may have been a better fit or a better SMS cost or we spoke to the other guys and they choose elsewhere.

Allen is a Canadian starting LB.

I think many of us here were surprised we re-signed K. Wilson. He's steady but he's been getting less effective each season. 

Quote from: Blue In BC on June 14, 2026, 02:20:10 PMSpeaking of LB's: McManis, Sankey, CJ Allen and Awe were all available in free agency. We choose JSK. He may have been a better fit or a better SMS cost or we spoke to the other guys and they choose elsewhere.

Allen is a Canadian starting LB.

I think many of us here were surprised we re-signed K. Wilson. He's steady but he's been getting less effective each season. 

JSK would have been very good and the right price.  S#it happens.
Wilson was fantastic last year.  We shall see how he plays this year, least of our problems imo.

Those other names would have been too expensive but yes deadly.

Quote from: Blue In BC on June 14, 2026, 01:48:01 PMI'm in favour of the 7 man rotation but it comes down to a ratio issue. Our secondary was left out to dry and I'd prefer Texada over Kelly. Scmekel might be a better option in the short term to change that ratio. He has CFL experience. Having 3 import rookie DL may work as the season progresses but is it now? Even Kornelson might be a better option. If he's not why do we keep him around?

I don't know how many times I need to mention that the simple solution is taking out Ayers and let the Canadian LB's sub in for his role on defence. Yes he's great on ST's but is that a luxury we can't afford elsewhere.

I didn't say that Texada needs to start. He needs to be a DI and if not him find anther import DB, perhaps one we had in TC.  Lamont comes to mind.

Texeda likely > Kelly after seasoning

Quote from: Lincoln Locomotive on June 14, 2026, 02:49:42 AMI think Willie is no longer that effective......he mostly backs off the line and looks for a pass knockdown.   He lead the league last season in knockdowns....however he isn't great at pressuring the QB or against the run....even when Ceresna is double teamed.    Our DBs seem small and not that fast and our LBs aren't very aggressive.   Wilson had two tackles and the Cats ran for 170 yards?
Zach and 430 yards passing and on most nights that's enough to win games.....a sure dropped TD pass to Nields and a pick in the end zone didn't help either.   We may have to rely on our offence to outscore opponents however we need our running game to be a big part of that.   Brady had 32 yards on 8 rushes....not good enough

Full stop disagree on Willie, he will have another good season.  It's not all about sacks.  He contributes in so many ways.  Generational talent who can still play.  Least of our worries.  His stats on QB pressures are very good.  I don't have the latest figures but last year he was featured on a graphic (TSN) and was near the top.  Calling all stats nerds to update this take!

Bad pick, agree on run game, bad drop.

Quote from: towelie on June 14, 2026, 03:13:31 AMI think the defense is over-complicated in a ineffective way.

It's cool in theory that we have guys like Woodbey, Griffin, Kramdi, Smith, etc who can be anywhere at any time... but it seems like all we're doing is creating open zones by having guys drop out of traditional looks.

If teams were trying to run a tricky offense we'd probably be pretty well set up. But as it stands - simple ground game and pass attack exploits us while players scramble around the field on D.

For the most part I think we have the athletes to get it done. Though I'd rather someone else at safety, Jones at MLB (sorry Kyrie but it's over), and we all love Willie but outside of the knockdowns he's a "meh" player at best.

Simplify the D and let them make plays... if they can't, well then we know what positions we need to upgrade ASAP.

The defensive scheme is proven, effective and generally highly regarded and being complicated/flexible/heavy rotation is what makes it great.  We rotate everyone, everyone can do multiple jobs, pillar of strength, helps greatly with player development and next man up.  Not a great start.  Run D worries me.  I think we can fix it.

Wilson is full stop done done.  Yes Jones is very good.  LB crew miss Kramdi.  He shouldn't be at S but we have no other better option (yet).

Willie is a top player at the end of a great career that still have a lot to give.  Nobody will ever call him "meh" with any certainty or validity. See above.

Disagree with most of what you said but thanks for your take.  Agree that we have the players, could use a good safety and maybe another corner.

Quote from: Blueforlife on June 14, 2026, 04:28:27 PMJSK would have been very good and the right price.  S#it happens.
Wilson was fantastic last year.  We shall see how he plays this year, least of our problems imo.

Those other names would have been too expensive but yes deadly.Texeda likely > Kelly after seasoning
Full stop disagree on Willie, he will have another good season.  It's not all about sacks.  He contributes in so many ways.  Generational talent who can still play.  Least of our worries.  His stats on QB pressures are very good.  I don't have the latest figures but last year he was featured on a graphic (TSN) and was near the top.  Calling all stats nerds to update this take!

Bad pick, agree on run game, bad drop.
The defensive scheme is proven, effective and generally highly regarded and being complicated/flexible/heavy rotation is what makes it great.  We rotate everyone, everyone can do multiple jobs, pillar of strength, helps greatly with player development and next man up.  Not a great start.  Run D worries me.  I think we can fix it.

Wilson is full stop done done.  Yes Jones is very good.  LB crew miss Kramdi.  He shouldn't be at S but we have no other better option (yet).

Willie is a top player at the end of a great career that still have a lot to give.  Nobody will ever call him "meh" with any certainty or validity. See above.

Disagree with most of what you said but thanks for your take.  Agree that we have the players, could use a good safety and maybe another corner.

Import LB's don't tend to be among the highest paid players on defence. The Lions have some big $$$ players on their roster and still managed to sign Sankey. JSK might have been a good addition but Sankey would have been a better addition.

Lions released Awe when they signed Sankey so I don't think he's more expensive than JSK.

Whether these LB's were considered a good team fit is another issue. I don't know if we even considered any of the alternates I suggested or how much difference in SMS hit.

I think I did suggest signing Sankey over K. Wilson might not have been as much as we think. We'll see if they list salaries across the league at that position at some point.

EDIT: Based on 2025 salaries Sankey was earning about $50K more than JSK. Both were allowed to go to free agency so both might have seen a drop from 2025.

My proposal would have been release K.Wilson, not sign JSK. Sign Sankey and use either a rookie import or our Canadian LB's as depth. Or whatever else fit into the budget.

Quote from: Blue In BC on June 14, 2026, 04:50:30 PMImport LB's don't tend to be among the highest paid players on defence. The Lions have some big $$$ players on their roster and still managed to sign Sankey. JSK might have been a good addition but Sankey would have been a better addition.

Lions released Awe when they signed Sankey so I don't think he's more expensive than JSK.

Whether these LB's were considered a good team fit is another issue. I don't know if we even considered any of the alternates I suggested or how much difference in SMS hit.

I think I did suggest signing Sankey over K. Wilson might not have been as much as we think. We'll see if they list salaries across the league at that position at some point.

Sankey would have been very expensive imo.  Went to highest bidder no doubt.

Agree we need the salaries!

Quote from: Blueforlife on June 14, 2026, 04:55:37 PMSankey would have been very expensive imo.  Went to highest bidder no doubt.

Agree we need the salaries!

Tony Jones is our only LB whose salary is listed at $117.5K in the unofficial roster file. That would have made him # 13 of 15 in 2025. John Jones was shown to be at about $3K more landing at # 12. So there is a bit of cumulative cost involved.

AJ Allen is reported to be earning $490K over 2 years, up from $111K last year. His advantage is he's a Canadian but that's big money.

Quote from: Blue In BC on June 14, 2026, 05:04:36 PMTony Jones is our only LB whose salary is listed at $117.5K in the unofficial roster file. That would have made him # 13 of 15 in 2025. John Jones was shown to be at about $3K more landing at # 12. So there is a bit of cumulative cost involved.

AJ Allen is reported to be earning $490K over 2 years, up from $111K last year. His advantage is he's a Canadian but that's big money.

I would bet our LBs are a good deal and those stars as suggest before were too expensive.   That's a good deal for TJ. 

Quote from: Blue In BC on June 14, 2026, 04:50:30 PMImport LB's don't tend to be among the highest paid players on defence. The Lions have some big $$$ players on their roster and still managed to sign Sankey. JSK might have been a good addition but Sankey would have been a better addition.

Lions released Awe when they signed Sankey so I don't think he's more expensive than JSK.

Whether these LB's were considered a good team fit is another issue. I don't know if we even considered any of the alternates I suggested or how much difference in SMS hit.

I think I did suggest signing Sankey over K. Wilson might not have been as much as we think. We'll see if they list salaries across the league at that position at some point.

EDIT: Based on 2025 salaries Sankey was earning about $50K more than JSK. Both were allowed to go to free agency so both might have seen a drop from 2025.

My proposal would have been release K.Wilson, not sign JSK. Sign Sankey and use either a rookie import or our Canadian LB's as depth. Or whatever else fit into the budget.

I don't think Younger would be interested in old school linebackers like Sankey or Moncrief, he's looking for players with speed and mobility over brute force, even on the D-line.  Not enough beef on the defence IMO.

As for A.J. Allen he is now the highest-paid linebacker in the CFL due to his Natl. status, earning $240,000 in hard money with a maximum value of $246,000.

Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on June 14, 2026, 05:29:06 PMI don't think Younger would be interested in old school linebackers LB like Sankey or Moncrief, he's looking for players with speed and mobility over brute force, even on the D-line.  Not enough beef on the defence IMO.

As for A.J. Allen he is now the highest-paid linebacker in the CFL due to his Natl. status, earning $240,000 in hard money with a maximum value of $246,000.

That would be fine if the front 7 could get pressure on the QB and the secondary could cover until they did. How did that work out for us in 2025 and so far in 2026? We can't stop a team when we need to and the game is on the line.

That was true often last year when we needed to force a 2 and out. Even worse as we've already seen this year, stopping a team with 2nd and 20 yards is almost always a fail. Longer the yardage needed the worse we seem to be.

Quote from: Blue In BC on June 14, 2026, 06:40:11 PMThat would be fine if the front 7 could get pressure on the QB and the secondary could cover until they did. How did that work out for us in 2025 and so far in 2026? We can't stop a team when we need to and the game is on the line.

That was true often last year when we needed to force a 2 and out. Even worse as we've already seen this year, stopping a team with 2nd and 20 yards is almost always a fail. Longer the yardage needed the worse we seem to be.

The D-line played very well against VA and the Stamps, not sure what the Ti-Cats were doing but even when the Bombers brought the house they managed to pickup every loose pass rusher. Credit has to go to BLM for getting rid of the ball so quickly with accuracy, he knew his target before the snap and was right almost every time.

Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on June 14, 2026, 07:35:50 PMThe D-line played very well against VA and the Stamps, not sure what the Ti-Cats were doing but even when the Bombers brought the house they managed to pickup every loose pass rusher. Credit has to go to BLM for getting rid of the ball so quickly with accuracy, he knew his target before the snap and was right almost every time.

Rountree had 124 yards on 23 carries. There were more run plays than pass completions. Total was 171 yards. Against the Stamps we gave up 150 yards rushing. In neither case can you make an argument that the DL played well. 

Quote from: Blue In BC on June 14, 2026, 06:40:11 PMThat would be fine if the front 7 could get pressure on the QB and the secondary could cover until they did. How did that work out for us in 2025 and so far in 2026? We can't stop a team when we need to and the game is on the line.

That was true often last year when we needed to force a 2 and out. Even worse as we've already seen this year, stopping a team with 2nd and 20 yards is almost always a fail. Longer the yardage needed the worse we seem to be.

Way to early to know how our defense will perform this year.  Last year near the top in pts allowed.

We didn't have defensive problem last year, our O sucked.

Got pressure game one, laid a egg game 2.  Bo is looking like he is 30 again.

Run D worries me so far but so much time to adjust.

Lets give it a 1/4 to 1/2 season before we claim to know what this team will be like for 2026.

We are deep at LB, we had a stud go down, that sucked but over paying would have too.

Quote from: Blueforlife on June 14, 2026, 08:17:36 PMWay to early to know how our defense will perform this year.  Last year near the top in pts allowed.

We didn't have defensive problem last year, our O sucked.

Got pressure game one, laid a egg game 2.  Bo is looking like he is 30 again.

Run D worries me so far but so much time to adjust.

Lets give it a 1/4 to 1/2 season before we claim to know what this team will be like for 2026.

We are deep at LB, we had a stud go down, that sucked but over paying would have too.

You're failing to understand or see what is a systemic problem. Points are not the only measurement. Yards given up, field position gained and TOP allowed.

It has little to do with what we've seen so far this season. It's the same problems we've had last year.

Yes our offence was a problem. OTOH, we couldn't push the opponent off the field often enough. I used the example of allowing a 100+ yard drive in both games so far.

This is not new. Often in games where the score was close, we COULD NOT push the opponent off the field. A good defence does that. 2 and out.

We've overpaid a multitude of players. Without knowing what the budget looks like we can't really say we couldn't have afforded Sankey for example. We made choices and we'll see how it works out.

Here are my 2 cents worth after 2 games.

I think our O will be ok BUT we will need to be a lot better running the ball.

Our D in my opinion are not physical enough. And our pass coverage is way too passive. We have way too many uncontested catches. Now I know that every D gives up those type of catches but to me we do that more than any other team. I also think that Wilson is not the middle linebacker we need. I rarely notice him in the game- don't recall him making any hit on a RB in the backfield or at the line. Kramdi at Safety is also a failure- need him at SAM OR WIL. There has to be an intelligent, fast, hard hitting Safety out there. Cam Allen before he got hurt I thought was a step behind the play most of the time this year. I know not a large sample size but...

Quote from: Blue In BC on June 14, 2026, 10:08:00 PMYou're failing to understand or see what is a systemic problem. Points are not the only measurement. Yards given up, field position gained and TOP allowed.

It has little to do with what we've seen so far this season. It's the same problems we've had last year.

Yes our offence was a problem. OTOH, we couldn't push the opponent off the field often enough. I used the example of allowing a 100+ yard drive in both games so far.

This is not new. Often in games where the score was close, we COULD NOT push the opponent off the field. A good defence does that. 2 and out.

We've overpaid a multitude of players. Without knowing what the budget looks like we can't really say we couldn't have afforded Sankey for example. We made choices and we'll see how it works out.

You're failing to understand what has been the pilar of success for this club.  Hall's and Younger's D has been very good for almost a decade.  You are failing to understand that we are two game in.  The players you suggested we should have signed were more expensive.

We have a different set of players this year and a different set of problems. 

We have some injuries, a better DL which will take a little time to settle in.  Our LBs are very good but having Kramdi change positions has brought challenges.  Losing Knox really hurt.  Our backend on D is new and will take time to sort out.

I firmly believe that many have been too hard on our defense, they were decent last year and were on the field way too much with an offense that sucked and was hurt.

Last time I checked the goal of the game is to score more points than the other team. Points allowed can't be so quickly written off.  Yes the other metrics are important.

I have seen this type of reaction before.  Have a couple challenging games and the negativity just gets poured on. Patience.  Game 2.

You nailed it, we spend money elsewhere and couldn't afford to sign a top LB, which imo wouldn't have solved our problems, it actually could have created them (stretching our SMS).

If I was running the club, I would spend money on a safety for sure, maybe a corner (wait a few games 1st), maybe a reciever but overall I would stay the course and see if we have the answers in house.

We have a much different take on the club and that's ok.  I wouldn't have even considered breaking the bank at LB, money better spend elsewhere considering we have some of the best depth at LB is the league.  We don't have the star power but we have a good mix of vets and prospects and value guys.

Last year is done.  We have had a lot of turnover on D.  Yes a lot faces back and same schemes but we lost some talent.  Have you forgotten how successful Hall's and Younger's D has been?

Does our D look good, nope.  Run D is swiss cheese, will we improve, maybe.  Cautiously optimistic.  Way too early to know much about the club.  My money is on Hall and Younger figuring it out.  Have done that before.

Quote from: TrueBlue4 on June 14, 2026, 11:26:18 PMHere are my 2 cents worth after 2 games.

I think our O will be ok BUT we will need to be a lot better running the ball.

Our D in my opinion are not physical enough. And our pass coverage is way too passive. We have way too many uncontested catches. Now I know that every D gives up those type of catches but to me we do that more than any other team. I also think that Wilson is not the middle linebacker we need. I rarely notice him in the game- don't recall him making any hit on a RB in the backfield or at the line. Kramdi at Safety is also a failure- need him at SAM OR WIL. There has to be an intelligent, fast, hard hitting Safety out there. Cam Allen before he got hurt I thought was a step behind the play most of the time this year. I know not a large sample size but...

Very good points
Agree all but think Wilson is ok
Physicality an issue
Kramdi at S a big mistake, I never thought he would even be considered there, said early in camp he wouldn't and ate crow.  Time for the team to eat bird and make that change.  He is a very good Cdn LB.  He isn't the answer a safety.
I think our pass coverage will come around.

Agree about the run game, with it we are sunk.  We live and die with Brady.  Need the OL to improve on how they open holes for him.  Will take time, I called it early the line would need time to gel, which I thought has looked better than expected.  Game is won on the LOS, if our OL and DL can start to cook, everything else falls in place.

Questions for me are:
Has Nichols and Moxey lost a step? I have no idea.  I believe more in Nichols as I know him more. Moxey might need more time to learn our systems (guessing).

Can Williams learn the craft quick enough?

Can our extra DB that rotates in play good enough on max pass pro?

Can our defensive coaches quickly adapt in game, adjust to our current talent and find creative ways to keep teams guessing?

Can we get healthy on D by mid season? Will Woodbey come back?

Can some of our younger players get enough reps on teams and rotation to start to make an impact?

Quote from: Blue In BC on June 14, 2026, 08:12:29 PMRountree had 124 yards on 23 carries. There were more run plays than pass completions. Total was 171 yards. Against the Stamps we gave up 150 yards rushing. In neither case can you make an argument that the DL played well. 

that was the same problem last year. Yes, our offense sucked mightily, but dang, our defense couldn't stop the run last year and we opted to go with Wilson as our MLB??, while Sankey and Awe were free agents, man that was just plain dumb.

Quote from: dd on June 15, 2026, 02:00:37 AMthat was the same problem last year. Yes, our offense sucked mightily, but dang, our defense couldn't stop the run last year and we opted to go with Wilson as our MLB??, while Sankey and Awe were free agents, man that was just plain dumb.

Sorry no, we were #3 against the run in 2025 as per below

Fact is we stopped the run at the 3rd best clip in the league, hopefully we can improve after a couple bad games

Wilson is a good LB, those other names are good but too expensive

We also signed Knox who is a top player but got hurt, it happens

Quote from: dd on June 15, 2026, 02:00:37 AMthat was the same problem last year. Yes, our offense sucked mightily, but dang, our defense couldn't stop the run last year and we opted to go with Wilson as our MLB??, while Sankey and Awe were free agents, man that was just plain dumb.

Not sure about Sankey or Awe but it's bizarre to the degree we don't value pressure or aggression under Younger.

If we're going to give up 450 yards of offense and 35 points we might as well give it up in burst plays while hitting the QB and forcing some off balance throws. We'll at least also generate some turnovers and be harder to play against. All of these 10-15 play drives in three down football is insane and basically unheard of. If you know the game at all you know that to be true.

Quote from: Sir Blue and Gold on June 15, 2026, 03:05:39 AMNot sure about Sankey or Awe but it's bizarre to the degree we don't value pressure or aggression under Younger.

If we're going to give up 450 yards of offense and 35 points we might as well give it up in burst plays while hitting the QB and forcing some off balance throws. We'll at least also generate some turnovers and be harder to play against. All of these 10-15 play drives in three down football is insane and basically unheard of. If you know the game at all you know that to be true.

Hall and Younger's defensive scheme is well respected, proven and has brought incredible success to this ball club.  Brought us two cups, cup appearances and much success after a dark period for the Bombers.  If you know the game at all you will remember this incredible success we have had with these coaches.  New year, new players but rooted in previous success.

I believe that Hall and Younger will be remembered as some of the best defensive minds of this era and our incredible performances over the last number of years as some of the best the club has seen for decades.

Long way to go this year but also lots of time to correct a couple regrettable performances on D.

Top 3 in points allowed last year.  A good run defense.  Something to build on.

Younger values pressure, its a balance.  3 man rush means a lot of max pass pro.  League been that way for years.  Got pressure the 1st game, 2nd not so much.  Way too early to know how this will pan out throughout the season.  Not worried about our DL at all if healthy.

In terms of awe and Sankey, we had already signed Santos Knox, to me this shows that we recognized that Jones at MLB wasn't great, unfortunately he got injured. With Awe no team has resigned him even when he had 100 tackles plus so no way he fits in.
 Obvious to most of us Wilson isn't the answer, personally I'm hoping that we do move Jones back to mlb, it isn't optimal but still better than Wilson. As soon as we get Smith back he should be taking more of Wilson's reps. This will allow us to move an import to safety, whether its Allen when he's healthy or bring back Lamont. Also its time to sit Ayers and bring in another db or even a receiver hes not an effective lb in the regular rotation.
  In looking at the defense as a whole its now at 85% of the voters stating that Younger defense just isnt good enough anymore

Quote from: Pete on June 15, 2026, 05:15:19 AMIn terms of awe and Sankey, we had already signed Santos Knox, to me this shows that we recognized that Jones at MLB wasn't great, unfortunately he got injured. With Awe no team has resigned him even when he had 100 tackles plus so no way he fits in.
 Obvious to most of us Wilson isn't the answer, personally I'm hoping that we do move Jones back to mlb, it isn't optimal but still better than Wilson. As soon as we get Smith back he should be taking more of Wilson's reps. This will allow us to move an import to safety, whether its Allen when he's healthy or bring back Lamont. Also its time to sit Ayers and bring in another db or even a receiver hes not an effective lb in the regular rotation.
  In looking at the defense as a whole its now at 85% of the voters stating that Younger defense just isnt good enough anymore

We signed JSK on 02/10 but could have been reaching out to the other LB's in the tampering window Earlier in the case of Awe. I don't know that we did or didn't but we did have an opportunity to do that.

Awe was signed by the Als on 02/11. Sankey was released long before free agency and signed by the Lions on 12/11. So you are in error on that comment.

It's not clear when or if Allen will return. It seemed clear we made a decision before TC to move Kramdi to safety. There didn't seem to be any real competition behind Kramdi to win that spot. A cumulative decision based on moving all our LB's into different roles.

Quote from: Blueforlife on June 15, 2026, 03:35:11 AMHall and Younger's defensive scheme is well respected, proven and has brought incredible success to this ball club.  Brought us two cups, cup appearances and much success after a dark period for the Bombers.  If you know the game at all you will remember this incredible success we have had with these coaches.  New year, new players but rooted in previous success.

I believe that Hall and Younger will be remembered as some of the best defensive minds of this era and our incredible performances over the last number of years as some of the best the club has seen for decades.

Long way to go this year but also lots of time to correct a couple regrettable performances on D.

Top 3 in points allowed last year.  A good run defense.  Something to build on.

Younger values pressure, its a balance.  3 man rush means a lot of max pass pro.  League been that way for years.  Got pressure the 1st game, 2nd not so much.  Way too early to know how this will pan out throughout the season.  Not worried about our DL at all if healthy.

You mean the defence that gave up 384 yards on 24/34 pass attempts and 166 yards in the Eastern Semi? That's 550 yards we gave up in that game.

I think you need to clean your glasses because you are just not seeing the reality. Our defence does well against bad teams or good teams with significant injury issues.

Against top teams that are healthy not so much. There is a reason we finished 4th in the West and it wasn't just because of our offence.

I mentioned it about the last game. When a defence can't get the opponent off the field, they lose TOP and field position which keeps your own offence off the field.

Offences and defences have best before dates. Change is fluid and adaptive over time.

Quote from: Blue In BC on June 15, 2026, 01:44:29 PMWe signed JSK on 02/10 but could have been reaching out to the other LB's in the tampering window Earlier in the case of Awe. I don't know that we did or didn't but we did have an opportunity to do that.

Awe was signed by the Als on 02/11. Sankey was released long before free agency and signed by the Lions on 12/11. So you are in error on that comment.

It's not clear when or if Allen will return. It seemed clear we made a decision before TC to move Kramdi to safety. There didn't seem to be any real competition behind Kramdi to win that spot. A cumulative decision based on moving all our LB's into different roles.

we dont know of we reached out for Sankey, he may have selected BC for a number of reasons, Like I said Awe likely not a fit. They did get Santos what is disturbing is we seem. To have given Wilson the sppt by default rather than bringing in better competition

Quote from: Pete on June 15, 2026, 02:04:19 PMwe dont know of we reached out for Sankey, he may have selected BC for a number of reasons, Like I said Awe likely not a fit. They did get Santos what is disturbing is we seem. To have given Wilson the sppt by default rather than bringing in better competition

All probably true, although Awe would have been a Bomber in 2020 but was released due to the shutdown. Montreal ha been a top defensive unit so it says something that they signed him. It's an unfortunate pattern with the team that some roster spots are won by default. I suppose that's true with every team to some degree but it seems we have a harder time moving on from vets. J. Thomas comes to mind. We don't sign replacements in free agency and we don't draft them either.

Ayers would be another example. Good ST players are easy to find. If a DI isn't moving up and becoming more versatile, he should be replaced. Small rosters and ratio dictate that. Was there really any doubt he's make the roster even though we brought in a bunch of new LB's. Not one even was kept on the PR.

I think many of us felt that Jones was not that great a MLB, but Wilson is worse. I'd switch them back now and start rotating in the Canadians.

Considering our defense uses almost all of our DI spots, there is no excuse for how bad the defense has been. There seems to always be someone open on 2nd down.

Quote from: Blue In BC on June 15, 2026, 01:54:18 PMYou mean the defence that gave up 384 yards on 24/34 pass attempts and 166 yards in the Eastern Semi? That's 550 yards we gave up in that game.

I think you need to clean your glasses because you are just not seeing the reality. Our defence does well against bad teams or good teams with significant injury issues.

Against top teams that are healthy not so much. There is a reason we finished 4th in the West and it wasn't just because of our offence.

I mentioned it about the last game. When a defence can't get the opponent off the field, they lose TOP and field position which keeps your own offence off the field.

Offences and defences have best before dates. Change is fluid and adaptive over time.

You mean the D that brought us cups and cup appearances?  The Bomber defense has been incredible for a long period of time.  Past success often can ground future success.  That's reality.  You are hyper focused on the last 3 games, I look at things with a wider lens.  Our defense has beat all teams for almost a decade consistently under this scheme.  That's the facts, that's reality.  Last year our D was fine (near top in pts allowed, rush yards, a likely a few other areas).  Previously lights out good.  Last year our O sucked which stressed out the D.  With balance on O this year, D should be better.  Patience pays off, always has, always will with this version of the Bombers.  Deep breath.  Game 2.  Is our D good right now, nope.  Can it be, hell yes.  Does our schemes work, 100%.  Can and will they be better, absolutely.

Our D and O are not expired (yet).  Yes we can adapt and change.  I see an average club that likely can improve by 1/4 or mid season.  We need to digest the changes to the our roster imo.

Just b/c you see it one way doesn't mean that's reality.  I respect your opinion but it's far from mine and that's ok.  Let's leave it there.  I don't appreciate the glasses shot but do enjoy the back and forth otherwise.

Quote from: Blueforlife on June 15, 2026, 03:22:29 PMYou mean the D that brought us cups and cup appearances?  The Bomber defense has been incredible for a long period of time.  Past success often can ground future success.  That's reality.  You are hyped focused on the last 3 games, I look at things with a wider lens.  Our defense has beat all teams for almost a decade consistently under this scheme.  That's the facts, that's reality.  Last year our D was fine.  Previously lights out good.  Last year our O sucked which stressed out D.  With balance on O this year, D should be better.

Just b/c you see it one way doesn't mean that's reality.  I respect your opinion but it's far from mine and that's ok.  Let's leave it there.

This defense also is not the same defense of years past. As for the scheme, that's just not true. The scheme changed when Hall was swapped for Younger. Sure, some aspects did not but more or less it's a different defense.

Now whether it's players or scheme, the run-game has been lacking and teams are converting 2nd and medium/long all day long on us. The "heavy in the secondary" was great because teams couldn't move the ball in the air with the extra DBs. That is simply no longer the case. We all saw it.

Quote from: kkc60 on June 15, 2026, 03:27:12 PMThis defense also is not the same defense of years past. As for the scheme, that's just not true. The scheme changed when Hall was swapped for Younger. Sure, some aspects did not but more or less it's a different defense.

Now whether it's players or scheme, the run-game has been lacking and teams are converting 2nd and medium/long all day long on us. The "heavy in the secondary" was great because teams couldn't move the ball in the air with the extra DBs. That is simply no longer the case. We all saw it.

The schemes are similar.  Hall is still here.  The past success of the D is routed with Hall's schemes which have been modified / improved / tweaked by Younger.  It's not the same yes, but similar.  Splitting hairs imo.  Our run D this year has been poor.  Last year top 3.  The DB coverage has been weak this year but it's two games and it's early with some new faces.  To early to call our D anything until a larger sample size of games.  I have supported and believed in Hall from the beginning.  Maybe wanted him gone and called for his head.  He brought us much success and Younger the same.  2 games in.  Let's set it bread rise before we eat it LOL.  I believe having Kramdi at S was a big mistake but we go nobody else.  I would air lift in somebody but doubt that happens.

I see more similarities than differences from Hall to Younger.  I slightly prefer Younger.  Both very good imo.  Both over criticized imo.

The mood on here by some feels like our pre-mini dynasty run with Hall on D.  Ok ok maybe not that bad.  The forum was pretty manic back then LOL (dry spells will do that LOL).  I have some hope, we shall see.  Not there yet!

I believe in the schemes, mix of current players, 50/50 LOL

Quote from: Blueforlife on June 15, 2026, 04:01:04 PMThe schemes are similar.  Hall is still here.  The past success of the D is routed with Hall's schemes which have been modified / improved / tweaked by Younger.  It's not the same yes, but similar.  Splitting hairs imo.  Our run D this year has been poor.  Last year top 3.  The DB coverage has been weak this year but it's two games and it's early.  To early to call our D anything until a larger sample size.  I have supported and believed in Hall from the beginning.  Maybe wanted him gone and called for his head.  He brought us much success and Younger the same.  2 games in.  Let's set it bread rise before we eat it LOL.  I believe having Kramdi at S was a big mistake but we go nobody else.  I would air lift in somebody but doubt that happens.

You don't know what you're talking about.

Hall ran MOD - it's a cover 4 that turns to man when receivers run routes that past the linebackers (who stayed down and in), so like 10 yard routes plus. If they got short short routes they'd stay. The MLB was more of a QB reader. This obviously works less good if more routes are short because you have the cover 4 drop not doing much. He'd then weave in soft technique that looked like MOD but was actually the opposite and allowed corners to jump stuff.  He'd essentially get you used to taking the flats and hooks/outs and then he'd take it away and suddenly a corner and a half are flying down in. A lot of defensive coordinators called that trap although I don't think the Bombers did at the time.

Younger runs much more pure zone. It starts as zone. It stays zone. There's a lot more moving pieces, linebackers covering routes, others filling run lanes. More emphasis on the defensive line to be consistently in a position because of it. He has a bunch of pressure looks that don't work well behind the zone coverage because of course QBs 101 is to throw where the pressure comes from. He doesn't seem to run trap much (although it's obviously hard to tell a lot of time) and he is very uncomfortable when he's not running deep thirds/double high or over the top coverage of some kind which is why almost always plays are made in front of our defensive backs.

The systems are not the same at all and the unit has gone further and further away from what Hall used to run over time.

Quote from: Sir Blue and Gold on June 15, 2026, 04:14:55 PMYou don't know what you're talking about.

Hall ran MOD - it's a cover 4 that turns to man when receivers run routes that past the linebackers (who stayed down and in), so like 10 yard routes plus. If they got short short routes they'd stay. The MLB was more of a QB reader. This obviously works less good if more routes are short because you have the cover 4 drop not doing much. He'd then weave in soft technique that looked like MOD but was actually the opposite and allowed corners to jump stuff.  He'd essentially get you used to taking the flats and hooks/outs and then he'd take it away and suddenly a corner and a half are flying down in. A lot of defensive coordinators called that trap although I don't think the Bombers did at the time.

Younger runs much more pure zone. It starts as zone. It stays zone. He has a bunch of pressure looks that don't work well behind the zone coverage because of course QBs 101 is to throw where the pressure comes from. He doesn't seem to run trap much (although it's obviously hard to tell a lot of time) and he is very uncomfortable when he's not running deep thirds or over the top coverage of some kind which is why almost always plays are made in front of our defensive backs.

The systems are not the same at all and the unit has gone further and further away from what Hall used to run over time.

I see similarities in the systems, yes agree, over time they have slowly drifted apart.  I never said they were the same, said they were similar.  Both are bend don't break at times.   Both get exposed by explosion plays at times.  Both like to rotate.  Younger has more complexity imo.  Some very good info here and thanks for your post.  That said no need to say I don't know what I'm talking about.  My football knowledge isn't as strong as some on here 100%, I believe there is place for everyone on here to voice their opinions and knowledge.  Not about right or wrong but a collective discussion on opinions.  I believe Hall and Younger have evolved together.  Hall evolved a lot near the end as he was having some issues but corrected it, can't remember the year but he was under a lot of pressure at the time.

My knowledge of the nuts and bolts of the two schemes isn't as strong as yours and others 100% true.  But watching Bomber ball over the last decade, I see consistency and similarities between these two very good DCs.

Need to change things up and get back to basics ...basics being tackling 101...The last game was particularly bad

Quote from: Blueforlife on June 15, 2026, 03:22:29 PMYou mean the D that brought us cups and cup appearances?  The Bomber defense has been incredible for a long period of time.  Past success often can ground future success.  That's reality.  You are hyper focused on the last 3 games, I look at things with a wider lens.  Our defense has beat all teams for almost a decade consistently under this scheme.  That's the facts, that's reality.  Last year our D was fine (near top in pts allowed, rush yards, a likely a few other areas).  Previously lights out good.  Last year our O sucked which stressed out the D.  With balance on O this year, D should be better.  Patience pays off, always has, always will with this version of the Bombers.  Deep breath.  Game 2.  Is our D good right now, nope.  Can it be, hell yes.  Does our schemes work, 100%.  Can and will they be better, absolutely.

Our D and O are not expired (yet).  Yes we can adapt and change.  I see an average club that likely can improve by 1/4 or mid season.  We need to digest the changes to the our roster imo.

Just b/c you see it one way doesn't mean that's reality.  I respect your opinion but it's far from mine and that's ok.  Let's leave it there.  I don't appreciate the glasses shot but do enjoy the back and forth otherwise.

No I mean the defence that lost the Grey Cup in 2022, 2023 and 2024. The defence that caused us to slip to the crossover team in 2025 and being eliminated in the 1st round.

It has nothing to do with the last 3 games. Look up systemic in the dictionary. How many games did we win against the Riders and Stamps in 2025. Being eastern teams was easier last year. You have to be able to beat teams in the west.

I'll tell you. We lost 7 of 9 games to the west division and only won 2 games against the Lions. In one of those games Masoli was the starting QB.

Quote from: blueraid on June 15, 2026, 04:40:48 PMNeed to change things up and get back to basics ...basics being tackling 101...The last game was particularly bad

hard to argue with that, physicality an issue to be sure, others have pointed that out

Quote from: Blue In BC on June 15, 2026, 05:47:32 PMNo I mean the defence that lost the Grey Cup in 2022, 2023 and 2024. The defence that caused us to slip to crossover team in 2025 and being eliminated in the 1st round.

can't win em all, D got us to the big show, you mean the D that allowed some of the least points ever that one year,  you mean the D where we were not scored on for a long period of time, easy to point out the few bad games in a sea of success, not trending in the right direction but our defensive coaches and schemes are proven, reliable and very good.  Their record speaks for themselves.  Our peak on D has passed yes but lets not discount the past success nor write off the chance for it to return.  The foundation is there, time to rebuild a few rooms.

The narrative is the same as it was pre- mini dynasty for some, hyper focused on the cup drought.  Forest through the trees.

Quote from: Blueforlife on June 15, 2026, 05:51:01 PMhard to argue with that, physicality an issue to be sure, others have pointed that outcan't win em all, D got us to the big show, you mean the D that allowed some of the least points ever that one year,  you mean the D where we were not scored on for a long period of time, easy to point out the few bad games in a sea of success, not trending in the right direction but our defensive coaches and schemes are proven, reliable and very good.  Their record speaks for themselves.  Our peak on D has passed yes but lets not discount the past success nor write off the chance for it to return.  The foundation is there, time to rebuild a few rooms.

I agree with Sir Blue and Gold and others. You don't know what you are talking about. You always in defend and wait mode. Are you not seeing what other posters are telling you?

Look at the poll. You're going to feel you're being picked on and that is just not true.  Our defence got worse when we didn't re-sign Alexander or Bighill. While that was necessary due to age, injury history and SMS, we have not replaced those spots very well.

That should have been done in TC. It wasn't.

During 2025 ( and earlier ) the conversations were about lack of pressure and soft coverage in the secondary.  Sure the defence will improve during the course of this season but to what level is unknown.  You might be the only one feeling a need to justify our defensive performances.

I don't know what else we can tell you.

Quote from: Blue In BC on June 15, 2026, 05:58:05 PMI agree with Sir Blue and Gold and others. You don't know what you are talking about. You always in defend and wait mode. Are you not seeing what other posters are telling you?

Look at the poll. You're going to feel you're being picked on and that is just not true.  Our defence got worse when we didn't re-sign Alexander or Bighill. While that was necessary due to age, injury history and SMS, we have not replaced those spots very well.

That should have been done in TC. It wasn't.

I don't know what else we can tell you.

That is not a fair take on what or how I post here.  I provide my opinion on the team, league, players, management in a variety of ways, good bad and ugly and often will not follow the herd.  Yes I'm patient, that's allowed.  Who supported Hall, MOS and management before our epic cup run, right I did and many others and I tip my hat to them.  We were patient when many wanted to blow up the team.  Patience paid off.  I think it will again.  I'm allowed to be positive.  The poll is a take on some opinions, it's not facts or right just a summary of opinions.  I don't agree with those that have said that Younger's D has always been bad.  That is simply not supported with the success the team has had on D.  I believe it's an emotional based response to a D that struggled two game in row after laying an egg in the playoffs.  Eggs happen.

Yes I'll defend my position and the club as needed when I want to make a point.  That's what we all do.  There are some on here that remain positive when things go bad.  Some panic when we have a bad game, others get too high when we on a streak, that's just how it is.  There is room for all of us on here.  I have stated my opinion on the state of the club, my opinion on Hall, Younger, etc and it's just take.  Not right or wrong.  Nobody can claim were certainty they know more than someone else and I don't see any value or reason joining in and saying one doesn't know what they are taking about.  I value both of your opinions and knowledge you share.  Just become someone doesn't agree with you doesn't mean they are wrong.  The truth is likely and often in the middle of two polarized view points.

It's not about being picked on, it's about sharing one point and contributing to the forum.  It's about allowing space for that to happen.  It's about allowing a good debate to occur.  These latest exchanges have been mostly very positive with a health of information being share.  That's what I'm here for.  The personal stuff is just noise and best to be avoided.

Full stop don't agree about Alexander and Bighill.  We have been fine at LB for a long time.  Alexander was done full stop and I did like him but not signing him was 100% the right decision.  Those two decisions have little to do with our past issues or current team dynamic.  Now this season, we should have had a better plan at safety.  Injuries forced our hand a bit but signing a safety would be something I support as I mentioned before.  I was surprised at your take here.  Perhaps I'm missing your point.  Clarify it please.

No need to paint with with the same brush every time (posting style).  You have done that numerous times in the past and it's not true.  The variety of posting styles, knowledge, view points on here is something that makes this place special.  We all have a voice and if we didn't debate, argue and differ in how we post, this place wouldn't be very informative and lot less fun.

I haven't just posted that we wait.  I see an opportunity to bring in a S, corner and maybe receiver.  But I would wait a little on the last two.  I would be shopping hard for a FS that has experience and is cheap.  I have said how the D have to evolve and learn how to deploy our new faces.  I am cautiously optimistic about this season.  I am not also very worried after 2 games and don't think that means very much for what we might see.

Quote from: Blueforlife on June 15, 2026, 06:18:49 PMThat is not a fair take on what or how I post here.  I provide my opinion on the team, league, players, management in a variety of ways, good bad and ugly and often will not follow the herd.  Yes I'm patient, that's allowed.  Who supported Hall, MOS and management before our epic cup run, right I did and many others and I tip my hat to them.  We were patient when many wanted to blow up the team.  Patience paid off.  I think it will again.  I'm allowed to be positive.  The poll is a take on some opinions, it's not facts or right just a summary of opinions.  I don't agree with those that have said that Younger's D has always been bad.  That is simply not supported with the success the team has had on D.  I believe it's an emotional based response to a D that struggled two game in row after laying an egg in the playoffs.  Eggs happen.

Yes I'll defend my position and the club as needed when I want to make a point.  That's what we all do.  There are some on here that remain positive when things go bad.  Some panic when we have a bad game, others get too high when we on a streak, that's just how it is.  There is room for all of us on here.  I have stated my opinion on the state of the club, my opinion on Hall, Younger, etc and it's just take.  Not right or wrong.  Nobody can claim were certainty they know more than someone else and I don't see any value or reason joining in and saying one doesn't know what they are taking about.  I value both of your opinions and knowledge you share.  Just become someone doesn't agree with you doesn't mean they are wrong.  The truth is likely and often in the middle of two polarized view points.

It's not about being picked on, it's about sharing one point and contributing to the forum.

Full stop don't agree about Alexander and Bighill.  We have been fine at LB for a long time.  Alexander was done full stop and I did like him but no signing him was 100% the right decision.  Those two decisions have little to do with our past issues or current team dynamic.  Now this season, we should have had a better plan at safety.  Injuries forced our hand a bit but signing a safety would be something I support as I mentioned before.

No need to paint with with the same brush every time (posting style).  You have done that numerous times in the past and it's not true.  The variety of posting styles, knowledge, view point on here is something that makes this place special.  We all have a voice and if we didn't debate, argue and differ in how we post, this place wouldn't be very informative and lot less fun.

Opinions need to be based on fact even when trying to be positive. Yes, Alexander and Bighill needed to be replaced an once again we have not solidified either position.

In 2025 we started with Parker at safety and then Allen and then a rotation of several players including Kelly. This year we've moved every LB to a new role. So far that's a fail. I don't remember anyone in favour of Kramdi at safety.

We don't seem to have an alternative at the moment but that's still a reality. You suggested bringing in a safety and a CB. I reminded you the time to do that if before TC. I don't know how many DB's we looked at in tryout camps or during TC.  It's not even clear whether Allen would have made the roster if he didn't get injured. Regardless bringing in new players during the season means time on the PR and not usually very successful making the AR unless of injury.

Quote from: Blue In BC on June 15, 2026, 06:25:38 PMOpinions need to be based on fact even when trying to be positive. Yes, Alexander and Bighill needed to be replaced an once again we have not solidified either position.

In 2025 we started with Parker at safety and then Allen and then a rotation of several players including Kelly. This year we've moved every LB to a new role. So far that's a fail. I don't remember anyone in favour of Kramdi at safety.

We don't seem to have an alternative at the moment but that's still a reality.

Opinion are based on ones take.  We all try to be factual.  None of us ever achieve that all the time.  There are strong facts that backup Hall's/Younger's/Bombers success on D for a very long time.  There are also facts that point to some bumps along the road in that success.

Agree those names needed to be gone.  Yes Parker at safety didn't work, Allen was ok but wasn't ready.  Kelly isn't the answer.  We can agree that we haven't found a safety.  I have said before the season started that Kramdi wouldn't be at safety.  I thought we could figure that out with someone else.  That didn't happen and I called for a new safety to be brought in.  I believe our issues at safety have one of the biggest thorns in our side for a bit.  Hopefully we can figure that out.  We are in complete agreement on that one. 

Will we will bring a S in? Can Kramdi learn the craft? Can Allen get healthy and be an option? Is there another player on the roster we can try?  Will be try two safeties again? Can we rotate at S?

What has Jordan Younger won as a coach?

What's his record over three years? What about his playoff record? A fraction above average?

Quote from: Blueforlife on June 15, 2026, 06:32:47 PMOpinion are based on ones take.  We all try to be factual.  None of us ever achieve that all the time.  There are strong facts that backup Hall's/Younger's/Bombers success on D for a very long time.  There are also facts that point to some bumps along the road in that success.

Agree those names needed to be gone.  Yes Parker at safety didn't work, Allen was ok but wasn't ready.  Kelly isn't the answer.  We can agree that we haven't found a safety.  I have said before the season started that Kramdi wouldn't be at safety.  I thought we could figure that out with someone else.  That didn't happen and I called for a new safety to be brought in.  I believe our issues at safety have one of the biggest thorns in our side for a bit.  Hopefully we can figure that out.  We are in complete agreement on that one. 

Will we will bring a S in? Can Kramdi learn the craft? Can Allen get healthy and be an option? Is there another player on the roster we can try?  Will be try two safeties again? Can we rotate at S?

I'm not sure what we'll do at safety. Even if we replace Kramdi then Kramdi replaces Griffin and so on down the line. It's a domino effect.

I think Ball was getting a lot of reps in TC but is injured now. When or if he can return is unknown. Stuart did in pre season as well. Allen might be the future but he only had a small sample size last year. The team seemed to decide moving him out from that spot before TC. Can't really know whether he was being considered at safety, CB or as a DI.

Each of those potentially impacted the ratio and other moves. Again, no idea whether he'll be able to return or when or what they decide at that point.

I think the 1st option is to bring back someone that was here in TC. If they rejected a PR spot that creates a complication. Like I said, adding a rookie that wasn't here in TC is a different kind of issue.

The Bombers didn't address the safety position in the off season. Kramdi can play safety but is more effective as a SLB. Wilson and Jones need to which positions. Wilson is not a MLB.

Quote from: Pigskin on June 15, 2026, 06:54:15 PMThe Bombers didn't address the safety position in the off season. Kramdi can play safety but is more effective as a SLB. Wilson and Jones need to which positions. Wilson is not a MLB.

I suppose that if they find a solution at safety, they move Kramdi back to SAM. In theory that would mean Griffin takes over the role of Woodbey in rotation but we lose him as a full time player on defence.

Finding a Canadian at safety is less likely so the ripple effect with Griffin might mean dropping the extra DL to do that.

Yes, switch K. Wilson and Jones back to roles in 2025. Still lacking but still a preferable choice at the moment.

Quote from: Pigskin on June 15, 2026, 06:54:15 PMThe Bombers didn't address the safety position in the off season. Kramdi can play safety but is more effective as a SLB. Wilson and Jones need to which positions. Wilson is not a MLB.

Agreed and also, no one, other than Brandon Alexander, who himself was more of a Richie Hall guy than a Jordan Younger guy, has been successful at safety. No one.

Saw some griping about Winnipeg's defence online after the loss to Hamilton and it is true that the Bombers gave up a bunch of chunk plays to Hamilton through the air, and 124 rushing yards to Ticats' running back Larry Rountree III. Heck, even Bo Levi Mitchell ripped off a 15-yard run at one point.

"That's not a championship defence."

Quote from: Blue In BC on June 15, 2026, 06:49:57 PMI'm not sure what we'll do at safety. Even if we replace Kramdi then Kramdi replaces Griffin and so on down the line. It's a domino effect.

I think Ball was getting a lot of reps in TC but is injured now. When or if he can return is unknown. Stuart did in pre season as well. Allen might be the future but he only had a small sample size last year. The team seemed to decide moving him out from that spot before TC. Can't really know whether he was being considered at safety, CB or as a DI.

Each of those potentially impacted the ratio and other moves. Again, no idea whether he'll be able to return or when or what they decide at that point.

I think the 1st option is to bring back someone that was here in TC. If they rejected a PR spot that creates a complication. Like I said, adding a rookie that wasn't here in TC is a different kind of issue.

I like Ball but has he played safety? Stuart will need much seasoning imo? Any update on Allen's injury?

Quote from: Blue In BC on June 15, 2026, 07:00:04 PMI suppose that if they find a solution at safety, they move Kramdi back to SAM. In theory that would mean Griffin takes over the role of Woodbey in rotation but we lose him as a full time player on defence.

Finding a Canadian at safety is less likely so the ripple effect with Griffin might mean dropping the extra DL to do that.

Yes, switch K. Wilson and Jones back to roles in 2025. Still lacking but still a preferable choice at the moment.

I think this trio of LBs would be fine with rotation of Woodbey.  And I would sprinkle in the prospects.

I'm not sure Younger doesn't value sacks. Not based on the last game.

How many times did they blitz against Hamilton? I didn't count but watching, it seemed fairly frequent, and it didn't work. Same as when Bighill blitzed.

And how many plays were there three D linemen ? Again I didn't count, but not many.

Their offensive line, and whatever system they were using, worked and made our effort fail and in every way. Coaching and players.

But not because they didn't try to get pressure.

The actual reason is worse.

Quote from: markf on June 15, 2026, 07:28:51 PMI'm not sure Younger doesn't value sacks. Not based on the last game.

How many times did they blitz against Hamilton? I didn't count but watching, it seemed fairly frequent, and it didn't work. Same as when Bighill blitzed.

And how many plays were there three D linemen ? Again I didn't count, but not many.

Their offensive line, and whatever system they were using, worked and made our effort fail and in every way. Coaching and players.

But not because they didn't try to get pressure.

The actual reason is worse.

I think someone brought up the fact that he doesn't value sacks, completely false.  I didn't notice anything you have asked about enough to comment on but I would like to know as well.  Yes we didn't get home.  Bo was slinging nasty.

Quote from: Blueforlife on June 15, 2026, 07:21:21 PMI like Ball but has he played safety? Stuart will need much seasoning imo? Any update on Allen's injury?I think this trio of LBs would be fine with rotation of Woodbey.  And I would sprinkle in the prospects.

I'm not sure Ball saw looks at safety. I think it was more at DHB. However that suggests the ability to cover and some speed.

No idea what the injury status for Ball or Allen. Woodbey would help but it's not the trio but whether each is in the best role possible.

Just a thought, especially if the injured are not returning soon: Griffin is the same height and weight as K. Wilson or Jones. Same applies to Woodbey. It's been hard to tell exactly what his role has been when on the field. He seems faster than K. Wilson or Jones. The wouldn't have brought back JSK if that was a consideration earlier. Players are often listed as DB or LB and seem almost interchangable.


I wonder if they ever had any thought of him at either MLB or WIL and making one of the other 2 a DI if roster allows. Griffin is a good tackler, can cover and hits hard.

That would solve the problem of Kramdi moving back to safety if there is another option at safety.

The 1st practice next week might at least give updates on injury situation.

Quote from: Blue In BC on June 15, 2026, 08:06:20 PMI'm not sure Ball saw looks at safety. I think it was more at DHB. However that suggests the ability to cover and some speed.

No idea what the injury status for Ball or Allen. Woodbey would help but it's not the trio but whether each is in the best role possible.

Just a thought, especially if the injured are not returning soon: Griffin is the same height and weight as K. Wilson or Jones.

I wonder if they ever had any thought of him at either MLB or WIL and making one of the other 2 a DI if roster allows. Griffin is a good tackler, can cover and hits hard.

That would solve the problem of Kramdi moving back to safety if there is another option at safety.

The 1st practice next week might at least give updates on injury situation.

agree on Ball and Griffin, don't know enough about Griffin's skill set to know where he best fits other than I like what I see!  Do you remember if Ball could tackle well?

Many problems would be solved if Kramdi wasn't at safety, assuming his replacement is better.  I would allow a few games for our new safety to settle in even if it meant some pain in doing so.  Sometimes the best way to learn.  I would be very interested if Kramdi is ok at safety or if was pissed at the assignment.  He would likely never say.  Going point about the trio, which alignment is best, good point.  Would be interesting to know who on our team as played safety at any level at somepoint.

Quote from: Blue In BC on June 15, 2026, 08:06:20 PMI'm not sure Ball saw looks at safety. I think it was more at DHB. However that suggests the ability to cover and some speed.

No idea what the injury status for Ball or Allen. Woodbey would help but it's not the trio but whether each is in the best role possible.

Just a thought, especially if the injured are not returning soon: Griffin is the same height and weight as K. Wilson or Jones. Same applies to Woodbey. It's been hard to tell exactly what his role has been when on the field. He seems faster than K. Wilson or Jones. The wouldn't have brought back JSK if that was a consideration earlier. Players are often listed as DB or LB and seem almost interchangable.


I wonder if they ever had any thought of him at either MLB or WIL and making one of the other 2 a DI if roster allows. Griffin is a good tackler, can cover and hits hard.

That would solve the problem of Kramdi moving back to safety if there is another option at safety.

The 1st practice next week might at least give updates on injury situation.

I would have liked to see Cam Allen come back on when Woodsbey was injured. Go back to what was working last year.

Quote from: Blueforlife on June 15, 2026, 08:11:39 PMagree on Ball and Griffin, don't know enough about Griffin's skill set to know where he best fits other than I like what I see!  Do you remember if Ball could tackle well?

Many problems would be solved if Kramdi wasn't at safety, assuming his replacement is better.  I would allow a few games for our new safety to settle in even if it meant some pain in doing so.  Sometimes the best way to learn.  I would be very interested if Kramdi is ok at safety or if was pissed at the assignment.  He would likely never say.  Going point about the trio, which alignment is best, good point.  Would be interesting to know who on our team as played safety at any level at somepoint.

I think Ball could tackle but the ability to read the offence and to communicate to the rest of the secondary is almost more important. Ball was originally a receiver in college. That suggests an ability to read defences in order to get open. It also suggests he has good hands.

Stuart was playing CB in pre-season and was just a little late in his coverage. reports are that he has versatility to play most positions including SAM. he is inexperienced and we don't usually see a pure Canadian rookie starting.

Kramdi is a team player so I think he'll adjust to the role without complaint.

Imports don't play in college in a 5 man secondary generally, so none would have that specific experience in college. A safety needs decent speed and high football IQ. Knowing where to go within an assignment is important. It doesn't matter how fast you are if you make the wrong decisions. Day late and dollar short so to speak.

Quote from: Jesse on June 15, 2026, 08:22:28 PMI would have liked to see Cam Allen come back on when Woodsbey was injured. Go back to what was working last year.

Maybe. Like I said he had a small sample size of about 8 games and at times looked lost. I also mentioned a new safety means several other changes.

I thought adding 2 veteran players on defence was great. It still meant moving all 3 LB's and starting a rookie at CB and 2 rookies in the DL rotation. It will take time at best.

Here is another thought:

I don't think Nichols has lost his ability. He may have lost a bit of a step. We moved Alexander from DHB to safety. Same skill sets, High football IQ, communication skills and good tackler.

What I can't remember is who replaced him at DHB when we moved Alexander to safety. More than that we don't seem to have another DB to change to DHB.

We cut Lamont who played there in pre season so he's a possible choice. How he performed int TC I don't know. His release may have been due to lack of skill set, or just numbers.

Some of the rookies in TC would have been tested at DHB.  Did they all fail or was it a numbers game and deciding not accept a PR spot. Or is Texada also considered as the emergency replacement at both DHB and CB?

If the Bombers had of drafted Findlay at #15 last season, we would have  our Starting Safety.

Quote from: Pigskin on June 15, 2026, 09:14:05 PMIf the Bombers had of drafted Findlay at #15 last season, we would have our Starting Safety.

Yeah, we took Smith 1 pick before Findlay. Findlay is starting and Smith when healthy hasn't had a chance to start.

The career path for either is not clear or which will end up as the better player.

Findlay was getting a lot of reps last year and some as a starter. Both players also played well on ST's. On the surface at the time I was hoping for Findlay to be picked.

Our need last year was more at safety than LB and we'd already drafted Shay. Why we did that IDK. I can't even say we didn't make the right decision in the long run.

We would have has another starting Canadian though and that can never be a bad problem.

Quote from: Pigskin on June 15, 2026, 09:14:05 PMIf the Bombers had of drafted Findlay at #15 last season, we would have been our Starting Safety.

Easy to say that now.  The draft is a cr@p shoot.  Would he have developed here the same, likely not.  All that said, he looked ok last year.

Quote from: Blueforlife on June 15, 2026, 09:36:18 PMEasy to say that now.  The draft is a cr@p shoot.  Would he have developed here the same, likely not.  All that said, he looked ok last year.

While that's true, we did have a need at safety and not at LB. He would have been a ratio breaker if he played well even if as a 6th DB or eventual starter.

How he did in any interviews, there may have been an issue. Findlay is from North Vancouver and his father or was it his grandfather that played for the Lions? He may not have been willing to go to Winnipeg as his 1st choice and that could have flipped the Bombers to Smith.

Who's to say Findlay would be any better in Younger's system than anyone else? And it's hard for draft picks to get on the field and play with the way our coaching staff approaches things. Even Oliveira had to wait a full season. Jake Kelly was drafted in 2023 and is only now getting reps.

Why haven't we developed the guy we drafted ahead of Findlay, Jaylen Smith as a safety. very good speed, physical and can tackle. He has all the tools to be an impact national

Quote from: Sir Blue and Gold on June 15, 2026, 11:30:35 PMWho's to say Findlay would be any better in Younger's system than anyone else? And it's hard for draft picks to get on the field and play with the way our coaching staff approaches things. Even Oliveira had to wait a full season. Jake Kelly was drafted in 2023 and is only now getting reps.

I get what you're saying and agree for the most part, but Brady missed his rookie season due to injury. He was on the field as soon as he was healthy.

Quote from: Jesse on June 15, 2026, 11:55:38 PMI get what you're saying and agree for the most part, but Brady missed his rookie season due to injury. He was on the field as soon as he was healthy.

True. Probably an unfair example but he got hurt playing special teams and if you follow our track record he likely would have stayed in that role for the year. It's not necessary the wrong move but it does take O'Shea, generally speaking, a long time to play draft picks on offense or defense in general.

Quote from: Sir Blue and Gold on June 15, 2026, 07:01:11 PMAgreed and also, no one, other than Brandon Alexander, who himself was more of a Richie Hall guy than a Jordan Younger guy, has been successful at safety. No one.

That's true. BA was the only safety we've had since Loffler that was an impact player back there, all others have been a step behind/trying to figure it out/invisible.

Quote from: Sir Blue and Gold on June 15, 2026, 11:30:35 PMWho's to say Findlay would be any better in Younger's system than anyone else? And it's hard for draft picks to get on the field and play with the way our coaching staff approaches things. Even Oliveira had to wait a full season. Jake Kelly was drafted in 2023 and is only now getting reps.

There's truth to what you are saying, but the other part of the equation is that our drafting has often not been very good in terms of player quality.

When players showed they could play, they were given an opportunity. Guy like Wallace was starting into his second year. Liam Dobson also started very quickly.

Going through our recent draft picks,  I don't think Jake Kelly is good enough to play, and Anthony Bennet definitely wasn't. Clercius  played as a rookie, and is a borderline talent in terms of being a starter. Chris-Ike I think is played to a level commensurate with his talent, ie part time as an extra blocker and on STs. Shay and Smith have done little so far to show they deserve more playing time, although that could change as the season progresses.
I'm struggling to think of any draft picks Osh held back from playing on their ELC, who went on to have a major impact elsewhere.
Don't have the energy to go through the Americans, but I know Pokie Wilson and Vaval both started for us as raw rookies, with essentially no pro experience. As did Scheon.
No question Osh likes his vets, most coaches do. But IMO his major problem is hanging on to them a little after their best before date, out of loyalty.
I think he's willing to give young players a chance to play if they show him they are ready.