Good
- WIN
- 3rd place in the west
- Brady still grinding out yards despite every Redblack looking for him every play
- Vaval and Allen saving the day
- Sergio doing his part
Bad
- Dru Brown with 400 yards passing
- OL giving up fast pressure
- Wheatie injury
- Can't hope for this process and result against any other team
Ugly
- Streveler's cosplaying as a QB
- Hogan's game plan
Good news is we maintained our advantage for 3rd place in the West. Also defeating Ottawa pushes them further away from the play offs. Toronto needs to win 2 more games than us to have a chance to finish 3rd.
Bad news is how we look on the injury front with several injuries. One serious and the others TBD.
Good:
Sergio - made all kicks
Vaval - Good returns; runback for TD
Kramdi - Good coverages
Corcoran - Top Bomber receiver 1 for 24 yds. (LOL)
Willie J - 2 knockdowns and 1 sack
Hall - 2 interceptions
Bad:
Strevler - 3 for 54 yds. passing (one should really
have been a running play)
- Should have thrown a pass to Demski so
his 83 game streak could keep going
- 54 yds passing to Brown's 400+
Ugly: - THE WHOLE GAME!
Perhaps an underrated play by Trey Vaval came with 2½ mintues left in the 3rd quarter.
There was a punt that came down near the sideline which Vaval charged and fielded. Unfortunately, his momentum took him out of bounds for no return but it probably saved a few yards had the ball bounced. Many returners probably let the ball bounce.
By fielding the kick, Vaval triggered a 'no yards' penalty for a free 15 yards.
Does anyone know what play Winnipeg is calling on first down.
Quote from: Sergio105 on September 20, 2025, 10:30:41 PMGood:
Sergio - made all kicks
Vaval - Good returns; runback for TD
Kramdi - Good coverages
Corcoran - Top Bomber receiver 1 for 24 yds. (LOL)
Willie J - 2 knockdowns and 1 sack
Hall - 2 interceptions
Bad:
Strevler - 3 for 54 yds. passing (one should really
have been a running play)
- Should have thrown a pass to Demski so
his 83 game streak could keep going
- 54 yds passing to Brown's 400+
Ugly: - THE WHOLE GAME!
Allen with 2 Ints.
My bad...Allen is who I meant!
Quote from: Jesse on September 20, 2025, 10:05:52 PMGood
- WIN
- 3rd place in the west
- Brady still grinding out yards despite every Redblack looking for him every play
- Vaval and Allen saving the day
- Sergio doing his part
Bad
- Dru Brown with 400 yards passing
- OL giving up fast pressure
- Wheatie injury
- Can't hope for this process and result against any other team
Ugly
- Streveler's cosplaying as a QB
- Hogan's game plan
Question:
Did Hogan's game plan result in Strevelers play?
or
Did Streveler's play result in Hogan's game plan?
IF: MOS had subbed in Wilson, does Hogan's game plan lood 100% different?
Question 2: Was it MOS or Hogan that kept Streveler in the game?
If, as Milt suggested, the team can't trust Streveler to throw the ball then they have to replace him.
UGLY
Nic Demski's catching streak ending.
Quote from: Jesse on September 20, 2025, 10:05:52 PMGood
- WIN
- 3rd place in the west
- Brady still grinding out yards despite every Redblack looking for him every play
- Vaval and Allen saving the day
- Sergio doing his part
Bad
- Dru Brown with 400 yards passing
- OL giving up fast pressure
- Wheatie injury
- Can't hope for this process and result against any other team
Ugly
,
- Streveler's cosplaying as a QB
- Hogan's game plan
agree on all, if we are going to focus on running the ball at least show some creativity,
Add to ugly
Chances of Terry Wilson ever getting to throw a ball during a game. the question was asked to OShea whats it going to take to see Wilson in a game, its become obvious that the answer is " a new |Coach"
Quote from: Jesse on September 20, 2025, 10:05:52 PMGood
- WIN
- 3rd place in the west
- Brady still grinding out yards despite every Redblack looking for him every play
- Vaval and Allen saving the day
- Sergio doing his part
Bad
- Dru Brown with 400 yards passing
- OL giving up fast pressure
- Wheatie injury
- Can't hope for this process and result against any other team
Ugly
- Streveler's cosplaying as a QB
- Hogan's game plan
I would like to add a category - SUPER UGLY
And the winner hands down is Streveler!
Quote from: theaardvark on September 20, 2025, 10:53:49 PMQuestion:
Did Hogan's game plan result in Strevelers play?
or
Did Streveler's play result in Hogan's game plan?
IF: MOS had subbed in Wilson, does Hogan's game plan lood 100% different?
Question 2: Was it MOS or Hogan that kept Streveler in the game?
Obviously it's not an either or, we've seen Hogan's struggles all year and we've seen Streveler's limitations for much longer.
But Strev seems to perform worse with each appearance this year. We're not getting him easy completions which is on Hogan. Strev's INT was an example of him locking into his receiver and not seeing the extra defender.
If either MOS or Hogan wanted to put in Wilson, I think the change would have happened. Again, Terry is an interception machine in practice with zero pressure. What is he going to do in live action?
Quote from: Jesse on September 20, 2025, 11:29:15 PMObviously it's not an either or, we've seen Hogan's struggles all year and we've seen Streveler's limitations for much longer.
But Strev seems to perform worse with each appearance this year. We're not getting him easy completions which is on Hogan. Strev's INT was an example of him locking into his receiver and not seeing the extra defender.
If either MOS or Hogan wanted to put in Wilson, I think the change would have happened. Again, Terry is an interception machine in practice with zero pressure. What is he going to do in live action?
then why is he on the roster? answer OShea " he works hard"
Good
Our QB led us to victory.
Vaval is a beauty. What a return.
Brady so consistently pounds it.
Bad
Couldn't figure out a way to get Demski a pass.
Was it just me or did Lapo seem negative on the Bombers?
Too many passing yards. Do I need to say by who? Secondary better but still gives up too much.
Ugly
Wheatfall hit. Clean but felt bad for the guy. Hope he's back soon.
Quote from: Pete on September 20, 2025, 11:35:08 PMthen why is he on the roster
Ideally next year he isn't (unless as a SY specialist which he's very good at).
Quote from: Ducky on September 20, 2025, 11:09:17 PMIf, as Milt suggested, the team can't trust Streveler to throw the ball then they have to replace him.
UGLY
Nic Demski's catching streak ending.
Bingo. His days as a #2 Qb are ending after this season. I have never seen a CFL game when a Qb threw less than 10 passes, and when your OC has to game plan like that for fear of turning the ball over, which he did throw a pick in only 7 pass attempts, yeesh, you know your days are numbered
Good-Castilio perfect on the night
-Olivera running hard even when everyone knew the ball was going to him
-Defense getting some turnovers
-Vaval excellent returning
Bad- Streveler
-game plan although maybe that was not so bad to keep Streveler from throwing INT's
-Redblacks field goal kicking
Ugly- there are ugly wins but this was ex wife ugly
Quote from: Jesse on September 20, 2025, 11:29:15 PMObviously it's not an either or, we've seen Hogan's struggles all year and we've seen Streveler's limitations for much longer.
But Strev seems to perform worse with each appearance this year. We're not getting him easy completions which is on Hogan. Strev's INT was an example of him locking into his receiver and not seeing the extra defender.
If either MOS or Hogan wanted to put in Wilson, I think the change would have happened. Again, Terry is an interception machine in practice with zero pressure. What is he going to do in live action?
If that is accurate, shame on WFC for keeping him.
Good
D
Run game
Vaval
Allen
Willie
Bad
Early D
Ugly
Strev throwing
Play calling at times
Bad
Allen in the first 45% of the game, gave up every single pass his way, many deep
Good
Allen in the last 55% of the game, may have been the difference between winning and losing
Weird that
Quote from: Jesse on September 20, 2025, 10:05:52 PMGood
- Sergio doing his part
I think this is critical. Sergio made every kick, which was like 4, 5 or 6? Very important bounceback/confidence-building game for him. He's critical to our success.
Get those maracas warmed up!
Quote from: Pete on September 20, 2025, 11:09:50 PMChances of Terry Wilson ever getting to throw a ball during a game. the question was asked to OShea whats it going to take to see Wilson in a game, its become obvious that the answer is " a new |Coach"
We put in Wilson in the '24 GC for 2 whole series, including 2 EZ shots (close, but no cigar). We could have put Dolegala in (or was it Patterson? can't keep track of all these crap green QBs). But we put in Wilson.
He should have put a touch more air on one of those GC passes and it was a sure TD. He actually looked ok and I think he should have stayed in when Zach threw the first cut-finger INT.
Funny how life gives you these brief chances at greatness and you're like 1 foot of ball air away from being a hero and having a future in the CFL, vs being a nobody and quietly retiring a couple of years later.
One of the main jobs of a coach is to put his players in the position of having the best chance to succeed. Prior to that grey cup situation Wilson had very little game opportunities/experience and were repeating that this year
Quote from: TecnoGenius on September 21, 2025, 03:32:13 AMBad
Allen in the first 45% of the game, gave up every single pass his way, many deep
Good
Allen in the last 55% of the game, may have been the difference between winning and losing
Weird that
Good sign he bounced back and was more good than bad
I would have sprinkled in Wilson last few weeks.
The craziest offensive game plan in CFL history worked, so in O'Shea's eyes everything is hunky-dory and no change is needed or will be considered at QB. The fact the opponent blew every chance of scoring points won't be taken into consideration, it will be described as a hard fought victory. Bombers played bad, but there are no words to describe how awful the RedBlacks responded. I can't imagine how Dru Brown explains what happened.
Quote from: Pete on September 21, 2025, 04:14:50 AMOne of the main jobs of a coach is to put his players in the position of having the best chance to succeed. Prior to that grey cup situation Wilson had very little game opportunities/experience and were repeating that this year
Like Kelly before he lit up the '22 GC?
Many are thrust in at inopportune or strange or "big" moments. Sink or swim.
Good:
The Win
Bad:
Strev
Ugly:
It was the ugliest win I've ever seen and I've been watching since the '60's.
Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on September 21, 2025, 05:28:45 AMThe craziest offensive game plan in CFL history worked, so in O'Shea's eyes everything is hunky-dory and no change is needed or will be considered at QB. The fact the opponent blew every chance of scoring points won't be taken into consideration, it will be described as a hard fought victory. Bombers played bad, but there are no words to describe how awful the RedBlacks responded. I can't imagine how Dru Brown explains what happened.
dyce should be show the door first thing tomorrow morning
Ugly: Ottawa in our end of the field, down 2 scores, 3rd and 2, with almost 4 minutes left. They go for a deep shot which, not surprisingly, fails. That was a thank you very much Ottawa from Bomber fans. It wasn't desperation time yet. Furthermore, the Redblacks seemed to give up after that even though they still had a chance. Very disturbing if your a Redblacks fan.
Quote from: The Zipp on September 21, 2025, 04:00:50 PMdyce should be show the door first thing tomorrow morning
Heading into a bye week, it's a possibility with Rick Campbell waiting in the wings.
Quote from: bomb squad on September 21, 2025, 06:14:51 PMUgly: Ottawa in our end of the field, down 2 scores, 3rd and 2, with almost 4 minutes left. They go for a deep shot which, not surprisingly, fails. That was a thank you very much Ottawa from Bomber fans. It wasn't desperation time yet. Furthermore, the Redblacks seemed to give up after that even though they still had a chance. Very disturbing if your a Redblacks fan.
And they had their RB wide open for 5 yards.
Quote from: bomb squad on September 21, 2025, 06:14:51 PMUgly: Ottawa in our end of the field, down 2 scores, 3rd and 2, with almost 4 minutes left. They go for a deep shot which, not surprisingly, fails. That was a thank you very much Ottawa from Bomber fans. It wasn't desperation time yet. Furthermore, the Redblacks seemed to give up after that even though they still had a chance. Very disturbing if your a Redblacks fan.
I get the play, I get the idea.
No, not desperation time, but getting a full 2 yards on the ground against a team that is ready for you is tough. Going for the surprise factor in the endzone shot with a QB that has a hot hand to Gino Lewis makes sense.
Not sure who defended Lewis on that pass, but I'd guess Allen? Whoever it was, that was a game saver.
The good. 2 points. The bad. Nothing. The ugly . Hit on wheatfall And Ottawa player celebrating .wheatfall is a very good receiver not used very much..
Quote from: buckzumhoff on September 21, 2025, 08:40:44 PMThe good. 2 points. The bad. Nothing. The ugly . Hit on wheatfall And Ottawa player celebrating .wheatfall is a very good receiver not used very much..
Agree. Yes, it was a big hit. But, once you see the player is injured, put the brakes on the celebration.
Quote from: theaardvark on September 21, 2025, 08:25:26 PMI get the play, I get the idea.
No, not desperation time, but getting a full 2 yards on the ground against a team that is ready for you is tough. Going for the surprise factor in the endzone shot with a QB that has a hot hand to Gino Lewis makes sense.
Not sure who defended Lewis on that pass, but I'd guess Allen? Whoever it was, that was a game saver.
I get it. Just think there's a weak case for that in this situation. Coach smart. Don't hurt your team. Maas and Dinwiddie like to play on the edge of bold and smart and it seems to work for them, for the most part. But I don't believe they would have made this call.
Quote from: theaardvark on September 21, 2025, 08:25:26 PMI get the play, I get the idea.
No, not desperation time, but getting a full 2 yards on the ground against a team that is ready for you is tough. Going for the surprise factor in the endzone shot with a QB that has a hot hand to Gino Lewis makes sense.
Not sure who defended Lewis on that pass, but I'd guess Allen? Whoever it was, that was a game saver.
Vaval
Quote from: bunker on September 21, 2025, 09:08:42 PMVaval
So, Vaval won the game for us... in more ways than one... Streveler owes him a nice dinner.
Quote from: buckzumhoff on September 21, 2025, 08:40:44 PMThe good. 2 points. The bad. Nothing. The ugly . Hit on wheatfall And Ottawa player celebrating .wheatfall is a very good receiver not used very much..
Comes back to using
excessive force on a defenceless receiver, poor Wheatfall just trying to hang onto the ball! Reel it back, BA, Loffler, Demond Washington on Fred Stamps, all received penalties or extra punishment for nearly killing receivers with perfectly clean body shots.
Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on September 21, 2025, 11:20:38 PMLoffler, Demond Washington on Fred Stamps, all received penalties or extra punishment for nearly killing receivers with perfectly clean body shots.
This is true. Loffler is the first one they started cracking down on. So many completely bogus flags on him
when the protection rules didn't even exist, on hits that were half as hard as the Wheatie one.
The league really seems to have taken a step back on the player/QB protection this season. And I struggle to understand it.
Remember Loffler hitting Begelton in the air, not even hard, and he spins around and writhes and he got flagged? Ya, there would be no flag for that this season.
Quote from: bomb squad on September 21, 2025, 08:59:36 PMI get it. Just think there's a weak case for that in this situation. Coach smart. Don't hurt your team. Maas and Dinwiddie like to play on the edge of bold and smart and it seems to work for them, for the most part. But I don't believe they would have made this call.
'23 GC, 3rd & 3 Maas calls a ~20Y wide-out pass (so like ~30Y total distance) to Mack(?) to basically seal the game (next pass was Philpot TD, but they had 3 shots and plenty of time).
Dickenson The Greater also would do a deep on 3rd & 2.
Sometimes you need to be BOLD. You often do catch teams off guard. And if you hit it, it means a likely win. Whereas if you just go for the 3 yard pass for 1st down, you have a good chance of incompletion, and even if you hit it it hasn't bought you much.
I think the best approach is balance. Keep the D guessing. Mix it up with 33% run, 33% deep, 33% short (tweak a bit as desired). If you're always deep (as Dickenson has been doing last few years) then Ds will blanket cover. If you're always run (us), teams will stuff the box.
Our problem in the last 2.5 seasons is we're always short-pass in this situation. Dumb curls and such. So every team just cheats up for the INT or easy pass breakup. This limitation has cost us series, games, and cups.
Quote from: TecnoGenius on September 22, 2025, 04:09:19 AM'23 GC, 3rd & 3 Maas calls a ~20Y wide-out pass (so like ~30Y total distance) to Mack(?) to basically seal the game (next pass was Philpot TD, but they had 3 shots and plenty of time).
Dickenson The Greater also would do a deep on 3rd & 2.
Sometimes you need to be BOLD. You often do catch teams off guard. And if you hit it, it means a likely win. Whereas if you just go for the 3 yard pass for 1st down, you have a good chance of incompletion, and even if you hit it it hasn't bought you much.
I think the best approach is balance. Keep the D guessing. Mix it up with 33% run, 33% deep, 33% short (tweak a bit as desired). If you're always deep (as Dickenson has been doing last few years) then Ds will blanket cover. If you're always run (us), teams will stuff the box.
Our problem in the last 2.5 seasons is we're always short-pass in this situation. Dumb curls and such. So every team just cheats up for the INT or easy pass breakup. This limitation has cost us series, games, and cups.
I knew you would bring that one up. Sorry, not nearly the same situation. There it made sense. Appreciate your input though. By the way, it was 3rd and 5.
Quote from: bomb squad on September 22, 2025, 05:06:59 AMI knew you would bring that one up. Sorry, not nearly the same situation. There it made sense. Appreciate your input though. By the way, it was 3rd and 5.
Hehe, and I knew someone would know I'd bring that up. :D
It was a somewhat similar situation, surely you'd grant that. Ok, OTT didn't only have 45s left. But it's the same "go longer than we need to for a lower-percentage pass" thing that WFC would never in a million years do (unless they read my BOLD thread).
And the MTL situation was 3rd & 5 or the OTT situation? My MTL memory was 2nd & 20, Cody scrambles for 17 after Willie "slips", 3rd & 3 total game-winning situation for WPG and Parker looks like final-season Randle flailing around an unexpected man-on-man 50/50 20ish yarder to Mack (might have been Spieker?). The whole situation is burned in my brain like a slow-mo car crash that kills my dog.
Quote from: bomb squad on September 22, 2025, 05:06:59 AMI knew you would bring that one up. Sorry, not nearly the same situation. There it made sense. Appreciate your input though. By the way, it was 3rd and 5.
Oh ya, and Dickenson The Greater HAS called even dumber low-percentage plays or dumb off-the-line runs instead of sneaks MANY times in the last few seasons -- with like 90% failure rate. (Less so this year since he has a good team again.)
Point being, Dyce isn't the only one. And I fully agree it was the wrong call, but I do like the BOLD.
Ugly: Demski's reception streak ending.
This offense absolutely reeks.
Quote from: TecnoGenius on September 22, 2025, 04:04:03 AMThis is true. Loffler is the first one they started cracking down on. So many completely bogus flags on him when the protection rules didn't even exist, on hits that were half as hard as the Wheatie one.
The league really seems to have taken a step back on the player/QB protection this season. And I struggle to understand it.
Remember Loffler hitting Begelton in the air, not even hard, and he spins around and writhes and he got flagged? Ya, there would be no flag for that this season.
IIRC the Loffler hit was on what was already going to be an incomplete pass. Wheatfall was more than likely going to complete his catch when hit. We see receivers get separated from the ball by a defender. Unfortunately this was one of those plays.
I don't think the Loffler play falls into the same category but would like to see the video again to compare.
Quote from: Blue In BC on September 22, 2025, 02:14:35 PMI don't think the Loffler play falls into the same category but would like to see the video again to compare.
Here ya go:
Arceneaux got rocked.
Quote from: blue_gold_84 on September 22, 2025, 02:22:37 PMHere ya go:
Arceneaux got rocked.
That wasn't the only time, Loffler knocked the hell out of receivers throughout his career, but he was only penalized for clean body shots in later years as he was never a head-hunter. BA was flagged a few times for doing the same but adjusted his game to avoid getting penalized for using excessive force. Body can't take those impacts, each one caused a concussion whether head is hit or not.
Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on September 22, 2025, 07:06:07 PMThat wasn't the only time, Loffler knocked the hell out of receivers throughout his career...
I couldn't find a video where he hit Begelton, but this one seemed like a close comparable. Loffler was a stud in his prime and made some hellacious hits in blue and gold.
Quote from: blue_gold_84 on September 22, 2025, 02:22:37 PMHere ya go:
Arceneaux got rocked.
Thanks for posting that clip, some of my favourite players from that era, it's crazy but I have fonder memories of the pre-Zach era when they were still in chase mode.
Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on September 22, 2025, 07:41:28 PMThanks for posting that clip, some of my favourite players from that era, it's crazy but I have fonder memories of the pre-Zach era when they were still in chase mode.
I was never sure what Loffler was supposed to do. It was a violent hit and the receiver was still looking up. That's different than the hit this week.
Wheatfall essentially caught the ball and was tucking it away when he was hit violently on the upper body. There was a slightly longer ( 1/2 second ? ) time than on the Loffler hit.
Again, what is the DB supposed to do, allow the receiver to complete tucking the ball? If the defender is another 1/2 second or 1 step away it's a completed pass. We some something similar when Mitchell made some receptions and then got hit recently.
I'm all for protecting the players and don't know what exactly can be done to eliminate fast and hard hits.
Quote from: Blue In BC on September 22, 2025, 08:24:41 PMI was never sure what Loffler was supposed to do. It was a violent hit and the receiver was still looking up. That's different than the hit this week.
Wheatfall essentially caught the ball and was tucking it away when he was hit violently on the upper body. There was a slightly longer ( 1/2 second ? ) time than on the Loffler hit.
Again, what is the DB supposed to do, allow the receiver to complete tucking the ball? If the defender is another 1/2 second or 1 step away it's a completed pass. We some something similar when Mitchell made some receptions and then got hit recently.
I'm all for protecting the players and don't know what exactly can be done to eliminate fast and hard hits.
Well, DB has the choice of knocking the pass down or tackling the receiver. Eliminate the option of running them over and using intimidation as a fear factor.
Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on September 24, 2025, 05:45:22 PMWell, DB has the choice of knocking the pass down or tackling the receiver. Eliminate the option of running them over and using intimidation as a fear factor.
A DB doesn't always have the option to knock down a pass. It depends on the position of the ball for both the receiver and the DB. More often it's choice to hit the receiver to dislodge the ball. This all happens in a very short time frame. Intimidation is part of the game. You are aware of Brady ball are you not. That's intimidation and punishing defensive players trying to make a tackle.
The "defenseless receiver" thing has always baffled me. If you have the ball you're going to get lit up by a defender. I feel bad for Wheatie but it's collateral damage and deciding when a hit is "violent" is so pathetically subjective.
Thanks for sharing that Loffler hit in what was our first playoff game in 5 years back then. I remember that happening and cheering and getting into a tiff with my father in law and brother in law, "yeah you can't hit a guy that hard..."
Derp.
Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on September 24, 2025, 05:45:22 PMWell, DB has the choice of knocking the pass down or tackling the receiver. Eliminate the option of running them over and using intimidation as a fear factor.
not pretending to be an expert but can a rule be instituted that to be a legitimate tackle the defender must at least attempt to wrap up receiver/qb vs using their shoulder/shoulder pads as a point of contact.
Quote from: Pete on September 24, 2025, 08:03:52 PMnot pretending to be an expert but can a rule be instituted that to be a legitimate tackle the defender must at least attempt to wrap up receiver/qb vs using their shoulder/shoulder pads as a point of contact.
Speaking as a kid who grew up playing football and rugby, any attempt to shoulder tackle in rugby without a clear attempt to wrap is met with an immediate yellow card (closest comparable penalty in football would be a misconduct, in rugby it would be 10 minutes on the bench and the offending teram playing 1 player down until the other team scored or 10 minutes elapsed). If there was no attempt to wrap *and* the player was injured *or* it was a clear attempt to injure, it would be a red card (in football, equivalent would be a game miscoduct and player is done for the game; in rugby it's banishment from the match and an immediate suspension until the disciplinary committee meets, and decides when(or even if) a player will *ever* be allowed to play again.)
I have advocated for decades as a coach in football that tackling rules from rugby should be adopted; if the league is *really* concerned about player safety, they need to make sure every player attempts to wrap during the tackle, and that shoulder tackles are penalized (like, tack 10 yards on after the end of the play) to discourage situations where players launch their body in an uncontrolled manner into a group of people or at an individual. Proper form protects the head, neck and spine, and has the potential to reduce concussions.
Quote from: VictorRomano on September 24, 2025, 08:41:10 PMSpeaking as a kid who grew up playing football and rugby, any attempt to shoulder tackle in rugby without a clear attempt to wrap is met with an immediate yellow card (closest comparable penalty in football would be a misconduct, in rugby it would be 10 minutes on the bench and the offending teram playing 1 player down until the other team scored or 10 minutes elapsed). If there was no attempt to wrap *and* the player was injured *or* it was a clear attempt to injure, it would be a red card (in football, equivalent would be a game miscoduct and player is done for the game; in rugby it's banishment from the match and an immediate suspension until the disciplinary committee meets, and decides when(or even if) a player will *ever* be allowed to play again.)
I have advocated for decades as a coach in football that tackling rules from rugby should be adopted; if the league is *really* concerned about player safety, they need to make sure every player attempts to wrap during the tackle, and that shoulder tackles are penalized (like, tack 10 yards on after the end of the play) to discourage situations where players launch their body in an uncontrolled manner into a group of people or at an individual. Proper form protects the head, neck and spine, and has the potential to reduce concussions.
Appreciate the comment, and agree even if it was just for qbs, The Reavis hit on Collaros there was no attempt to wrap up, it was to inflict as much damage as he could even if it was within the rules. Its not just player safety, we've all seen the quality of games when a teams qb1 is out.
Are there rules on the shoulder pad and elbow equipment as to how hard they can be? Its almost like a weapon
Quote from: VictorRomano on September 24, 2025, 08:41:10 PMSpeaking as a kid who grew up playing football and rugby, any attempt to shoulder tackle in rugby without a clear attempt to wrap is met with an immediate yellow card (closest comparable penalty in football would be a misconduct, in rugby it would be 10 minutes on the bench and the offending teram playing 1 player down until the other team scored or 10 minutes elapsed). If there was no attempt to wrap *and* the player was injured *or* it was a clear attempt to injure, it would be a red card (in football, equivalent would be a game miscoduct and player is done for the game; in rugby it's banishment from the match and an immediate suspension until the disciplinary committee meets, and decides when(or even if) a player will *ever* be allowed to play again.)
I have advocated for decades as a coach in football that tackling rules from rugby should be adopted; if the league is *really* concerned about player safety, they need to make sure every player attempts to wrap during the tackle, and that shoulder tackles are penalized (like, tack 10 yards on after the end of the play) to discourage situations where players launch their body in an uncontrolled manner into a group of people or at an individual. Proper form protects the head, neck and spine, and has the potential to reduce concussions.
That's the perfect solution, intimidation isn't a necessary part of the game, nobody buys a ticket to watch a DB grunt knock a highly talented receiver out of the lineup and onto the injury list for multiple weeks. If the DB has to throw a bodycheck into a receiver to knock the ball lose he was either caught out of position to knock down the pass or showed up too late to make a play on the ball.
Quote from: blue_or_die on September 24, 2025, 06:27:30 PMThe "defenseless receiver" thing has always baffled me. If you have the ball you're going to get lit up by a defender. I feel bad for Wheatie but it's collateral damage and deciding when a hit is "violent" is so pathetically subjective.
The issue at hand here, and what I'm sure most would be on board with, is going for major hits on receivers at the moment of the catch when they are looking at nothing but the ball, usually getting blindsided, or have no time to protect themselves. In the Wheatie case, it was all 3.
The current rules are not comprehensive enough, because they really only protect RECs against shin hits and spearing. Spearing would only apply when a static REC (i.e. zone sitter) has a DB fly at him helmet first with his body in the air. That's dangerous because that's a full-speed guy's weight flying at a non-moving REC, and contacting first with a hard surface (helmet).
How is that any worse than the converse, where the REC is in a full speed run catching a crossing route, and the DB then braces themselves at a near-45 degree angle planted on the ground to become basically a granite wall. In both cases the speed of the collision is the same. But the planted-DB instance is worse because there is zero give by 1 party in the collision! At least in the spearing-DB example both players absorb the hit and both are knocked back. In the Wheatie example only 1 player is knocked back.
I don't see how you can protect one, but not the other. And the league HAS flagged the Wheatie hit before, many times. The inconsistency from command and apparent desire for more blood-sport this season is disturbing.
Quote from: TecnoGenius on September 25, 2025, 03:57:56 AMThe issue at hand here, and what I'm sure most would be on board with, is going for major hits on receivers at the moment of the catch when they are looking at nothing but the ball, usually getting blindsided, or have no time to protect themselves. In the Wheatie case, it was all 3.
The current rules are not comprehensive enough, because they really only protect RECs against shin hits and spearing. Spearing would only apply when a static REC (i.e. zone sitter) has a DB fly at him helmet first with his body in the air. That's dangerous because that's a full-speed guy's weight flying at a non-moving REC, and contacting first with a hard surface (helmet).
How is that any worse than the converse, where the REC is in a full speed run catching a crossing route, and the DB then braces themselves at a near-45 degree angle planted on the ground to become basically a granite wall. In both cases the speed of the collision is the same. But the planted-DB instance is worse because there is zero give by 1 party in the collision! At least in the spearing-DB example both players absorb the hit and both are knocked back. In the Wheatie example only 1 player is knocked back.
I don't see how you can protect one, but not the other. And the league HAS flagged the Wheatie hit before, many times. The inconsistency from command and apparent desire for more blood-sport this season is disturbing.
I definitely agree with flagging below the belt chop tackles, spearing, and anything involving the head. But when all those parameters are abided by, a clean hit is a clean hit. Same as hockey, where as a defender you go full speed ahead at the player looking to receive the puck and time it perfectly so they're hit right as they gain possession and hope to cause a turnover.
Not sure what "defense" the receiver can have anyway. They're wearing pads and are playing a rough sport. The opportunity to assume the fetal position will only cause more damage when muscles tense up anyway.
I'm all for player safety but there's a point where it's just a contact sport.
Quote from: Pete on September 24, 2025, 09:37:51 PMAre there rules on the shoulder pad and elbow equipment as to how hard they can be? Its almost like a weapon
Unsure if this comment was direct to me re: rugby, but rugby has very strict limitations on protective equipment. A mouthguard is required, but that's it. PLayer cannot wear medical bracing with any kind of hard parts (strap buckles, plastic joint supports) that may cause cuts or impact injuries during play. Most players simply uise a ton of tape, and some use tape over a soft neopprene support. Some front row forwards who engage in mauls and scrums frequently choose to wear a soft foam-padded scrum cap, to protect the players ears from becoming "cauliflower ears" (much like a wrestler's headgear), but this in no way protects from concussions or skull fractures from impacts. Players can choose to wear a World Rugby approved padded undershirt, but this is mostly intended to prevent severe bruising, with most of the soft foam padding being on top of the shoulders and around the sternum).
I will add one other thing about the Laws in rugby when it comes to tackling - it is stated in the Laws that the player initiating the tackle is responsible for the health and welfare of the player he is attempting to tackle. If a player gets hurt during the tackle, the blame rests on the player who initiated the tackle. This is why rugby's Laws penalize players who tackle above mid-chest (even with a full wrap attempted), dump tackles (where the tackled player's head is closer to the ground than his hips, increasing the chance the head and neck hit the ground first), spear tackles (where they player is lifted beyond the horizontal during the tackle, with their head lower than their hips), stiff-arm tackles (where the tackler uses a fist and/or strike with a rigid arm to initiate the tackle) and whip tackles (where a player is flung to the ground by being swung around by their jersey). All of the above are considered Dangerous Play, and usually lead to a yellow card (if unintentional) or a red card (if intentional, repeated, or if tyhe tackled player suffers injury).
Quote from: blue_or_die on September 25, 2025, 01:42:28 PMI definitely agree with flagging below the belt chop tackles, spearing, and anything involving the head. But when all those parameters are abided by, a clean hit is a clean hit. Same as hockey, where as a defender you go full speed ahead at the player looking to receive the puck and time it perfectly so they're hit right as they gain possession and hope to cause a turnover.
Not sure what "defense" the receiver can have anyway. They're wearing pads and are playing a rough sport. The opportunity to assume the fetal position will only cause more damage when muscles tense up anyway.
I'm all for player safety but there's a point where it's just a contact sport.
What you're failing to recognize is the hit laid on Wheatfall caused a concussion due to the blunt force exerted, just as it would have if he speared him in the head with his helmet, the end result is the same. The DB made a conscious decision to hit him as hard as he could to potentially knock the ball loose instead of wrapping him up with a proper tackle. Can't blame him as he's executing the lessons he's been taught, but if a penalty flag is pending for using excessive force, good chance he chooses the second option first.
From the league's standpoint favouring completions over bone-rattling hits creates more offence instead of more punts. It also has economic benefits of not having to pay Wheatfall to sit out games on the injury list and pay another player to take his place.
Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on September 25, 2025, 07:36:29 PMWhat you're failing to recognize is the hit laid on Wheatfall caused a concussion due to the blunt force exerted, just as it would have if he speared him in the head with his helmet, the end result is the same. The DB made a conscious decision to hit him as hard as he could to potentially knock the ball loose instead of wrapping him up with a proper tackle. Can't blame him as he's executing the lessons he's been taught, but if a penalty flag is pending for using excessive force, good chance he chooses the second option first.
From the league's standpoint favouring completions over bone-rattling hits creates more offence instead of more punts. It also has economic benefits of not having to pay Wheatfall to sit out games on the injury list and pay another player to take his place.
What if he wrapped him up and it knocked him to the ground so hard he got a concussion all the same? Would that be "excessive force"?
Proper, clean play results in injuries all the time. This is just an unfortunate example.
Quote from: blue_or_die on September 25, 2025, 08:15:10 PMWhat if he wrapped him up and it knocked him to the ground so hard he got a concussion all the same? Would that be "excessive force"?
Proper, clean play results in injuries all the time. This is just an unfortunate example.
It was %100 avoidable. Ever see Evan Holm smack a receiver down and injure them? No, because he uses proper rugby tackling technique, which is better for everyone.
Quote from: blue_or_die on September 25, 2025, 08:15:10 PMWhat if he wrapped him up and it knocked him to the ground so hard he got a concussion all the same? Would that be "excessive force"?
It's simple physics. If the DB & REC are roughly the same weight (often true), then if both are unbraced (not sticking their legs in 45 degree angle), and moving at a similar speed (or neither moving too fast) then both should either stay together, or both be thrown back with equal force.
In the Wheatie case, if the DB went for a form tackle with no plant, then both parties would, post-hit, still be moving in the direction Wheatie was running.
Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on September 25, 2025, 08:41:21 PMIt was %100 avoidable. Ever see Evan Holm smack a receiver down and injure them? No, because he uses proper rugby tackling technique, which is better for everyone.
You bet. After that hit I looked for retaliation hits (honestly, kind of hoping for one) and all our guys were just doing normal form tackles. It's what we do, probably because it has a better chance of success in bringing the guy down.
Also, hits like the DB did on Wheatie have a very good chance of injuring the DB too. That's not great for your career, or the team.
T. Jones and C. Lawson fined for high hits on Dru Brown this week.