Blue Bombers Forum

OK, we know MOS is not the issue.  JY with Hall behind him has been a dominant force and was NOT the issue yesterday.

Buck, however... when things are going good, Buck looks great.  But facing adversity, not to use a cliche, but he seems to get a "buck in the headlights" situation.

A long halftime to make adjustments, and we came out flat.  We should have been shredding their D, and we kept throwing in the McInnis zone.  And to their hottest DB.

When your QB says I can grip the ball, you don't have him throw a deep pass.  Heck, you don't have him throw at all when you have 7 OL dressed and a FB and have the league MOP in the backfield. Or you leave in your #2 who barely got a chance to warm up.

Not sure Buck on the sidelines > Buck in the booth.  The team has struggled mightily on O this year, with some of the best O tools in the league.

Might be a consideration for the grey cup at home to bring in a more dynamic OC.  Does Lapo make more in the studio than as an OC?   

Agree. Our offense struggled mightily yesterday, specifically our passing game. And we abandoned the run which is also puzzling.

When our passing game struggles, I don't understand why we don't revert back to a dink and dunk passing game to keep the ball moving. Look at the passing game the Argos used with Arbuckle--all short yardage passing routes, short yardage curls, designed to be high percentage/low turnover/keep the ball moving. Why didn't we try this?? We seemed to bomb it and go 2 and out ALOT yesterday. We abandoned ball control. I just don't understand why.

We seem to go to this hit and miss attack when it comes to the big game. Instead of being conservative and use the short passing game to keep the ball moving, we go for home runs and punt.

Don't disagree with new OC concept, but doubt it happens with MOS, he sticks with who he's got. good or bad and in this case, bad.
 

I think we'll see a change at OC. It's been a problem for 3 seasons. Predictable and conservative most of the time.

Regardless, our primary issues were players, overall talent level and depth. As I've mentioned we didn't improve our DL or our returner. Then early season injuries to Schoen and Woli didn't help. Depth at receiver was not good all season.  Many of us questioned we retained some players on the PR.

Whitehead was a 1 season rental and was average most of the time but did make a few good contributions. He was consistent except when it mattered most.

I don't know if Cole was injured but Wilson didn't seem to make an impact after his return. Younger may have determined that Cole made too may assignment errors. Making lots of tackles isn't always the entire story.

Hindsight is great. The coaches may have made the correct choice. They look at film and know whether assignments were done correctly etc etc. I didn't particularly see Wilson getting beaten but I couldn't even tell on TV when he was on the field.

He did take a bonehead penalty on the blocked punt but we did end up with a pic to get the ball back quickly.

I'm almost thinking that Buck out leveled himself.  He knew they were thinking we'd rely on BO20 for the bulk of our game, so he decided to do the opposite.  When that wasn't working, the D probably stiffened up for the return to BO20, so Buck decided to stick with what wasn't working to fool them.

When his QB said "I got no grip", and the opponent knew he would have trouble throwing, Buck decided to throw the ball, to again catch them off stride. 

Its almost like he was trying to succeed through failure. 

Love the guy, and he's a great position coach and motivator, but he's no tactician.  And he certainly has shown no ability to adjust to adversity.

Maybe as an HC, he'd do better, but it really seems like he struggles with the X's and O's...

Did Oliveira even get 10-12 touches? He was so poorly misused - again.

Yeah, I'm down to show Pierce the door at this point. Last night's pitiful offensive showing caps off a natural hat trick of failure in the big game. The gunslinger mentality is only entertaining when it works.

Quote from: dd on November 18, 2024, 05:25:31 PMWe seem to go to this hit and miss attack when it comes to the big game. Instead of being conservative and use the short passing game to keep the ball moving, we go for home runs and punt.

Our short pass game wasn't working either.  Remember the 3rd & 3?  Every short pass was contested and our RECs were dropping most of the balls.

I'm fine with the deep shots, because we must be BOLD to win.  However, Zach has to recognize double-coverage and where a DB has a step on our REC.  He made bad decisions deep.  And either he threw late or with too little heat, allowing DBs to get in place.

If the short pass was covered, and the deeps were double-covered, there should have been some openings in the middle, like that one nice one we had in zone.  Just like we leave some spots open for TOR's O, they left some open for us.  Why we didn't find them is beyond me.

And on that 3rd and 3... MTL had the same situation in the last GC and they called a 15Y pass in a guaranteed 1-on-1.  Why didn't we do that?  I wrote a mini-essay on this exact thing after the last GC!  We needed 3 so we threw for 3 and wonder why their whole D was at the sticks to knock the ball out.  That's the difference between Buck and Calvillo.  And if we didn't have the guts to throw a mid pass, just hand it off to Brady for a 60/40 chance.

Quote from: Blue In BC on November 18, 2024, 05:34:12 PMI don't know if Cole was injured but Wilson didn't seem to make an impact after his return. Younger may have determined that Cole made too may assignment errors. Making lots of tackles isn't always the entire story.

I don't think WILL was our problem.  We pretty much shut down the TOR run all night, especially within the tackles.  And TOR was gunning to run because they had no mid/deep pass game.  Our stout run D is what switched TOR into short pass mode.

I was very proud of what we did against TOR's 3 RBs.  Their only success was on dump passes and a couple of outside plays where they were aggressively (partially cheatingly) blocking/holding downfield (which they got called for a couple of times).

Quote from: blue_gold_84 on November 18, 2024, 06:07:55 PMDid Oliveira even get 10-12 touches? He was so poorly misused - again.

Hard to get Brady lots of touches when all drives but one are snuffed out quickly.  We had no rhythm, and were abysmal on 2nd & med/long.  The RECs weren't making plays.  They thought drops would be better.

There were points that we missed taking advantage of.  Franklin goes down, you ATTACK his replacement.  They juggled the DB's, had more than one out of position, and IIRC, it gets thrown into McManis' area. 

McManis is a gamechange.  Franklin was on a heater in the post season.  DON'T THROW THERE.  Its not rocket surgery.  You run routes through the coverage, and throw to the guy without McManis or Franklin on him.  There were some amazing routes, like Wilson coming across the field and running free in space with no one within 10 yards.  Amazing.  Was it a breakdown in coverage, or a great play?  No idea, but it worked.  And that's about the only play I saw that did.

Quote from: TecnoGenius on November 18, 2024, 06:38:19 PMHard to get Brady lots of touches when all drives but one are snuffed out quickly.  We had no rhythm, and were abysmal on 2nd & med/long.  The RECs weren't making plays.  They thought drops would be better.

Adjustments should've been made, then. Pierce seems to struggle mightily with those.

Quote from: theaardvark on November 18, 2024, 05:44:40 PMI'm almost thinking that Buck out leveled himself.  He knew they were thinking we'd rely on BO20 for the bulk of our game, so he decided to do the opposite.  When that wasn't working, the D probably stiffened up for the return to BO20, so Buck decided to stick with what wasn't working to fool them.

When his QB said "I got no grip", and the opponent knew he would have trouble throwing, Buck decided to throw the ball, to again catch them off stride. 

Its almost like he was trying to succeed through failure. 

Love the guy, and he's a great position coach and motivator, but he's no tactician.  And he certainly has shown no ability to adjust to adversity.

Maybe as an HC, he'd do better, but it really seems like he struggles with the X's and O's...

I think Zach's gunslinger mentality has led Buck to throw out half LaPo's old playbook to the point they've dumbed down the offence together, convinced they can  score more points with fewer plays. Just seems lazy, watching LaPo's video analysis reinforces how much detail and intellignece went into his offence. Dinwiddie's game plan was actually closer to LaPo's than Buck's was.

I am sure Wade Miller will sit down with Mike O'Shea and those two will have a heart-to-heart, head-to-head discussion about the state of the Winnipeg Blue Bombers. Neither one of them will be satisfied with another Grey Cup loss.

The simple fact is that in 2022,2023, and 2024 the Winnipeg Blue Bombers lost the Grey Cup game to a better team just like they won the Grey Cup in 2019 and 2021 because they were a better team.

The challenge in 2025 will be the same as it is for every team in the CFL -- field the best team possible and hope that it is the better team at the end.

There is no shame in meeting that challenge, playing in five Grey Cup games in a row, and winning the championship twice. I don't see another team in this league that comes close to that accomplishment. Toronto may get there eventually but the best they can claim at this point is to have won it 2 of the last 3 years.

The Winnipeg Blue Bombers are still, by a wide margin, the most successful team in the CFL in the last five years and I see no reason to believe they won't continue to be. Will there be change? Of course there will. Will they face adversity? Yes. But this culture of excellence isn't going anywhere for the foreseeable future and this Bomber fan is excited to see what lies ahead for this team and it's fans.

Quote from: J5V on November 18, 2024, 08:11:09 PMI am sure Wade Miller will sit down with Mike O'Shea and those two will have a heart-to-heart, head-to-head discussion about the state of the Winnipeg Blue Bombers. Neither one of them will be satisfied with another Grey Cup loss.

The simple fact is that in 2022,2023, and 2024 the Winnipeg Blue Bombers lost the Grey Cup game to a better team just like they won the Grey Cup in 2019 and 2021 because they were a better team.

The challenge in 2025 will be the same as it is for every team in the CFL -- field the best team possible and hope that it is the better team at the end.

There is no shame in meeting that challenge, playing in five Grey Cup games in a row, and winning the championship twice. I don't see another team in this league that comes close to that accomplishment. Toronto may get there eventually but the best they can claim at this point is to have won it 2 of the last 3 years.

The Winnipeg Blue Bombers are still, by a wide margin, the most successful team in the CFL in the last five years and I see no reason to believe they won't continue to be. Will there be change? Of course there will. Will they face adversity? Yes. But this culture of excellence isn't going anywhere for the foreseeable future and this Bomber fan is excited to see what lies ahead for this team and it's fans.

I tend to agree with you in terms of what lies ahead. It is hard to make it to the dance and lose 3 times in a row but at least we got to the dance. Now for the reality - People tend to remember who won vs. who came in second etc. It is that way in any sport. I for one believe there may be some significant changes in the roster come 2025 - maybe even changes in the coaching staff. IMHO the one thing that stands out roster wise is that we are getting too old in a number of places and maybe it is time for a few retirements.

Quote from: TecnoGenius on November 18, 2024, 06:34:20 PMI don't think WILL was our problem.  We pretty much shut down the TOR run all night, especially within the tackles.  And TOR was gunning to run because they had no mid/deep pass game.  Our stout run D is what switched TOR into short pass mode.

I was very proud of what we did against TOR's 3 RBs.  Their only success was on dump passes and a couple of outside plays where they were aggressively (partially cheatingly) blocking/holding downfield (which they got called for a couple of times).

Argos threw a bunch of passes out to the flats and I didn't notice Wilson making plays out there. It didn't seem they were targeting Kramdi's side. Jones and Griffin made 4 DT's each. Kramdi and Wilson had 2 each.

We game up 90 yards rushing on 18 plays which is a 5 yard average per carry. That doesn't say we shut down the Argo run game.

I'm not going to re-watch the game ( deleted immediately ). Cole may not have made any difference but he did seem more obvious in his last 2 games all over the field.

Essentially our entire defence got beat repeatedly. Argos won LOS, TOP and were more physical. Ad our poor performance on offence and that's all she wrote.

I am big on KW's "puzzle piece" approach: look at the 1-3 players/positions that cost you the final game, and fix those (while trying to keep everything else fairly even).

I'm not sure what the piece is this FA.  What lost us the cup?  Well, a legit returner (bye Lucky) is the clear & obvious #1.

But beyond that... the whole REC corps stunk the joint out (well, maybe not Pokey), and "whole REC corps" is not an option as a puzzle piece!  So analysis will have to be done.  Would Schoen being in there have made all the difference?  Who knows.  But the unit as a whole came up extremely lacking, especially compared to the mostly-nobodies and rookies TOR has.  Unwanted Brissett playing 10X better than Demski?  That's not a sane world right there.

I'm not ready to throw any coaches under the bus as a puzzle pieces... yet.  But Buck is a big part of our lack of creativity and ability to win 3 in a row.  Every year he gets out-brained in these cups.

I also am not ready to throw Zach under the bus.  A lot of this isn't on him.  Like ageing, moody, mercurial, can't-win-a-WDF VAJ would be any better.

Lots of meat for discussion in the long off-season.

Quote from: J5V on November 18, 2024, 08:11:09 PMI am sure Wade Miller will sit down with Mike O'Shea and those two will have a heart-to-heart, head-to-head discussion about the state of the Winnipeg Blue Bombers. Neither one of them will be satisfied with another Grey Cup loss.

The simple fact is that in 2022,2023, and 2024 the Winnipeg Blue Bombers lost the Grey Cup game to a better team just like they won the Grey Cup in 2019 and 2021 because they were a better team.

The challenge in 2025 will be the same as it is for every team in the CFL -- field the best team possible and hope that it is the better team at the end.

There is no shame in meeting that challenge, playing in five Grey Cup games in a row, and winning the championship twice. I don't see another team in this league that comes close to that accomplishment. Toronto may get there eventually but the best they can claim at this point is to have won it 2 of the last 3 years.

The Winnipeg Blue Bombers are still, by a wide margin, the most successful team in the CFL in the last five years and I see no reason to believe they won't continue to be. Will there be change? Of course there will. Will they face adversity? Yes. But this culture of excellence isn't going anywhere for the foreseeable future and this Bomber fan is excited to see what lies ahead for this team and it's fans.

We did NOT lose to a better team this year.  Not even close.  We were 10 point favourites going into the game, a 10 point underdog is NOT a better team.

We were beaten, yes.  By a team with a backup starting.

I really think we beat ourselves, we outcoached ourselves and some players literally dropped the ball.  D was impressive, as always.  But our O stunk, and got worse, not better, as the game progressed.

Quote from: TecnoGenius on November 18, 2024, 08:35:12 PMI am big on KW's "puzzle piece" approach: look at the 1-3 players/positions that cost you the final game, and fix those (while trying to keep everything else fairly even).

I'm not sure what the piece is this FA.  What lost us the cup?  Well, a legit returner (bye Lucky) is the clear & obvious #1.

But beyond that... the whole REC corps stunk the joint out (well, maybe not Pokey), and "whole REC corps" is not an option as a puzzle piece!  So analysis will have to be done.  Would Schoen being in there have made all the difference?  Who knows.  But the unit as a whole came up extremely lacking, especially compared to the mostly-nobodies and rookies TOR has.  Unwanted Brissett playing 10X better than Demski?  That's not a sane world right there.

I'm not ready to throw any coaches under the bus as a puzzle pieces... yet.  But Buck is a big part of our lack of creativity and ability to win 3 in a row.  Every year he gets out-brained in these cups.

I also am not ready to throw Zach under the bus.  A lot of this isn't on him.  Like ageing, moody, mercurial, can't-win-a-WDF VAJ would be any better.

Lots of meat for discussion in the long off-season.

For this game, I am ready to hold Zach accountable for the loss.  Yes, Rec's dropped balls.  But he threw a lot of bad passes, and not many hit the rec's in stride or on spot.  The fact they did catch half the balls thrown *at* them was remarkable, IMHO.  Zach had time to throw, had receivers open, and did not execute to the level required in this most important game.  The finger was the icing on the cake, and the 2 post injury picks are on BUCK/MOS leaving him in AFTER he said "I can't grip the ball" and THEN calling passing plays.  The glove was a bad idea. 

Will Zach fix this next year?  He made adjustments after the 6-2 start.  I am willing to let him work it out.  He is tied with Fran Tarkenton (I was a Vikes fan growing up) with three championship losses... one more ties him with Jim Kelly and Frank Reich...

Quote from: Blue In BC on November 18, 2024, 08:25:41 PMWe game up 90 yards rushing on 18 plays which is a 5 yard average per carry. That doesn't say we shut down the Argo run game.

They shut down the run game in terms of explosions, pretty much.  They mostly limited Carey to 3-5Y on most carries.

Compared to what TOR could have done with their run, we did extremely well.  We did good enough that it was clear TOR shifted from a run-first to a pass-first O mid-game.  Coming into the game, I think most of us were worried that the RB trio in TOR with that OL and an iffy QB combined with our 3-man DL was going to result in massive run D exposure.  But it didn't.

The best run of the night by far was Brady's big one.

I'm very proud of our D in this regard.  If their total rush Y was elevated, it's more of a result of them having a long garbage-time, and them continually extending drives.

Quote from: theaardvark on November 18, 2024, 08:36:52 PMWe did NOT lose to a better team this year.  Not even close.  We were 10 point favourites going into the game, a 10 point underdog is NOT a better team.

'22 GC the teams were somewhat even but we were robbed near the end.
'23 GC we were better but MTL lucked out on 2nd & 17 and 3rd & 3 with bold calls.  Stolen too.

'24 GC we were firmly smashed.  The fact it was 10-9 at the half meant we were doomed.  Should have been up 14 points then.  It was clear the plan and prep we had couldn't hold a candle to TOR.  Our RECs should have been running circles around them compared to their REC.

On paper we our O should cream their O.  Our RECs cost 3X to 4X total compared to theirs.  Our 1 RB is worth 3 of theirs... or more.

I think it comes down to planning and prep, and I firmly believe TOR was planning ways to beat WPG all year long (as well as MTL).  We do the "1 week at a time" thing, give no thought in-season to planning for the big game(s), and then lose.  I know KW thinks about it for the puzzle in FA, but no one else seems to.

The GC is not just another game.  We lose because we plan like it is.  The GC is a season-long prep.  Maybe we'll learn from this in time for 2025.

To me, our offensive game planning cost us this game, plain and simple. We came out trying to hit the big one, and hit one, but missed on alot of other passes, and more or less abandoned the run--the thing that brought us to the dance.

I just don't understand why we ran the ball so little. When our passing game was struggling, why didn't we use more shorter passing plays the way toronto did with Arbuckle. 90% of Arbuckles passes were for 15 yards or less. The one interception he threw was on a deep pass--go figure!!

And when it was clear Zack couldn't pass, why have him throw the bombs or throw at all?? Where was Dolegala?? Sure he's not #1 material, but he's easily as good as Arbuckle, easily, and we didn't even dress him?? Why not??

I just don't understand our inability to adapt to things working/not working as the game goes on. Teams usually adapt, we didn't and that was our undoing.

Quote from: dd on November 18, 2024, 10:02:35 PMTo me, our offensive game planning cost us this game, plain and simple. We came out trying to hit the big one, and hit one, but missed on alot of other passes, and more or less abandoned the run--the thing that brought us to the dance.

I just don't understand why we ran the ball so little. When our passing game was struggling, why didn't we use more shorter passing plays the way toronto did with Arbuckle. 90% of Arbuckles passes were for 15 yards or less. The one interception he threw was on a deep pass--go figure!!

And when it was clear Zack couldn't pass, why have him throw the bombs or throw at all?? Where was Dolegala?? Sure he's not #1 material, but he's easily as good as Arbuckle, easily, and we didn't even dress him?? Why not??

I just don't understand our inability to adapt to things working/not working as the game goes on. Teams usually adapt, we didn't and that was our undoing.

Dolegala was dressed, I believe rules state 3 QB's must be on the roster.

Quote from: TecnoGenius on November 18, 2024, 09:30:41 PM'22 GC the teams were somewhat even but we were robbed near the end.
'23 GC we were better but MTL lucked out on 2nd & 17 and 3rd & 3 with bold calls.  Stolen too.

'24 GC we were firmly smashed.  The fact it was 10-9 at the half meant we were doomed.  Should have been up 14 points then.  It was clear the plan and prep we had couldn't hold a candle to TOR.  Our RECs should have been running circles around them compared to their REC.

On paper we our O should cream their O.  Our RECs cost 3X to 4X total compared to theirs.  Our 1 RB is worth 3 of theirs... or more.

I think it comes down to planning and prep, and I firmly believe TOR was planning ways to beat WPG all year long (as well as MTL).  We do the "1 week at a time" thing, give no thought in-season to planning for the big game(s), and then lose.  I know KW thinks about it for the puzzle in FA, but no one else seems to.

The GC is not just another game.  We lose because we plan like it is.  The GC is a season-long prep.  Maybe we'll learn from this in time for 2025.

If by "season long prep" you mean making your team the best it can be each and every week, better and better, then i will agree with you.

But until your opponent is decided and you KNOW who and what you are up against, any plans you make are out the door.  The week of the Grey Gup is the most important week of game planning and practice there is in the CFL.  Thinking you can skate in based on your season's accomplishments, well, I think we saw a little of that on Sunday. 

We were facing a backup QB who had a lot of film from previous games, with other teams.  We should have had him figured out play one.

We had 2 previous games against substantially the same D early in the year, with substantially our same O.  Our game plan out of the blocks sucked.  And if there was any adjustments being made, they sucked worse. 

If our coaches are top of the league, then we should have had a FAR better result, especially early on.  Instead, we handed them the game on a silver platter.

The Zach injury alone showed the flaw in our team. Putting him out there not being able to grip the ball and throwing an immediate pick was terrible coaching.  Putting him back out there after that, well, really?  Is there even words to describe how horrible a mistake that was?

Every loss needs to be flushed and the next game is a new opportunity.  Until the GC.  Now, that game needs to stay front and centre for the team, coaches, exec's, players all to reflect on.  Changes need to be made.  Some tweaks, some machette.  This team cannot enter 2025 without some major changes. 

It hurt losing Jefferson, Hardrick, Grant, Brown, Houston... and we're going to lose even more this off season.  I can't see Schoen coming back, someone is going to offer him more.  Lawler may be tough to sign as well.  The hoggies might be the place we see the least change, w should be able to keep them together.  We're going to lose at least one DB again. And there may be some retirements.

KW has his work cut out for him, and MOS has a tough decision to make about Buck.  I don't think we have an in house replacement at OC, but I bet there are those that would welcome an offer if we demote/dismiss Buck.  Which we definitely need to do. 

Lapo returning would be my first choice.  His technical expertise is outstanding.  Its unfortunate that he didn't work out as HC, but as an OC, I don't think there are many better.

If not Lapo, would Khari or Condell be options?  Or even a Bob Dyce coming home?  Is there someone else out there, maybe an ex-CFL QB that is coaching in the NCAA ready to make the move?

If not Lapo, do we hire Lapo as a consultant to make the short list for MOS to choose from?  His contact list must be huge, and he's spent the year analyzing what we are doing wrong, and what resources we have...

Going into 2025 status quo is not going to cut it.

I'd like to know why we didn't use our MOP/MOC/league leading rusher more often. We totally went away from the run, and we stink when we do that. No surprise at all, especially when ZC is struggling, which underscores the importance of staying with the run even more. I just don't get our game plan. I just don't. There was no secret that Toronto was dressing 8 D lineman to keep the pass rush fresh. Run the stinking ball, throw some draw plays, do something other than chuck it 60 yards down the field for an incompletion, heck we couldn't throw it 15 yards for a completion!!

Quote from: TecnoGenius on November 18, 2024, 08:35:12 PMI am big on KW's "puzzle piece" approach: look at the 1-3 players/positions that cost you the final game, and fix those (while trying to keep everything else fairly even).

I'm not sure what the piece is this FA.  What lost us the cup?  Well, a legit returner (bye Lucky) is the clear & obvious #1.

But beyond that... the whole REC corps stunk the joint out (well, maybe not Pokey), and "whole REC corps" is not an option as a puzzle piece!  So analysis will have to be done.  Would Schoen being in there have made all the difference?  Who knows.  But the unit as a whole came up extremely lacking, especially compared to the mostly-nobodies and rookies TOR has.  Unwanted Brissett playing 10X better than Demski?  That's not a sane world right there.

I'm not ready to throw any coaches under the bus as a puzzle pieces... yet.  But Buck is a big part of our lack of creativity and ability to win 3 in a row.  Every year he gets out-brained in these cups.

I also am not ready to throw Zach under the bus.  A lot of this isn't on him.  Like ageing, moody, mercurial, can't-win-a-WDF VAJ would be any better.

Lots of meat for discussion in the long off-season.

I agree the play calling was horrible, but Zack has to own some of this as well. His throws were hardly accurate all night, even before the injury. Post injury, I don't know why we were passing at all, or maybe a screen pass, but anything down field was pointless, he told everyone he couldn't grip the ball, duh, so let's tell him to pass it anyways!!?!

lots of work to do with the coaching including the head coach - not saying he should be fired but the team wasn't ready...mike miller - rookie special teams coach had a punt block dialled up but players don't know the rules...buck pierce - lots said already - not running when Wilson went in amoung many other things..,3 man rush over used...

why was nichols so bad?  coaching?  prep?

will MOS change his approach? i doubt it

I want to thank all of you for your contributions to this Bomber forum this Bomber season. I appreciate your statistics, analytics, knowledge, and passion and I learn something from each and every post which makes my experience as a fan of this remarkable football team so very pleasant. I thank you all and I look forward, Lord willing, to doing it all again with you next season. Thanks again.

Quote from: J5V on November 18, 2024, 08:11:09 PMThe Winnipeg Blue Bombers are still, by a wide margin, the most successful team in the CFL in the last five years

Quote from: theaardvark on November 18, 2024, 08:36:52 PMWe did NOT lose to a better team this year.  Not even close. 

I don't think you can reasonably make either of these claims.

In the last 5 years, both Winnipeg and Toronto have the same amount of Grey Cup wins. We are not more successful by a wide margin.

And we went 0-3 against Toronto this season. And our record doesn't improve much if you go back to previous seasons. Hard to claim that we didn't lose to a better team.

Quote from: The Zipp on November 18, 2024, 11:53:45 PMlots of work to do with the coaching including the head coach - not saying he should be fired but the team wasn't ready...mike miller - rookie special teams coach had a punt block dialled up but players don't know the rules...buck pierce - lots said already - not running when Wilson went in amoung many other things..,3 man rush over used...

why was nichols so bad?  coaching?  prep?

will MOS change his approach? i doubt it

He was by far our weakest link in our secondary and those who say he should be a hall of famer have got to give their heads a shake. I fully expect a new body in his spot next season. He was whipped like a rented mule all game....its called game planning, go after their weakest link...toronto gets full credit for exposing ours. We on the other hand, kept playing into toronto's strength, mcmanus ruled the middle on us all season, and was the primary reason we went 0-3 against them, so let's keep trying to attack his area of the field?!?! Poorest play calling and game strategy I've ever seen from our sideline. Time to get a new guy at OC, this guy doesn't understand the X's and O's of the game.

Buck has been good in his time here with some head scatching moments to be sure.  I like our offensive game plan, bombs and runs.  We forgot about the run part in the GC.  We have seen much success with Buck and I would like him back but he needs to keep learning and adjust better.  I think in a few years he will be a great OC.  Worth waiting for that imo.

The other coaches are a lock imo.

I think we can win with this group.  Need a few new faces in key areas.  Will be an interesting off season.  SMS is a key factor.

A good debate on the OC here to be sure.

The only weakness on the D is he 3 man front as I see it.  Far too often Arbuckle had way too much time to throw the ball.  Willie was great but Garbutt, Fox and Thomas struggled.

What do the players think about not running the ball, putting Zach in with an injured hand, and then throwing the ball?

Must be very discouraging to work extremely hard all year, play through all the pain, to have all of that work maybe not used in the best possible way.

I read Brady did not come out to meet media after the game.

Quote from: markf on November 19, 2024, 02:48:34 PMWhat do the players think about not running the ball, putting Zach in with an injured hand, and then throwing the ball?

Must be very discouraging to work extremely hard all year, play through all the pain, to have all of that work maybe not used in the best possible way.

I read Brady did not come out to meet media after the game.

Man, when Terry Wilson went in, in scoring range, and we have him attempt 4 straight passes?

That was just ridiculous.

Quote from: markf on November 19, 2024, 02:48:34 PMWhat do the players think about not running the ball, putting Zach in with an injured hand, and then throwing the ball?

Must be very discouraging to work extremely hard all year, play through all the pain, to have all of that work maybe not used in the best possible way.

I read Brady did not come out to meet media after the game.

Losing is never a good thing when so much has been put into the season of work and effort. That is even more certain in losing the championship game.

Our receivers were open deep very early in the game but unfortunately we didn't complete those efforts. Regardless I thought it would keep TO's LB's off the LOS to open up the run game. It did for awhile.

That didn't happen and McMannis had Oliveria's number often and also Demski as well. I don't know if we even tried a pass to Demski beyond about 12 yards. That shows he was limited and allowed the Argos to defend accordingly.

We ended up with 4 completions of 14 efforts to Lawler and Demski combined for about 45 yards total.

Quote from: Jesse on November 19, 2024, 12:20:45 AMI don't think you can reasonably make either of these claims.

In the last 5 years, both Winnipeg and Toronto have the same amount of Grey Cup wins. We are not more successful by a wide margin.

And we went 0-3 against Toronto this season. And our record doesn't improve much if you go back to previous seasons. Hard to claim that we didn't lose to a better team.

Couldn't agree more.

Any given Sunday... The Argonauts were the better team this past Sunday, as evidenced by the end result.

Quote from: Jesse on November 19, 2024, 03:48:53 PMMan, when Terry Wilson went in, in scoring range, and we have him attempt 4 straight passes?

That was just ridiculous.

Well even a raw rookie should be able to complete at least 1/4!  Not blaming Wilson, he looked good and I'd like to see more development take place next season, which means giving him serious game time, not just a seldom used package.

Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on November 19, 2024, 04:20:48 PMWell even a raw rookie should be able to complete at least 1/4!  Not blaming Wilson, he looked good and I'd like to see more development take place next season, which means giving him serious game time, not just a seldom used package.

Well, I'll disagree becaue he didn't look good.

But it's not his fault. You should lean on your best players in big moments and we did the opposite. Just out-thinking ourselves.

Again, our coaches outcoached themselves.

Passing when you have the MOP in your backfield is an obvious "tendency breaker" move.  If they think you are going to run, and they put in a run defence, then throw.  Right?  No.

Best on best is best.  Let them put their best D on the field against the run, and then put the 7 OL you dressed and a FB on the field and let BO20 mow through the D. And then do it again, and again.

Occasionally, once you've got the run established, drop back and look for an open receiver. 

Buck decided to make this an air game, and ZC8 was tossing plugged nickles, not dimes.  And then he injured his finger and couldn't grip the ball.  So Buck calls pass after pass.

Insanity.

Toronto was 10 point underdogs for a reason.  This game should have been a walk. 

But we outcoached ourselves.  Put the players in a position to lose.  Did everything wrong. 

JY did a good job the D was humming well.  ST's got a block and held Grant to 8.3yds per punt return. 

But our Offence, was offensive. 

I'll say it again, you have the MOP in your backfield, 7 OL dressed, and a FB, and he gets 11 carries, and gets lined up at WR repeatedly?  You have 46 offensive plays, and the MOP gets 11 carries and 3 targets?

This offence is supposed to "go through Brady".  Its why he is paid big bucks, and its why he is MOP.

BO20 is under contract for 2025, but after tha, I don't blame him is he looks elsewhere. 

I was asking Cam Meridith at the poker table last night what he looks for in an OC, what kind of OC he liked, and his response wa simple.  "Give me the ball". 

I wouldn't want to be in the room with BO20 and Buck post game.

"Best on best is best.  Let them put their best D on the field against the run, and then put the 7 OL you dressed and a FB on the field and let BO20 mow through the D. And then do it again, and again."

Didnt Sask have the best run D in the league?

seemed to be able to run against them. 

I think trying to be smarter than everyone else is a hallmark of this coaching staff.  Obviously there are Many good things about them, but, this might be a problem issue.


This loss is the bookend for the first O'Shea cup win.

Ticats were heavily favoured, overconfident, and  lost.

Quote from: TecnoGenius on November 18, 2024, 08:35:12 PMEvery year he gets out-brained in these cups.

Out-brained sums it up.  I wasn't a fan of making Buck the OC from day one.  Nice guy but I didn't think he had it in him to work out complex game plans and make adjustments on the fly.  But to his credit his game planning was sometimes excellent and he was praised alot for those wins. You don't get head coach consideration if you aren't doing things right sometimes.  But yesterday was for sure a bad day for Buck.

Was a frustrating game to watch, especially that brutal fourth quarter. I agree with all of the obvious points that have been made - how do you not give the ball to Brady, why is Zach throwing the long ball with a bolted on finger and glove.

And yes we were outcoached because Dinwiddie is the best coach and more importantly best offensive mind in the league. He did a masterful job of getting his #2 journeyman QB prepared by putting in a gameplan that would get the most out of what he could bring. And not overthinking it.

A huge part of our problem is the loyalty O'Shea shows to his veteran players and coaches. Would Dinwiddie have rushed Zach back into the game?  More likely he sticks with the #2 guy and THEN JUST FEEDS BRADY. May not win but hell of a lot better than 4 picks and 2 pick sixes.

The loyalty issue goes back to last year's Grey Cup.  Would an injured Bighill and Schoen be dressed AND STARTING for any other coach?  That arguably cost us that game too. I love all Bighill has done but yesterday was happy we had Tony Jones starting. I know Bighill was not close but if he was then O'Shea would have let him hobble out there again.

Wanted to win that one but not upset. Over the last 5 years it's been awesome watching the Bombers dominate, kick the riders in the Banjo Bowls, win Western finals and get to 5 Cups.  As a fan I have more than gotten my money's worth and will be there next year when we win the Cup and cement our dynasty. 

I sort of wanted to hold off comments until I had the chance to settle down get my thoughts together and really take a hard look at what happened on Sunday.

Number One - Bombers were out coached plain and simple

Number Two - Argos were the better team on Sunday and as much as I hate to say it - Younger!

Number Three - Bombers just too many mistakes and lousy game plan.

What happens in the off season is really hard to say given the one year contacts that players seem to like. However IMHO the bombers need to get younger period!!!

Our downfall in the big game was failing to use what got us there--the run game, effectively. 8 carries for our MOP, that's beyond ridiculous. Inexplainable, but more importantly inexcusable. This proves beyond a shadow of a doubt, we need someone else who understands developing an effective offensive game plan better.

If the team let Buck go,  (I don't think they will)

who replaces him?

Paul LaPolice?

Anyone else come to mind?

Quote from: markf on November 19, 2024, 06:40:13 PMIf the team let Buck go,  (I don't think they will)

who replaces him?

Paul LaPolice?

Anyone else come to mind?

Lapo is the first and obvious choice if you want to win a Grey Cup at home.  No brainer.

There are many other names to consider, but none that are huge upgrades over Buck, unless there is a good dynamic with OShea. 

But Lapo is the choice if we can make it happen.

This is not to scapegoat Buck, like many teams would do.  It is a recognition that we just are not winning the big games, making the right choices, having the right playbook with him in charge.

Question:

Did Buck's head get screwed up by Pinball signing Bryan Scott?  Did he make some unnecessary and upsetting changes in his playbook due to the potential of "espionage"?

Quote from: theaardvark on November 19, 2024, 07:24:54 PMQuestion:

Did Buck's head get screwed up by Pinball signing Bryan Scott?  Did he make some unnecessary and upsetting changes in his playbook due to the potential of "espionage"?

(https://media.tenor.com/1BTOV40oG_0AAAAM/pernalonga-meme-pernalonga-no.gif)

Pierce put together similarly putrid gameplans in both GC109 and GC110.

He's his own worst enemy - much like when he was a QB.

Quote from: blue_gold_84 on November 19, 2024, 07:37:54 PM(https://media.tenor.com/1BTOV40oG_0AAAAM/pernalonga-meme-pernalonga-no.gif)

Pierce put together similarly putrid gameplans in both GC109 and GC110.

He's his own worst enemy - much like when he was a QB.

This, I still haven't forgiven Buck for his 2011 loss to the Lions in BC Place, he did nothing in that game.

Quote from: gordo on November 19, 2024, 05:25:19 PMWas a frustrating game to watch, especially that brutal fourth quarter. I agree with all of the obvious points that have been made - how do you not give the ball to Brady, why is Zach throwing the long ball with a bolted on finger and glove.

And yes we were outcoached because Dinwiddie is the best coach and more importantly best offensive mind in the league. He did a masterful job of getting his #2 journeyman QB prepared by putting in a gameplan that would get the most out of what he could bring. And not overthinking it.

This is what I also believe.  I believe Dinwiddie has grown into a great coach.

I also believe O'Shea is a great coach... but Dinwiddie has also become one.  The difference has become in the Co-ordinators.  I hate to say it, but I am on team replace Buck.  That hurts.

You cannot go away from or be disloyal to your MOP when he is aching to play and turn around and play outright dumb plays.  Have your backup QB (who I actually like)..who's barely thrown in game situations keep throwing big passes instead of feeding your MOP the ball? Ridiculous. Brady is probably fuming and I do not blame him if he is.  He was calm in an interview and I don't know how he did it.

People who blame ZC, he had STITCHES.  That'd hurt like a SOB.  Good for him for being a leader and staying in. However, calling long passes is odd again.  Maybe short ones and the ground game.

Playcalling cost us.  Buck if he stays needs to go back up in the booth.

O'shea's loyalty is what keeps the good players here.  I don't have an issue with it..mostly.  Sometimes it goes too far, but it is mostly a good thing.

Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on November 19, 2024, 07:46:11 PMThis, I still haven't forgiven Buck for his 2011 loss to the Lions in BC Place, he did nothing in that game.

(https://media.tenor.com/qlH2up2IwE8AAAAM/schitts-creek-yeah-sure.gif)

I meant his gunslinger mentality often put him in bad spots as a QB, either throwing long bombs into bad coverage or getting smacked by defenders for holding on to the ball for too long. He never excelled in short passing situations.

That's ostensibly translated to him putting his offenses in his bad spots at inopportune times - and in big games.

Quote from: blue_gold_84 on November 19, 2024, 08:12:07 PM(https://media.tenor.com/qlH2up2IwE8AAAAM/schitts-creek-yeah-sure.gif)

I meant his gunslinger mentality often put him in bad spots as a QB, either throwing long bombs into bad coverage or getting smacked by defenders for holding on to the ball for too long. He never excelled in short passing situations.

That's ostensibly translated to him putting his offenses in his bad spots at inopportune times - and in big games.

I mean QBs do get hurt in big games on his watch. Hmm never connected the dots.

Heard DT on OB earlier today, and he mentioned that the passes Zach threw after the injury were decisions Zach made... the play gets called, and Zach would have a variety of options.  Zach saw Wilson open and decided to make that throw and came up short.

So, not 100% the play call, except that it wasn't called as a run, as it should have been.  Zach gets some blame for the choice, but still, this was a moment for a heavy set and BO20

Quote from: ModAdmin on November 19, 2024, 06:40:54 AMThe only weakness on the D is he 3 man front as I see it.  Far too often Arbuckle had way too much time to throw the ball.  Willie was great but Garbutt, Fox and Thomas struggled.

3 man front worked good for the last 2/3 of the season and will continue to be an important part of our D.  We have had the best D for years.  Gotta mix it up but it's not going anywhere and is a league wide trend.

Kinda miss the 4 man front when we had killer D ends with Willie and Jeffcoat, we could have had nobody in the secondary it didn't matter as those guys crushed Qb's. I m not a big fan of the rush 3 drop 9 and hope the offense can't complete a pass. We just saw a backup Qb handle that defensive set no problem as he had no pressure on him. Remember playing the Ticats in the GC and how much pressure we got on Dane Evans, that was insane, and it forced mistakes. I get why we don't rush 4--we can't get enough pressure so we revert back to the drop back 9 and hope we can make some plays. I still think we need to mix it up and get pressure from time to time

Quote from: theaardvark on November 18, 2024, 10:07:08 PMBut until your opponent is decided and you KNOW who and what you are up against, any plans you make are out the door.  The week of the Grey Gup is the most important week of game planning and practice there is in the CFL.  Thinking you can skate in based on your season's accomplishments, well, I think we saw a little of that on Sunday. 

You can make calculated guesses who your next WDF and GC opponent will be.  And they will be right most of the time.  You can make a plan for the possibilities, putting as much effort into each as the odds dictate.  And you can modify your predictions as the season progresses.

For example, in 2021 it would have been a fair bet to assume we'd face HAM in the GC.

'22 would have been hard to guess TOR, though, as they were pretty stinky for a few years.  Same with '23.

But '24 you could bet the farm we'd be facing either TOR or MTL.

WDF since '21 it was clear we'll be facing BC or SSK.

You can't save it all until GC week where everybody is flown out of town like 5 days ahead of time.  Everybody is partying and doing awards shows and soaking it up.  You can't be doing your biggest brain work during that time, and even if you do, you don't have time to transfer that info effectively into the players.

I bet you anything both MTL and TOR braintrust (HC, coords) were working on plans and plays to beat the Bombers all season long (with less work on BC/SSK).

If I was running the ship, that's what I'd be doing.  I'd have turned the team into a TOR & MTL killer.

Quote from: theaardvark on November 18, 2024, 10:07:08 PMKW has his work cut out for him, and MOS has a tough decision to make about Buck.  I don't think we have an in house replacement at OC, but I bet there are those that would welcome an offer if we demote/dismiss Buck.  Which we definitely need to do. 

You don't fire an OC who continually gets you to the top of the West and wins you WDFs.  You just don't.  Such an OC is a coveted, talented OC.

Yes, Buck's plan stunk in the '24 GC, and probably '22 and '23 as well.  But that's just the final game.  Those are the hardest ones to win.

Everyone is upset, but canning Buck is a dumb idea, and he will instantly be snapped up by another team.

If you want to put the ultimate blame on someone, I'd aim at MOS.  He's simply not doing enough to incentivize his braintrust to plan enough to win cups.  And almost no one will say we should fire MOS...

I also want to re-point out the really poor performance of the REC corps in this game.  Buck didn't have the best ideas, but all the dropsies limit your chances at success.  It was the worst showing by them in any GC to date.

Quote from: The Zipp on November 18, 2024, 11:53:45 PMrookie special teams coach had a punt block dialled up but players don't know the rules

There was also a ton of bad luck, and almost all of it hit us, not TOR.  So many little "inches" things going their way, not ours.  We get rays of hope, then TOR gets the luck/calls.

It seemed like every time something nice happened for us, refs/command called it back or we took a penalty.  It was very depressing.

Quote from: dd on November 19, 2024, 05:47:07 PMOur downfall in the big game was failing to use what got us there--the run game, effectively. 8 carries for our MOP, that's beyond ridiculous. Inexplainable, but more importantly inexcusable. This proves beyond a shadow of a doubt, we need someone else who understands developing an effective offensive game plan better.

How many series did we get in total?  Much more than 8?  How many went 2 & out, or one 1st down then punt?

It's hard to get Brady more touches when we ran him a lot on 1st and in 80% of them he gets stuffed... then we short pass on 2nd and TOR is tight and knocks the ball out because our RECs aren't doing their job.  That was the entire night.

People forget that the Brady touches are a function of getting many sustained drives.  If you don't have that, you don't hand off to him.

Look at how TOR tried Carey on 1st for a while and then went away from it when we proved we'd stuff him nearly every time?  Their RBs best work was on passes and 2nd down draws: that's where their stats came from.  That's the type of stuff we should have been doing.

Quote from: Jesse on November 19, 2024, 03:48:53 PMMan, when Terry Wilson went in, in scoring range, and we have him attempt 4 straight passes?

The Wilson sequence was what lost the game for us.  We score there and we probably win.  Instead we squander the opportunity and the game snowballed into hopelessness.  That was the point where all morale and momentum was lost.

Quote from: ModAdmin on November 19, 2024, 06:40:54 AMThe only weakness on the D is he 3 man front as I see it.  Far too often Arbuckle had way too much time to throw the ball.  Willie was great but Garbutt, Fox and Thomas struggled.

The 3 man front is ok, but you have to mix in a few blitzes and hidden pass rushers every 2-3 snaps.

It was so clear and obvious Dinwiddie had Arbuckle prepared to be patient and wait because they knew we'd have a useless 3 man rush.  It's a miracle Willie & Garbutt managed to get in there sometimes given the circumstances.

We could have adjusted when Arbuckle proved he could wait it out and make a good read, but we didn't.  Just a few more random 4-man and blitzes might have made the difference.

Quote from: theaardvark on November 19, 2024, 07:24:54 PMDid Buck's head get screwed up by Pinball signing Bryan Scott?  Did he make some unnecessary and upsetting changes in his playbook due to the potential of "espionage"?

Maybe.  I'm a big believer in the shady "book stealing" theory.  We should 100% retaliate if this occurs in the future.  They sign Scott, we pick X player from their O who was cut or PR and sign him to a 1 week contract too.  Just to get them thinking...

We should also not keep a QB around learning the book to any significant degree and then cut him late in the season.  We should put him on the 1GIR and cut him after the cup.  What does cutting him 3-4 weeks ago save us on the SMS?  Insignificant.

Dinwiddie strikes me as severely cut-throat who will use any ploy or trick to gain an advantage... even ones that many would call shady or underhanded, or maybe even downright banned.

Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on November 19, 2024, 07:46:11 PMThis, I still haven't forgiven Buck for his 2011 loss to the Lions in BC Place, he did nothing in that game.

We lose in '11 and it's the QB's fault, not the OC?
We lose in '24 and it's the OC's fault, not the QB?

Just pointing out the inconsistency with scapegoating Buck.  Buck did get us to 4 straight dances y'all.

Quote from: TecnoGenius on November 20, 2024, 04:19:42 AMWe lose in '11 and it's the QB's fault, not the OC?
We lose in '24 and it's the OC's fault, not the QB?

Just pointing out the inconsistency with scapegoating Buck.  Buck did get us to 4 straight dances y'all.

It's how the forum works.  We fail once and they forget years of success.

I see promise with Buck.

Quote from: Blueforlife on November 20, 2024, 02:54:46 PMIt's how the forum works.  We fail once and they forget years of success.

I see promise with Buck.

Geez. We lost the last 3 Grey Cups in a row. We came out flat footed on offence in all of them. For that matter we didn't look great on offence in the two we won.

While the failures aren't soley his fault, much of it has been. Where was the run game on Sunday?

Quote from: Blueforlife on November 20, 2024, 02:54:46 PMIt's how the forum works.  We fail once and they forget years of success.

I see promise with Buck.

Did you miss the last three Grey Cup games? The offense has been trash in all of them. Someone needs to be held accountable for that - who else besides the OC?

That status quo is clearly not working when it matters most.

Quote from: blue_gold_84 on November 20, 2024, 03:01:27 PMDid you miss the last three Grey Cup games? The offense has been trash in all of them.

That status quo is clearly not working when it matters most.

Failed in the big show yes.  Failed in general no.  I don't mind Buck but don't love his play calling.  With Zach I see consistency in the offensive system critical for one more year.  My hope is we can improve and learn from falling on our face.

Quote from: TecnoGenius on November 20, 2024, 03:41:00 AMYou can make calculated guesses who your next WDF and GC opponent will be.  And they will be right most of the time.  You can make a plan for the possibilities, putting as much effort into each as the odds dictate.  And you can modify your predictions as the season progresses.

For example, in 2021 it would have been a fair bet to assume we'd face HAM in the GC.

'22 would have been hard to guess TOR, though, as they were pretty stinky for a few years.  Same with '23.

But '24 you could bet the farm we'd be facing either TOR or MTL.

WDF since '21 it was clear we'll be facing BC or SSK.

You can't save it all until GC week where everybody is flown out of town like 5 days ahead of time.  Everybody is partying and doing awards shows and soaking it up.  You can't be doing your biggest brain work during that time, and even if you do, you don't have time to transfer that info effectively into the players.

I bet you anything both MTL and TOR braintrust (HC, coords) were working on plans and plays to beat the Bombers all season long (with less work on BC/SSK).

If I was running the ship, that's what I'd be doing.  I'd have turned the team into a TOR & MTL killer.

Maybe that was the problem.  We were planning for BC in the WF and MTL in the GC?

Quote from: Blueforlife on November 20, 2024, 03:03:07 PMFailed in the big show yes.  Failed in general no.  I don't mind Buck but don't love his play calling.  With Zach I see consistency in the offensive critical.

This big show is all that matters, especially when you're the loser in three-in-a-row of said shows.

Quote from: blue_gold_84 on November 20, 2024, 03:03:57 PMThis big show is all that matters, especially when you're the loser in three-in-a-row of said shows.

Agree it's critical but often one builds on success from the past.  We shall see what happens next.

When Wilson goes in, you pound jumbo/BO20.  They expect it, doesn't matter.  Occasionally, if you see the DB's sleeping one play, the next you do the run fake, drop back and hit the open guy over the sleepy DB.

But you RUN THE BALL.  MOP RB and 7 OL and a FB dressed, you RUN THE BALL. 

You don't need a big play, you need ball control, get the lead and to run out the clock.  17-13 going into the 4th.Had them exactly where we wanted them.

Quote from: Blueforlife on November 20, 2024, 03:05:03 PMAgree it's critical but often one builds on success from the past.  We shall see what happens next.

Pierce has been here for 10 years with 4 as OC. How much longer can you wait?

Quote from: Blue In BC on November 20, 2024, 03:09:53 PMPierce has been here for 10 years with 4 as OC. How much longer can you wait?

I am willing to wait for 1 and move on when Zach does as starting QB.

Quote from: Blueforlife on November 20, 2024, 03:10:54 PMI am willing to wait for 1 and move on when Zach does as starting QB.

This is "all in to win" season, GC at PAS.  Not a time for "one more year"...

Quote from: theaardvark on November 20, 2024, 03:03:29 PMMaybe that was the problem.  We were planning for BC in the WF and MTL in the GC?

No I don't think so. There are no secrets at the end of the year. Teams know their strengths and their opponents weaknesses. We didn't take advantage of that information with the run game in particular. We won or lost several games this year but small margins. In each, game plan was a factor, preparation and execution.  There were lots of comments about that but there was relief when we squeaked through week to week.

Bombers were last in scoring in 2024 after several years finishing as the highest scoring team. Obviously we had some personnel issues, but clearly we've become very predictable on offence.

Would that game plan have succeeded against another opponent? Bombers win when we use bully ball as a major part of our game plan.

Quote from: theaardvark on November 20, 2024, 03:14:13 PMThis is "all in to win" season, GC at PAS.  Not a time for "one more year"...

Agree, good debate if Buck or someone else will get us there.  I would bet on Buck doesn't mean  I'm right, we will find out in November the answer.

Quote from: theaardvark on November 20, 2024, 03:14:13 PMThis is "all in to win" season, GC at PAS.  Not a time for "one more year"...

I disagree about thoughts of all in just because the game is in Winnipeg. Teams want to win every year. Winning at home is nice but the goal is winning regardless. Was their any less emphasis on winning this year?

It will be interesting to see how much the Lions went over the cap in an all in year concept. The team that spent the most money isn't guaranteed winning.

Bombers were slightly over last year and IIRC the Als didn't exceed the cap did they?

Quote from: Blueforlife on November 20, 2024, 03:35:04 PMAgree, good debate if Buck or someone else will get us there.  I would bet on Buck doesn't mean  I'm right, we will find out in November the answer.

I truly think we do not see November with Buck.

Reading the media coverage of the post game comments from the players, and the lack of Buck being there, speaks volumes.  There is no doubt in my mind that "Buck has lost the room".  Not sure what you can say to the MOP to justify 11 carries in the most important game of the year, especially when your QB1 is unable to grip the ball to throw it.

This is not longer a debate about whether to stick with Buck. It has rapidly become a discussion about who replaces him.

Quote from: theaardvark on November 20, 2024, 03:56:02 PMI truly think we do not see November with Buck.

Reading the media coverage of the post game comments from the players, and the lack of Buck being there, speaks volumes.  There is no doubt in my mind that "Buck has lost the room".  Not sure what you can say to the MOP to justify 11 carries in the most important game of the year, especially when your QB1 is unable to grip the ball to throw it.

This is not longer a debate about whether to stick with Buck. It has rapidly become a discussion about who replaces him.

It's unfortunate because he has had great success in the past. Time has passed him by it appears. There is no clear replacement that comes to mind and that is an issue. I suggested a 2nd set of eyes in a consultant role. That might be an option but no one comes to mind for that either.

At some point it's time to move on even if it's a temporary downgrade. We spend a ton of money on our offence, possibly the most we've ever spent. Yes we lost some key players early but at the end of the season we were generally fairly healthy on offence.

Quote from: theaardvark on November 20, 2024, 03:56:02 PMI truly think we do not see November with Buck.

Eh, it wouldn't surprise anyone if that were to happen. My concern is him putting together yet another lousy gameplan. On home field. And the Bombers lose. Again.

I couldn't stomach another GC loss because of a neutered and unprepared offensive showing. Much less one at PAS.

Quote from: Blue In BC on November 20, 2024, 04:03:52 PMIt's unfortunate because he has had great success in the past. Time has passed him by it appears. There is no clear replacement that comes to mind and that is an issue. I suggested a 2nd set of eyes in a consultant role. That might be an option but no one comes to mind for that either.

At some point it's time to move on even if it's a temporary downgrade. We spend a ton of money on our offence, possibly the most we've ever spent. Yes we lost some key players early but at the end of the season we were generally fairly healthy on offence.

We spent disproportionately on O talent these past few years, with declining returns.

Not sure that time has passed Buck by, more like it has caught up with him.  He rode the Lapo playbook as long as he could, and his playbook and gameplans have succeeded only when the players played above their heads and made Buck look good.  And with the talent he has been presented, that was the case most of the time.

His complete failure to adjust in game has been tragic, especially these past three championship games.  The moment a wrench gets tossed into the works, chaos.  Zach's injury should have meant buckling down and getting simple, and using the best weapon you have.  Instead, it was interception alley.  17-13 when the injury happened, so lets hand them the ball over and over.

Quote from: theaardvark on November 20, 2024, 04:40:38 PMWe spent disproportionately on O talent these past few years, with declining returns.

Not sure that time has passed Buck by, more like it has caught up with him.  He rode the Lapo playbook as long as he could, and his playbook and gameplans have succeeded only when the players played above their heads and made Buck look good.  And with the talent he has been presented, that was the case most of the time.

His complete failure to adjust in game has been tragic, especially these past three championship games.  The moment a wrench gets tossed into the works, chaos.  Zach's injury should have meant buckling down and getting simple, and using the best weapon you have.  Instead, it was interception alley.  17-13 when the injury happened, so lets hand them the ball over and over.

Offences usually see the most money spent by nature of QB, OL and receivers as the big $$ earners. We sure didn't get our bang for the money.

Side note. 

Did Mace cost the Blue Bombers the GC?

If Buck gets the Rider HC job, do we have a different 2024?

Did Buck not getting the Riders job affect his 2024?  His game plan obviously changed, was he swinging for the fences to prove himself?

Quote from: theaardvark on November 20, 2024, 05:04:38 PMSide note. 

Did Mace cost the Blue Bombers the GC?

If Buck gets the Rider HC job, do we have a different 2024?

Did Buck not getting the Riders job affect his 2024?  His game plan obviously changed, was he swinging for the fences to prove himself?

An interesting question but one that can't be answered. My guess is no but it's based on not knowing who the replacement might have been.

Could just as easily suggest Buck as HC in Regina beats us during the season and / or in the WDF.

It's essentially the same question today if he moves to BC or elsewhere. Who are our potential replacement candidates if we choose to move on or he does.

"Buck got us to the Grey Cup."


It was not the Buck, Zach, and the offence that got the team to the championship this year.

The team was at or near the bottom on offence. a couple of good games. and Brady.

league best defence, got the team to the Grey Cup.

not all on Buck though.

putting in a qb who cant hold the ball, and calling long passes is hard to grasp.

O'Shea could have overridden that. why didnt he?

The old adage rings true: defense wins championships.

Quote from: blue_gold_84 on November 20, 2024, 05:37:45 PMThe old adage rings true: defense wins championships.

Except we had the best one in 2024 and it didn't.

Pierce going to the Lions as HC makes total sense given his playing history there, him knowing the franchise and city and their fan base knowing him and the success he's had here. I'd say he'd be the front runner there.

Quote from: Blue In BC on November 20, 2024, 05:43:52 PMExcept we had the best one in 2024 and it didn't.

I meant on any given Grey Cup Sunday, the best defense wins. This past Sunday was no exception.

The Argonauts defense feasted on a poorly prepared offense.

Quote from: blue_gold_84 on November 20, 2024, 05:52:34 PMI meant on any given Grey Cup Sunday, the best defense wins. This past Sunday was no exception.

The Argonauts defense feasted on a poorly prepared offense.

Fair. The advantage always goes to a well prepared talented offence that executes. That wasn't us in the Grey Cup this year.

Quote from: Blue In BC on November 20, 2024, 05:43:52 PMExcept we had the best one in 2024 and it didn't.

can't win if your offence cant score,  now matter how good the D is. eventually even a lame offence like the Argos had, is going to score.


Although I  thought a few times during games this season "we need a pick six to win this game"

Quote from: markf on November 20, 2024, 08:37:02 PMcan't win if your offence cant score,  now matter how good the D is. eventually even a lame offence like the Argos had, is going to score.


Although I  thought a few times during games this season "we need a pick six to win this game"

Of course. Football takes all 3 facets to play well. A superior offence or defence gives you an advantage but the other part of the team has to not be a liability.

New poster on this forum.

Another disappointing end to the year.

Have been thinking about who to blame for the GC losses the last 3 years. I know by the posts alot of people are blaming Buck. I am not here to suggest that he hasn't played a role in those losses but then I also think that all the coaches and players do as well.

Last year our D didn't stop Montreal in the last minute, the year before a blocked field goal (although I don't think it would have been good even if not blocked) those are the plays that stand out but it is a 60 minute game and coaches have game plans and players have to execute those plays. We haven't done that in 3 years unfortunately.

I'm not ready to throw any of our coaches under the bus yet even if I don't like their calls ie. 3 man fronts on D and not giving Brady more running plays especially when Wilson went in. However on that note the pass play to Lawler in the end zone was a good call because Lawler was open and it would have been a TD had the pass been better - to me that's execution not a bad play call.

I know some will say Wilson hadn't thrown a pass all year and that is a valid point but I do agree with O'Shea that if they are on the roster they are there because the coaches believe these players can help the team win.

In my opinion I don't believe a coaching change at OC at this time is the way to go but I trust those in charge to make that decision.

Can't wait for next season already.

Quote from: TrueBlue4 on November 20, 2024, 10:19:48 PMNew poster on this forum.

Another disappointing end to the year.

Have been thinking about who to blame for the GC losses the last 3 years. I know by the posts alot of people are blaming Buck. I am not here to suggest that he hasn't played a role in those losses but then I also think that all the coaches and players do as well.

Last year our D didn't stop Montreal in the last minute, the year before a blocked field goal (although I don't think it would have been good even if not blocked) those are the plays that stand out but it is a 60 minute game and coaches have game plans and players have to execute those plays. We haven't done that in 3 years unfortunately.

I'm not ready to throw any of our coaches under the bus yet even if I don't like their calls ie. 3 man fronts on D and not giving Brady more running plays especially when Wilson went in. However on that note the pass play to Lawler in the end zone was a good call because Lawler was open and it would have been a TD had the pass been better - to me that's execution not a bad play call.

I know some will say Wilson hadn't thrown a pass all year and that is a valid point but I do agree with O'Shea that if they are on the roster they are there because the coaches believe these players can help the team win.

In my opinion I don't believe a coaching change at OC at this time is the way to go but I trust those in charge to make that decision.

Can't wait for next season already.

Welcome. You're right that the fault isn't only on Buck. Everything from recruitment not finding better DL and a receiver that would do better than Wheatfall in 2024. I think Wheatfall might succeed next year, but he as a liability for most of this season.

Same issue with our returner not able or willing to retain Grant. That still boggles the mind why or how that happened.

There were games where we had big leads and Wilson should have had some opportunity to play. He may have looked horrible or not but it would have been a learning experience.

We beat Edmonton 55 - 27 in September. That would have been a good time to let him play. Generally on O'Shea teams the # 2 rarely sees the field regardless of game situation.

Ya, there's enough blame to go around for everyone - not re-signing Grant as our kick returner, something happened that lead to Bailey being let go and yet we figured Wheatfall was a replacement??, players playing hurt- Demski, then Collaros--the game was very close before he got hurt, brutal offensive game plan/not using Brady to carry the rock more,and forcing Collaros to throw the ball when he couldn't grip it--that one I can't get over the most. Stupidest thing we could have ever done, trumps all other screwups.

We never really recovered from losing Schoen to injury. Yes, Wilson played decent, but not Schoen decent, and Demski and Woli not there, recieving corps was severely depleted yet we chose to pass vs run with the #1 RD in the league. I just don't get it. Oh well, turn the page

Interesting comment on Lionbackers. It's better to move on 1 year too soon than one year too late. It's valid but never that simple in the grand scheme of things.

so who are we moving from 1 year too soon and who are we replacing him with??

Quote from: TecnoGenius on November 20, 2024, 03:54:27 AMEveryone is upset ...

I'm not upset. 5 Grey Cup appearances in a row with a couple of wins will do that for you.

I am going to predict that Buck Pierce will be the next HC for the Lions.

A comment from Doman about firing Campbell that should be heard when hard decisions are being made about coaches or players.

It's not a friend decision. It's a business decision.

I think it's appropriate to mention that as we consider some of the changes we're discussing now as we enter the off season.

Quote from: ModAdmin on November 21, 2024, 06:57:25 AMI am going to predict that Buck Pierce will be the next HC for the Lions.

I will second this. I think he would actually fit well there.

Quote from: ModAdmin on November 21, 2024, 06:57:25 AMI am going to predict that Buck Pierce will be the next HC for the Lions.

Watch the video, they say they will be interviewing many candidates some currently in the CFL, some not, zero indication they have anyone specific in mind.  I get the sense from their wording, Doman made the decision to move on from Campbell.

Quote from: ModAdmin on November 21, 2024, 06:57:25 AMI am going to predict that Buck Pierce will be the next HC for the Lions.

I agree, and hopefully Lapo comes back and gets our offense back to where it was

Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on November 21, 2024, 06:28:11 PMWatch the video, they say they will be interviewing many candidates some currently in the CFL, some not, zero indication they have anyone specific in mind.  I get the sense from their wording, Doman made the decision to move on from Campbell.

In BC there is a fair bit of dicsussion/rumour that Pierce, at the very least, is being considered.  Agree is would make sense to interview a few candidates.

There are lots of potential coaching staff across the CFL moving to new opportunities. I'm not sure who ends up where or when.

The thing is that every team will want to get those people in place as we head towards free agency.

Bombers have 3 different positions that might force change. At the very least I hope we have a shopping list of potential replacement candidates.

Quote from: Blue In BC on November 22, 2024, 02:06:03 PMBombers have 3 different positions that might force change. At the very least I hope we have a shopping list of potential replacement candidates.

I too wonder about the shopping list. Last time we didn't hire from within for a coordinator job was 9 years ago. Hall and Lapo hired the same year although you can argue the Bombers considered LaPo part of the family so does he count?

Past due for Walters to make an appearance and provide an update on his plans for the off-season, it's been awhile.

Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on November 22, 2024, 03:54:56 PMPast due for Walters to make an appearance and provide an update on his plans for the off-season, it's been awhile.

Although not Walters, Mike O'Shea is holding his end of the season media conference as we speak.

Quote from: ModAdmin on November 22, 2024, 04:57:31 PMAlthough not Walters, Mike O'Shea is holding his end of the season media conference as we speak.

Link?

Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on November 22, 2024, 05:12:47 PMLink?

Quote from: dd on November 21, 2024, 11:40:53 PMI agree, and hopefully Lapo comes back and gets our offense back to where it was

I hope you're joking. How soon people forget. Under Pierce we had the highest scoring offence for two years in a row, Collaros has had the best years of his career (late into his career) and our play calling has been way better. Does everyone forget Lapo and his wideout plays or constant passes short of the first down markers? Remember people screaming that his offence with Nichols went like 10 games without passing for 200 yards?

Lapo is no offensive genius. Our offence has been way better with Buck. Please tell me how Lapos offence was better aside from the fact he left on a high note this time around? If Lapo is such a guru then why hasn't he joined another team as an OC?

Ya. Sunday didn't work out but we have the best coaching staff in the league from top. We lost to a team that had already beaten us twice this year. Every other team would love to be us with 5 straight GC trips.

Quote from: EastSideRocks on November 22, 2024, 07:41:01 PMYa. Sunday didn't work out...

Just like the previous two years. And the offense was abysmal in all three games going back to GC109. At no point has this offense managed to show up in the big game when it matters most.

Who should be held responsible for those three failures if not the OC?

Quote from: blue_gold_84 on November 22, 2024, 07:57:56 PMJust like the previous two years. And the offense was abysmal in all three games going back to GC109. At no point has this offense managed to show up in the big game when it matters most.

Who should be held responsible for those three failures if not the OC?

Rarely is the championship game an offensive display. Not in the Super Bowl, not in the GC. Even people complain that most of Brady's championships were because of the defense.

In the previous two, the other teams offensives weren't lights out... they beat us by a couple points. GC is often a cold weather game and that was the case against two years ago and last year. Also, can't blame Buck for Zach's bad int last year. People complained Buck was too conservative in his play calling last GC against Mtl.

Sunday was an opportunity for Zach to shoot the lights out in a dome, against the best DL and LB core in the league. That didn't happen. Oshea said they had almost 18 run plays called but had to adjust because of what the defense was giving them.

I just want you to tell me how Lapo would be better? Do you not remember his offense? The constant passes short of the first down markers?

If Buck is constantly at fault, maybe consider that we wouldn't be in all these GCs without him. All the great western final games and regular season game plans that have put us in those positions, to go to the GC.

I just think it's ridiculous that people want to chase him out of town and bring in Lapo. We'd be worse off without him. We're the envy of the league in what we've accomplished these past few years. Ya, right games the past two years against very hot teams didn't go our way. Oh well.

Quote from: EastSideRocks on November 22, 2024, 08:41:21 PMRarely is the championship game an offensive display. Not in the Super Bowl, not in the GC. Even people complain that most of Brady's championships were because of the defense. Honestly, players need to play.

In the previous two, the other teams offensives weren't lights out... they beat us by a couple points. GC is often a cold weather game and that was the case against two years ago and last year. Also, can't blame Buck for Zach's bad int last year. People complained Buck was too conservative in his play calling last GC against Mtl.

Sunday was an opportunity for Zach to shoot the lights out in a dome, against the best DL and LB core in the league. That didn't happen. Oshea said they had almost 18 run plays called but had to adjust because of what the defense was giving them.

I just want you to tell me how Lapo would be better? Do you not remember his offense? The constant passes short of the first down markers?

Show me where I said I wanted LaPolice to replace Pierce.

It's concerning when a team has an offense that regularly dismantles opposing defenses but then can't show up on the biggest stage and arguably the most important game of the season.

Quote from: blue_gold_84 on November 22, 2024, 08:45:27 PMShow me where I said I wanted LaPolice to replace Pierce.

It's concerning when a team has an offense that regularly dismantles opposing defenses but then can't show up on the biggest stage and arguably the most important game of the season.

My apologies if you didn't say that. I'll throw that out to all the others who have said it.

He's part of the offensive so he bears some responsibility, but what about the players? Seems that everyone is just blaming Buck and not the players for their execution. Zach bad decisions? Not being open with the coaches about how hurt he was? Short a man on defense, Lucky fumble? Easy to broadly blame playcalling when we have no clue what the defense was giving us, or consider all the other mistakes that added up to result in the loss. I'm quiet on this form, but given the flack Buck is taking, why wouldn't he want to leave?

Coach O'Shea made it abundantly clear that Buck Pierce would be back if he does not accept an offer from another team.

I sure hope Buck is back.  Finish the job!

I'm with you EastSideRocks.  Nice to hear your opinion.

Buck can get it done.  Lapo is good but I don't think the time is right.  Would take him a few seasons (or most OCs) to settle in and build their way.  We already have a way and it should work one more time at least ;).

An interesting debate and lots of time for this to play out.  Retool over rebuild imo.

Quote from: EastSideRocks on November 22, 2024, 08:56:21 PMMy apologies if you didn't say that. I'll throw that out to all the others who have said it.

He's part of the offensive so he bears some responsibility, but what about the players? Seems that everyone is just blaming Buck and not the players for their execution. Zach bad decisions? Not being open with the coaches about how hurt he was? Short a man on defense, Lucky fumble? Easy to broadly blame playcalling when we have no clue what the defense was giving us, or consider all the other mistakes that added up to result in the loss. I'm quiet on this form, but given the flack Buck is taking, why wouldn't he want to leave?

I'll pack his bag.

i can't believe people want to see a repeat of what we saw on Sunday and the previous 2 grey cups, inept offense. When you instruct your Qb who's told you he can't grip the ball, the throw the ball, 4 times in a row to get 4 picks and seal the game for them, I don't want any part of that, ever again. It was beyond stupid.

Quote from: dd on November 23, 2024, 01:27:42 AMi can't believe people want to see a repeat of what we saw on Sunday and the previous 2 grey cups, inept offense. When you instruct your Qb who's told you he can't grip the ball, the throw the ball, 4 times in a row to get 4 picks and seal the game for them, I don't want any part of that, ever again. It was beyond stupid.

Nobody wants that.  One bad game, 5 years of mostly excellent.  The cup loses are difficult to take with some misteps along the way to be sure.  We have some of the best players, coaches and management in the league.  We can find a way.  I'm betting on retool.  Like Neil said I might not retire but I might retread.

Two choices. Play Zack with a messed up finger (and call bombs) or put in the rookie (no meanginful reps in the regular season). Both of these things fall on the coaching staff.

Okay. A few things.

One: Buck has been the best offensive coordinator in the CFL for the last bunch of years and it's not even close.

Two: Am I the only one that didn't mind the play calling in the Grey Cup? I get that hindsight is 20/20 but Wilson in the game and you hand off up the middle, do you know what likely happens? A one yard gain and you put Wilson in 2nd and 9. That doesn't put him in the best situation. I like that we threw the ball. I also liked the game plan overall. Collaros had been slinging it and you're inside the dome. Air it out. It's too bad we lost but Buck's got my respect. We could have handed it off 25 times and still lost and likely would have. We weren't playing conservative which was the criticism in prior Cups.

Side note: why does it seem the people most outraged by the coaching and play calling generally can't spell two words correctly consecutively or use a single punctuation mark correctly?

Be frustrated and be upset if that's how you feel but don't get it twisted. Whoever we eventually have to replace Buck with is unlikely to be as good. 

Quote from: Sir Blue and Gold on November 23, 2024, 01:26:08 PMOkay. A few things.

One: Buck has been the best offensive coordinator in the CFL for the last bunch of years and it's not even close.

Two: Am I the only one that didn't mind the play calling in the Grey Cup? I get that hindsight is 20/20 but Wilson in the game and you hand off up the middle, do you know what likely happens? A one yard gain and you put Wilson in 2nd and 9. That doesn't put him in the best situation. I like that we threw the ball. I also liked the game plan overall. Collaros had been slinging it and you're inside the dome. Air it out. It's too bad we lost but Buck's got my respect. We could have handed it off 25 times and still lost and likely would have. We weren't playing conservative which was the criticism in prior Cups.

Side note: why does it seem the people most outraged by the coaching and play calling generally can't spell two words correctly consecutively or use a single punctuation mark correctly?

Be frustrated and be upset if that's how you feel but don't get it twisted. Whoever we eventually have to replace Buck with is unlikely to be as good. 

The issue is that we're not speaking about the play calling problem in one game. Yes our offense has been very good for many years and led the CFL in scoring.

We win when we use a balanced attack and that's not what we saw in the Grey Cup. I liked that we aired it out early to force the LB's out of the box. That should have allowed more positive results in the run game.

If our deep passing game had more success earlier ( as in the WDF ) we might have seen a different game.

I find that in many games we become very predictable and end up getting out coached. That happened in the 2022 and 2023 Grey Cup games as well.

In 2024 we had significant difficulty with Eastern teams and lots of low scoring games. Most of our losses were to Eastern teams.

Wheatfall might become a good receiver going forward but he was never much part in the game planning. The became a liability especially once Demski was nicked and limited. Geez, he was covered by McMannis often. That meant Lawler or Wilson were double covered too much.

We needed to adjust and do what we do when we succeed: run the ball.

I guess we'll see if we lose Pierce to the Lions and are forced to make a change.

The team has had great success, but part of that that is possibly overlooked is the "strength of schedule"

The west has not been a powerhouse during this run of Bomber success.

Saskatchewan under Dickensen, Elks under C. Jones, Calgary with quarterback problems,  has not been great.

Not saying the team has not been very good, but level of opposition has not been great.


just wondering, during one of the Grey Cup losses did the Bombers pull Zach  when in the red zone and put in Prukop who threw an int, or am I "misremembering" ?

also.... I am a fan of Mike O'Shea, but one thing I find annoying...once in a while, it's ok to let down the curtain and admit mistakes were made. 

I have heard Belichick after a loss say "I have to coach  better"

We were 6th in net offence & number of offensive plays.
We were 7th in points scored & TD's.

Buck was a bottom half of the league OC this year. 

Quote from: TBURGESS on November 23, 2024, 03:27:25 PMWe were 6th in net offence & number of offensive plays.
We were 7th in points scored & TD's.

Buck was a bottom half of the league OC this year.

The offense was, yes. But it's more nuanced than that and you know it. You cannot rate coaches strictly on the output of the unit they coach on a yearly basis. If you do, you'd have to explain how he went from the best to the bottom half as a coach in one off season. There's more to it.

we never replaced schoen when he went down, it was huge void filled by rookies, so we lost a 1000 yd reciever and filled it with a couple of 400 yd recievers....you need your big producer in your lineup as he creates opportunities for lawler and demski, and we didn't have him. We had kenny and Demski and wilson, who slowly developed over the season. You add a Schoen calibre reciever, our offense changes instantly and dramatically

Quote from: markf on November 23, 2024, 03:09:46 PMThe team has had great success, but part of that that is possibly overlooked is the "strength of schedule"

The west has not been a powerhouse during this run of Bomber success.

Saskatchewan under Dickensen, Elks under C. Jones, Calgary with quarterback problems,  has not been great.

Not saying the team has not been very good, but level of opposition has not been great.


just wondering, during one of the Grey Cup losses did the Bombers pull Zach  when in the red zone and put in Prukop who threw an int, or am I "misremembering" ?

also.... I am a fan of Mike O'Shea, but one thing I find annoying...once in a while, it's ok to let down the curtain and admit mistakes were made. 

I have heard Belichick after a loss say "I have to coach  better"

Watch the presser above, O'Sheas points out many of the mistakes he made during the game. Getting caught a defender short in the redzone is unforgiveable.

Someone, probably Buck, should have reeled in this idea that we throw to Lawler if he's open or not, no matter what. Lapo definitely would have. 15 ints on 17 tds does not cut it, in fact it's embarrassing. As Zach ages he needs to be MORE careful with the ball. I don't think he realizes that his accuracy is not what it was.

Quote from: Waffler on November 23, 2024, 04:55:34 PMSomeone, probably Buck, should have reeled in this idea that we throw to Lawler if he's open or not, no matter what. Lapo definitely would have. 15 ints on 17 tds does not cut it, in fact it's embarrassing. As Zach ages he needs to be MORE careful with the ball. I don't think he realizes that his accuracy is not what it was.

I think it's Zach's idea to use Lawler in desperation mode as a last hope, instead of throwing the ball away which was Matt Nichols' out.

Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on November 23, 2024, 04:45:57 PMWatch the presser above, O'Sheas points out many of the mistakes he made during the game. Getting caught a defender short in the redzone is unforgiveable.

ok.... read Hamilton's article in the Free Press. He articulates it much better than I can.


https://www.winnipegfreepress.com/breakingnews/2024/11/22/loyal-and-stubborn-to-the-end

Just about to post that link myself. Jeff Hamilton really rips into him. Surprisingly so.

Farhan Lalji - @FarhanLaljiTSN
#BCLions have asked for permission to interview #Riders OC Marc Mueller for their HC position. BC is casting a wide net.
#Bombers have asked for permission to speak to Lions OC Jordan Maksymic for their OC position, in the event they lose Buck Pierce to a HC job.

Quote from: TBURGESS on November 23, 2024, 03:27:25 PMWe were 6th in net offence & number of offensive plays.
We were 7th in points scored & TD's.

Buck was a bottom half of the league OC this year.

I wonder why then Buck is being interviewed for head coach positions by individuals that are more football minds than most of us?

Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on November 23, 2024, 04:45:57 PMWatch the presser above, O'Sheas points out many of the mistakes he made during the game. Getting caught a defender short in the redzone is unforgiveable.

It's forgivable when you're a 107-69 head coach who has had the sustained success he has. Very few in either football league can do what O'Shea has.

Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on November 23, 2024, 04:45:57 PMWatch the presser above, O'Sheas points out many of the mistakes he made during the game. Getting caught a defender short in the redzone is unforgiveable.

Being short a defender in the red zone is beyond unforgivable, someone's head should roll. This isn't youth league football. It clearly demonstrates our heads were not in the game. Unbelievable actually

Like it or not, Mike O'Shea is never going to throw his players or coaches under the bus and publicly blame them.  His private meetings with them may differ but he is prepared to take the main flack on poor play.  At worst, when referring to his players, he will say "We have to play better" but that is likely all you will get. It may be frustrating to fans but that is why his players respect him.

Quote from: dd on November 24, 2024, 02:27:35 AMBeing short a defender in the red zone is beyond unforgivable, someone's head should roll. This isn't youth league football. It clearly demonstrates our heads were not in the game. Unbelievable actually

Mike Kelly was a moron but at least he had good one liners for people who made comments like this. And he was wrong about a lot but probably not those zingers. You forgot to start your post with, "I've been a season ticket holder for 5482 billion minutes".

Quote from: dd on November 24, 2024, 02:27:35 AMBeing short a defender in the red zone is beyond unforgivable, someone's head should roll. This isn't youth league football. It clearly demonstrates our heads were not in the game. Unbelievable actually

These defensive breakdowns only seems to happen to the secondary in Grey Cups, last season it was Bighill chasing an Als receiver all the way to the endzone on a wobbly leg after Parker went down and they had to adjust personnel quickly.  This time it was BA moving up to replace Kramdi, Taylor taking his spot, and "who's on first?" forgetting to sub in for Taylor. "I dunno, no idea".

Quote from: Sir Blue and Gold on November 24, 2024, 04:19:10 AMMike Kelly was a moron but at least he had good one liners for people who made comments like this. And he was wrong about a lot but probably not those zingers. You forgot to start your post with, "I've been a season ticket holder for 5482 billion minutes".

Well then you would have related to Mike Kelly no problem!!

I'll slow it down for you. I m saying, if you can't organize your personnel and count to 12 in the championship game, there s a problem. Don't care who got hurt. A good coach is on top of this, a bad coach isn't, we couldn't field the correct number of players and the players on the field were pissed off, and rightfully so

Quote from: dd on November 24, 2024, 07:30:03 PMWell then you would have related to Mike Kelly no problem!!

I'll slow it down for you. I m saying, if you can't organize your personnel and count to 12 in the championship game, there s a problem. Don't care who got hurt. A good coach is on top of this, a bad coach isn't, we couldn't field the correct number of players and the players on the field were pissed off, and rightfully so

Oooooooh so you're upset about the play. So glad you could clarify.

Quote from: dd on November 24, 2024, 07:30:03 PMWell then you would have related to Mike Kelly no problem!!

I'll slow it down for you. I m saying, if you can't organize your personnel and count to 12 in the championship game, there s a problem. Don't care who got hurt. A good coach is on top of this, a bad coach isn't, we couldn't field the correct number of players and the players on the field were pissed off, and rightfully so

So your saying we should fire Younger? Hes the coach directly in charge of defense. O'Shea will say its on him but thats O'Shea
Unlike Dickenson who throws everone else under the bus.
Teams would be lined up for younger.

Quote from: Pete on November 25, 2024, 02:45:52 PMSo your saying we should fire Younger? Hes the coach directly in charge of defense. O'Shea will say its on him but thats O'Shea
Unlike Dickenson who throws everone else under the bus.
Teams would be lined up for younger.

The blame is on any member of the secondary or coaching staff for not calling a time out once they realized there was a problem, O'shea admitted he noticed the confusion on the field before the snap and should have called one himself even though he was not aware they were short. Richie Hall up in the booth also should have noticed and relayed the message to Younger.

No, rather than burn a timeout, we should have just jumped offside before they snapped the ball and touched an O lineman and kill the play. Smacking the ball out of the centre's hand is going to get you a misconduct penalty, so it cost you yardage, and if the player already had a misconduct penalty, he could have been out of the game.

You've got positional coaches and a D coordinator, you mean to tell me all of them didn't realize we were a man short?? Who are the coaching and what are they watching when they call a play??

Here are my two cents worth.

I believe we can win with the same coaches. I don't believe that they have forgotten how to coach in one year or over the last 3 Grey Cups.

Have they made mistakes? Yes. Have the players made mistakes? Again Yes!

I think that this year specifically has been a very different/difficult year and I think the coaches and players have to be commended given all the injuries and changes to the personnel. I for one after 8 games wasn't even thinking about playoffs let alone being in the Grey Cup.

That doesn't mean that we shouldn't review what happened and how we as a team can be better next year. I believe this coaching staff will do that.

Quote from: TrueBlue4 on November 26, 2024, 01:36:21 AMHere are my two cents worth.

I believe we can win with the same coaches. I don't believe that they have forgotten how to coach in one year or over the last 3 Grey Cups.

Have they made mistakes? Yes. Have the players made mistakes? Again Yes!

I think that this year specifically has been a very different/difficult year and I think the coaches and players have to be commended given all the injuries and changes to the personnel. I for one after 8 games wasn't even thinking about playoffs let alone being in the Grey Cup.

That doesn't mean that we shouldn't review what happened and how we as a team can be better next year. I believe this coaching staff will do that.

Agree.  The coaches we have rate among the best in the league.  Do they make mistakes?  Of course.  At inopportune times?  Of course.  But they have reached the Grey cup 5 years in a row with a combination of good management, good coaching,  good players and clearly a very successful record.

Some people it seems are looking for perfection which is not going to happen. It's unfortunate the few losses they have suffered over the 5 hears involve recent championship games, but that doesn't negate the stellar record they built during that time even if the team is getting older.  If fact, they overcame some serious odds this past season and still made it to the big game.  Mistakes are bound to be made and a few have been at critical times.  It happens.  Doesn't make them or individual coaches or players bad decision makers.

i believe we can win with this coaching staff but they have to look at themselves and see where they can improve my suggestions would be:
1.Offensively we need to ensure our back up qbs get game time. Even when we had Streveler he was never given a proper chance to run the offense. Wilson threw a grand total of one pass in the regular season
2. We need to make better and quicker decisions on players for example the practice roster why did we keep McGhee, Chris smith, Kody case, Murphy if we were not going to play them. Whitehead wasn't great even at full health, but when he was hurt we didn't think we had anyone good enough to come in
3. the coaches need to make decisions more for the team than any individual player, it may not be easy to tell a vet to sit down cause hes hurt or being ineffective but thats what good coaches do

Quote from: ModAdmin on November 19, 2024, 06:40:54 AMThe only weakness on the D is he 3 man front as I see it.  Far too often Arbuckle had way too much time to throw the ball.  Willie was great but Garbutt, Fox and Thomas struggled.

Yes. 

TyJuan Garbutt has the eighth-best pressure percentage in the league at 11.1%. Mostly with a three man rush. He had a really good first year overall.

Is Buck leaving?

Quote from: Pete on November 26, 2024, 02:07:58 AMi believe we can win with this coaching staff but they have to look at themselves and see where they can improve my suggestions would be:
1.Offensively we need to ensure our back up qbs get game time. Even when we had Streveler he was never given a proper chance to run the offense. Wilson threw a grand total of one pass in the regular season
2. We need to make better and quicker decisions on players for example the practice roster why did we keep McGhee, Chris smith, Kody case, Murphy if we were not going to play them. Whitehead wasn't great even at full health, but when he was hurt we didn't think we had anyone good enough to come in
3. the coaches need to make decisions more for the team than any individual player, it may not be easy to tell a vet to sit down cause hes hurt or being ineffective but thats what good coaches do

All generally true, but they can't lose more games than they win to the Als and the Argos during the regular season and think they will magically best them in the playoffs. It's possible, but not probable. It's Sask. level delusion to believe the Bombers are better than teams they usually lose to. 

They can't stand pat as the 3rd best team, they must implement improvements in order to change the score. Chad Kelly will roar back with a vengeance next season, the Bombers have to get better to stay competitive.

Ottawa RedBlacks given permission by the Bombers to interview Richie Hall for vacant DC Position.

Quote from: Ridermania on November 26, 2024, 04:50:03 PMOttawa RedBlacks given permission by the Bombers to interview Richie Hall for vacant DC Position.

Hate to lose him, but this is JY's D now...  have to wonder if Hall is up for a new challenge...

Lots of good things there. Love when Walters does these.

Quote from: Jesse on November 26, 2024, 05:29:13 PMLots of good things there. Love when Walters does these.

Once in a blue moon.

Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on November 26, 2024, 06:18:17 PMOnce in a blue moon.

quality > quantity

https://3downnation.com/2024/11/26/kyle-walters-mike-oshea-unlikely-to-sign-long-term-extensions-with-winnipeg-blue-bombers-this-off-season/

Quote from: Waffler on November 26, 2024, 11:59:10 PMhttps://3downnation.com/2024/11/26/kyle-walters-mike-oshea-unlikely-to-sign-long-term-extensions-with-winnipeg-blue-bombers-this-off-season/

3DN trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill built off one comment, retention is not even a story.

Quote from: Throw Long Bannatyne on November 27, 2024, 12:12:27 AM3DN trying to make a mountain out of a mole hill built off one comment, retention is not even a story.

What a sensationalist title, lol.

Quote from: Jesse on November 27, 2024, 01:08:28 AMWhat a sensationalist title, lol.

Yeah, it's like saying Zach Collaros isn't likely to extend with the Bombers this off-season.

Patience has and Will pay off

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/bombers-gm-roster-third-grey-cup-loss-1.7394071

Quote from: Jesse on November 27, 2024, 01:08:28 AMWhat a sensationalist title, lol.

Straight up clickbait. 3DN is pretty trashy sometimes.

Any of our coaches actually had any interviews with other teams yet? We given permission for 3 of them IIRC and it's possible we may be forced into some changes. I'd expect decisions might be concluded before the end of the year.

Each team needs to hire their new staff when changes are pending. Being able to prep for free agency requires these folks to be in place.

Quote from: Ridermania on November 26, 2024, 04:50:03 PMOttawa RedBlacks given permission by the Bombers to interview Richie Hall for vacant DC Position.

This is actually perfect for everyone.  It lets us shed the Hall $ in the coaches cap, makes it so we never have to "cut" him, and gets him back to full DC level $$.

However, part of the Hall "demotion" I'm sure was him not being super spry anymore.  Not sure he can handle the rigors of being full DC anymore.  The booth stuff is all well and good, but for practices, etc, you need to be trotting around the field a lot.  I think those days are past him.  But maybe he could do it with a bevy of young assistants doing most of the legwork.

No matter what Hall does, he's the man and I wish him all luck and success.  He's the reason our D is so good today and that Younger is ready to take over.

Quote from: Sir Blue and Gold on November 26, 2024, 01:30:16 PMTyJuan Garbutt has the eighth-best pressure percentage in the league at 11.1%. Mostly with a three man rush. He had a really good first year overall.

See my player grading in the GC thread.  Garbutt really stood out in the GC with at least 4 great plays and no negative plays that I could see.  That makes him top tier as far as that GC goes.

We might have a future star on our hands if he can keep improving.  Going into year 3 I guess he's up for FA?  He should be an easy and perfect re-sign: showing promise but not stat-strong enough to be on anyone's radar yet.

Quote from: TrueBlue4 on November 26, 2024, 01:36:21 AMThat doesn't mean that we shouldn't review what happened and how we as a team can be better next year. I believe this coaching staff will do that.

Ya, except we didn't do that after the '22 loss.  And didn't do that after the '23 loss... So inertia says we won't do it after the '24 loss either.

I want to see the WFC braintrust working on TOR-busting as job #1 starting right now.  When the CFL schedules a WPG/TOR rematch for week 1 2025, I want us to come out swinging and clobbering.  Not a repeat of the pitiful WPG/MTL week 1 rematch in '24.  We need to be the ones to set the tone for the year and give everyone notice we mean business.

Every single week of '25 our braintrust needs to be working on ways to beat TOR + MTL.  Because it'll be WPG vs one of those in the '25 GC.

Quote from: TecnoGenius on December 03, 2024, 06:36:18 AMSee my player grading in the GC thread.  Garbutt really stood out in the GC with at least 4 great plays and no negative plays that I could see.  That makes him top tier as far as that GC goes.

We might have a future star on our hands if he can keep improving.  Going into year 3 I guess he's up for FA?  He should be an easy and perfect re-sign: showing promise but not stat-strong enough to be on anyone's radar yet.

Agreed