Where's the "plane" on a punt?
A few games back @ PAS there was a punt kicked by the opponent that landed outside the EZ. It then rolled, untouched, so that (it appeared) the nose of the ball had broken the plane of the EZ. But by "plane" I mean the plane that's used to tell if a TD has been scored: i.e. the inside edge of the goal line.
The ball did not go far enough to cross the outside edge of the goal line. So it was on the line, but not actually into the non-line EZ area.
Our returner (Vaval) picked it up and returned it. He was hoping it would roll into the EZ for a single, as he was waiting for it to roll farther.
My question is: did that ball "break the plane" and Vaval could have given up the single (what we wanted)? Or, same question reworded: is the plane on a punt the same as the plane on a normal O play?
People around me were mixed. Some said the plane changes on a punt to be the outside edge. Some said the plane remains the same as a TD.
My guess is it did break the plane and Vaval should have downed it. Why? Because even if punting has a different plane than normal O (which I've never heard of but is possible), that should only take effect after the ball is touched and the returning team gains possession?
Bonus question: Vaval was chasing it, I think, having let it go over his head. Does he have to get his butt into the EZ before touching the ball to be a single? Or can he pick it up while he's outside the goal area as long as the ball is across the plane (whichever plane that may be)?
It's an interesting question from a fan/rules perspective but imagine you were Vaval back there trying to secure the ball, get your head back up, find your blocks, your lanes, etc.
He isn't going to be able to determine if the tip of the nose of the ball crossed the goal line or not. And if he takes the ball from inside the field of play and gets tackled or goes down in the end zone then it's a safety so it's never going to be coached like that.
Quote from: TecnoGenius on August 26, 2025, 06:40:57 AMWhere's the "plane" on a punt?
A few games back @ PAS there was a punt kicked by the opponent that landed outside the EZ. It then rolled, untouched, so that (it appeared) the nose of the ball had broken the plane of the EZ. But by "plane" I mean the plane that's used to tell if a TD has been scored: i.e. the inside edge of the goal line.
The ball did not go far enough to cross the outside edge of the goal line. So it was on the line, but not actually into the non-line EZ area.
Our returner (Vaval) picked it up and returned it. He was hoping it would roll into the EZ for a single, as he was waiting for it to roll farther.
My question is: did that ball "break the plane" and Vaval could have given up the single (what we wanted)? Or, same question reworded: is the plane on a punt the same as the plane on a normal O play?
People around me were mixed. Some said the plane changes on a punt to be the outside edge. Some said the plane remains the same as a TD.
My guess is it did break the plane and Vaval should have downed it. Why? Because even if punting has a different plane than normal O (which I've never heard of but is possible), that should only take effect after the ball is touched and the returning team gains possession?
Bonus question: Vaval was chasing it, I think, having let it go over his head. Does he have to get his butt into the EZ before touching the ball to be a single? Or can he pick it up while he's outside the goal area as long as the ball is across the plane (whichever plane that may be)?
My thoughts (without looking at the rulebook):
Question 1: There is only one endzone. It starts at the "field" side of the goal line and extends to inside of the back line and inside of the 2 boundary lines. No special end zone for a punt or anything else. So, yes he could have conceded a single
if the ball didn't cross the goal after he
touched it.
Bonus question: It's all about where the ball is when he first touches it. Where he is is irrelevant. Again, as long as any part of the ball doesn't cross the goal line after he touches it (even if the ball is on the ground).
Quote from: TecnoGenius on August 26, 2025, 06:40:57 AMWhere's the "plane" on a punt?
A few games back @ PAS there was a punt kicked by the opponent that landed outside the EZ. It then rolled, untouched, so that (it appeared) the nose of the ball had broken the plane of the EZ. But by "plane" I mean the plane that's used to tell if a TD has been scored: i.e. the inside edge of the goal line.
The ball did not go far enough to cross the outside edge of the goal line. So it was on the line, but not actually into the non-line EZ area.
Our returner (Vaval) picked it up and returned it. He was hoping it would roll into the EZ for a single, as he was waiting for it to roll farther.
My question is: did that ball "break the plane" and Vaval could have given up the single (what we wanted)? Or, same question reworded: is the plane on a punt the same as the plane on a normal O play?
People around me were mixed. Some said the plane changes on a punt to be the outside edge. Some said the plane remains the same as a TD.
My guess is it did break the plane and Vaval should have downed it. Why? Because even if punting has a different plane than normal O (which I've never heard of but is possible), that should only take effect after the ball is touched and the returning team gains possession?
Bonus question: Vaval was chasing it, I think, having let it go over his head. Does he have to get his butt into the EZ before touching the ball to be a single? Or can he pick it up while he's outside the goal area as long as the ball is across the plane (whichever plane that may be)?
The plane to the end zone is the same for any play in the game, it is the inside edge of the goal line.
Quote from: dd on August 26, 2025, 02:54:32 PMThe plane to the end zone is the same for any play in the game, it is the inside edge of the goal line.
It's the field side but that didn't sound like what you said.
Quote from: bomb squad on August 26, 2025, 02:53:03 PMQuestion 1: There is only one endzone. It starts at the "field" side of the goal line and extends to inside of the back line and inside of the 2 boundary lines.
If true, then the same thing should apply to the every yard line, right?
Let's forget the EZ for a moment and switch to the 1 yard line. When an O is close to scoring, if the ball is moved closer to the EZ than the 1YL (say the 1/2 YL), we all know the ball is moved to the 1YL for the next play. I'm pretty sure the ball is placed so the tip of its nose is touching the closer-to-55 edge of the 1YL (or what BinBC named it, "field side", which seems a good term). Right?
But what if there's a 3rd down gamble at the 1 that turns the ball over. Now the (new) offense is "backed up" and the ball is placed at the 1YL. QUESTION: is the ball placed at the closer-to-55 edge of the 1YL? Or because the O is going the other way, is it placed on the closer-to-GL edge of the 1YL?
I'm going to go check, as I think our last game (or the OTT game?) had such an incident.
But if the edge used for ball placement depends on which way the ball is going... then wouldn't it also apply to the GL? And if so, that would mean there possibly isn't "only one endzone".
(Hopefully I'll find that the edge for ball placement is the same regardless of direction...)
Quote from: Blue In BC on August 26, 2025, 06:16:55 PMIt's the field side but that didn't sound like what you said.
that's what o mean you have to break the plane from the inside of the goal line or field side of the goal line
Quote from: TecnoGenius on August 27, 2025, 02:36:10 AMIf true, then the same thing should apply to the every yard line, right?
Let's forget the EZ for a moment and switch to the 1 yard line. When an O is close to scoring, if the ball is moved closer to the EZ than the 1YL (say the 1/2 YL), we all know the ball is moved to the 1YL for the next play. I'm pretty sure the ball is placed so the tip of its nose is touching the closer-to-55 edge of the 1YL (or what BinBC named it, "field side", which seems a good term). Right?
But what if there's a 3rd down gamble at the 1 that turns the ball over. Now the (new) offense is "backed up" and the ball is placed at the 1YL. QUESTION: is the ball placed at the closer-to-55 edge of the 1YL? Or because the O is going the other way, is it placed on the closer-to-GL edge of the 1YL?
I'm going to go check, as I think our last game (or the OTT game?) had such an incident.
But if the edge used for ball placement depends on which way the ball is going... then wouldn't it also apply to the GL? And if so, that would mean there possibly isn't "only one endzone".
(Hopefully I'll find that the edge for ball placement is the same regardless of direction...)
on any unsuccessful 3rd down gamble, the ball is placed where it goes dead and is then flipped/pivots so the nose of the football pivots from the dead ball spot but is now going the other way
Quote from: dd on August 27, 2025, 03:05:18 AMon any unsuccessful 3rd down gamble, the ball is placed where it goes dead and is then flipped/pivots so the nose of the football pivots from the dead ball spot but is now going the other way
Yes. But my point is, what is done if it's inside the one... where the ball is MOVED and NOT placed where it goes dead. The question is: does it go nose to the goal-area edge of the 1YL, or nose to the field edge of the 1YL... or does it depend on which team has the ball (which way the ball is driving)?
Quote from: TecnoGenius on August 27, 2025, 03:10:01 AMYes. But my point is, what is done if it's inside the one... where the ball is MOVED and NOT placed where it goes dead. The question is: does it go nose to the goal-area edge of the 1YL, or nose to the field edge of the 1YL... or does it depend on which team has the ball (which way the ball is driving)?
The ball is placed at the 1 yard line.1 yard away from the goal line. There's no reason that I can think of for placing it anywhere else. What would be the reason for placing it on the goal side of the line? Not following your logic.
Here's another question to chew on though: If there is one yard from the goal line to the field side of the one yard stripe and each stripe thereafter, is it possible that the field actually is 110 yards from goal to goal?
Edit: Unless the actual 1 yard line is the center of the line. Then, if they are placing the ball at either edge, it's actually not the 1 yard line. They probably do so because it's easier to identify the edge rather than the center of the line.
(https://media3.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPTc5MGI3NjExbGZqaGxlOGw0eDl1azMzNm5pYm5uaTBuNmNka21oZHhzbmRjZDA3eiZlcD12MV9pbnRlcm5hbF9naWZfYnlfaWQmY3Q9Zw/l2JJO0D0JpgoU5OTe/giphy.gif)
I would love to hear a coaches show with Techno and O'Shea :D
Quote from: bunker on August 27, 2025, 04:43:12 PMI would love to hear a coaches show with Techno and O'Shea :D
Oh no... MOS would hate me more than DT. Definitely.
However, DT & I could probably argue this type of stuff for DAYS.
Quote from: bomb squad on August 27, 2025, 03:19:03 PMThe ball is placed at the 1 yard line.1 yard away from the goal line. There's no reason that I can think of for placing it anywhere else. What would be the reason for placing it on the goal side of the line?
If for some reason the "which edge of the line" answer is dictated by "aim back to the team A dead ball line". I've never seen this written, but hey, it is possible?
Quote from: bomb squad on August 27, 2025, 03:19:03 PMEdit: Unless the actual 1 yard line is the center of the line. Then, if they are placing the ball at either edge, it's actually not the 1 yard line. They probably do so because it's easier to identify the edge rather than the center of the line.
That's a great point. Is it 1Y from center or from some edge... and if so, which edge. And then does which edge change after you cross the 55?
I am totally going to take a mini tape measure with me next game and check post-game.
So I checked the OTT@WPG game because that had the 3 tries from the 1 (for OTT) and then after the TOD WPG snapped from the 1.
Unfortunately, TSN never shows a great angle pre-snap... or more importantly, pre-C-picking-up-the-ball. The situation is made worse by every C moving the ball 6" forward when they lift it to ready for the snap. (Everyone remember MOS chirping at the ref to flag the move-forward every C does? LOL.)
Unless TSN cuts to a good overhead or down-the-line view BEFORE the C picks up the ball, I may not be able to get a good answer.
However, from what I was able to see, if you assume the C is always moving the ball 4-6" forward, I *may* be correct in that the "which edge of the line" question is dictated by which direction the ball is moving! On both OTT and WPG snaps, the nose of the ball appeared to be on or past the "farther away from dead ball line" edge! And since we know in the OTT snaps the ball would be placed on the nearest-to-deadball-line, and know the C's move the ball forward about a line's width, there may be some merit to my theory.
Next home game I'm going to try to spot the placements before the C picks it up if there are any 1YL plays. However, 1YL "going the other way" scenarios are pretty rare (basically must be a TOD, or the ultimate in coffin corner punts).
It might be time to hit the rule book...
Well, rulebook has "ball placement" and "placement of the ball" sections and neither addresses which "edge" of the line is used. Thanks rule book...
For those who are having trouble visualizing what I'm asking, I thought of another point:
If the "nose to field edge" of the 1YL is always used for placement (like it is for a "X & goal from the 1"), then after a TOD the ball would be placed such that it is almost fully over the 1YL stripe. That might look odd to people, because we're all used to only the nose touching the edge of the stripe.
If "dead ball line edge" is always used, then the placement would look more "normal" to most fans, regardless of which way the ball is going.
Rule book also doesn't really use the word "edge" for anything related. The definition of "goal area" is of no help. The only thing I could see that relates to "which edge of lines" is the specification that the field of play is bounded by the INSIDE edge of the rails/deadline.
Even the much-vaunted word "plane" (only used twice in this context) isn't defined.
So now I'm wondering if edges chosen as per this whole thread aren't just unwritten conventions taught in ref school.
I'm surprised no one knows what the definitive answer to this stuff is?
@jdrattops: can you check with your ref friends?
Quote from: TecnoGenius on August 28, 2025, 01:18:50 AMSo I checked the OTT@WPG game because that had the 3 tries from the 1 (for OTT) and then after the TOD WPG snapped from the 1.
Unfortunately, TSN never shows a great angle pre-snap... or more importantly, pre-C-picking-up-the-ball. The situation is made worse by every C moving the ball 6" forward when they lift it to ready for the snap. (Everyone remember MOS chirping at the ref to flag the move-forward every C does? LOL.)
Unless TSN cuts to a good overhead or down-the-line view BEFORE the C picks up the ball, I may not be able to get a good answer.
However, from what I was able to see, if you assume the C is always moving the ball 4-6" forward, I *may* be correct in that the "which edge of the line" question is dictated by which direction the ball is moving! On both OTT and WPG snaps, the nose of the ball appeared to be on or past the "farther away from dead ball line" edge! And since we know in the OTT snaps the ball would be placed on the nearest-to-deadball-line, and know the C's move the ball forward about a line's width, there may be some merit to my theory.
Next home game I'm going to try to spot the placements before the C picks it up if there are any 1YL plays. However, 1YL "going the other way" scenarios are pretty rare (basically must be a TOD, or the ultimate in coffin corner punts).
It might be time to hit the rule book...
Just watched the highlights of that stand and you can clearly see the virtual blue los line butted right up against the field edge of the 1 yd line.
Quote from: bomb squad on August 28, 2025, 06:15:09 AMJust watched the highlights of that stand and you can clearly see the virtual blue los line butted right up against the field edge of the 1 yd line.
Hey, good spot. That's handy. Of course, with TSN's notoriously faulty computer line markers, who knows if we can trust that. But you are correct: on both OTT downs at the 1YL and the WPG 1st snap, the blue line shows the field edge as the spot. So that's some proof in favor of that theory.
However, on the WPG snap, check out the foot of the line judge. If you follow the line it appears to be putting the spot at the deadline edge! And the blue line is more on the 1YL marker where the judge is standing, instead of on the edge. Of course, that really just indicates the blue graphics is imperfect, because clearly it's not actually parallel to the goal line.
I'll be watching other games more closely going forward to see if I can spot what's really going on. I could go back in the PVR (still have most every game), but I'd probably need Junkie to give me a list of 1YL plays (especially ones going field-ward) to narrow my search.
And I'll be watching with my binocs in-person more closely... although from the 55 I may not get enough zoom and useful angles. If anyone here sits in the corners near the GL, especially from 200-level, and has binocs, maybe they could help out?
Quote from: TecnoGenius on August 28, 2025, 02:05:55 AMRule book also doesn't really use the word "edge" for anything related. The definition of "goal area" is of no help. The only thing I could see that relates to "which edge of lines" is the specification that the field of play is bounded by the INSIDE edge of the rails/deadline.
Even the much-vaunted word "plane" (only used twice in this context) isn't defined.
So now I'm wondering if edges chosen as per this whole thread aren't just unwritten conventions taught in ref school.
I'm surprised no one knows what the definitive answer to this stuff is? @jdrattops: can you check with your ref friends?
What specifically are you wanting me to ask? The plane of the goal line is the white in the field side of play moving toward the endzone. Coming out of the endzone the whole ball has to cross the goal line. Are you wanting to know where a ball will be spotted when going away from your own endzone if at the one yard line?
Quote from: jdrattops on September 08, 2025, 10:09:21 PMWhat specifically are you wanting me to ask? The plane of the goal line is the white in the field side of play moving toward the endzone. Coming out of the endzone the whole ball has to cross the goal line. Are you wanting to know where a ball will be spotted when going away from your own endzone if at the one yard line?
Precisely. Which edge.
In fact, I was going to bump this thread after the BB because there were 2 superb examples of what I'm asking. I just haven't rewatched yet to see what they did and what happened (only what I saw @PAS, which wasn't too much as I'm at the 55YL!). I will watch soon.
1. The not-safety play. Which edge/plane was that ball crossing, assuming it was close.
2. Where did they spot the ball (which edge) when SSK got the ball at their 1 after that not-safety.
I'll watch/study and report back.
Banjo Bowl 4Q9:01 Checked out the non-safety & next play.
Non-safety: just as @ PAS it appears the ball was not completely across the field-edge of the goal line when the player's elbow first hits the turf (DBC). A frame or 2 later it is even clearer the ball has not cleared that edge, but it may have moved in a bit as it rolls over.
So either "not enough evidence to overturn" (where's the goal-line camera?) or the deadball-line edge is the determining factor. So no help here, vis a vis this thread.
The next play, just like the other week, they never show the untouched placed ball. TSN cuts to it when the C already has it propped up. And we all know the C's move it forward a few inches. That said, the ball is more lined up with the field edge, but not really by any margin (meaning the C didn't move it ahead at all?). So, no help on the theory here.