Well, no doubt about it, that game felt like a sucker punch. I have always believed this team could turn it around once players got healthy and the newer players and coaches started coalescing into a team again. That hasn't happened so far. The dreams of controlling our own destiny and getting first place by sweeping Sask are officially over. Play-offs, despite panic, are still very much in play, so we can hope for a Cinderella on-the-road play-off run like in 2019, but I'm currently not seeing the parallels to that team.
Good:
- Pokey looks the same as ever. He's our one wild card moving forward
- Defensive scheme did it's job: limited passing, offensive attempts, points
- Won TOP, even with the ineptness of the offence post Zach injury. One of the ways we were limiting the Sask offence.
- Zach ran off the field. That was a scary moment, I am happy he was physically able to do that.
Bad
- OL looked like a sieve again, and this was with the 3 IMP line. We played our only card and still lost. Hogan has to make changes to scheme to keep the QB from getting killed
- Turnovers have robbed our season. Period. We have constantly played in the lead only to just give it away.
- A .500 record combined with us losing the season series to both Sask and Calgary has us officially hoping for 3rd place. The dream of hosting consecutive play-off games for the WF and GC are done. That's really disappointing. That was the easiest path to a home Grey Cup win.
Ugly:
- Zach's injury/TSN's comments. Milt should know better than to speak about another player's health and career, imo.
- The 2022 and 2023 Grey Cup performances. We should have won those games. To come out of this run on 3 straight losses to teams that we should have easily beat is depressing.
Good:
Pokey, Oliveira, Tony Jones
D holding Sask to 21
Bad:
Points off turnovers
Ugly:
Sergio out kicked by Lauther
hit on our QB
bad - sergio, missed one last week, missed two this week. the game could play out very different if we had those points.
ugly - strev trying to be a QB and the team thinking he can be a QB...they called every play possible to avoid him throwing over 15 yards cause he can't, he tried and it got picked. it's a harsh world but you have to be able to recognize when the ability is no longer there.
having sask trapped at their one yard line and giving up the rainbow pass and then a PI by Vaval. hold them and we get great field position next series and maybe a miracle.
Quote from: Waffler on September 07, 2025, 02:06:18 PMGood:
Pokey, Oliveira, Tony Jones
D holding Sask to 21
Bad:
Points off turnovers
Ugly:
Sergio out kicked by Lauther
hit on our QB
I would add Griffin to Good list with 11 tackles. Also, ND10 had a pretty solid game.
Good
all our linebackers, woodbey is a keeper
Lawson jr wasnt noticable, for a db thats good
As above Olivera, Demski, Wilson
Bad
Interception call on Vaval, Holms was borderline
Not having Woods/Adam vs Ayers, our nonimports have shown they can make needed plays
Hogans scheme or lack of to offset rider rush
Our blitzes had zero effect, but we telegraph them lining up early and Harris adjusts
Being outcoached again
As above turnovers and oline
Ugly
Another 3rd qtr with zero points
Zacs injury and officials on field and in Toronto not calling it, No way should we have had to use a challenge
All good pts everyone! Can't argue with much here
Props to JT, Woodbey and Kramdi. I noticed all three. Kramdi playing all over. Also liked seeing mixed up alignment with Allen who played well.
Very disappointed in MOS for kicking the 51 yard FG. Should have pinned them deep.
Good-Olivera finally used like he is the best running back in the league
- Goldmember part of the pre game festivities, way to represent section 211
-secondary continues to show improvement
Jones and Griffin making tackles
Bad- O line gave up too many hits on Qb's
-Injury to Colleros
-missed field goals
Ugly-another bad third quarter
Quote from: The Zipp on September 07, 2025, 02:13:08 PMbad - sergio, missed one last week, missed two this week. the game could play out very different if we had those points.
ugly - strev trying to be a QB and the team thinking he can be a QB...they called every play possible to avoid him throwing over 15 yards cause he can't, he tried and it got picked. it's a harsh world but you have to be able to recognize when the ability is no longer there.
I pray O'Shea comes to this realization instead of stubbornly denying there isn't a problem with Strev's abilities, if so Terry Wilson will never get the opportunity to surpass him and will disappear from view shortly after this season ends. Even Morgan in Mtl. resembles a QB that has the right toolbox, Strev. just plays like a misfit that lost his super-power.
Quote from: Pete on September 07, 2025, 02:53:57 PMBad
Interception call on Vaval, Holms was borderline
If you mean the interference call on Vaval, then it definitely was DPI, Vaval was holding the receivers right arm prior to the ball arriving, the reply showed it clearly. Agree on the Holm DPI, but apparently the ref called it illegal contact on a receiver and the head ref or CC upped it to DPI.
Ugly:
Up 17 to 3 and more or less dominating the play, with 36 seconds left in the first half
With dodgy O line pass protection, and a qb who throws picks a fair bit, calling a forty yard pass play which was easily picked off.
O line just collapsed into Zach, and he just heaved it.
Even worse cause you have Brady. Who was making some tough yards
Also ugly.....
I noticed, just now watching that end of half pick, and the early third quarter interceptions thrown by Zach, that the intercepting player was brought down by Zach.
Both times?
That is really lame on the part of the other players on Offence. pathetic effort. Watching your old fragile qb bringing down a defensive player. Then doing that again. Weak. No wonder he doesn't seem to trust some of them.
I was watching some plays from 2022, zach threw 37 td passes. Some to Bailey. Bet he wouldn't have jammed out on those interception returns.
Spirit wise, This team is a shadow that team.
Quote from: markf on September 07, 2025, 07:56:48 PMUgly:
Up 17 to 3 and more or less dominating the play, with 36 seconds left in the first half
With dodgy O line pass protection, and a qb who throws picks a fair bit, calling a forty yard pass play which was easily picked off.
O line just collapsed into Zach, and he just heaved it.
And you have Brady. Who was making some tough yards
I'm sure there's a great inside football explanation, for that call, that Mr Hogan could provide.
Also ugly.....
I noticed, just now watching that end of half pick, and the early third quarter interceptions thrown by Zach, that the intercepting player was brought down by Zach.
Both times?
That is really lame on the part of the other players on Offence. pathetic effort. Watching your old fragile qb bringing down a defensive player. Then doing that again. Weak.
I was watching some plays from 2022, zach threw 37 td passes. Some to Bailey. Bet he wouldn't have jammed out on those interception returns.
Spirit wise, This team is a shadow that team.
Agree, some of the leaders on defence are more followers than leaders by default. Holm, Nichols, T. Jones and Kyrie are understated individuals, even Willie doesn't do much more than cheer for himself. Kramdi might be a great communicator due to his knowledge of the game but I don't get the impression he's much of a leader.
Quote from: bwiser on September 07, 2025, 04:51:23 PMGood-Olivera finally used like he is the best running back in the league
- Goldmember part of the pre game festivities, way to represent section 211
-secondary continues to show improvement
Jones and Griffin making tackles
Bad- O line gave up too many hits on Qb's
-Injury to Colleros
-missed field goals
Ugly-another bad third quarter
My pleasure! :)
Quote from: Waffler on September 07, 2025, 02:06:18 PMUgly:
Sergio out kicked by Lauther
ahahhhahahahahah ahahhahahaha hahahahahahah hahahahaha
Can't-score Lauther is literally always on the brink of losing his job. Pathetic he hit more than Sergio.
Stupid thing is, I was watching Sergio in warmups and he was making probably 90% of his >45's. And the wind was worse in warmups.
He's had enough distance in all these long misses, it's always just a hair wide right or (usually) left. Dial it in Sergio! He may be going through one of those K slumps we often see. Snap out of it, man!
Quote from: The Zipp on September 07, 2025, 02:13:08 PMugly - strev trying to be a QB and the team thinking he can be a QB...they called every play possible to avoid him throwing over 15 yards cause he can't
Can't he? He's a big man, with a big chest & arms. Not bulk, but lean strength. He has no history of arm injuries. There's no reason he can't chuck it 65+ like the best of them. I've seen him zip 40Yers out there without even trying.
I know his mechanics are wonky, and he's more wrist than body, but we've all seen him flick effortless ones. Accuracy and correct reads... that's a different issue.
Quote from: bwiser on September 07, 2025, 04:51:23 PM- Goldmember part of the pre game festivities, way to represent section 211
Literally the best part of the game!
Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on September 07, 2025, 05:29:58 PMEven Morgan in Mtl. resembles a QB that has the right toolbox, Strev. just plays like a misfit that lost his super-power.
Morgan is hot garbage. Maybe given another 2 years of dev he might turn into something. Maybe. But as for out-of-the-gate success, may I point out Strev won waaaaaaay more games, arguably with a worse team (2018 WPG).
So if you guys think Strev is still bad... what does that make Morgan?
Quote from: TecnoGenius on September 08, 2025, 07:30:29 AMCan't he? He's a big man, with a big chest & arms. Not bulk, but lean strength. He has no history of arm injuries. There's no reason he can't chuck it 65+ like the best of them. I've seen him zip 40Yers out there without even trying.
I know his mechanics are wonky, and he's more wrist than body, but we've all seen him flick effortless ones. Accuracy and correct reads... that's a different issue.
Steveler can throw the ball a long way, and he's hit some deep dimes in his time here.
Problem is, his accuracy, or the lack thereof.
When he hits the target, it is a thing of beauty. But its not often enough an occurrence to depend on that.
And his short throws are even less consistent. The receivers make him look so much better by getting to the balls, but it hurts their YAC and opens them up for hits when they have to spend time and energy getting to the ball, instead of it getting to them.
I really think we have to move on from him next game if Zach is injured. Wilson, with Chase backing him up and Streveler as the SY and 3rd on the DC, emergency receiver.
Quote from: TecnoGenius on September 08, 2025, 07:30:29 AMCan't he? He's a big man, with a big chest & arms. Not bulk, but lean strength. He has no history of arm injuries. There's no reason he can't chuck it 65+ like the best of them. I've seen him zip 40Yers out there without even trying.
I know his mechanics are wonky, and he's more wrist than body, but we've all seen him flick effortless ones. Accuracy and correct reads... that's a different issue.
the proof is in the puddin'....when I say can't throw it is implied it more than just uncle rico'ing across a field...he cannot in a game complete passes with accuracy and timing like a professional QB should be able to, and it isn't getting better - just the opposite and to make things even worse his scrambling has taken a nosedive too.
Good passage from John Hodge's summary of the game, explains how all parties lose when Zach was knocked out of the game
"The penalty was costly for Saskatchewan as it negated a fumble that was recovered by defensive lineman Mike Rose and gave Winnipeg a fresh set of downs near midfield. It was also costly for Winnipeg as Collaros lay on the turf for a minute or two before leaving straight for the locker room. He didn't return to the game."
"Hits like this one make the game worse for everyone, which is why the league has worked hard to eliminate them. They're bad for the players who get hurt, the players who get penalized, the team that loses its quarterback, the team that loses its big play, the fans who want to see the best players play, and the network that pays millions of dollars to broadcast the league's best players in a marquee game."
https://3downnation.com/2025/09/06/winnipeg-blue-bombers-lose-banjo-bowl-zach-collaros-against-roughriders-12-other-thoughts/ (https://3downnation.com/2025/09/06/winnipeg-blue-bombers-lose-banjo-bowl-zach-collaros-against-roughriders-12-other-thoughts/)
I'm just going to go with one ugly here as this has been an issue all season...
MOS and the Bomber staff have no clue how to manage a clock going into a half time. Turning point of the game was the 2nd and 10 interception with less than a minute to go, no doubt about it. I'll debate anybody one this, even Techno. Bombers run the ball there, kill 20 seconds and punt, Sask is taking a knee and getting out of the half down 10. The way their offense was playing at that time, Mace is not putting the ball in the air. Total momentum swing being down only one score for Sask with the successful last second field goal.
Okay I'll add one more concern, Jason Hogan as OC.
We shouldn't have to remind people not to denigrate or insult players, coaches or management with personal, insulting comments. Criticize their performance but keep the insults out of your comments. Thanks.
Quote from: jdrattops on September 08, 2025, 10:14:34 PMMOS and the Bomber staff have no clue how to manage a clock going into a half time. Turning point of the game was the 2nd and 10 interception with less than a minute to go, no doubt about it. I'll debate anybody one this, even Techno. Bombers run the ball there, kill 20 seconds and punt, Sask is taking a knee and getting out of the half down 10.
Not much debate here. Except I will point out that often times the boobirds will come out when teams "chicken out" with time still on the clock, especially in Big Games.
Personally I'm totally all-in with Be Bold. Because being wimpy has literally cost us 2 cups. I'm fine with the play, but it has to be there, and the REC has to know he's "it" and not to hold up. By that point it should have been clear the deep routes were not available in that game because SSK wanted to stop the deep hosing they got in LDC.
Someone else said a couple of mid shots would have been good enough for FG. I agree.
Quote from: jdrattops on September 08, 2025, 10:14:34 PMI'm just going to go with one ugly here as this has been an issue all season...
MOS and the Bomber staff have no clue how to manage a clock going into a half time "this year". Turning point of the game was the 2nd and 10 interception with less than a minute to go, no doubt about it. I'll debate anybody one this, even Techno. Bombers run the ball there, kill 20 seconds and punt, Sask is taking a knee and getting out of the half down 10. The way their offense was playing at that time, Mace is not putting the ball in the air. Total momentum swing being down only one score for Sask with the successful last second field goal.
There, I fixed it for you.
I agree for this year. Osh has been really good at clock management for years, grinding things out with running plays when needed. He's really been good at this for a long time.
Except this year. I don't know what is going on. Was it LaPo and then Buck that were actually doing all that management on offense? Does Osh really just stand back and watch his OC and DC run the game, and throw the challenge flag as the HC once in a while when needed? I've gotta believe he does more than that in games.
But something has changed this year with clock management, and the biggest change was at OC. So it has me wondering.
Quote from: Big Daddy on September 09, 2025, 04:10:41 PMThere, I fixed it for you.
I agree for this year. Osh has been really good at clock management for years, grinding things out with running plays when needed. He's really been good at this for a long time.
Except this year. I don't know what is going on. Was it LaPo and then Buck that were actually doing all that management on offense? Does Osh really just stand back and watch his OC and DC run the game, and throw the challenge flag as the HC once in a while when needed? I've gotta believe he does more than that in games.
But something has changed this year with clock management, and the biggest change was at OC. So it has me wondering.
It was LaPo's obsession which is wearing thinner with each passing year, O'Shea has no say in the offensive play calling other than to decide to gamble on 3rd, kick a FG or punt.
Clock management has been bad all year.....
When I coached...no, not a pro level mind you....and when I designed and schemed my offences, I always looked at it as you are playing two opponents.....one the defence and two the clock....stats back-up just how important the TOP is...and if you go deeper into it the psychological and performance factors of keeping the other team's offence of the field while physically beating down the opposing defence it will show just how important playing the clock really is.....
Winnipeg had been really good with this for years...we appeared to design our offence to grind it out, play "bully ball" etc......At times it would be frustrating seemingly like we played for a field goal and not a TD, we seemed to almost always play safe....
This year is different, we are IMO getting too fancy, too greedy, we have gone away from playing safe, gone is the conventional wisdom of play calls.....
Many examples of this, this year, before the half the last two weeks are perfect examples....LD conventional clock killing wisdom would have ran twice and ran as much time off the clock as possible and tried for the FG.....what did we do we took a shot...and got sacked...cost us 7 yards and we missed the FG.....Banjo Bowl....clock killing offence would have ran twice, or a high percentage pass such as a screen etc. ran down as much time as possible off the clock and at worst angled a punt to pin them deep with virtually no time left....what did we do, aired it out...int. and they end up scoring 3 points.....both examples swung momentum the wrong way...
Sure one can argue, but, sometimes you have to take a chance...sure but the totality of the situation needs to be played out and I don't feel our OC has the smarts to do that....too many examples of getting "fancy"...another glaring example why go with Strev. on first and goal the other week....Everyone knows Strev. is not 100% and the threat to run he used to be....oh and have him in shotgun which fooled no one on the defence...why get "fancy"... again it arguably cost us points and swung momentum....the totality of the situation taken into account that should never have even been a thought.....
At any rate there are many, many, many examples of our offensive scheme and play calling not seeming to understand the overall situation....and I am afraid unless that changes, we will continue to cause "self inflicted" suffering with this offence and without Zach's ability to buy time and make chicken salad out of chicken poo....I just see the offence spiraling down.....and making Strev. look bad in teh process
I'm not 100% sure who gets delegated the clock management duties, but it usually is an underling assistant who just watches the clock and makes sure the coaches are aware of the situation.
Did that personnel change in the offseason? Did Buck take them with him?
Like every great organization, your organizational chart gets raided every year. We've lost OC's, Asst GM's, scouts, coaches, and players.
While you hope that you have the depth for next man up, and being able to train up the next guy, its not always going to happen that your replace a spot with someone as good or better.
"Growing pains" is one thing, its easy for struggling organizations to upgrade, especially when they have good teams to raid.
Maintaining excellence is tough, especially when your best people get targeted, and you can only afford to keep so many...
I get how salary caps are important, and I am all for the hard cap on players. But the front office cap has always bothered me.
Thanks, Chris Jones, for screwing us all over.
We have a successful organization, that is very deep in the black, but we can't fork out a few extra sheckles to flesh out our front office staff to put a better product on the field. Its just not a good MO for the league, really.
Quote from: theaardvark on September 09, 2025, 05:12:41 PMWe have a successful organization, that is very deep in the black, but we can't fork out a few extra sheckles to flesh out our front office staff to put a better product on the field. Its just not a good MO for the league, really.
The on-field product was just fine in 2019, 2021, 2022, 2023... But now that it isn't, you're bothered by the front office cap...? Absurd.
The organization only has itself to blame here, IMO. The same way it hasn't managed its players' roster sufficiently recently, it's looking like a similar issue for the front office roster.
These are self-inflicted wounds.
Quote from: theaardvark on September 09, 2025, 05:12:41 PMI'm not 100% sure who gets delegated the clock management duties, but it usually is an underling assistant who just watches the clock and makes sure the coaches are aware of the situation.
Did that personnel change in the offseason? Did Buck take them with him?
Like every great organization, your organizational chart gets raided every year. We've lost OC's, Asst GM's, scouts, coaches, and players.
While you hope that you have the depth for next man up, and being able to train up the next guy, its not always going to happen that your replace a spot with someone as good or better.
"Growing pains" is one thing, its easy for struggling organizations to upgrade, especially when they have good teams to raid.
Maintaining excellence is tough, especially when your best people get targeted, and you can only afford to keep so many...
I get how salary caps are important, and I am all for the hard cap on players. But the front office cap has always bothered me.
Thanks, Chris Jones, for screwing us all over.
We have a successful organization, that is very deep in the black, but we can't fork out a few extra sheckles to flesh out our front office staff to put a better product on the field. Its just not a good MO for the league, really.
The problem Chris Jones created was in the number of coaches he hired, if one team has 15 coaches as Luke Wilson would like to see vs. 10 on another team, there is going to be a pronounced advantage for the team with the bigger coaching staff.
Quote from: blue_gold_84 on September 09, 2025, 05:32:26 PMThe on-field product was just fine in 2019, 2021, 2022, 2023... But now that it isn't, you're bothered by the front office cap...? Absurd.
The organization only has itself to blame here, IMO. The same way it hasn't managed its players' roster sufficiently recently, it's looking like a similar issue for the front office roster.
These are self-inflicted wounds.
Here, here.
The real ugly with this team is the third quarters where we cannot seem to score.
What kind of half time snack do we have anyhow? Turkey dinner that makes us sleepy? I'd love to see a 3rd quarter where we come out and are more energized and ready to go and take it to them and get a TD right off the bat. What a dream!
Who's in charge of the clock?? Good god man, how about everyone should be aware of when we're i. The last 3 minutes—-the refs call their own timeout and let the benches know there's 3 minutes left, and in that time period incomplete passes and the ball going out of bounds stops the clock. So if you're a team that's behind you're likely not going to run it, you're passing it, likely out or post patterns so the rgame chi era can get out of bounds. If you're ahead, you're going to run it and keep the ball in bounds so you can keep the clock moving and kill it
This ain't rocket science, but I agree with others, clock management has escaped our genius OC, that dude couldn't coach a peewee youth team!! Just a joke.
Fans are restless.
We Need a solid win to calm everybody down.
The good Lord himself couldn't win us this game vs Ticats, we are going to get lit up big time.
Quote from: blue_gold_84 on September 09, 2025, 05:32:26 PMThe on-field product was just fine in 2019, 2021, 2022, 2023... But now that it isn't, you're bothered by the front office cap...? Absurd.
He's onto something. In 2019 we had a legit high-paid OC
and DC. Real legit guys that had been coaches/HCs/coords for a decade+ each. MOS/KW split the coach's kitty with them.
Every contract since, MOS and KW have taken more and more. The coach cap hasn't kept up with the MOS/KW demands. First to go was Lapo, which let us pay "in house" Buck much less. Buck's $ went up as he kept winning. As Buck's went up the only way to keep giving everyone more was to shed Hall. So now we have Younger, earning buckets less than Hall did. Again, this let KW/MOS take even more, and keep bumping Buck up.
Finally Buck left, and we bring on no-name Hogan who is probably so budget it would make you laugh. And so MOS/KW can get even more. Oh ya, add in shedding a "real" STC for noob Miller...
Because both Younger (yes, even with bumps) is budget, and Hogan is mega-budget, MOS/KW can stay fat and happy. They think they're worth it. They're probably right.
But we are now at the end of the wick because there is no OC/DC combo more budget than what we have right now. Any vet/normal OC/DC will instantly bust our cap. Maybe we can keep it running like this 1 more season. But unless the water boy is our next OC, and Fatboi takes over as DC, we literally can't get any cheaper at those spots.
That means that one of KW/MOS will have to go. Because there is no more space for bumps, unless the CFL bails us out by upping the coach cap $250k next year or something. Find me one HC/GM combo that is paid more than ours, excluding "2 hat" HC/GM's. In fact, this exact problem is why there are so many 2-hat guys in the CFL right now.
You heard it here first.
Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on September 09, 2025, 04:26:06 PMIt was LaPo's obsession which is wearing thinner with each passing year, O'Shea has no say in the offensive play calling other than to decide to gamble on 3rd, kick a FG or punt.
Not true. MOS can set the tone and priority for the schemes, telling his OC the general direction he wants to go.
I have zero doubt that MOS was pivotal in making the 2-min drill an important thing here. We had the best one for many seasons. Same as Buck now in BC (as HC), he took a shambles 2-min drill to a top-3 one in just a few months as HC.
Quote from: Big Daddy on September 09, 2025, 04:10:41 PMI agree for this year. Osh has been really good at clock management for years, grinding things out with running plays when needed. He's really been good at this for a long time.
Except this year. I don't know what is going on. Was it LaPo and then Buck that were actually doing all that management on offense?
There's conflation here (not just you) between clock-bleeding and the 2-min drill. These are 2 completely separate things, even though they are both "clock management".
Our team is still the top team for
clock bleeding. When we're up or the game is close we are bleeding that 19s off the clock every snap. We love, and are kings of, shortening the game. We've been this for many seasons now. No change.
What we seem to have lost is the league-best 2-min drill. I think that's what most are talking about here, complaining about the last drive before halftime. Lapo/Buck were so good at it. Even if MOS is saying "we need a top 2 min drill", it looks like Hogan hasn't mastered it yet. And it shows.
Quote from: TecnoGenius on September 10, 2025, 08:35:17 AMHe's onto something.
How? If this regime is at a point where guys like Walters and O'Shea are eating more up the FOSMS without considering how that impacts the rest of FO staff, then FIFO is basically dead.
And the regime has no one to blame but themselves.
Quote from: TecnoGenius on September 10, 2025, 08:35:17 AMHe's onto something. In 2019 we had a legit high-paid OC and DC. Real legit guys that had been coaches/HCs/coords for a decade+ each. MOS/KW split the coach's kitty with them.
Every contract since, MOS and KW have taken more and more. The coach cap hasn't kept up with the MOS/KW demands. First to go was Lapo, which let us pay "in house" Buck much less. Buck's $ went up as he kept winning. As Buck's went up the only way to keep giving everyone more was to shed Hall. So now we have Younger, earning buckets less than Hall did. Again, this let KW/MOS take even more, and keep bumping Buck up.
Finally Buck left, and we bring on no-name Hogan who is probably so budget it would make you laugh. And so MOS/KW can get even more. Oh ya, add in shedding a "real" STC for noob Miller...
Because both Younger (yes, even with bumps) is budget, and Hogan is mega-budget, MOS/KW can stay fat and happy. They think they're worth it. They're probably right.
But we are now at the end of the wick because there is no OC/DC combo more budget than what we have right now. Any vet/normal OC/DC will instantly bust our cap. Maybe we can keep it running like this 1 more season. But unless the water boy is our next OC, and Fatboi takes over as DC, we literally can't get any cheaper at those spots.
That means that one of KW/MOS will have to go. Because there is no more space for bumps, unless the CFL bails us out by upping the coach cap $250k next year or something. Find me one HC/GM combo that is paid more than ours, excluding "2 hat" HC/GM's. In fact, this exact problem is why there are so many 2-hat guys in the CFL right now.
You heard it here first.
Was this the post that was supposed to get you banned?
First of all how do you know what any of the coaches make?
MOS is in the last year of a 3 year deal, likely making little more than he did in 2023. Kyle Walters the same except on a 2 year deal. Both expiring at the end of this year.
Younger could have left Winnipeg but they opted to give him DC and a pay bump, I assume close to market value because he had options. Not sure why you say he is paid so little. Hogan probably is paid less but he does not have options.
So where did the Hogan savings go if MOS/KW are both already under contract? More likely Hall + Younger and Jackson + Hogan evens out any pay savings.
Saying we had a "real" STC coach before Miller is kind of a jaw dropper. Paul Boudreau? He went to Hamilton and didn't last a single season. Fired in July his first year.
Let's say it DID go to MOS/KW, then we have the same problem we do with our players, winning made everyone expensive. A blow up would be inevitable but without the salary numbers we can say nothing definitively.
Quote from: Waffler on September 10, 2025, 02:50:19 PMWas this the post that was supposed to get you banned?
First of all how do you know what any of the coaches make?
MOS is in the last year of a 3 year deal, likely making little more than he did in 2023. Kyle Walters the same except on a 2 year deal. Both expiring at the end of this year.
Younger could have left Winnipeg but they opted to give him DC and a pay bump, I assume close to market value because he had options. Not sure why you say he is paid so little. Hogan probably is paid less but he does not have options.
So where did the Hogan savings go if MOS/KW are both already under contract? More likely Hall + Younger and Jackson + Hogan evens out any pay savings.
Saying we had a "real" STC coach before Miller is kind of a jaw dropper. Paul Boudreau? He went to Hamilton and didn't last a single season. Fired in July his first year.
Let's say it DID go to MOS/KW, then we have the same problem we do with our players, winning made everyone expensive. A blow up would be inevitable but without the salary numbers we can say nothing definitively.
Fair to say Walters and MOS have levelled off at reasonable salary ceilings and would be unlikely to rob Peter to pay Paul as it would have a negative effect on the organization, which appears to be their main passion. Richie Hall and JJ may have accepted lower than expected wages in order to keep their hand in the game while allowing the 3 young co-ords to receive league standard pay for their positions. The notion that every one always gets a bump doesn't match salary cap reality.
Quote from: blue_gold_84 on September 10, 2025, 02:11:00 PMHow? If this regime is at a point where guys like Walters and O'Shea are eating more up the FOSMS without considering how that impacts the rest of FO staff, then FIFO is basically dead.
FIFO is for the players, not the coaches. Coaches are special. (And it's kinda true)
And even with FIFO players jockey for extra $. Zach doesn't give back some of his arguably too-high salary. Many players hold out for big coin. Some do let a bit be clawed back to "help the team win", yes, but most of those are already very highly paid. KW generally offers within 10% of market value for most players we retain.
Approach is probably similar to, the players salary.
What % does Zach get of players budget.
Quote from: Waffler on September 10, 2025, 02:50:19 PMFirst of all how do you know what any of the coaches make?
Every time a coach/coord contract is up and MOS/KW do a presser there is mention of how difficult it is to keep everyone paid to what they "deserve". Especially when Buck contracts were up and/or teams were trying to steal him as HC. MOS outright said the cap makes it hard to keep everyone.
In fact, the one I'm thinking of is the off-season they "dumped" Hall for Younger. Then magically there was enough money to keep Buck. Without that move Buck was gone.
Quote from: Waffler on September 10, 2025, 02:50:19 PMYounger could have left Winnipeg but they opted to give him DC and a pay bump, I assume close to market value because he had options. Not sure why you say he is paid so little. Hogan probably is paid less but he does not have options.
Younger, in his first year, was probably the lowest paid DC in the league. You don't have to give him Hall's money that season, you just need to bump him compared to his "assistant whatever" salary. Why pay a rookie DC 10 year vet DC money? You don't need to.
As for Hogan, I bet we pay him half, or even a third or fourth, of what we paid Buck. (Of course he'll get bumps each year he stays, more if he does well -- probably built into the contract.)
Quote from: Waffler on September 10, 2025, 02:50:19 PMSo where did the Hogan savings go if MOS/KW are both already under contract? More likely Hall + Younger and Jackson + Hogan evens out any pay savings.
I don't know if they have contracted yearly bumps, or just wait until their contract year to get it all in one huge bump. The Hogan move may have been preemptive to open up the space before the KW/MOS contract negotiations.
As for the Jarius/Hall "assistant" salaries... I think they are being
creative with how they remunerate those guys.
Quote from: Waffler on September 10, 2025, 02:50:19 PMLet's say it DID go to MOS/KW, then we have the same problem we do with our players, winning made everyone expensive. A blow up would be inevitable but without the salary numbers we can say nothing definitively.
Bingo. That's precisely what I was saying.
And I think the main reason we didn't see Lapo back is that there was no way in any universe we could fit him into our coaches cap.
Quote from: TecnoGenius on September 10, 2025, 10:51:57 PMEvery time a coach/coord contract is up and MOS/KW do a presser there is mention of how difficult it is to keep everyone paid to what they "deserve". Especially when Buck contracts were up and/or teams were trying to steal him as HC. MOS outright said the cap makes it hard to keep everyone.
In fact, the one I'm thinking of is the off-season they "dumped" Hall for Younger. Then magically there was enough money to keep Buck. Without that move Buck was gone.
Younger, in his first year, was probably the lowest paid DC in the league. You don't have to give him Hall's money that season, you just need to bump him compared to his "assistant whatever" salary. Why pay a rookie DC 10 year vet DC money? You don't need to.
As for Hogan, I bet we pay him half, or even a third or fourth, of what we paid Buck. (Of course he'll get bumps each year he stays, more if he does well -- probably built into the contract.)
I don't know if they have contracted yearly bumps, or just wait until their contract year to get it all in one huge bump. The Hogan move may have been preemptive to open up the space before the KW/MOS contract negotiations.
As for the Jarius/Hall "assistant" salaries... I think they are being creative with how they remunerate those guys.
Bingo. That's precisely what I was saying.
And I think the main reason we didn't see Lapo back is that there was no way in any universe we could fit him into our coaches cap.
Bumps??? How bumps? Under the coach's salary cap guaranteed Walters spends every penny allotted, so if one guy gets a bump, another guy gets a chop, he won't spend more than what is allowed. Buck left so the budget probably got re-jigged this season, but without coaching changes salaries are probably maxed out. Perhaps Walters negotiated multi year contracts with the coaching staff, so they know exactly what they're getting paid a year in advance..
I highly doubt that MOS is gouging us for a high salary at the expense of paying his other coaches peanuts. That's not MOS. He would pay people a fair salary and to suggest KW and MOS are taking advantage of their other coaches without factual information is nothing short of slander. They both deserve better than that. Pretty disappointed there's a post that even suggests that's what's going on.
Quote from: dd on September 11, 2025, 01:17:19 AMI highly doubt that MOS is gouging us for a high salary at the expense of paying his other coaches peanuts. That's not MOS. He would pay people a fair salary and to suggest KW and MOS are taking advantage of their other coaches without factual information is nothing short of slander. They both deserve better than that. Pretty disappointed there's a post that even suggests that's what's going on.
Without getting into specific numbers, both MOS and Walters have spoken about the limits of the coaching salary cap in our organization for this exact reason.
Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on September 11, 2025, 12:05:10 AMBumps??? How bumps? Under the coach's salary cap guaranteed Walters spends every penny allotted, so if one guy gets a bump, another guy gets a chop, he won't spend more than what is allowed.
3 possibilities:
1. Bumps written into contract (like they do with players)
2. Bumps when their contract is renewed/renegotiated
3. Just random bonus bumps when WM/KW find space (other staff leave)
2 is kind of a given, 1 is totally possible, 3 could happen.
I have zero idea what actually transpires or what each is paid and when each gets a raise, if any. However, if you want methods to keep "bumping" them, the above 3 are totally feasible.
Quote from: dd on September 11, 2025, 01:17:19 AMI highly doubt that MOS is gouging us for a high salary at the expense of paying his other coaches peanuts. That's not MOS. He would pay people a fair salary and to suggest KW and MOS are taking advantage of their other coaches without factual information is nothing short of slander. They both deserve better than that. Pretty disappointed there's a post that even suggests that's what's going on.
I never said anyone was gouging. I never said Mafia didn't provide a "fair salary".
KW/MOS could keep taking in higher salary
AND other coaches/coords are paid what they are worth.
That's my whole premise. Guaranteed Younger earns less than Hall did in his last year as DC. Guaranteed Hogan earns less than Buck in his last year as OC. Guaranteed Miller earns less than Boo in his last year as STC.
No one has to be paid unfairly for this to be true, it's a matter of years-in-league and years-at-position and proven-track-record.
This is common sense and I'm not sure how anyone can argue that.
There's no law that says you have to pay noob Hogan "average CFL OC salary". Why would you? He hasn't shown squat yet. Why would you pay him even half of what vets Maksymic & Condell earn?
Thus there's all this juicy coach cap space they can use to keep MOS/KW well paid. I bet both are at or near league-top pay. (The only exceptions would be
dual-hat guys like Dinwiddie.) And they both deserve it for going to 5 cups in a row.
This is precisely why 4 teams have two-hat HC's! It's not because they want more work; it's because it's the only way to make sure they are paid enough. Then you can pay the HC+OC (or DC with Mace) the full HC salary plus maybe half the OC salary. Then the dual-hat gets more than a guy like MOS, but the team is still saving enough on the half-OC money to hire "real" DCs and STCs.
Nothing nefarious. Nothing ugly. This is just a reality caused by the coaches cap. And barring a big CFL cap increase, I think we'll reach the limit real soon now. Maybe as early as MOS/KW's contract renewal this off-season. Either we have to keep hiring cheap noobs, or one of the whale salaries of MOS/KW has to go. If we're lucky the Hogan move in FA25 cleared up enough cap that MOS/KW can get the big bumps they need, and we can kick the can another 2-3 years.
However, this hinges on Hogan (and Younger) growing into great coords. If Hogan doesn't start showing more promise, and the fans keep getting restless(er), then you have a situation where everyone is fat & happy in the coaches cap, but we can't win games. That also would break the whole setup, and to fix it (hire a "real" OC) would be impossible without one of MOS/KW leaving. For this reason we all better cheer and pray for Hogan to succeed!
As for where would MOS/KW go if they felt underpaid? The only teams that could take either would be teams where the other guy (GM or HC) is much more budget (read: new). Because MOS ain't putting on a dual-hat ever, so the only way to pay him more than WFC is if the GM is a budget one, or all the other coords are more noob than in WPG, which may be impossible.
We could easily keep
one of MOS/KW if the other walks, because then you could make that HC or GM position budget with a noob or bad retread.
This all seems totally logical to me, and dovetails perfectly with what Mafia has said on many occasions (yes, without details). And all the blame for all this cap dancing is the CFL coaches cap and the fact it's clearly way too low.
Quote from: TecnoGenius on September 10, 2025, 10:34:30 PMFIFO is for the players, not the coaches. Coaches are special. (And it's kinda true)
It's not just for the players. It's a
team mantra going back years - it's engraved on the 2021 team's GC108 rings: https://baronrings.com/2021-winnipeg-blue-bombers-grey-cup-championship-ring/
(https://baronrings.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/06/Baron-Championship-Rings-Blog-Official-2021-Winnipeg-Blue-Bombers-Grey-Cup-Championship-Ring-Blog-Engraving.jpg)
FIFO has been heavily ingrained in this organization's identity and culture for ages.
I can't agree with the notion that coaches are special. They're another cog in the machine, just as the players are.
Quote from: blue_gold_84 on September 11, 2025, 01:22:34 PMIt's not just for the players. It's a team mantra going back years - it's engraved on the 2021 team's GC108 rings: https://baronrings.com/2021-winnipeg-blue-bombers-grey-cup-championship-ring/
(https://baronrings.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/06/Baron-Championship-Rings-Blog-Official-2021-Winnipeg-Blue-Bombers-Grey-Cup-Championship-Ring-Blog-Engraving.jpg)
FIFO has been heavily ingrained in this organization's identity and culture for ages.
I can't agree with the notion that coaches are special. They're another cog in the machine, just as the players are.
Except the FIFO laws have not been passed down from above on tablets of stone, or created by a committee of like-minded thinkers to sustain success on the football field, they were created by MOS, he owns them and and he plays favourites. He is not a benign figure that treats all players or people equally, he wants to win, but he wants to do it with "his guys" on the field.
Case in point, Zach is beyond the tipping point of his career, with the events that have happened already this season I sincerely doubt he plays next year due to health concerns, contract or not. Alarm bells should be ringing throughout the Bomber organization, and yet his replacement is nowhere to be seen, no preparations have been made, and MOS has blind faith Zach will continue on as he has in the past. The entire fate of the football team rests on the shoulders of a failing QB and nothing is being done to avert the outcome.
Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on September 11, 2025, 04:47:39 PMExcept the FIFO laws have not been passed down from above on tablets of stone, or created by a committee of like-minded thinkers to sustain success on the football field, they were created by MOS, he owns them and and he plays favourites. He is not a benign figure that treats all players or people equally, he wants to win, but he wants to do it with "his guys" on the field.
Case in point, Zach is beyond the tipping point of his career, with the events that have happened already this season I sincerely doubt he plays next year due to health concerns, contract or not. Alarm bells should be ringing throughout the Bomber organization, and yet his replacement is nowhere to be seen, no preparations have been made, and MOS has blind faith Zach will continue on as he has in the past. The entire fate of the football team rests on the shoulders of a failing QB and nothing is being done to avert the outcome.
My fear is that O'Shea sees the heir apparent to Zach as Streveler, with Wilson backing up, because these are the guys who have been here for a few years "putting in the work". Talent be damned.
Quote from: bunker on September 11, 2025, 11:06:40 PMMy fear is that O'Shea sees the heir apparent to Zach as Streveler, with Wilson backing up, because these are the guys who have been here for a few years "putting in the work". Talent be damned.
No he can't be that stubborn can he?? That would be a total disaster, I wouldn't even invite Steve back or if I did it would be strictly for shorty yardage only. We need a new #1&2 Qb for next year for sure
Quote from: bunker on September 11, 2025, 11:06:40 PMMy fear is that O'Shea sees the heir apparent to Zach as Streveler, with Wilson backing up, because these are the guys who have been here for a few years "putting in the work". Talent be damned.
Seriously doubt it. "Putting in the work" may work a bit for other positions, but not for QB. Raw talent is what it's all about at QB. Besides, it wouldn't be (totally) MOS's call: KW is the final arbiter of who gets signed as a QB.
Quote from: dd on September 12, 2025, 01:21:59 AMNo he can't be that stubborn can he?? That would be a total disaster, I wouldn't even invite Steve back or if I did it would be strictly for shorty yardage only. We need a new #1&2 Qb for next year for sure
Ya, I think we move on from Strev in '26. Wilson can do SY just fine. The only way Strev stays is if his knee is continuously improving such that he can get rid of the brace eventually and regain closer to 90% of his previous speed, not 50% he's at right now. Possible, maybe even probable. But not a sure thing.
Quote from: Big Daddy on September 09, 2025, 04:10:41 PMThere, I fixed it for you.
I agree for this year. Osh has been really good at clock management for years, grinding things out with running plays when needed. He's really been good at this for a long time.
Except this year. I don't know what is going on. Was it LaPo and then Buck that were actually doing all that management on offense? Does Osh really just stand back and watch his OC and DC run the game, and throw the challenge flag as the HC once in a while when needed? I've gotta believe he does more than that in games.
But something has changed this year with clock management, and the biggest change was at OC. So it has me wondering.
Agreed, thanks for fixing this for me. I've also called for Hogans head all season, so just maybe our OC owns a big part of this.